Electric Vehicles - Page 2

Roger Ramjets · 9th February 2021, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

No brake pads? So total regenerative braking?

Pretty much. Mechanical brakes are only used when braking hard, coming to a complete stop or when the battery is fully charged and can't take any more (another reason to not not charge fully, especially if you start off going downhill!).

According to Elon Musk, the brake pads on a Tesla literally never need to be replaced for the lifetime of the car. In reality some Tesla owners have reported over 200,000 miles on original brake pads. That's effectively forever for someone like me who does less than 3000 miles per year.

bruto · 9th February 2021, 07:42 PM

I hope those lifetime-pad Teslas have some kind of mechanism to keep the brakes from rusting up. Ordinary disk brakes can get very ineffective with age and disuse. It's one of the problems in cars with four wheel disk brakes, because the rears get relatively so little wear. The rotors glaze over and the pads stick.

Of course this can be gotten around with good design and maintenance, but I suspect it could become a problem. People tend to neglect their brakes until something awful happens.

I think there are plenty of situations where an electric car makes sense, even though there are others where it does not, but it will be a little while before it's a practical only car out here in the country. As a second car for grocery getting and the like, though, it will make sense when the price gets down nearer to that of a gas powered econobox, and a few more charging possibilities emerge.

Roger Ramjets · 9th February 2021, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I don't buy it... Even if you got full power for 10 Solar hours a day during mid summer you're topping off at 3 Kwh a day... During the winter, you're looking at most 3 to 4 solar hours a day maybe getting 1 Kwh if that.

It depends on how much sun you get. You also have to factor in that the Lightyear One only uses 83Wh/km (my Leaf uses ~150Wh/km).

Quote:

And frankly even during mid summer I'm lucky to ever top 200 watts. That's because unlike a home installation you can't really tilt your panels toward the sun. They're fixed flat. During the winter, it's close to useless.

200W * 5 hours is 1kWh. 1kWh / 83Wh = 12km (7.5 miles). I did the sums and figured that in my location I would probably get less than 10 miles range per day. But I usually drive less than 5 miles per day so most of the time it would be enough.

OTOH I have a garage and wouldn't want to leave my nice new EV out in the weather, so the Lightyear One is not for me...

Roger Ramjets · 9th February 2021, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

I hope those lifetime-pad Teslas have some kind of mechanism to keep the brakes from rusting up...

Of course this can be gotten around with good design and maintenance, but I suspect it could become a problem.

Yes, it could be a problem. The more important factor with EV brakes may be age rather than use. But either way you should expect much longer lifespan than in a typical gas car.

Quote:

I think there are plenty of situations where an electric car makes sense, even though there are others where it does not, but it will be a little while before it's a practical only car out here in the country.

If you live so far 'out in the country' that an EV doesn't provide enough range then no, it would not be suitable. But you would be in a very small minority of car owners. And that's OK, we don't expect it to suit everyone - just like no single gas vehicle fits all.

Quote:

it will make sense when the price gets down nearer to that of a gas powered econobox, and a few more charging possibilities emerge.

There are plenty of charging 'possibilities' already in most places, and as more people get EVs they will get more numerous. But if you don't need super fast charging then you just need a connection to the electrical grid and you have a 'charging station' - just bring your own charging cable and plug it in!

GlennB · 10th February 2021, 04:09 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

There are plenty of charging 'possibilities' already in most places, and as more people get EVs they will get more numerous. But if you don't need super fast charging then you just need a connection to the electrical grid and you have a 'charging station' - just bring your own charging cable and plug it in!

I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car.

Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries.

eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work.

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

The thing is we must address these problems if they are ever going to be solved. And once we make the commitment, we begin to find better and cheaper ways to address them.
Simply because we have to.

They issues are being addressed, e.g. Battery 2030 et cetera. New chemistries, more ubiquitous charging points, on-the-go charging...

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 04:21 AM

Originally Posted by Steve

Ok, I don't really know much about the details of electric vehicles. I accept that stopping for a charge would merely add several hours to my day.

No, it wouldn't. As has been pointed out.

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

So due to the unprecedented Covid situation, you had to drive 400km to a far way airport, then turn straight around and drive back home again? A 500 mile round trip with only 5 minutes break in the middle, and so unpleasant that you couldn't stand staying any longer? That's your example of how an electric vehicle would 'add several hours to my day'?

Also airports are excellent places to find charging point, usually a goodly number.

Steve · 10th February 2021, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

No, it wouldn't. As has been pointed out.

A little late. Read the thread.

The Don · 10th February 2021, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car.

True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people.

For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there.

Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand.

gnome · 10th February 2021, 05:15 AM

While I had a 25-mile commute each way, I drove a hybrid. I think it wound up quite economical for me, and if I still did that I would have looked into all-electric when I wound up replacing it last month.

However, my drives are very short now, so paying the extra for hybrid or electric would take a lot longer to pay off and I'm less certain the math adds up, especially since I am getting decent mileage anyway. It also means the reduction in my emissions is smaller, so the stakes seem lower as a green choice. That's probably not gone as a concern, and once it falls into a more practical window I'll happily switch.

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 05:16 AM

Like it's already been said, it's a chicken vs egg situation when it comes to EV infrastructure.

It's very impractical right now to own an electric car unless you have a home with a garage or carport that has electricity available. That cuts out huge parts of the commuting population that don't have garages.

In the greater Boston metro area, you have to be pretty far out from the urban core or have some serious money to be buying a home that has this kind of setup. For many, street parking or simple paved, uncovered lots are the norm.

