[Continuation] The behaviour of US police officers - part 2 - Page 48

Thermal · 7th February 2023, 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created.

Dave

I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters.

The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control.

jimbob · 7th February 2023, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters.

The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Dave Rogers was meaning.

But that the cops are the ones who are supposed to be trained, the ones who signed up for the job, the ones with the drawn guns in these cases. Adequate training must include managing members of the public who might be confused or panicking because nobody has [ETA, previously] pointed a loaded pistol at them.

Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them. The most positive interpretation of such shootings is when the cops allowed themselves to panic and they were incompetent. Something that should be weeded out before they are given guns and sent to interact with the public.

Dave Rogers · 7th February 2023, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters.

I've seen good police work close up, mercifully rarely, and what it involves is taking charge of the situation with the minimum of force and coercion necessary. The relationship between the police and the citizen is never a completely equal one because the police have the right and duty to maintain order, and to restore it when it's disrupted. What that means is that, if for any reason the police need to detain someone, they should do so competently, and should take charge in an orderly manner. If you feel it's sometimes appropriate to tell the police how to do their job, then your policing system is already broken, and if this is compounded by a belief on the part of the police that deadly force is appropriate to repair the situation, then yes, that's horrifying.

Dave

Aridas · 7th February 2023, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created.

Dave

Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them.

Darat · 7th February 2023, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them.

And that is the appropriate label - we know some even wear gang identification symbols.

jimbob · 7th February 2023, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them.

Yup, that's what I was alluding to with the highlighted

Originally Posted by jimbob

I'm pretty sure that's not what Dave Rogers was meaning.

But that the cops are the ones who are supposed to be trained, the ones who signed up for the job, the ones with the drawn guns in these cases. Adequate training must include managing members of the public who might be confused or panicking because nobody has [ETA, previously] pointed a loaded pistol at them.

Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them. The most positive interpretation of such shootings is when the cops allowed themselves to panic and they were incompetent. Something that should be weeded out before they are given guns and sent to interact with the public.

bruto · 7th February 2023, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters.

The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control.

Yes, it is revolting, and you're right in theory. But in the mean time, they do have that control, that power, and the guns to enforce it. They ought, then, to be both trained and restrained not to make a bloody mess of it.

Thermal · 7th February 2023, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers

I've seen good police work close up, mercifully rarely, and what it involves is taking charge of the situation with the minimum of force and coercion necessary. The relationship between the police and the citizen is never a completely equal one because the police have the right and duty to maintain order, and to restore it when it's disrupted. What that means is that, if for any reason the police need to detain someone, they should do so competently, and should take charge in an orderly manner. If you feel it's sometimes appropriate to tell the police how to do their job, then your policing system is already broken, and if this is compounded by a belief on the part of the police that deadly force is appropriate to repair the situation, then yes, that's horrifying.

Dave

While I see your point (and may have responded a bit off-target to your earlier post), I tend to see cops as more of an Andy Griffith, rather than a Harry Callahan. Yes, they have police powers and the authority to exercise them, but basically we are on even footing. If the citizen taking control solves the problem, then fine. Problem solved. I prefer police to have the absolute least amount of power as is practical. That's what saves us from these cops that think they are soldiers and combatants in enemy territory.

I think that if a cop draws his weapon, he should have to face a review to actually prove his life was in danger. If he fails to do so, he loses his weapon. By such a standard (similar to the one the Camden NJ police have adopted), cops might not think of themselves as Special Forces.

erlando · 8th February 2023, 02:59 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

While I see your point (and may have responded a bit off-target to your earlier post), I tend to see cops as more of an Andy Griffith, rather than a Harry Callahan. Yes, they have police powers and the authority to exercise them, but basically we are on even footing. If the citizen taking control solves the problem, then fine. Problem solved. I prefer police to have the absolute least amount of power as is practical. That's what saves us from these cops that think they are soldiers and combatants in enemy territory.

Problem is that the overwhelming evidence points to that cops tend to see themselves as Harry Calahan...

Bob001 · 8th February 2023, 03:20 AM

Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams.

