Greta Thunberg - brave campaigner or deeply disturbed? Part II. - Page 6

cullennz · 6th December 2019, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Cows are responsible for 65% of agricultural emissions.

Which is pretty much all methane, which is a lot different to other emissions, as it dissipates in 9 to 10 years and not 1000s

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

You're requiring her to actually have achieved all of these goals before you will accord her any respect at all. That's your standard, and it is impossible for her to meet.

No, I'm taking the piss. I'm meeting hyperbole with hyperbole. I'm skewering the absurdly lofty goals in Thunberg's latest manifesto. She's not going to earn my respect by accomplishing the impossible (though if she did, she would). She's losing my respect by inches, with things like this absurd manifesto and its impossible goals. We need a hard cap on global emissions within the decade to avert catastrophe, and she's talking about dismantling the entire system of the world on SJW grounds. Which, admittedly, would reduce emissions. But it would probably be a much worse catastrophe for humans. I think I'm justified in a little pointing and laughing.

Quote:

Well, she doesn't. She doesn't even know who you are and has no reason to give two rat's tails what you think of her, or what you want from her.

This is a cop out. She's supposed to be an explainer and persuader. Nobody asked her to pursue this. But we can judge whether she's doing a good job of explaining and persuading. I'd say she owes it to herself and her cause to explain some of this silliness.

Quote:

You keep referring to her "fan club". There is no fan club. She has supporters across the world. Your use of the phrase comes across as derogatory, or at the very least, condescending.

I think when you have supporters who are flying around the world just to meet with you personally, you have a fan club.

Quote:

It's not for me to explain. You're demanding explanations from Greta, not from me. And she won't be able to explain it to you unless you ask her to. Are you going to do that?

No. You're not. Because you don't take her seriously because she hasn't answered the questions that you haven't asked her.

You can explain why you dismiss it.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

Why should I set a standard at all? I'm not the one holding her to standards, you are. She's doing more than I am, and that's good enough for me.

That's a pretty poor standard. We're celebrating Greta Thunberg because she's doing more than arthwollipot?

And is she really doing all that much more than you? Sure, she's inspired protest events around the world, but so what? She's calling for drastic and immediate policy changes. She's calling for a hard cap on global emissions within the next ten years. On those critical points - the points that actually matter - has she really done all that much more than you have?

Apparently she's gotten some Swedes to reduce their air travel. Good on her for that. Of course, now's she's sending them a message that giving up air travel isn't practical, and that the world's governments need to make it easier for people to travel without flying. This seems like a weird and wrong-headed priority at this time. I wonder how many Swedes are going to hear this new message and decide to go back to air travel, pending a policy change from the governments of the world?

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Do you read/see all her posts on Twitter, for example?

My guess?

To prove it can be done.

(I know some stuffs about that line of thought. : ) )

To prove what can be done?

To prove it's possible to fly a sailboat crew across the Atlantic? That is already well known, and irrelevant to Thunberg's stated mission.

To prove it's possible to sail across the Atlantic? That is also already well known. Greta herself did it already, just a couple months ago.

lomiller · 6th December 2019, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That seems kind of defeatist. You can't come up with a compelling argument for anyone's attendance, there?

How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical.

Originally Posted by theprestige

I don't think Greta is very good at communicating the need for action on climate change.

The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively she’s inspired a global “fan club”. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical.

Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies. Given the agenda of the conference, and given the urgency of the work, I'd say that there are several people whose attendance and participation are absolutely critical.

Quote:

The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively she’s inspired a global “fan club”. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread.

Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests. How good a job has she done of persuading people to hard cap emissions before it's too late? How good a job has she done at persuading people to take the kind of drastic, disruptive policy actions she's calling for?

Sizzle is not steak. We need steak. She's preaching a message of desperate need for steak, lots of it, right ******* now. But all she's actually delivered so far is sizzle. Her fan club is celebrating sizzle.

lomiller · 6th December 2019, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies..

Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required?

Originally Posted by theprestige

Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests.

IOW she’s done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders what’s important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of “reasoning”. It’s obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required?

There are several single individuals. Without substantive efforts from the various individuals representing the G20, the conference will probably fail.