My Corolla only gets about 300 miles on a single tank of gas (approx 10 gallons), and my commute means I only have to fill it every 7ish days. I can't remember the last time I drove a trip that was long enough to exceed a single tank of gas or would exceed the range of an electric vehicle, excluding when I drove my car cross country during a move.

An electric vehicle would be perfect for my needs, but I have no means to charge it while it's parked behind my apartment, and I park it at a simple paved lot outside my workplace.

I suppose I could drive it to a quick charge station every few days, but the real convenience of an electric vehicle is to be able to charge it at home or work while parked.

Teslas are popular as luxury cars, which makes sense, because the people spending big bucks on a car are also probably the same people with a house and garage in the suburbs to charge it, or can pay the big bucks for a garage spot in the city that has charging outlets. Even if there were a cheaper EV available, it's going to be a major hassle for the average commuter who doesn't have access to these amenities at home or work to keep it charged.

Fast Eddie B · 10th February 2021, 06:05 AM

Quick plug for plug-in hybrids as a transitional step to all-electric.

We bought a new Honda Clarity in 2018. Base model was $31,500, but 2018 was the one year when we could benefit from the $7,500 federal tax credit, so the net $24,000 cost was pretty reasonable for a new sedan of this class.

We can go between 32 and 52 miles before the gas engine comes into play - cold temps and heater use really kill the EV range. Still, many, many local trips are all EV, those that aren’t have just a few gas miles tacked on at the end of a drive. The fuel economy is about 42 mpg, which is not bad at all for a car this size. It only has a 7 gallon gas tank, so fill ups are refreshingly cheap when they are needed. The car has performed quite well on several highway trips where recharging was not available enroute. So far about 45,000 trouble free miles.

Charging is slow with the provided 120v charger - about 4 miles per hour of charge. Still, our M.O. is overnight charging, so we’re always at a full charge in the morning. Stock charger handles 240v, which we have available at home, which slightly more than doubles the charge rate to about 10 miles per hour. Still, handy if a mid-day charge is called for. Proper Level 2 chargers can charge a lot faster, but to date we haven’t seen a need.

As an aside, depending on gas prices and electric rates, there is a point where running on gas is actually cheaper. That point generally hovers around $2/gal, again depending on electric rates in your area. Ours in E TN are relatively cheap, a vestige of the TVA projects of the 1930’s, I think.

But clearly the hybrids are transitional. Pure EV is the future. We have a $100 deposit on a Cybertruck, and hope by the time it delivers our 66 shares of Tesla stock will pay for it!

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

According to Elon Musk, the brake pads on a Tesla literally never need to be replaced for the lifetime of the car. In reality some Tesla owners have reported over 200,000 miles on original brake pads. That's effectively forever for someone like me who does less than 3000 miles per year.

Hey now, some of us plan on seeing in the twenty-second century.

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets

OTOH I have a garage and wouldn't want to leave my nice new EV out in the weather, so the Lightyear One is not for me...

PVC on the roof?

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car.

Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries.

eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work.

Curious. In suburban Dublin where I live I've seen at least a dozen driveway charging points for private vehicles and there are at least as many on-street points within walking distance. Both nearby shopping centres, neither particularly large, have several. One has installed a bank of four points close to the exist specifically for over-night use. The newer apartment building with car parks have charging points and the multi-story has them on every level.

In the city centre they're obiquitous, especially in the Digital Docklands area. Most office car parks have them too. In fact I know of none of my usual clients, mostly IT/tech, who don't provide the. My nominal employer put them in two years ago and also rents a section of their ground level exterior parking space to a by-the-hour hire company which has six bays for their EVs.
All four hospitals that I've visited in the last year or so have charging point, one has four (free) points outside on the street.

catsmate · 10th February 2021, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people.

For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there.

Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand.

This seems to be the logical way forward and indeed is being done here.

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people.

For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there.

Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand.

Who pays for the electricity at all these semi-public charging stations? Is it billed to the consumer or is it just offered as an amenity by the businesses that operate the parking lot?

Fast Eddie B · 10th February 2021, 06:29 AM

Here in the Knoxville, TN outskirts, charging stations are as rare a hen’s teeth. There are two at a local Whole Foods, but I haven’t gotten them to work with our car.

Just a few miles from us, however, is Melton Hill Dam. They have a total of four free charging stations as a showcase for alternative energy - in this case, solar. We’ve only used it a few times, but it’s a nice service, regardless.

The Don · 10th February 2021, 06:31 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Who pays for the electricity at all these semi-public charging stations? Is it billed to the consumer or is it just offered as an amenity by the businesses that operate the parking lot?

It depends.

In the UK, Some are free of charge, most are part of one of several national charging companies. As a driver you have an account with one or more of them and as part of that account you have an agreed cost per kwh.

Tesla and their Superchargers is one such national network as are Ecotricity, Polar and so on.....

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Here in the Knoxville, TN outskirts, charging stations are as rare a hen’s teeth. There are two at a local Whole Foods, but I haven’t gotten them to work with our car.

Just a few miles from us, however, is Melton Hill Dam. They have a total of four free charging stations as a showcase for alternative energy - in this case, solar. We’ve only used it a few times, but it’s a nice service, regardless.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7893/4...087bfd5c_z.jpg

Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption.

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption.

Nope. There's about 5 or 6 standards for both AC charging and DC charging*

https://evcharging.enelx.com/eu/abou...onnector-types

*Yes Pedants I see you stirring. I know that technically you don't "charge" an EV in most cases, I just don't care.

The Don · 10th February 2021, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption.