Quote:

All five Memphis Police officers charged in the fatal beating of Tyre Nichols failed to capture the entire encounter on their body-worn cameras, and three of the five fully removed their body-worn cameras during the still-active scene, according to newly-released police documents obtained by Insider.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html

erlando · 8th February 2023, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html

Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses.

bruto · 8th February 2023, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses.

It should be prima facie evidence of intent to commit a crime, as much as pulling down your pants would be if you were suspected of rape.

plague311 · 8th February 2023, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by erlando

Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses.

I don't really understand why they have the ability to be turned off at all. Being removed should be grounds for punishment for sure. I can't imagine a scenario where a cop would be required to remove his camera. Like you said, no excuses.

Darat · 8th February 2023, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

I don't really understand why they have the ability to be turned off at all. Being removed should be grounds for punishment for sure. I can't imagine a scenario where a cop would be required to remove his camera. Like you said, no excuses.

Break time?

JoeMorgue · 8th February 2023, 10:48 AM

I mean cops gotta pee and stuff.

autumn1971 · 8th February 2023, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I mean cops gotta pee and stuff.

How often is your torso pointed at your junk when you pee?
Scoliosis that severe I would think prevents one from being a cop
😁

Aridas · 8th February 2023, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I mean cops gotta pee and stuff.

Cameras running in bathrooms, in general, is going into problematic territory, regardless, yes, and is mostly illegal in a number of states. Beyond that, camera problems are a thing, I'm pretty sure, and shouldn't be held against a cop.

Cameras ceasing function for whatever reason right before nastiness occurred, though, absolutely should be held against a cop.

Thermal · 8th February 2023, 12:29 PM

What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio?

These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial.

ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes.

Bob001 · 8th February 2023, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

I mean cops gotta pee and stuff.

They might also want to talk to witnesses and victims and informants who don't want to be recorded. There's also the practical problem of massive data storage. But there shouldn't be any question that an arrest and everything preceding it from the first moment of the encounter should be on tape.

bruto · 8th February 2023, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

They might also want to talk to witnesses and victims and informants who don't want to be recorded. There's also the practical problem of massive data storage. But there shouldn't be any question that an arrest and everything preceding it from the first moment of the encounter should be on tape.

In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...."

Thermal · 8th February 2023, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...."

"...toss a knife in this mother ******* hand and grease him.

Wait, was this thing still on?"

tyr_13 · 8th February 2023, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html

Displaying consciousness of guilt.

mgidm86 · 8th February 2023, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio?

These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial.

ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes.

Agree. Haven't put any thought into this really but ya.

For the record I have peed with a GoPro on my chest and one on my head and saw nothing in the video that would be a privacy issue. And like you said, too bad anyways.

Maybe cop cams are different but GoPros freak out sometimes and you have to shut them down or even remove the battery to reset them. Sometimes I get a corrupt video file due to it getting hot.

I wonder where they put the batteries? GoPros last an hour when recording. I use an external battery too but it's bulky. I'll have to look up these cop cams.

mgidm86 · 8th February 2023, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

"...toss a knife in this mother ******* hand and grease him.

Wait, was this thing still on?"

PitPat · 8th February 2023, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...."

My understanding, which is limited, is that police body cameras should NEVER be turned off. Or intentionally obscured.

Yeah there is battery life but don't think it's common. And there are cams in the cop car so if you can get somebody in one, either witness or suspect, there shouldn't be a need to turn off the body cam.

bruto · 8th February 2023, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by PitPat

My understanding, which is limited, is that police body cameras should NEVER be turned off. Or intentionally obscured.

Yeah there is battery life but don't think it's common. And there are cams in the cop car so if you can get somebody in one, either witness or suspect, there shouldn't be a need to turn off the body cam.

Probably so, but I can see some possibly reasonable exceptions here. But there's no reason why that event, too, should not be closely regulated. It's really not hard to say what you're doing, and while the practice might be unfamiliar to many cops,I don't think it's all that hard to be truthful.

lomiller · 8th February 2023, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them.

Often the civilian can't even hear the orders to begin with as the stress of the situation can trigger auditory exclusion.