Maybe "absolutely requried" isn't the right term. Let's try this: Why is it so important for Greta Thunberg to attend? I think it's vitally important for representatives of the governments of Russia, China, the US, France, etc. to attend. I think it's vitally important for subject matter experts in the fields of climate, economics, health, and politics to attend. I can make arguments for why their attendance is vital, but I hope those arguments are obvious to you already.

What I don't see is an obvious argument for why it's vital for Thunberg to attend. Even Greta herself doesn't seem to have offered anything particularly persuasive. Everybody just seems to take it for granted that it's important for her to be there. That it's important for people to fly around the world to help her sail to COP25, to help her send a message that it's not practical to sail to COP25. How is any of that important?

Quote:

IOW she’s done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders what’s important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of “reasoning”. It’s obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it.

Even the democracies are ignoring it. Global emissions are up. Again. The immediate, drastic policy changes have not been implemented. Again. Students cutting class for Friday street protests doesn't actually reduce emissions. Yours is a cargo-cult view of Greta's activism.

The crisis is looming. If we don't make major changes immediately, we're looking at a catastrophic rise in global temperature, and an attendant catastrophic rise in sea level. You can't measure Greta's success in averting this catastrophe in numbers of schoolchildren participating in street marches.

Let's see what credible national pledges are made to reduce emissions, following COP25. Let's see how many of those pledges actually get followed through on. Then we can perhaps measure the size of Greta's actual contribution to the issue.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

As this thread displays, she is indeed getting to them.

The ridicule that has been thrown her way in this thread is ample evidence. The deniers in this thread are particular apoplectic.

Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"?

I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on.

But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it.

lionking · 6th December 2019, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"?

I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on.

But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it.

If you think people can’t see through you, well I can only conclude you are deluding yourself. From the start of this thread you have shown contempt for what Greta has been doing and contempt for those who support her.

Taking the piss? Chew toy? Pathetic. You can’t handle the attention she is getting and the support she is generating. If she were a middle aged man, you would not be so upset.

Get over it.

Stout · 6th December 2019, 12:00 PM

It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved.

No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle.

Matthew Best · 6th December 2019, 12:55 PM

Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here?

"She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here?

"She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_

In truth, I disagree with Clarkson, who is overreacting (IMO). She's understandably angry. She's not particularly dangerous. I don't know about any sleepless children. The issues she's warning about aren't idiotic, even if some of her actions are kinda silly.

I guess going back to school is generally a good idea, but I have no problem with her trading a few months of schooling for these kinds of life experiences. I bet even Swedish schools aren't that amazing. She can always catch up on her studies later, assmuming she's even falling behind in the first place.

And of course she doesn't need to shut up. She should continue speaking her mind and promoting her causes. She'll get better at it as she matures, I hope.

So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here.

Anyway, as long as she's speaking her mind and promoting her causes, I reserve the right to point and laugh when she says or does something silly. And I reserve the right to point and laugh when her fan club tries overhypes her actual accomplishments into something much more significant, or insists that her presence at this or that event is super important because of reasons.

Matthew Best · 6th December 2019, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here.

Good. I can call him an idiot then.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Good. I can call him an idiot then.

Be my guest.

Matthew Best · 6th December 2019, 01:36 PM

Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot.

theprestige · 6th December 2019, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Matthew Best

Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot.

LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot? I guess it must be easier than addressing any of the points raised or questions asked about Greta Thunberg.

Matthew Best · 6th December 2019, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot?

No, he just appeared.

8enotto · 6th December 2019, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stout

It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved.

No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle.

I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either.
It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it.

All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support.

Stout · 6th December 2019, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by 8enotto

I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either.
It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it.

All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support.

That was posted more in response to the ridiculous notion that were Thunberg a middle aged man, he wouldn't be getting such a rough ride. There was plenty of push back against Gore and I seem to remember some "fake news" widely circulation about the amount of energy his mansion consumed.

Everybody vowed to do better back then. Governments. Companies, Individuals ( to some extent ) and 15 years from now, Thunberg might also be a distant memory.

Global Day of Action.

Samson · 7th December 2019, 03:03 AM

Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years.
It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon.
A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass.