They are not:

https://www.zap-map.com/charge-point...ectors-speeds/

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 06:38 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Nope. There's about 5 or 6 standards for both AC charging and DC charging*

https://evcharging.enelx.com/eu/abou...onnector-types

*Yes Pedants I see you stirring. I know that technically you don't "charge" an EV in most cases, I just don't care.

Of course Tesla doesn't use standardized hardware. Truly the Wanker's car.

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Of course Tesla doesn't use standardized hardware. Truly the Wanker's car.

Listen without Telsa the odds that EV would still be a niche product would be a lot higher. You get to make calls like that when you're the one actually making motion in the industry.

I get it. A lot of people really, really, really, want to hate Tesla. But you can't pretend the EV Market would (most probably) be anything like it is now without them.

jadebox · 10th February 2021, 06:43 AM

A little over a year ago, I started shopping for an economical car to drive to and from work each day. I had pretty much decided on a two-year old Honda Fit that was about $12000.

Before buying it, I decided to see what else might be available at around the same price. I ended up buying a 2015 BMW i3 for just under $15K.

The i3 is larger inside and more comfortable. It has all kinds of tech features including navigation and adaptable cruise control that the Fit didn't have. I can climatize the cabin using an app so it is comfortable when I get in it. And, I get the equivalent of about two or three times the mileage. Back when I was actually driving to work, I was saving about $100 a month on fuel. That covered a big chunk of my loan payment.

The range is about 50 to 70 miles which is much more than I drive (drove) in a day.

Driving an EV is so much more refined than driving a gas powered vehicle. It is quieter. There is no exhaust or gas smell. Acceleration is quick and smooth. One-pedal driving is a pleasure. And, I don't have to stop for gas every week or two.

Fast Eddie B · 10th February 2021, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption.

As others have already mentioned, it depends.

The ones at Whole Foods are compatible, but the 3 times we’ve tried our charge light goes on, but then shuts off. We’ve mentioned the problem to the manager and gotten blank stares. Does not seem like a real priority to them, and with gas to fall back on it’s hardly a big deal for us either.

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Listen without Telsa the odds that EV would still be a niche product would be a lot higher. You get to make calls like that when you're the one actually making motion in the industry.

I get it. A lot of people really, really, really, want to hate Tesla. But you can't pretend the EV Market would (most probably) be anything like it is now without them.

Tesla is very good at marketing. I don't mean that as a negative, EV really needed an effective PR campaign to make them more desirable. Tesla's success in marketing electric cars as luxury vehicles has done a lot to mainstream the idea of EVs. Well done for them.

Musk's hot-dogging and general jackassery is a big part of that success, but seems just as likely to be the company's downfall. Tesla's popularity has as much to do with weird nerds and their personality cult as it does with the quality of the car and viability of the company.

As of yet, they are still a niche vehicle. The true hero of the EV revolution will be whoever comes out with an affordable electric car that is available in mass. Perhaps that will be Tesla, perhaps not.

The truth of the matter is that all new cars are a luxury. New luxury cars doubly so. Many people will not be able to afford an electric car until there is sufficient supply in the used market. I have never bought a new car and likely never will. My low mileage recent year Corolla was about half the price of the same car new, and the 30,000 miles it came with weren't worth paying double the cost.

I see hybrids in the used car market here and there, which is nice. Used Prius are pretty common. Hopefully electric cars will be entering the used market in the near future.

GlennB · 10th February 2021, 06:56 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

Curious. In suburban Dublin where I live I've seen at least a dozen driveway charging points for private vehicles and there are at least as many on-street points within walking distance. Both nearby shopping centres, neither particularly large, have several. One has installed a bank of four points close to the exist specifically for over-night use. The newer apartment building with car parks have charging points and the multi-story has them on every level.

In the city centre they're obiquitous, especially in the Digital Docklands area. Most office car parks have them too. In fact I know of none of my usual clients, mostly IT/tech, who don't provide the. My nominal employer put them in two years ago and also rents a section of their ground level exterior parking space to a by-the-hour hire company which has six bays for their EVs.
All four hospitals that I've visited in the last year or so have charging point, one has four (free) points outside on the street.

Laudable. Good for Dublin, but I'm fairly sure that the UK is miles behind that level of provision.

The small town of Usk, where we live, has precisely two and they've only just been installed. They're in a busy car park used, afaics, mostly by people commuting into Usk for their day's work. I walk right past them if I stroll down to the shops and often see non-EVs parked in those spots.

The larger Somerset town of Frome, where we used to live, appears to have precisely one.

malbui · 10th February 2021, 06:57 AM

A little user report from my side.

I've had a Tesla Model 3 LR since March 2019. It has a maximum theoretical range of 540km but I only charge it to 80% unless I'm on roadtrips.

I can charge at home in the garage at 17km/h which is more than adequate for topping up overnight, otherwise with the new generation of Tesla superchargers I can stick 400km of range on it in the time it takes me to go to the bathroom and buy a coffee and snacks. My daily commute during normal times is 12km each way and so I only need to charge every fortnight or so.

I've done a couple of roadtrips of over 2000km without any issues at all. It's true that I needed to check the location of superchargers along the route just in case, but at the same time my weakening bladder and decreasing tolerance for fatigue mean I can only drive in 2.5 to 3 hour bursts anyway. Less on the German autobahns which are extremely tiring.

My nearest city is getting increasingly aggressive about car pollution and the structures are already in place to restrict access by category of emissions during pollution peaks. It's good to be zero-rated already and unaffected by this, even if I rarely drive into the city centre anyway.