If the cops are trained in such a way as to be afraid when they are dealing with citizenry, they could suffer from auditory exclusion as well, so they wouldn't hear instructions from other officers. Instead of being trained to be calm and take control of the situation many departments train their offers to be afraid because they could die any time. This piss poor training is a major factor in the rampant bad decision making on the part of so many officers.

lomiller · 8th February 2023, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on?

They could record video of other people in the washroom and distribute the video around the station...

PitPat · 8th February 2023, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Often the civilian can't even hear the orders to begin with as the stress of the situation can trigger auditory exclusion.

If the cops are trained in such a way as to be afraid when they are dealing with citizenry, they could suffer from auditory exclusion as well, so they wouldn't hear instructions from other officers. Instead of being trained to be calm and take control of the situation many departments train their offers to be afraid because they could die any time. This piss poor training is a major factor in the rampant bad decision making on the part of so many officers.

This is a good point, in my opinion. There's a big shortage of officers in urban areas because they're fleeing for the quiet suburbs with better pay. So urban areas are stuck with the leftovers.

So what's the solution? Not sure but I think it would have to be with education, at minimum 4 year college degree. And a huge entry-level pay increase, but that won't be cheap. So, crime is bad but willing to pay more the next 10 years on your property taxes?

Thermal · 8th February 2023, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

They could record video of other people in the washroom and distribute the video around the station...

You must use more exotic washrooms than I. Mine are pretty much views of guy's backs standing at urinals and washing their hands and stuff.

lomiller · 8th February 2023, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

You must use more exotic washrooms than I. Mine are pretty much views of guy's backs standing at urinals and washing their hands and stuff.

Not all officers are male so it wouldn't just be video of the mens washroom, and even in the mens washroom many people would object to being videoed even from behind as they urinated.

lomiller · 8th February 2023, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by PitPat

This is a good point, in my opinion. There's a big shortage of officers in urban areas because they're fleeing for the quiet suburbs with better pay. So urban areas are stuck with the leftovers.

So what's the solution? Not sure but I think it would have to be with education, at minimum 4 year college degree. And a huge entry-level pay increase, but that won't be cheap. So, crime is bad but willing to pay more the next 10 years on your property taxes?

I'm not sure that the urban officers are any better trained though, and most 4 year degrees still wouldn't cover practical day-to-day aspects of police-work. Anyway here is a good video explaining some of the issues, including the issue that most officers just don't want to do things differently

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Thermal · 8th February 2023, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Not all officers are male so it wouldn't just be video of the mens washroom, and even in the mens washroom many people would object to being videoed even from behind as they urinated.

Ok, but I am still skeptical that such footage would be passed around the station. It ain't but so interesting, even in the ladies room. It's not like they are having lingerie pillow fights in there.

If we trust police with killing and arrest powers, is it really a bridge too far to trust that they won't circulate lacivious scenes of stall doors opening and closing? The individual police have no means of accessing footage anyway; they just wear the recording devices and turn them in.

But all this is kind of a red herring. 90% of a cops day is driving around or sitting in their cars. Just turning the recording on when interacting with civilians should suffice, and severe penalties when turned off without adequate explanation, and criminal charges if a suspect is injured when the device deactivated.

Blue Mountain · 8th February 2023, 10:58 PM

I wonder what the fallout would be if the "off" switch on body cams was a "delayed off" that kept recording for another three minutes?

bluesjnr · 9th February 2023, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Blue Mountain

I wonder what the fallout would be if the "off" switch on body cams was a "delayed off" that kept recording for another three minutes?

That would give them time to find a local public toilet to "subdue" the perp.

smartcooky · 9th February 2023, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio?

These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial.

ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes.

Yep.. its called spoliation of evidence, and it is a serious crime which should be automatically career ending for any member of Law Enforcement or Judiciary.... but of course this is America.

Gulliver Foyle · 9th February 2023, 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Break time?

Gardaí can't turn off their Tetra radios during break. Ni can't see how it could be different for bodycams (not that I'm all too gone on bodycams in the first place)

Dave Rogers · 9th February 2023, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by Thermal

If we trust police with killing and arrest powers, is it really a bridge too far to trust that they won't circulate lascivious scenes of stall doors opening and closing?