Orphia Nay · 7th December 2019, 04:17 AM

I helped at parkrun, and at a local refugee support fundraising BBQ today.
I walked to both.
I got to meet inspiring new people and gain new knowledge and hope. I got to have conversations in realtime with friends who could answer some of my burning questions. And helped others help others without costing taxpayers anything. And got given some surplus food.
I thought I'd be a bit smug about that in this thread and let you interpret what I'm getting at.

BTW, when this wasn't going on, today I was suffering enormous anguish in trying to help Foolmewunz and family. And receiving supportive messages and gestures from the amazing ISF/JREF community, and also feeling like our forum is emerging from a very dark time.

lionking · 7th December 2019, 05:13 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years.
It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon.
A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass.

Another one who thinks Greta has problems with communication????

quadraginta · 7th December 2019, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

If she had pushed the message that nobody should be flying, and then she flew to COP25 with no explanation, I would have taken issue with that.

If she had flown to COP25, with the explanation that nobody should be flying except out of great need, and there was a great need for her to attend COP25, I would not have taken issue with that explanation.

<snip?

Sure you would have.

In fact, you already did, and continue to, at great length and in great detail.

Why do you say things like this when they are patently untrue?

Stout · 7th December 2019, 02:17 PM

Surprise !!!!

Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing

You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell.

And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart.

Steve · 7th December 2019, 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Stout

Surprise !!!!

Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing

You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell.

And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart.

Why does this surprise you?

Stout · 7th December 2019, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

Why does this surprise you?

There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25....

There's always Glasgow.

8enotto · 7th December 2019, 06:00 PM

Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment.

Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers.

Steve · 7th December 2019, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by Stout

There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25....

There's always Glasgow.

It appears you did not understand my question. I’ll ask again. Why did that surprise you?

lionking · 7th December 2019, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by 8enotto

Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment.

Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers.

Well it’s a good thing that the intention is not to convince the rich. Did you read my list of successful, world changing protests?

And you final paragraph is just ridiculous. Have you noticed parents and even grey heads marching in protest?

It looks you have convinced yourself that you are doing practical things without marching and that nothing else can work. Can you please acknowledge that many other people are doing so as well? Governments, in the main, are not doing what they can. This is the target of these protests.

People who do not accept that Greta is doing constructive things have their heads in the sand in my opinion. And I suspect that it’s only because they don’t like young girls telling obvious truths.

8enotto · 7th December 2019, 06:30 PM

You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly.

That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that.

lionking · 7th December 2019, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by 8enotto

You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly.

That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that.

Well I don’t have to accept nonsense. What about those world changing protests?

Giordano · 7th December 2019, 08:20 PM

I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

cullennz · 7th December 2019, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Giordano

I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?

You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?

Steve · 7th December 2019, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame [normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?

You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?

I disagree.

lionking · 7th December 2019, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?

You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?

So what are you personally doing to get governments to act? Someone is trying. It’s not you.

lionking · 7th December 2019, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Steve

I disagree.

I agree with your disagreement.

Giordano · 7th December 2019, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point.

Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used?

You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?

Really? I think it is pretty clear that a number of posters are hoping in their heart of hearts that Thunberg doesn’t succeed simply because of their spite and dislike of her. Rather than hoping that her approach, together with others, will help move people and governments toward dealing with this crisis.

Just read the thread. These feelings are not well hidden. I am not discussing criticisms of her methods or disappointment but amusement and hope for her failures.

8enotto · 7th December 2019, 08:51 PM

It is not celebrating they are not as effective as hoped. It is knowing they aren't and looking for another method that will get results.

Nobody likes a sinking ship. Attending street dances in guise of climate protests doesn't help much with ponytails or a grey beard.

If big government is slow in action it doesn't mean I have to be. Or anyone else.
It also doesn't mean I have to go full blown eco hippy and live off the grid.

Meanwhile when a good method of forcing gov to get on it without shutting down half of society comes along, I am going to be helping to push it.

Stout · 7th December 2019, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Giordano

I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is:

“Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...”

Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or...

it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...

Ummmmm.....No

My argument has always been that we as a society, as a people should be focusing on reducing our own fossil fuel consumption rather than relying on politicians to do it for us.