In summary, this solution really works for me and my circumstances. Last month I sold the two ICE vehicles I also owned because I simply wasn't using them at all and I can't imagine going back to petrol or diesel again.

Oh yeah, and the performance. Good grief the performance.

jadebox · 10th February 2021, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there.

One of my local grocery stores has a free charging station. It is a "Level 2" charger, not a Fast DC one.

I plug in when I shop there. Usually I spend about thirty minutes shopping. The charge adds about ten miles to my range. Based on what I pay for electricity, that's about 32 cents worth of electricity! Woo Hoo!

But, if all I am doing is driving to that store and back home, I would get home with more of a charge than I left with. That's actually pretty cool.

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 07:46 AM

The whole piecemeal, charge a little here, charge a little there thing seems like a lot of hassle and ambiguity.

And again is only a valid option if you live in a dense urban core with a lot of charging solutions. There's not a charging station where I work. Or where I shop. My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car.

crescent · 10th February 2021, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car.

Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries.

eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work.

I saw an article - I'm a bit pressed for time right now but I'll try to find it later today - that in some neighborhoods like that there is movement towards adapting streetlights and their power supplies to be used as charging stations. Not right at the streetlight necessarily, but the underground electrical supply is already there, stepped down to the right voltage.

Dr. Keith · 10th February 2021, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

The whole piecemeal, charge a little here, charge a little there thing seems like a lot of hassle and ambiguity.

It is certainly a different way of thinking about transportation, but it seems pretty simple and hardly ambiguous. I believe you learn to think of it in terms of adding range over time and making decisions that will give you the needed range in the least amount of time.

Quote:

And again is only a valid option if you live in a dense urban core with a lot of charging solutions. There's not a charging station where I work. Or where I shop. My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car.

What are the odds your work will add charging if they got a tax benefit for it or if they could make money from it?

Now, apply that same thought process to the other places you visit on your day to day travels. If there is money to be had, won't they be looking to make that money?

As more people buy EVs more places will cater to those people. It will be in the wealthier areas first, but as mentioned upthread, there are affordable used options out there already. Retailers and businesses will adapt to that reality and will cater to those consumers. Gas stations with large convenience stores are actually ripe for this sort of updating.

Finally, in a pinch I bet there are lots of options out in the country, even your bit of the country. They are not typically labeled as EV charging points, but instead have signs that say Campground, KOA, or RV Resort. From what I've heard they are happy to take a few bucks for a fill and typically have 240 V 50 amp plugs all over the place.

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

What are the odds your work will add charging if they got a tax benefit for it or if they could make money from it?

Seeing as how my office is virtual and doesn't have a physical location they own and all my work is done at client sites, I'd say fairly goddamn low.

Quote:

Finally, in a pinch I bet there are lots of options out in the country, even your bit of the country. They are not typically labeled as EV charging points, but instead have signs that say Campground, KOA, or RV Resort. From what I've heard they are happy to take a few bucks for a fill and typically have 240 V 50 amp plugs all over the place.

Yeah I could do that. Or I could go to one of the gas stations that is damn near literally on every corner and fill up in 2 minutes with enough to last me the entire week and not worry about it again

jadebox · 10th February 2021, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car.

I have lots of charging stations in my area, but I seldom use them. Charging at home is what I do.

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 09:09 AM

And again I'm not downing electric vehicles. My next car almost certainly will be one (probably a plug in hybrid or range extended electric car, I don't think I can viably go 100% electric just yet)

I just realize they are only viable for people in dense urban areas and "LOL just refuel at your friendly neighborhood local RV park" is insane.

BobTheCoward · 10th February 2021, 09:11 AM

Adapt.

The car was not invented because someone had a vision of the suburbs. The suburbs are an evolution based around the benefits and limitations of a technology.

And you will adapt to the benefits and limitations of a new technology. Things will look different.

SuburbanTurkey · 10th February 2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

And again I'm not downing electric vehicles. My next car almost certainly will be one (probably a plug in hybrid or range extended electric car, I don't think I can viably go 100% electric just yet)

I just realize they are only viable for people in dense urban areas and "LOL just refuel at your friendly neighborhood local RV park" is insane.

Realistically, there's 2 places where cars tend to sit for hours on end that would make for good charging locations. Work and home. Either charging during the workday or overnight while people are home.

If neither of these options are available for lots of people in certain areas, it's hard to see EV catching on over the convenience of a gas car.

MRC_Hans · 10th February 2021, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Seeing as how my office is virtual and doesn't have a physical location they own and all my work is done at client sites, I'd say fairly goddamn low.

Yeah I could do that. Or I could go to one of the gas stations that is damn near literally on every corner and fill up in 2 minutes with enough to last me the entire week and not worry about it again

Not particularly about the quoted post, just about the general tendency.

I have seen this with a long row of innovations and new technologies: We all tend to employ a certain level of tunnel-vision, extrapolating mainly one parameter into the future, then complaining that it won't fit into the present. But there is an evolutionary process going on: The more EVs the more charging stations, and vice versa. The more EVs the better business they are and the more manufacturers will enter the competition for an increasing customer base.

Like biological evolution, it needs a push now and then. Ban incandescent lamps and LED sources bloom, driving quality up and prices down ... etc.

Hans

JoeMorgue · 10th February 2021, 09:42 AM

No every valid point is just naysaying.

It's the same problem with the bike cultist, they refuse to believe that anyone's vehicular needs are ever different from theirs and they always have some insane way to get around inherent downsides, even temporary ones, with their favorite mode of transport.