Based on recent cases of officers tweeting crime scene photos, yes, apparently it is.

Dave

ZiprHead · 9th February 2023, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by PitPat

My understanding, which is limited, is that police body cameras should NEVER be turned off. Or intentionally obscured.

Yeah there is battery life but don't think it's common. And there are cams in the cop car so if you can get somebody in one, either witness or suspect, there shouldn't be a need to turn off the body cam.

The Axon Bodycam 3, the standard police use, says 12 hour battery life.

https://www.axon.com/products/axon-body-3

Dr. Keith · 9th February 2023, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Not all officers are male so it wouldn't just be video of the mens washroom, and even in the mens washroom many people would object to being videoed even from behind as they urinated.

How would the cops ever see the footage?

Do they routinely have access to other forms of evidence for jokey fun reasons?

7th February 2023, 07:35 AM	#1881
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created. Dave I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters. The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

7th February 2023, 08:03 AM	#1882
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,228	Originally Posted by Thermal I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters. The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control. I'm pretty sure that's not what Dave Rogers was meaning. But that the cops are the ones who are supposed to be trained, the ones who signed up for the job, the ones with the drawn guns in these cases. Adequate training must include managing members of the public who might be confused or panicking because nobody has [ETA, previously] pointed a loaded pistol at them. Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them. The most positive interpretation of such shootings is when the cops allowed themselves to panic and they were incompetent. Something that should be weeded out before they are given guns and sent to interact with the public.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK Last edited by jimbob; 7th February 2023 at 08:36 AM.

7th February 2023, 08:13 AM	#1883
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,719	Originally Posted by Thermal I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters. I've seen good police work close up, mercifully rarely, and what it involves is taking charge of the situation with the minimum of force and coercion necessary. The relationship between the police and the citizen is never a completely equal one because the police have the right and duty to maintain order, and to restore it when it's disrupted. What that means is that, if for any reason the police need to detain someone, they should do so competently, and should take charge in an orderly manner. If you feel it's sometimes appropriate to tell the police how to do their job, then your policing system is already broken, and if this is compounded by a belief on the part of the police that deadly force is appropriate to repair the situation, then yes, that's horrifying. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

7th February 2023, 08:32 AM	#1884
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,772	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers It's kind of horrifying that you're able to state it that weakly. The police should always assume the burden of taking control, and do it appropriately. Many, if not all, of these utterly unjustifiable killings stem from the incompetence to do so of the officers on the scene. They then use lethal force to resolve a situation they themselves have created. Dave Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

7th February 2023, 08:35 AM	#1885
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by Aridas Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them. And that is the appropriate label - we know some even wear gang identification symbols.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

7th February 2023, 08:46 AM	#1886
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,228	Originally Posted by Aridas Unfortunately, that's extremely difficult to believe, much of the time. Certainly, quite a few can be passed off as incompetence, but far too many police killings are probably better treated as the result of malice. When there are literally multiple police gangs that pointedly and intentionally engage in murdering the innocent that have been found in just one city (and lie like frickin' crazy, of course), for example, that's a pretty good indicator that an all too substantial portion of utterly unjustifiable killings aren't actually due to incompetence, even where incompetence may be claimed to try to defend them. Yup, that's what I was alluding to with the highlighted Originally Posted by jimbob I'm pretty sure that's not what Dave Rogers was meaning. But that the cops are the ones who are supposed to be trained, the ones who signed up for the job, the ones with the drawn guns in these cases. Adequate training must include managing members of the public who might be confused or panicking because nobody has [ETA, previously] pointed a loaded pistol at them. Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them. The most positive interpretation of such shootings is when the cops allowed themselves to panic and they were incompetent. Something that should be weeded out before they are given guns and sent to interact with the public.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

7th February 2023, 09:03 AM	#1887
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by Thermal I think it's kind of horrifying that you'd find it horrifying. I mean, cops are people. I'm a people. They are not my Nazi overlords, and we should be able to work things out like adults, within certain parameters. The whole idea of cowing before the police is revolting to me. They should not willingly be treated like jackboot thugs. If you willingly give them that power, they will take it, and some will abuse it. I absolutely do not want them to have absolute control. Yes, it is revolting, and you're right in theory. But in the mean time, they do have that control, that power, and the guns to enforce it. They ought, then, to be both trained and restrained not to make a bloody mess of it.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