I know it's easy to be dazzled by someone like Thunberg who tells you that you don't need to do this, that it's strictly up to the politicians and industry to solve this problem and it provides a convenient justification for continuing to emit GHGs and consume resources all the while saying "not my problem"

So, smart people, tell us how relying on politicians will *this time* is going to prove any more effective in the next 8 years considering how that strategy has failed miserably over the past 15 years.

I suppose you could take solace that, when that ship goes down and the seas close in over your head, you can say you "tried".

You might as well join the Catholic Church.

6th December 2019, 09:05 AM	#205
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,801	Originally Posted by theprestige That seems kind of defeatist. You can't come up with a compelling argument for anyone's attendance, there? How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical. Originally Posted by theprestige I don't think Greta is very good at communicating the need for action on climate change. The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively she’s inspired a global “fan club”. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

6th December 2019, 10:09 AM	#207
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,801	Originally Posted by theprestige Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies.. Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required? Originally Posted by theprestige Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests. IOW she’s done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders what’s important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of “reasoning”. It’s obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

6th December 2019, 10:18 AM	#208
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by lomiller Moving goalposts noted. This has nothing to do with there being a single individual who attendance is absolutely required? There are several single individuals. Without substantive efforts from the various individuals representing the G20, the conference will probably fail. Maybe "absolutely requried" isn't the right term. Let's try this: Why is it so important for Greta Thunberg to attend? I think it's vitally important for representatives of the governments of Russia, China, the US, France, etc. to attend. I think it's vitally important for subject matter experts in the fields of climate, economics, health, and politics to attend. I can make arguments for why their attendance is vital, but I hope those arguments are obvious to you already. What I don't see is an obvious argument for why it's vital for Thunberg to attend. Even Greta herself doesn't seem to have offered anything particularly persuasive. Everybody just seems to take it for granted that it's important for her to be there. That it's important for people to fly around the world to help her sail to COP25, to help her send a message that it's not practical to sail to COP25. How is any of that important? Quote: IOW she’s done a tremendous job of getting people engaged on the issue. People telling their leaders what’s important to them is an important part of democracy. I am not going to bother with your insinuations that democracy itself is pointless because dictators will just ignore it line of “reasoning”. It’s obvious nonsense and I see no value in discussing it. Even the democracies are ignoring it. Global emissions are up. Again. The immediate, drastic policy changes have not been implemented. Again. Students cutting class for Friday street protests doesn't actually reduce emissions. Yours is a cargo-cult view of Greta's activism. The crisis is looming. If we don't make major changes immediately, we're looking at a catastrophic rise in global temperature, and an attendant catastrophic rise in sea level. You can't measure Greta's success in averting this catastrophe in numbers of schoolchildren participating in street marches. Let's see what credible national pledges are made to reduce emissions, following COP25. Let's see how many of those pledges actually get followed through on. Then we can perhaps measure the size of Greta's actual contribution to the issue.
	Last edited by theprestige; 6th December 2019 at 10:26 AM.

6th December 2019, 11:39 AM	#210
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,900	Originally Posted by theprestige Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"? I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on. But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it. If you think people can’t see through you, well I can only conclude you are deluding yourself. From the start of this thread you have shown contempt for what Greta has been doing and contempt for those who support her. Taking the piss? Chew toy? Pathetic. You can’t handle the attention she is getting and the support she is generating. If she were a middle aged man, you would not be so upset. Get over it.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

6th December 2019, 12:00 PM	#211
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339	It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved. No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339

6th December 2019, 02:25 AM	#201
cullennz Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 21,318	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Cows are responsible for 65% of agricultural emissions. Which is pretty much all methane, which is a lot different to other emissions, as it dissipates in 9 to 10 years and not 1000s