9th February 2021, 07:30 PM	#41
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,127	Originally Posted by acbytesla No brake pads? So total regenerative braking? Pretty much. Mechanical brakes are only used when braking hard, coming to a complete stop or when the battery is fully charged and can't take any more (another reason to not not charge fully, especially if you start off going downhill!). According to Elon Musk, the brake pads on a Tesla literally never need to be replaced for the lifetime of the car. In reality some Tesla owners have reported over 200,000 miles on original brake pads. That's effectively forever for someone like me who does less than 3000 miles per year.
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

9th February 2021, 07:42 PM	#42
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	I hope those lifetime-pad Teslas have some kind of mechanism to keep the brakes from rusting up. Ordinary disk brakes can get very ineffective with age and disuse. It's one of the problems in cars with four wheel disk brakes, because the rears get relatively so little wear. The rotors glaze over and the pads stick. Of course this can be gotten around with good design and maintenance, but I suspect it could become a problem. People tend to neglect their brakes until something awful happens. I think there are plenty of situations where an electric car makes sense, even though there are others where it does not, but it will be a little while before it's a practical only car out here in the country. As a second car for grocery getting and the like, though, it will make sense when the price gets down nearer to that of a gas powered econobox, and a few more charging possibilities emerge.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

9th February 2021, 07:56 PM	#43
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,127	Originally Posted by acbytesla I don't buy it... Even if you got full power for 10 Solar hours a day during mid summer you're topping off at 3 Kwh a day... During the winter, you're looking at most 3 to 4 solar hours a day maybe getting 1 Kwh if that. It depends on how much sun you get. You also have to factor in that the Lightyear One only uses 83Wh/km (my Leaf uses ~150Wh/km). Quote: And frankly even during mid summer I'm lucky to ever top 200 watts. That's because unlike a home installation you can't really tilt your panels toward the sun. They're fixed flat. During the winter, it's close to useless. 200W * 5 hours is 1kWh. 1kWh / 83Wh = 12km (7.5 miles). I did the sums and figured that in my location I would probably get less than 10 miles range per day. But I usually drive less than 5 miles per day so most of the time it would be enough. OTOH I have a garage and wouldn't want to leave my nice new EV out in the weather, so the Lightyear One is not for me...
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

9th February 2021, 08:19 PM	#44
Roger Ramjets Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 6,127	Originally Posted by bruto I hope those lifetime-pad Teslas have some kind of mechanism to keep the brakes from rusting up... Of course this can be gotten around with good design and maintenance, but I suspect it could become a problem. Yes, it could be a problem. The more important factor with EV brakes may be age rather than use. But either way you should expect much longer lifespan than in a typical gas car. Quote: I think there are plenty of situations where an electric car makes sense, even though there are others where it does not, but it will be a little while before it's a practical only car out here in the country. If you live so far 'out in the country' that an EV doesn't provide enough range then no, it would not be suitable. But you would be in a very small minority of car owners. And that's OK, we don't expect it to suit everyone - just like no single gas vehicle fits all. Quote: it will make sense when the price gets down nearer to that of a gas powered econobox, and a few more charging possibilities emerge. There are plenty of charging 'possibilities' already in most places, and as more people get EVs they will get more numerous. But if you don't need super fast charging then you just need a connection to the electrical grid and you have a 'charging station' - just bring your own charging cable and plug it in!
	__________________ We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.

10th February 2021, 04:09 AM	#45
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,294	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets There are plenty of charging 'possibilities' already in most places, and as more people get EVs they will get more numerous. But if you don't need super fast charging then you just need a connection to the electrical grid and you have a 'charging station' - just bring your own charging cable and plug it in! I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car. Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries. eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work.
	Last edited by GlennB; 10th February 2021 at 04:28 AM.

10th February 2021, 04:20 AM	#46
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by acbytesla The thing is we must address these problems if they are ever going to be solved. And once we make the commitment, we begin to find better and cheaper ways to address them. Simply because we have to. They issues are being addressed, e.g. Battery 2030 et cetera. New chemistries, more ubiquitous charging points, on-the-go charging...
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 04:21 AM	#47
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Steve Ok, I don't really know much about the details of electric vehicles. I accept that stopping for a charge would merely add several hours to my day. No, it wouldn't. As has been pointed out.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 04:27 AM	#48
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets So due to the unprecedented Covid situation, you had to drive 400km to a far way airport, then turn straight around and drive back home again? A 500 mile round trip with only 5 minutes break in the middle, and so unpleasant that you couldn't stand staying any longer? That's your example of how an electric vehicle would 'add several hours to my day'? Also airports are excellent places to find charging point, usually a goodly number.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 04:33 AM	#49
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	Originally Posted by catsmate No, it wouldn't. As has been pointed out. A little late. Read the thread.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

10th February 2021, 04:37 AM	#50
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,376	Originally Posted by GlennB I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car. True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people. For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there. Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand.