7th February 2023, 09:34 AM	#1888
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	Originally Posted by Dave Rogers I've seen good police work close up, mercifully rarely, and what it involves is taking charge of the situation with the minimum of force and coercion necessary. The relationship between the police and the citizen is never a completely equal one because the police have the right and duty to maintain order, and to restore it when it's disrupted. What that means is that, if for any reason the police need to detain someone, they should do so competently, and should take charge in an orderly manner. If you feel it's sometimes appropriate to tell the police how to do their job, then your policing system is already broken, and if this is compounded by a belief on the part of the police that deadly force is appropriate to repair the situation, then yes, that's horrifying. Dave While I see your point (and may have responded a bit off-target to your earlier post), I tend to see cops as more of an Andy Griffith, rather than a Harry Callahan. Yes, they have police powers and the authority to exercise them, but basically we are on even footing. If the citizen taking control solves the problem, then fine. Problem solved. I prefer police to have the absolute least amount of power as is practical. That's what saves us from these cops that think they are soldiers and combatants in enemy territory. I think that if a cop draws his weapon, he should have to face a review to actually prove his life was in danger. If he fails to do so, he loses his weapon. By such a standard (similar to the one the Camden NJ police have adopted), cops might not think of themselves as Special Forces.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

8th February 2023, 02:59 AM	#1889
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,405	Originally Posted by Thermal While I see your point (and may have responded a bit off-target to your earlier post), I tend to see cops as more of an Andy Griffith, rather than a Harry Callahan. Yes, they have police powers and the authority to exercise them, but basically we are on even footing. If the citizen taking control solves the problem, then fine. Problem solved. I prefer police to have the absolute least amount of power as is practical. That's what saves us from these cops that think they are soldiers and combatants in enemy territory. Problem is that the overwhelming evidence points to that cops tend to see themselves as Harry Calahan...
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,405	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

8th February 2023, 03:20 AM	#1890
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,557	Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams. Quote: All five Memphis Police officers charged in the fatal beating of Tyre Nichols failed to capture the entire encounter on their body-worn cameras, and three of the five fully removed their body-worn cameras during the still-active scene, according to newly-released police documents obtained by Insider. https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html

8th February 2023, 07:49 AM	#1891
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,405	Originally Posted by Bob001 Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams. https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses.
erlando Master Poster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,405	__________________ "If it can grow, it can evolve" - Eugenie Scott, Ph.D Creationism disproved? Evolution IS a blind watchmaker

8th February 2023, 07:57 AM	#1892
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by erlando Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses. It should be prima facie evidence of intent to commit a crime, as much as pulling down your pants would be if you were suspected of rape.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

8th February 2023, 09:20 AM	#1893
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 13,789	Originally Posted by erlando Turning off body cams should carry heavy penalties. A cop should be responsible for their bodycam being on and running at any time they are performing their duty. No excuses. I don't really understand why they have the ability to be turned off at all. Being removed should be grounds for punishment for sure. I can't imagine a scenario where a cop would be required to remove his camera. Like you said, no excuses.
	__________________ “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

8th February 2023, 10:45 AM	#1894
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,117	Originally Posted by plague311 I don't really understand why they have the ability to be turned off at all. Being removed should be grounds for punishment for sure. I can't imagine a scenario where a cop would be required to remove his camera. Like you said, no excuses. Break time?
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

8th February 2023, 10:48 AM	#1895
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	I mean cops gotta pee and stuff.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

8th February 2023, 11:13 AM	#1896
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,091	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I mean cops gotta pee and stuff. How often is your torso pointed at your junk when you pee? Scoliosis that severe I would think prevents one from being a cop 😁
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,091	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

8th February 2023, 12:19 PM	#1897
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,772	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I mean cops gotta pee and stuff. Cameras running in bathrooms, in general, is going into problematic territory, regardless, yes, and is mostly illegal in a number of states. Beyond that, camera problems are a thing, I'm pretty sure, and shouldn't be held against a cop. Cameras ceasing function for whatever reason right before nastiness occurred, though, absolutely should be held against a cop.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

8th February 2023, 12:29 PM	#1898
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio? These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial. ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 8th February 2023 at 12:30 PM.

