Electric Vehicles

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Shalamar

I've had my Tesla for two years today. No regrets. It's an awesome car.

I've had my Outlander PHEV for seven years, and I still love it!

[Filippo Lippi]

"The batteries have to be thrown away after three years!"

Don't think this has been posted before, apologies if it has

Quote:

Toyota City, Japan, October 27, 2022―JERA Co., Inc. (JERA) and Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) announce the construction and launch of the world's first (as of writing, according to Toyota's investigations) large-capacity Sweep Energy Storage System. The system was built using batteries reclaimed from electrified vehicles (HEV, PHEV, BEV, FCEV) and is connected to the consumer electrical power grid. It begins operation today.

[Fast Eddie B]

Today marks one year of ownership of our Model 3 LR. 26,600 miles to date.

It’s been a wonderful car, quite sporty in its handling, but a pleasure on long drives. And we’ve done lots of long drives: at least 4 to Florida, 2 to Indiana, 1 to DC and one longer one all the way to Ottawa. We charge exclusively at home unless on a trip, as reflected here:



Note: “Work” here is our N GA home. “Other” is friend’s homes or in just one case a Destination charger.

The only mechanical issue has been the rear defroster going inop. It was fixed under warranty, but it was noticed after our hit & run repair, so it may have been related.

Have rotated the tires twice. They appear to be good for at least 10,000 more miles.

So far, we have still never had to wait in line for a Supercharger. Have never come close to running out of juice on trips, usually trying to hit the next Supercharger with at least 15% remaining, and charging until we show at least that much remaining at the next Supercharger. That usually takes between 15 and 25 minutes, which for us is not a burden.

At home in TN we charge from a 240V 30A receptacle yielding about 24 miles of range per hour. We charge overnight to 80% for local driving, yielding about 265 miles of range, plenty for any conceivable local driving. Typically takes less than 4 hours to “top off” after a day’s running around.

I know it’s not uncommon to hear reports of new Teslas having quality control issues. Ours was delivered in perfect shape, and to date no rattles or clunks or other problems.

Another very nice feature is the Over-the-Air updates, gradually improving the car’s functionality over time.

In short, it’s a great car and we’d definitely consider another Tesla in the future. Maybe even the CyberTruck we have a deposit on!

[Filippo Lippi]

But it must have caught fire at least seven or eight times over the year?

Coming up to five years on the Leaf and one on the eNiro and the only problem we've had is the infotainment system on the Leaf going nuts. That required the car going away for two weeks, but came back with a better system.

Currently on a long trip to the south west of England (from Nottingham). Rapid charging has been fine and managed a complete top up overnight in Torquay.

Hope to never have to run an ICE car again

[The Don]

Fast Eddie B's post highlights to me how efficient that Tesla is. Over the whole year and with mixed driving he's averaged well over 4 miles per kwh.

Mrs Don was achieving that (with a very light right foot) with her Fiat 500 over the summer but over the winter that has dropped considerably. The Fiat is quite blunt so I wouldn't expect it to be a good high speed cruiser but the vast majority of Mrs Don's driving is moderately paced on rural roads.

Then again, even in the depths of winter, thanks to judicious timing 75%+ of Mrs Don's "fuel" is free

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi

"The batteries have to be thrown away after three years!"

Don't think this has been posted before, apologies if it has

I'm hoping that in a few years "spent" vehicle battery packs will become a cost-effective solution to home solar storage.

[malbui]

Next month will mark four years that I’ve had my TM3 LR. I still smile every time I climb into it and drive off. Fantastic car.

[crescent]

My regular commuter car is fading fast. I think there's a head gasket leak, repairing that would probably cost more than the car's resale value.

Add to that I might be transferring to a work at home position, I'll find out in the next few weeks.

Add more to that, my son will get his driver's license in a year or so.

So car shopping is a thing. Current U.S. federal tax credit for a new EV is up to $7500. My state (Colorado) also offers a $2500 credit. And Chevy has dropped the price of the Bolt down to around $30,000 (give or take). Cost includes installation of a 220v charger station on a 40 amp breaker on an existing breaker panel. That may be a catch, because I don't think my fuse breaker panel thing can accommodate a new 220v breaker - those take two slots and I only have one open slot left on mine.