10th February 2021, 05:15 AM	#51
gnome Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 13,574	While I had a 25-mile commute each way, I drove a hybrid. I think it wound up quite economical for me, and if I still did that I would have looked into all-electric when I wound up replacing it last month. However, my drives are very short now, so paying the extra for hybrid or electric would take a lot longer to pay off and I'm less certain the math adds up, especially since I am getting decent mileage anyway. It also means the reduction in my emissions is smaller, so the stakes seem lower as a green choice. That's probably not gone as a concern, and once it falls into a more practical window I'll happily switch.
	__________________

10th February 2021, 05:16 AM	#52
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Like it's already been said, it's a chicken vs egg situation when it comes to EV infrastructure. It's very impractical right now to own an electric car unless you have a home with a garage or carport that has electricity available. That cuts out huge parts of the commuting population that don't have garages. In the greater Boston metro area, you have to be pretty far out from the urban core or have some serious money to be buying a home that has this kind of setup. For many, street parking or simple paved, uncovered lots are the norm. My Corolla only gets about 300 miles on a single tank of gas (approx 10 gallons), and my commute means I only have to fill it every 7ish days. I can't remember the last time I drove a trip that was long enough to exceed a single tank of gas or would exceed the range of an electric vehicle, excluding when I drove my car cross country during a move. An electric vehicle would be perfect for my needs, but I have no means to charge it while it's parked behind my apartment, and I park it at a simple paved lot outside my workplace. I suppose I could drive it to a quick charge station every few days, but the real convenience of an electric vehicle is to be able to charge it at home or work while parked. Teslas are popular as luxury cars, which makes sense, because the people spending big bucks on a car are also probably the same people with a house and garage in the suburbs to charge it, or can pay the big bucks for a garage spot in the city that has charging outlets. Even if there were a cheaper EV available, it's going to be a major hassle for the average commuter who doesn't have access to these amenities at home or work to keep it charged.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 10th February 2021 at 05:36 AM.

10th February 2021, 06:05 AM	#53
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,479	Quick plug for plug-in hybrids as a transitional step to all-electric. We bought a new Honda Clarity in 2018. Base model was $31,500, but 2018 was the one year when we could benefit from the $7,500 federal tax credit, so the net $24,000 cost was pretty reasonable for a new sedan of this class. We can go between 32 and 52 miles before the gas engine comes into play - cold temps and heater use really kill the EV range. Still, many, many local trips are all EV, those that aren’t have just a few gas miles tacked on at the end of a drive. The fuel economy is about 42 mpg, which is not bad at all for a car this size. It only has a 7 gallon gas tank, so fill ups are refreshingly cheap when they are needed. The car has performed quite well on several highway trips where recharging was not available enroute. So far about 45,000 trouble free miles. Charging is slow with the provided 120v charger - about 4 miles per hour of charge. Still, our M.O. is overnight charging, so we’re always at a full charge in the morning. Stock charger handles 240v, which we have available at home, which slightly more than doubles the charge rate to about 10 miles per hour. Still, handy if a mid-day charge is called for. Proper Level 2 chargers can charge a lot faster, but to date we haven’t seen a need. As an aside, depending on gas prices and electric rates, there is a point where running on gas is actually cheaper. That point generally hovers around $2/gal, again depending on electric rates in your area. Ours in E TN are relatively cheap, a vestige of the TVA projects of the 1930’s, I think. But clearly the hybrids are transitional. Pure EV is the future. We have a $100 deposit on a Cybertruck, and hope by the time it delivers our 66 shares of Tesla stock will pay for it!
	Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 10th February 2021 at 06:17 AM.

10th February 2021, 06:14 AM	#54
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets According to Elon Musk, the brake pads on a Tesla literally never need to be replaced for the lifetime of the car. In reality some Tesla owners have reported over 200,000 miles on original brake pads. That's effectively forever for someone like me who does less than 3000 miles per year. Hey now, some of us plan on seeing in the twenty-second century. Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets OTOH I have a garage and wouldn't want to leave my nice new EV out in the weather, so the Lightyear One is not for me... PVC on the roof?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 06:23 AM	#55
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by GlennB I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car. Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries. eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work. Curious. In suburban Dublin where I live I've seen at least a dozen driveway charging points for private vehicles and there are at least as many on-street points within walking distance. Both nearby shopping centres, neither particularly large, have several. One has installed a bank of four points close to the exist specifically for over-night use. The newer apartment building with car parks have charging points and the multi-story has them on every level. In the city centre they're obiquitous, especially in the Digital Docklands area. Most office car parks have them too. In fact I know of none of my usual clients, mostly IT/tech, who don't provide the. My nominal employer put them in two years ago and also rents a section of their ground level exterior parking space to a by-the-hour hire company which has six bays for their EVs. All four hospitals that I've visited in the last year or so have charging point, one has four (free) points outside on the street.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 06:24 AM	#56
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 28,111	Originally Posted by The Don True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people. For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there. Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand. This seems to be the logical way forward and indeed is being done here.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

10th February 2021, 06:27 AM	#57
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by The Don True, but for many people the charging requirements aren't that onerous. A 200 mile range covers a week's motoring for most people. For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there. Nearly 55% of new cars in Norway are electric vehicles. Maybe we could look to Norway so see how their urban charging network scales to demand. Who pays for the electricity at all these semi-public charging stations? Is it billed to the consumer or is it just offered as an amenity by the businesses that operate the parking lot?

10th February 2021, 06:29 AM	#58
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,479	Here in the Knoxville, TN outskirts, charging stations are as rare a hen’s teeth. There are two at a local Whole Foods, but I haven’t gotten them to work with our car. Just a few miles from us, however, is Melton Hill Dam. They have a total of four free charging stations as a showcase for alternative energy - in this case, solar. We’ve only used it a few times, but it’s a nice service, regardless.

10th February 2021, 06:31 AM	#59
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,376	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Who pays for the electricity at all these semi-public charging stations? Is it billed to the consumer or is it just offered as an amenity by the businesses that operate the parking lot? It depends. In the UK, Some are free of charge, most are part of one of several national charging companies. As a driver you have an account with one or more of them and as part of that account you have an agreed cost per kwh. Tesla and their Superchargers is one such national network as are Ecotricity, Polar and so on.....