6th December 2019, 07:54 AM	#202
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by arthwollipot You're requiring her to actually have achieved all of these goals before you will accord her any respect at all. That's your standard, and it is impossible for her to meet. No, I'm taking the piss. I'm meeting hyperbole with hyperbole. I'm skewering the absurdly lofty goals in Thunberg's latest manifesto. She's not going to earn my respect by accomplishing the impossible (though if she did, she would). She's losing my respect by inches, with things like this absurd manifesto and its impossible goals. We need a hard cap on global emissions within the decade to avert catastrophe, and she's talking about dismantling the entire system of the world on SJW grounds. Which, admittedly, would reduce emissions. But it would probably be a much worse catastrophe for humans. I think I'm justified in a little pointing and laughing. Quote: Well, she doesn't. She doesn't even know who you are and has no reason to give two rat's tails what you think of her, or what you want from her. This is a cop out. She's supposed to be an explainer and persuader. Nobody asked her to pursue this. But we can judge whether she's doing a good job of explaining and persuading. I'd say she owes it to herself and her cause to explain some of this silliness. Quote: You keep referring to her "fan club". There is no fan club. She has supporters across the world. Your use of the phrase comes across as derogatory, or at the very least, condescending. I think when you have supporters who are flying around the world just to meet with you personally, you have a fan club. Quote: It's not for me to explain. You're demanding explanations from Greta, not from me. And she won't be able to explain it to you unless you ask her to. Are you going to do that? No. You're not. Because you don't take her seriously because she hasn't answered the questions that you haven't asked her. You can explain why you dismiss it.

6th December 2019, 07:59 AM	#203
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by arthwollipot Why should I set a standard at all? I'm not the one holding her to standards, you are. She's doing more than I am, and that's good enough for me. That's a pretty poor standard. We're celebrating Greta Thunberg because she's doing more than arthwollipot? And is she really doing all that much more than you? Sure, she's inspired protest events around the world, but so what? She's calling for drastic and immediate policy changes. She's calling for a hard cap on global emissions within the next ten years. On those critical points - the points that actually matter - has she really done all that much more than you have? Apparently she's gotten some Swedes to reduce their air travel. Good on her for that. Of course, now's she's sending them a message that giving up air travel isn't practical, and that the world's governments need to make it easier for people to travel without flying. This seems like a weird and wrong-headed priority at this time. I wonder how many Swedes are going to hear this new message and decide to go back to air travel, pending a policy change from the governments of the world?

6th December 2019, 08:04 AM	#204
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Do you read/see all her posts on Twitter, for example? My guess? To prove it can be done. (I know some stuffs about that line of thought. : ) ) To prove what can be done? To prove it's possible to fly a sailboat crew across the Atlantic? That is already well known, and irrelevant to Thunberg's stated mission. To prove it's possible to sail across the Atlantic? That is also already well known. Greta herself did it already, just a couple months ago.

6th December 2019, 09:45 AM	#206
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by lomiller How so? Why should any single individual in a conference this large be so critically important they absolutely must be there. The premise is nonsensical. Not at all. One of the main purposes of COP25 is to work out the next stage in international climate change policy. The success of this depends on the attendance of national representatives to discuss and agree on these policies. Given the agenda of the conference, and given the urgency of the work, I'd say that there are several people whose attendance and participation are absolutely critical. Quote: The evidence says otherwise. Hell, your own argument is that she does it so effectively she’s inspired a global “fan club”. Whether this derogatory description truly applies is irrelevant, clearly her message resonates even with her critics. Just look at how her simple factual statements trigger hyperbolic responses from climate deniers, even in this very thread. Having a fan club is not the same thing as making a difference where the difference actually matters. She's done a really good job of persuading people to go to street protests. How good a job has she done of persuading people to hard cap emissions before it's too late? How good a job has she done at persuading people to take the kind of drastic, disruptive policy actions she's calling for? Sizzle is not steak. We need steak. She's preaching a message of desperate need for steak, lots of it, right ******* now. But all she's actually delivered so far is sizzle. Her fan club is celebrating sizzle.

6th December 2019, 11:25 AM	#209
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by lionking As this thread displays, she is indeed getting to them. The ridicule that has been thrown her way in this thread is ample evidence. The deniers in this thread are particular apoplectic. Are you familiar with the concept of a "chew toy"? I don't much care about Greta one way or the other. I hadn't heard about her before Matthew Best started this thread to bring her to our attention. When this thread loses steam, I'll probably not think about Greta ever again. Maybe if her name crosses my eclectic news feed I might think, "oh yeah, her", before moving on. But while this thread is active, I don't mind gnawing on the chew toy a bit. Greta's antics, and the antics of her fan club, (we're not fans! we just think she's doing great work and making a real difference! we're just here to defend her against any ridicule at all!), are a decent chew toy. Get over it.