Still that's really in consideration. We'll wait until I find out about the work at home thing before moving forward though.

Chevy is discontinuing the Bolt in favor a new EV standard across all GM brands. But I'm happy to snatch up one of the last ones if they are discounted as much as they are.

[zooterkin]

I've had my Kia e-Niro for just under a year; it had 6000 on the clock when I got it, I've just booked it in for its 20,000 mile service. No problems so far, and I still enjoy driving it (doing more of that than I expected when I got it, I'm doing a 100 mile round trip twice a week to attend college). Averaging better than 4miles/kWh, even at this time of year; now charging mainly at home on a granny charger. Until recently, the charger at the car park for college was free (though slightly unreliable), but the costs now make using that uneconomic.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by crescent

My regular commuter car is fading fast. I think there's a head gasket leak, repairing that would probably cost more than the car's resale value.

Add to that I might be transferring to a work at home position, I'll find out in the next few weeks.

Add more to that, my son will get his driver's license in a year or so.

So car shopping is a thing. Current U.S. federal tax credit for a new EV is up to $7500. My state (Colorado) also offers a $2500 credit. And Chevy has dropped the price of the Bolt down to around $30,000 (give or take). Cost includes installation of a 220v charger station on a 40 amp breaker on an existing breaker panel. That may be a catch, because I don't think my fuse breaker panel thing can accommodate a new 220v breaker - those take two slots and I only have one open slot left on mine.

Still that's really in consideration. We'll wait until I find out about the work at home thing before moving forward though.

Chevy is discontinuing the Bolt in favor a new EV standard across all GM brands. But I'm happy to snatch up one of the last ones if they are discounted as much as they are.

I think if you have a 100 amp main, you should be able to put a 50 or 60 amp subfeed breaker in the box, and run its output to another small box adjacent, to expand your number of available circuits.

Another possibility, depending on brands, is to get a double breaker for a couple of 120 volt circuits, and thus free up another for the 240. Square-D has these. I have a couple in my vastly overcrowded box, as well as a 50 amp subfeed. Similarly, in my shop I have two subfeeds to adjacent outbuildings, each of which has its own panel.

[Trebuchet]

Lots of room in my main panel, because about 2/3 of the 120V breakers have moved to the sub-panel for the generator! But I don't have an electric car yet.

[crescent]

Originally Posted by bruto

I think if you have a 100 amp main, you should be able to put a 50 or 60 amp subfeed breaker in the box, and run its output to another small box adjacent, to expand your number of available circuits.

Another possibility, depending on brands, is to get a double breaker for a couple of 120 volt circuits, and thus free up another for the 240. Square-D has these. I have a couple in my vastly overcrowded box, as well as a 50 amp subfeed. Similarly, in my shop I have two subfeeds to adjacent outbuildings, each of which has its own panel.

Thanks - I didn't know those were a thing. I've got to take a look at the breaker box this evening. I'm not sure if it is 100 amp or not. My house was built really pretty cheaply.

But what about the three-wire 220v lines running to my oven and to my clothes drier? The house was built literally only a year before they changed the codes on that. Current standard is 4-wire, from what I understand, if they do any 220v work they might also be required to replace the existing three wire lines.

Can't have a 4-wire line to the car charging port but 3-wire to the other stuff. Right?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by crescent

Thanks - I didn't know those were a thing. I've got to take a look at the breaker box this evening. I'm not sure if it is 100 amp or not. My house was built really pretty cheaply.

But what about the three-wire 220v lines running to my oven and to my clothes drier? The house was built literally only a year before they changed the codes on that. Current standard is 4-wire, from what I understand, if they do any 220v work they might also be required to replace the existing three wire lines.

Can't have a 4-wire line to the car charging port but 3-wire to the other stuff. Right?

I'm not sure about that. I don't know of a requirement to enact codes retroactively, but don't know what prevails where. My guess is that you could do it, but my guess is predicated partly on the fact that in my case I'd be doing it myself, and the fact that I live in a place where codes are entirely theoretical.