10th February 2021, 06:33 AM	#60
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Here in the Knoxville, TN outskirts, charging stations are as rare a hen’s teeth. There are two at a local Whole Foods, but I haven’t gotten them to work with our car. Just a few miles from us, however, is Melton Hill Dam. They have a total of four free charging stations as a showcase for alternative energy - in this case, solar. We’ve only used it a few times, but it’s a nice service, regardless. https://live.staticflickr.com/7893/4...087bfd5c_z.jpg Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption.

10th February 2021, 06:36 AM	#61
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption. Nope. There's about 5 or 6 standards for both AC charging and DC charging* https://evcharging.enelx.com/eu/abou...onnector-types *Yes Pedants I see you stirring. I know that technically you don't "charge" an EV in most cases, I just don't care.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong. Last edited by JoeMorgue; 10th February 2021 at 06:37 AM.

10th February 2021, 06:37 AM	#62
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 36,376	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption. They are not: https://www.zap-map.com/charge-point...ectors-speeds/

10th February 2021, 06:38 AM	#63
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Nope. There's about 5 or 6 standards for both AC charging and DC charging* https://evcharging.enelx.com/eu/abou...onnector-types *Yes Pedants I see you stirring. I know that technically you don't "charge" an EV in most cases, I just don't care. Of course Tesla doesn't use standardized hardware. Truly the Wanker's car.

10th February 2021, 06:41 AM	#64
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Of course Tesla doesn't use standardized hardware. Truly the Wanker's car. Listen without Telsa the odds that EV would still be a niche product would be a lot higher. You get to make calls like that when you're the one actually making motion in the industry. I get it. A lot of people really, really, really, want to hate Tesla. But you can't pretend the EV Market would (most probably) be anything like it is now without them.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

10th February 2021, 06:43 AM	#65
jadebox Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,440	A little over a year ago, I started shopping for an economical car to drive to and from work each day. I had pretty much decided on a two-year old Honda Fit that was about $12000. Before buying it, I decided to see what else might be available at around the same price. I ended up buying a 2015 BMW i3 for just under $15K. The i3 is larger inside and more comfortable. It has all kinds of tech features including navigation and adaptable cruise control that the Fit didn't have. I can climatize the cabin using an app so it is comfortable when I get in it. And, I get the equivalent of about two or three times the mileage. Back when I was actually driving to work, I was saving about $100 a month on fuel. That covered a big chunk of my loan payment. The range is about 50 to 70 miles which is much more than I drive (drove) in a day. Driving an EV is so much more refined than driving a gas powered vehicle. It is quieter. There is no exhaust or gas smell. Acceleration is quick and smooth. One-pedal driving is a pleasure. And, I don't have to stop for gas every week or two.
	Last edited by jadebox; 10th February 2021 at 06:52 AM.

10th February 2021, 06:46 AM	#66
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,479	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Are charging plugs not standardized? Seems like a major impediment to widespread adoption. As others have already mentioned, it depends. The ones at Whole Foods are compatible, but the 3 times we’ve tried our charge light goes on, but then shuts off. We’ve mentioned the problem to the manager and gotten blank stares. Does not seem like a real priority to them, and with gas to fall back on it’s hardly a big deal for us either.

10th February 2021, 06:52 AM	#67
SuburbanTurkey Guest Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Null Posts: 15,479	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Listen without Telsa the odds that EV would still be a niche product would be a lot higher. You get to make calls like that when you're the one actually making motion in the industry. I get it. A lot of people really, really, really, want to hate Tesla. But you can't pretend the EV Market would (most probably) be anything like it is now without them. Tesla is very good at marketing. I don't mean that as a negative, EV really needed an effective PR campaign to make them more desirable. Tesla's success in marketing electric cars as luxury vehicles has done a lot to mainstream the idea of EVs. Well done for them. Musk's hot-dogging and general jackassery is a big part of that success, but seems just as likely to be the company's downfall. Tesla's popularity has as much to do with weird nerds and their personality cult as it does with the quality of the car and viability of the company. As of yet, they are still a niche vehicle. The true hero of the EV revolution will be whoever comes out with an affordable electric car that is available in mass. Perhaps that will be Tesla, perhaps not. The truth of the matter is that all new cars are a luxury. New luxury cars doubly so. Many people will not be able to afford an electric car until there is sufficient supply in the used market. I have never bought a new car and likely never will. My low mileage recent year Corolla was about half the price of the same car new, and the 30,000 miles it came with weren't worth paying double the cost. I see hybrids in the used car market here and there, which is nice. Used Prius are pretty common. Hopefully electric cars will be entering the used market in the near future.
	Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 10th February 2021 at 07:05 AM.

10th February 2021, 06:56 AM	#68
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,294	Originally Posted by catsmate Curious. In suburban Dublin where I live I've seen at least a dozen driveway charging points for private vehicles and there are at least as many on-street points within walking distance. Both nearby shopping centres, neither particularly large, have several. One has installed a bank of four points close to the exist specifically for over-night use. The newer apartment building with car parks have charging points and the multi-story has them on every level. In the city centre they're obiquitous, especially in the Digital Docklands area. Most office car parks have them too. In fact I know of none of my usual clients, mostly IT/tech, who don't provide the. My nominal employer put them in two years ago and also rents a section of their ground level exterior parking space to a by-the-hour hire company which has six bays for their EVs. All four hospitals that I've visited in the last year or so have charging point, one has four (free) points outside on the street. Laudable. Good for Dublin, but I'm fairly sure that the UK is miles behind that level of provision. The small town of Usk, where we live, has precisely two and they've only just been installed. They're in a busy car park used, afaics, mostly by people commuting into Usk for their day's work. I walk right past them if I stroll down to the shops and often see non-EVs parked in those spots. The larger Somerset town of Frome, where we used to live, appears to have precisely one.