6th December 2019, 12:55 PM	#212
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,807	Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here? "She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up." https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_

6th December 2019, 01:13 PM	#213
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Is Jeremy Clarkson a member here? "She's mad and she's dangerous and she's causing young children sleepless nights with her idiocy. I think she needs to go back to school and shut up." https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebri...21029959.amp?_ In truth, I disagree with Clarkson, who is overreacting (IMO). She's understandably angry. She's not particularly dangerous. I don't know about any sleepless children. The issues she's warning about aren't idiotic, even if some of her actions are kinda silly. I guess going back to school is generally a good idea, but I have no problem with her trading a few months of schooling for these kinds of life experiences. I bet even Swedish schools aren't that amazing. She can always catch up on her studies later, assmuming she's even falling behind in the first place. And of course she doesn't need to shut up. She should continue speaking her mind and promoting her causes. She'll get better at it as she matures, I hope. So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here. Anyway, as long as she's speaking her mind and promoting her causes, I reserve the right to point and laugh when she says or does something silly. And I reserve the right to point and laugh when her fan club tries overhypes her actual accomplishments into something much more significant, or insists that her presence at this or that event is super important because of reasons.

6th December 2019, 01:24 PM	#214
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,807	Originally Posted by theprestige So no, I don't think Clarkson is a member here. Good. I can call him an idiot then.

6th December 2019, 01:31 PM	#215
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Good. I can call him an idiot then. Be my guest.

6th December 2019, 01:36 PM	#216
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,807	Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot.

6th December 2019, 01:47 PM	#217
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,546	Originally Posted by Matthew Best Thanks. Clarkson is an idiot. LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot? I guess it must be easier than addressing any of the points raised or questions asked about Greta Thunberg.

6th December 2019, 01:55 PM	#218
Matthew Best Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester Square, London Posts: 9,807	Originally Posted by theprestige LOL. Look! A squirrel! Were you just looking for a middle aged white dude to call an idiot? No, he just appeared.

6th December 2019, 08:09 PM	#219
8enotto Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 2,792	Originally Posted by Stout It's not like Al Gore got a rough ride. he just made his movie, gave his speeches and the climate crisis was solved. No opposition, no push back everybody just fell in line, listened to the middle aged white guy and Bob's your uncle. I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either. It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it. All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support.

6th December 2019, 08:56 PM	#220
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339	Originally Posted by 8enotto I don't recall seeing anything Sr Gore preached getting much traction either. It happened if government mandated it and not because Al gave a speech about it. All the chicken littles before him aren't very memorable so thier great feats probably were not that many without gov support. That was posted more in response to the ridiculous notion that were Thunberg a middle aged man, he wouldn't be getting such a rough ride. There was plenty of push back against Gore and I seem to remember some "fake news" widely circulation about the amount of energy his mansion consumed. Everybody vowed to do better back then. Governments. Companies, Individuals ( to some extent ) and 15 years from now, Thunberg might also be a distant memory. Global Day of Action.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339

7th December 2019, 03:03 AM	#221
Samson Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,411	Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years. It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon. A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass.

7th December 2019, 04:17 AM	#222
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 41,405	I helped at parkrun, and at a local refugee support fundraising BBQ today. I walked to both. I got to meet inspiring new people and gain new knowledge and hope. I got to have conversations in realtime with friends who could answer some of my burning questions. And helped others help others without costing taxpayers anything. And got given some surplus food. I thought I'd be a bit smug about that in this thread and let you interpret what I'm getting at. BTW, when this wasn't going on, today I was suffering enormous anguish in trying to help Foolmewunz and family. And receiving supportive messages and gestures from the amazing ISF/JREF community, and also feeling like our forum is emerging from a very dark time.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift". Last edited by Orphia Nay; 7th December 2019 at 04:20 AM. Reason: Spoiler - the benefits of gathering together in one place