With the right hardware, a new four wire installation is no harder than a three. The only difference is that the ground and neutral on a four wire system are separated, even though they rejoin at the distribution box. The ground, which is a chassis ground, thus passes to the neutral/ground bar and does not share a path with the neutral, which is one side of the 120 volt circuit that often cohabits with the 240, to run stove clocks, dryer timers, etc.

If your house was built any time in recent years, it's almost certainly at least 100 amp service if not 200. I don't think any place has been done with 60 or less in many years, and even 100 is considered pretty wimpy these days.

In the case of your current 240V circuits, although there is very little risk, if you really want to minimize the risk without upgrading wiring, consider running a chassis ground from your dryer and range to some existing ground point, such as copper pipe line if you have copper plumbing, or a separate wire to a ground stake. A direct line from chassis to ground, not otherwise shared with any electrical components, ensures that current passing through the neutral line owing to some fault will never cause the chassis to become hot.

[BowlOfRed]

Originally Posted by crescent

But what about the three-wire 220v lines running to my oven and to my clothes drier? The house was built literally only a year before they changed the codes on that. Current standard is 4-wire, from what I understand, if they do any 220v work they might also be required to replace the existing three wire lines.

Ugh. Those things can kill people when a wire gets frayed. You might want to fix those anyway. Here's a nice thing, in U.S. code, you're allowed to pull ground from another circuit as long as it's sized properly. If your dryer line is run in a wall, but there's a sufficiently-sized ground on the 120 outlet nearby, that can be brought over. So you can add a 4-pin outlet without pulling the old wire.

However, inspectors won't normally worry about it as long as you're not touching that particular circuit. If you're adding a new one and the old one was code when it went in, won't have to touch it.

[Dr. Keith]

We recently bought and renovated a house to rent out. We paid for an electrician to replace the 100 box with a 200 and run new lines so that we have grounded plugs in every room. It was about $1000 and worth every penny.

Don’t need renters bitching about janky wiring.

ETA: upgrading the box can also provide long term savings if your old box was from a brand that is no longer making breakers. I’ve had a few of those over the years. No bueno.

[Dr. Keith]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Note: “Work” here is our N GA home. “Other” is friend’s homes or in just one case a Destination charger.

You’d think Tesla would have a setting for “mountain retreat”, “ski lodge”, “beach house”, “vacation home”, “hangar”, “stables”, “second home”, or at least “cabin”.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

You’d think Tesla would have a setting for “mountain retreat”, “ski lodge”, “beach house”, “vacation home”, “hangar”, “stables”, “second home”, or at least “cabin”.

I'd have thought so, but so far no dice. They do allow you to rename either of your trip meters, so I hope that they eventually update allow a similar renaming option to charge locations, and possibly having more than they do now - handy when we someday have our beach house!

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

We recently bought and renovated a house to rent out. We paid for an electrician to replace the 100 box with a 200 and run new lines so that we have grounded plugs in every room. It was about $1000 and worth every penny.

Don’t need renters bitching about janky wiring.

ETA: upgrading the box can also provide long term savings if your old box was from a brand that is no longer making breakers. I’ve had a few of those over the years. No bueno.

i've read some horror stories of older, as well as off brand, breakers not doing their job. Definitely worth checking out.

Alas, I think upgrading my 100 service would require a complete new drop and overhead lines, so not likely to happen soon.

[Ranb]

My brother, who owns one of the early Tesla 3's, is encouraging me to buy an EV. I tested a Bolt, but was completely unimpressed with the Navigation demo.

When brother suggested that I buy a Model Y, I told him he should upgrade to the Model Y and sell me his Model 3 instead. To my great surprise, he is considering it. With a new base Model 3 costing +$45k, I could save a lot when buying my brother's car, but used Model 3's are going for over $30k.

I don't think I can talk my brother into a "twin brother discount" on his car.