10th February 2021, 06:57 AM	#69
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,446	A little user report from my side. I've had a Tesla Model 3 LR since March 2019. It has a maximum theoretical range of 540km but I only charge it to 80% unless I'm on roadtrips. I can charge at home in the garage at 17km/h which is more than adequate for topping up overnight, otherwise with the new generation of Tesla superchargers I can stick 400km of range on it in the time it takes me to go to the bathroom and buy a coffee and snacks. My daily commute during normal times is 12km each way and so I only need to charge every fortnight or so. I've done a couple of roadtrips of over 2000km without any issues at all. It's true that I needed to check the location of superchargers along the route just in case, but at the same time my weakening bladder and decreasing tolerance for fatigue mean I can only drive in 2.5 to 3 hour bursts anyway. Less on the German autobahns which are extremely tiring. My nearest city is getting increasingly aggressive about car pollution and the structures are already in place to restrict access by category of emissions during pollution peaks. It's good to be zero-rated already and unaffected by this, even if I rarely drive into the city centre anyway. In summary, this solution really works for me and my circumstances. Last month I sold the two ICE vehicles I also owned because I simply wasn't using them at all and I can't imagine going back to petrol or diesel again. Oh yeah, and the performance. Good grief the performance.
malbui Beauf Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,446	__________________ "But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"

10th February 2021, 06:57 AM	#70
jadebox Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,440	Originally Posted by The Don For commuters an alternative to charging at home could be charging at work (if there's a works car park) or at the station (if commuting by rail). I spend 30-45 minutes a week at the supermarket which would be plenty of time to recharge if there was a rapid charger there. One of my local grocery stores has a free charging station. It is a "Level 2" charger, not a Fast DC one. I plug in when I shop there. Usually I spend about thirty minutes shopping. The charge adds about ten miles to my range. Based on what I pay for electricity, that's about 32 cents worth of electricity! Woo Hoo! But, if all I am doing is driving to that store and back home, I would get home with more of a charge than I left with. That's actually pretty cool.

10th February 2021, 07:46 AM	#71
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	The whole piecemeal, charge a little here, charge a little there thing seems like a lot of hassle and ambiguity. And again is only a valid option if you live in a dense urban core with a lot of charging solutions. There's not a charging station where I work. Or where I shop. My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

10th February 2021, 08:23 AM	#72
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,316	Originally Posted by GlennB I don't know where you live, but 'charging possibilities' in a typical UK residential street are far from numerous, in fact you'd be hard pressed to find any at all. Most houses don't have an integral garage and you can't just run an extension cable out across the pavement/sidewalk to your car. Charging stations at public car parks might sound plausible, but in the UK they're mostly 'pay for' and chock-a-block at the best of times. Also that wouldn't be much use if the nearest is half a mile away. Free supermarket car parks? They're generally 'no overnight stay' and often out of town. Nah, it'll be far from easy to install widespread EV charging facilities in many countries. eta: And, of course, a lot of people live in flats, so even the extension cable plan wouldn't work. I saw an article - I'm a bit pressed for time right now but I'll try to find it later today - that in some neighborhoods like that there is movement towards adapting streetlights and their power supplies to be used as charging stations. Not right at the streetlight necessarily, but the underground electrical supply is already there, stepped down to the right voltage.

10th February 2021, 08:32 AM	#73
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,551	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue The whole piecemeal, charge a little here, charge a little there thing seems like a lot of hassle and ambiguity. It is certainly a different way of thinking about transportation, but it seems pretty simple and hardly ambiguous. I believe you learn to think of it in terms of adding range over time and making decisions that will give you the needed range in the least amount of time. Quote: And again is only a valid option if you live in a dense urban core with a lot of charging solutions. There's not a charging station where I work. Or where I shop. My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car. What are the odds your work will add charging if they got a tax benefit for it or if they could make money from it? Now, apply that same thought process to the other places you visit on your day to day travels. If there is money to be had, won't they be looking to make that money? As more people buy EVs more places will cater to those people. It will be in the wealthier areas first, but as mentioned upthread, there are affordable used options out there already. Retailers and businesses will adapt to that reality and will cater to those consumers. Gas stations with large convenience stores are actually ripe for this sort of updating. Finally, in a pinch I bet there are lots of options out in the country, even your bit of the country. They are not typically labeled as EV charging points, but instead have signs that say Campground, KOA, or RV Resort. From what I've heard they are happy to take a few bucks for a fill and typically have 240 V 50 amp plugs all over the place.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

10th February 2021, 08:34 AM	#74
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith What are the odds your work will add charging if they got a tax benefit for it or if they could make money from it? Seeing as how my office is virtual and doesn't have a physical location they own and all my work is done at client sites, I'd say fairly goddamn low. Quote: Finally, in a pinch I bet there are lots of options out in the country, even your bit of the country. They are not typically labeled as EV charging points, but instead have signs that say Campground, KOA, or RV Resort. From what I've heard they are happy to take a few bucks for a fill and typically have 240 V 50 amp plugs all over the place. Yeah I could do that. Or I could go to one of the gas stations that is damn near literally on every corner and fill up in 2 minutes with enough to last me the entire week and not worry about it again
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

10th February 2021, 09:00 AM	#75
jadebox Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,440	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue My house is the only viable place I could charge an electric car. I have lots of charging stations in my area, but I seldom use them. Charging at home is what I do.