7th December 2019, 05:13 AM	#223
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,900	Originally Posted by Samson Interesting to see GT correctly ridiculing school strikes as , ok, not persuading Asian politicians to decide not to commission coal fired power stations as planned for next 30 years. It is actually important that all potential Asian tourists climb the pizza tower and fly through the Grand Canyon. A sine qua non to equivilate opportunity for human biomass. Another one who thinks Greta has problems with communication????
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th December 2019, 11:46 AM	#224
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,687	Originally Posted by theprestige If she had pushed the message that nobody should be flying, and then she flew to COP25 with no explanation, I would have taken issue with that. If she had flown to COP25, with the explanation that nobody should be flying except out of great need, and there was a great need for her to attend COP25, I would not have taken issue with that explanation. <snip? Sure you would have. In fact, you already did, and continue to, at great length and in great detail. Why do you say things like this when they are patently untrue?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

7th December 2019, 02:17 PM	#225
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339	Surprise !!!! Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell. And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339

7th December 2019, 04:24 PM	#226
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	Originally Posted by Stout Surprise !!!! Greta Thunberg says school strikes have achieved nothing You need to double your efforts people. Grab a sign, get out there. Raise your fist and yell. And after the protest I'd like to point out that propane patio heaters are on sale at Wal Mart. Why does this surprise you?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

7th December 2019, 04:52 PM	#227
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339	Originally Posted by Steve Why does this surprise you? There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25.... There's always Glasgow.
Stout Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,339

7th December 2019, 06:00 PM	#228
8enotto Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 2,792	Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment. Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers.

7th December 2019, 06:06 PM	#229
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	Originally Posted by Stout There was so much faith, so much enthusiasm over the machinations of the Swedish girl. I thought this time...maybe but with the way things appear to be going at COP25.... There's always Glasgow. It appears you did not understand my question. I’ll ask again. Why did that surprise you?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

7th December 2019, 06:19 PM	#230
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,900	Originally Posted by 8enotto Miss Greta is learning history repeats itself. Protest is a weak method of convincing rich men to abandon huge income and investment. Soon she will learn when teens grow, turn into parents ideals and reality are not the same. And which one is always abandoned when baby needs diapers. Well it’s a good thing that the intention is not to convince the rich. Did you read my list of successful, world changing protests? And you final paragraph is just ridiculous. Have you noticed parents and even grey heads marching in protest? It looks you have convinced yourself that you are doing practical things without marching and that nothing else can work. Can you please acknowledge that many other people are doing so as well? Governments, in the main, are not doing what they can. This is the target of these protests. People who do not accept that Greta is doing constructive things have their heads in the sand in my opinion. And I suspect that it’s only because they don’t like young girls telling obvious truths.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th December 2019, 06:30 PM	#231
8enotto Master Poster Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: Mexico Posts: 2,792	You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly. That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that.

7th December 2019, 06:38 PM	#232
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,900	Originally Posted by 8enotto You are allowed your opinion and have voiced it clearly. That does not imply anyone has to think in lockstep we with you. Accept that. Well I don’t have to accept nonsense. What about those world changing protests?
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

7th December 2019, 08:20 PM	#233
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is: “Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...” Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or... it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks...
	Last edited by Giordano; 7th December 2019 at 08:24 PM.

7th December 2019, 08:30 PM	#234
cullennz Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: NZ Posts: 21,318	Originally Posted by Giordano I dropped back in to this thread to discover that the current argument is: “Ha! Ha! Nothing got done about climate change because of Al Gore! Nothing will get done about climate change because of Greta Thunberg! Ha, ha, ha - she and her followers are just idiots to think otherwise! It is all useless! Snort, laugh...” Well, I hope you guys think about what the implications of this argument are and if anyone who really believes it should find much amusement in it. I’m not sure celebrating someone’s alleged ineffectiveness in this area is a great idea. I also hope none of you lives near the ocean, or near any area with a risk of wildfire, or... it’s like finding it funny to watch other passengers they dislike panic as the ship they all share sinks... I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point. Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used? You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive?

7th December 2019, 08:44 PM	#235
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	Originally Posted by cullennz I have read this post about 4 times now and still don't get your point. Greta admits her strikes didn't work on govts, yet you blame [normal people who who had the audacity to criticise the methods she used? You do realise that knowing climate change is happening and wanting govts to act, while not fawning over her every action are not mutually exclusive? I disagree.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"