[The Don]

The UK tabloid press has got it in for electric vehicles, I guess because they represent change and progress which is anathema to the proprietors of those newspapers. Today in The Sun the headline is:

Quote:

Drivers ditch electric cars in droves to return to petrol vehicles due to lack of charging stations

https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/2135...rging-stations

The evidence ?

Quote:

Petrol cars saw the largest growth in new car registrations compared with last year, with 58,973 being registered this January compared to 51,468 at the same time last year - a rise of 7,505.

But new battery electric vehicles saw a smaller growth in new car registrations compared to last January rising by 2,861 from 14,433 last year to 17,294 this year.

Petrol vehicle sales have increased by 14.6%

Electric vehicle sales have increased by 19.8%

....and yet people are switching to petrol cars in droves.

[Jack by the hedge]

Just one month's sales data, and comparing last month with the strange Covid times of Jan 2022? Hmm.

I see from the source* of the figures, SMMT, that sales of all types of cars rose 14.7%. So the 14.6% for petrol cars is actually a slight decline in proportion.

It might be interesting to see how many of those petrol car buyers are, as the Sun claims, ditching an EV and returning to petrol. The number doing that ("in droves") could literally be nil.

* https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

[Fast Eddie B]

We recently did a trip in our Model 3LR from our TN home, down the FL east coast as far as Key West, back to Pompano, then across the state and up the west coast. Then Tallahassee then home.

I don't always log or analyze trips like this, but did for a friend who asked.



I guessed at the $3.19/gal figure, though it seemed to be about average for this trip. I compared the cost with the two cars we also travel or traveled with. Looks like the cost of the trip in gas for our Clarity would have been very close to the same as the Tesla mostly Supercharging. So, for any car doing better than 42 mpg, or if gas prices fall a bit more while electric rates remain the same, one might be slightly ahead with a gas car.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

We recently did a trip in our Model 3LR from our TN home, down the FL east coast as far as Key West, back to Pompano, then across the state and up the west coast. Then Tallahassee then home.

I don't always log or analyze trips like this, but did for a friend who asked.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d6f2286d_z.jpg

I guessed at the $3.19/gal figure, though it seemed to be about average for this trip. I compared the cost with the two cars we also travel or traveled with. Looks like the cost of the trip in gas for our Clarity would have been very close to the same as the Tesla mostly Supercharging. So, for any car doing better than 42 mpg, or if gas prices fall a bit more while electric rates remain the same, one might be slightly ahead with a gas car.

Nice analysis.

Note that the petrol vehicles need a lot more servicing than electric vehicles though.

Counting only the cost of the fuel misses most of the savings.

Even with my hybrid, the engine is likely to be practically brand new when the rest of the car dies.

It's an annual tradition for the dealer to complain that I haven't used any of the brake pads yet when I take the car in for its service.

(Regenerative braking is magical, the car slows beautifully, handles perfectly and doesn't use any consumables.)



NB. You could also try to factor in the cost of replacing the battery after x recharges.
For most people, that will occur for the next owner, but it is something that you could consider for accuracy. I've noticed that newer cars are coming out with very long warranty periods for the drive batteries now.

[Fast Eddie B]

Originally Posted by novaphile

You could also try to factor in the cost of replacing the battery after x recharges.
For most people, that will occur for the next owner, but it is something that you could consider for accuracy. I've noticed that newer cars are coming out with very long warranty periods for the drive batteries now.

True. But when one buys an ICE car, does one factor in the cost of an eventual engine replacement? Stipulated a battery will likely need replacing eventually, and sooner than the average gas engine, but most folks just hand wave away such future costs. I know I do!

Plus, with recycling the old battery will have some residual “core value”. And they may have value for stationary applications. And battery cost and efficiency should improve over time. But still a good point.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

True. But when one buys an ICE car, does one factor in the cost of an eventual engine replacement? Stipulated a battery will likely need replacing eventually, and sooner than the average gas engine, but most folks just hand wave away such future costs. I know I do!

Plus, with recycling the old battery will have some residual “core value”. And they may have value for stationary applications. And battery cost and efficiency should improve over time. But still a good point.

My plan is to repurpose my traction battery to be a 'home battery'.

I've seen kits online to achieve this for Nissan Leaf batteries, so I'm hoping that it won't be a big deal by the time I need to do this for my car (Outlander PHEV).

Note that the 'cells' in my battery are just rectangular batteries, quite similar to the batteries in the couple of UPS devices that I own.

[bruto]

I think there's a lot to look forward to here. Indeed, traction batteries must have a good deal more power per pound than would be required of backup batteries in your basement, so there's plenty of life left in them. And gas will become more expensive, and batteries cheaper, and charging infrastructure better, and so forth. It's not a compelling tradeoff here yet, but wait a few years.

I think engine life is not a big factor these days for new purchases, because most people trade cars in before the engines fail. As more electrics hit the used market, that will start becoming more of an issue if they're cheap enough. But around here a car lasts only as long as the body, so an eternal engine is not necessarily the thing you need.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by novaphile

My plan is to repurpose my traction battery to be a 'home battery'.

My hope and expectation is that this will be norm in a few years time.

Mrs Don recently had a Zappi charger installed in the garage and now as long as there is a surplus of at least 1kW from the solar panels then it is directed to the car. As long as there is sufficient light, as there likely will for 8-10 months a year then she will be charging for "free".

When and if this is the case then it's likely that we'll use her car more (at the moment it covers 50-100 miles a week) because free power is the cheapest.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

So, for any car doing better than 42 mpg, or if gas prices fall a bit more while electric rates remain the same, one might be slightly ahead with a gas car.

The costs for electricity has also increased quite a lot in Sweden over the last months. So I've seen calculations like yours also here.

For me my usage profile means that I charge mostly at home (and from solar panels), and therefor at a lower cost compared to Supercharger costs. So the EV still results in lower running costs compared to a fossil car over, even if longer trips are more expensive.

And since we have two EVs, options are limited...

[Fast Eddie B]

In the past, I’ve often kept vehicles a long time. I have 3 motorcycles 20+ years old, and I’m still driving a 2005 Honda Element and a 2006 Honda Ridgeline. And they’re all still motoring along just fine, though certainly showing their age.

But with modern EV’s, I doubt I’ll attempt anything similar. The technology is changing so rapidly, trading for something newer every 3 to 5 years seems like a reasonable plan. We have no firm plans for getting rid of the Tesla - we’ve only had it just over a year - but I don’t feel committed to it for the long haul like I have in the past with other vehicles.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

But with modern EV’s, I doubt I’ll attempt anything similar. The technology is changing so rapidly, trading for something newer every 3 to 5 years seems like a reasonable plan.

I'm not sure how to think here.

If I compare the 2019 Model 3 I used to drive with the 2023 model Y I just took delivery of I can see improvements. But those improvements are mostly related to noise levels, build quality and things like that. And of course software updates. But the battery, charging and engine technology hasn't really changed significantly.

Looking at other manufacturers, for example KIA and Hyundai (as well as others) have come with the 800V system that allows for shorter charging times, but I'm not so sure that we will see any major shifts above this over the next couple of years.

The change that really made a difference is the Tesla price cuts. Suddenly a year-old car would would drop significantly in what it can be sold for. We have historically seen high 2nd hand prices for Teslas (and other EVs), but if Tesla can keep delivering cost-cuts for new cars, that will increase the over all cost-of-ownership since you will get less if you want to trade the old model in.

[Donal]

GM is ending the Camaro. At least, the all gas one.

GM has been heavily investing EVs and executives have hinted at an EV muscle car prototype coming soon.

To me, one of the defining features of a real "muscle car" is you can modify it in your own driveway or garage. How exactly do you do that in the current gas powered cars that are full of sensitive electronics, much less a full EV?

[Dr. Keith]

With software.

[Ryokan]

Originally Posted by novaphile

NB. You could also try to factor in the cost of replacing the battery after x recharges.
For most people, that will occur for the next owner, but it is something that you could consider for accuracy. I've noticed that newer cars are coming out with very long warranty periods for the drive batteries now.

This hasn't become a factor in Norway, even though it's well over 10 years ago now we started adopting electric cars.

There's plenty of second, third, fourth and probably fifth and beyond hand owned electric cars on the roads.

I just sold my 2013 Nissan Leaf to a third hand owner. It's still going strong, and the battery hardly degraded at all.

I know early adopters for Tesla as taxi, and some of them have been in the business for nearly ten years and 700 000+km.

ETA: Nissan's study on older Leafs show the battery will outlive the car by many years. Based on a study of 400 000 Nissan Leafs in Europe, they reckon the battery will last for around 22 years.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Ryokan

This hasn't become a factor in Norway, even though it's well over 10 years ago now we started adopting electric cars.

There's plenty of second, third, fourth and probably fifth and beyond hand owned electric cars on the roads.

I just sold my 2013 Nissan Leaf to a third hand owner. It's still going strong, and the battery hardly degraded at all.

I know early adopters for Tesla as taxi, and some of them have been in the business for nearly ten years and 700 000+km.

ETA: Nissan's study on older Leafs show the battery will outlive the car by many years. Based on a study of 400 000 Nissan Leafs in Europe, they reckon the battery will last for around 22 years.

Nice to know.

It's hard to draw comparisons, because the Prius battery is so small, but this article states that only two Prius batteries had been replaced in Australia (as at 22 July 2008), one at 350,000km and the other at 500,000km.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota...taxi-champion/

Since I'm just sneaking up on 31k I probably have a long time to go before I worry.



Note that the Prius is not a 'plug in hybrid' like mine, nor a fully electric car like the LEAF or Tesla, so I'm not sure how much comparison we can make.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by novaphile

Nice to know.

It's hard to draw comparisons, because the Prius battery is so small, but this article states that only two Prius batteries had been replaced in Australia (as at 22 July 2008), one at 350,000km and the other at 500,000km.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota...taxi-champion/

Since I'm just sneaking up on 31k I probably have a long time to go before I worry.



Note that the Prius is not a 'plug in hybrid' like mine, nor a fully electric car like the LEAF or Tesla, so I'm not sure how much comparison we can make.

It's also a Toyota. If Rover Group had built them it might be a very different story.

[The Don]

These studies of battery longevity are great for EV owners like Mrs Don but they look like putting the kybosh of my hopes of there being a glut of ex-EV battery packs providing cheap household electricity storage.

[Here_to_learn]

Originally Posted by The Don

These studies of battery longevity are great for EV owners like Mrs Don but they look like putting the kybosh of my hopes of there being a glut of ex-EV battery packs providing cheap household electricity storage.

I think you can pin your hope on batteries that come from totaled cars. If they are 100% fine they will probably be used as replacements for other cars, but if they are partially damaged I think there will be a market for companies to remove the damaged parts and sell the rest.

But then there is the recycling trends - several battery factories seem to establish recycling units, where the want to extract the key rare substances from old batteries and use them for new ones.

So I'm not sure we will see cheap storage until we see different types of battery chemistry coming out - for example by trading increased weights for lower costs. Weight is not a major issue when you use in stationary.

[malbui]

This Wednesday will mark four years since I got my hands on my TM3 LR. It’s still a stupendous car and I’m really looking forward to my road trip up to the UK in a few weeks.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by Here_to_learn

I think you can pin your hope on batteries that come from totaled cars. If they are 100% fine they will probably be used as replacements for other cars, but if they are partially damaged I think there will be a market for companies to remove the damaged parts and sell the rest.

But then there is the recycling trends - several battery factories seem to establish recycling units, where the want to extract the key rare substances from old batteries and use them for new ones.

So I'm not sure we will see cheap storage until we see different types of battery chemistry coming out - for example by trading increased weights for lower costs. Weight is not a major issue when you use in stationary.

I think the different types of battery chemistry is happening.

Home/power grid batteries don't need to be small or light.

I've heard of a couple of household installations from this company for example:

https://redflow.com/

My instinct is that they would be for much larger homes than mine though.
(Although... I can see that they advertise that they start at 10kWh and that's pretty small)

The battery tech is zinc/bromine and uses a salt water electrolyte (I think).