8th February 2023, 12:30 PM	#1899
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,557	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue I mean cops gotta pee and stuff. They might also want to talk to witnesses and victims and informants who don't want to be recorded. There's also the practical problem of massive data storage. But there shouldn't be any question that an arrest and everything preceding it from the first moment of the encounter should be on tape.

8th February 2023, 01:00 PM	#1900
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by Bob001 They might also want to talk to witnesses and victims and informants who don't want to be recorded. There's also the practical problem of massive data storage. But there shouldn't be any question that an arrest and everything preceding it from the first moment of the encounter should be on tape. In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...."
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

8th February 2023, 01:31 PM	#1901
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	Originally Posted by bruto In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...." "...toss a knife in this mother ******* hand and grease him. Wait, was this thing still on?"
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

8th February 2023, 03:24 PM	#1902
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 17,534	Originally Posted by Bob001 Killer cops turned off and took off their bodycams. https://www.yahoo.com/news/5-officer...024558939.html Displaying consciousness of guilt.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

8th February 2023, 05:14 PM	#1903
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by Thermal What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio? These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial. ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes. Agree. Haven't put any thought into this really but ya. For the record I have peed with a GoPro on my chest and one on my head and saw nothing in the video that would be a privacy issue. And like you said, too bad anyways. Maybe cop cams are different but GoPros freak out sometimes and you have to shut them down or even remove the battery to reset them. Sometimes I get a corrupt video file due to it getting hot. I wonder where they put the batteries? GoPros last an hour when recording. I use an external battery too but it's bulky. I'll have to look up these cop cams.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624

8th February 2023, 05:15 PM	#1904
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by Thermal "...toss a knife in this mother ******* hand and grease him. Wait, was this thing still on?"
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624

8th February 2023, 07:17 PM	#1905
PitPat Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,782	Originally Posted by bruto In such circumstances, such as interviewing an informant, or going to the bathroom, it seems trivially obvious that an announcement could be made of the event. Really, how hard would it be for a cop to say "I'm turning off my body cam for the moment, in order to...." My understanding, which is limited, is that police body cameras should NEVER be turned off. Or intentionally obscured. Yeah there is battery life but don't think it's common. And there are cams in the cop car so if you can get somebody in one, either witness or suspect, there shouldn't be a need to turn off the body cam.

8th February 2023, 07:49 PM	#1906
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by PitPat My understanding, which is limited, is that police body cameras should NEVER be turned off. Or intentionally obscured. Yeah there is battery life but don't think it's common. And there are cams in the cop car so if you can get somebody in one, either witness or suspect, there shouldn't be a need to turn off the body cam. Probably so, but I can see some possibly reasonable exceptions here. But there's no reason why that event, too, should not be closely regulated. It's really not hard to say what you're doing, and while the practice might be unfamiliar to many cops,I don't think it's all that hard to be truthful.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

8th February 2023, 08:09 PM	#1907
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,801	Originally Posted by jimbob Instead we have the supposed experts giving contradictory or unclear orders, and shooting innocent people when they fail to obey all of them. Often the civilian can't even hear the orders to begin with as the stress of the situation can trigger auditory exclusion. If the cops are trained in such a way as to be afraid when they are dealing with citizenry, they could suffer from auditory exclusion as well, so they wouldn't hear instructions from other officers. Instead of being trained to be calm and take control of the situation many departments train their offers to be afraid because they could die any time. This piss poor training is a major factor in the rampant bad decision making on the part of so many officers.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

8th February 2023, 08:14 PM	#1908
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,801	Originally Posted by Thermal What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? They could record video of other people in the washroom and distribute the video around the station...
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

8th February 2023, 08:33 PM	#1909
PitPat Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,782	Originally Posted by lomiller Often the civilian can't even hear the orders to begin with as the stress of the situation can trigger auditory exclusion. If the cops are trained in such a way as to be afraid when they are dealing with citizenry, they could suffer from auditory exclusion as well, so they wouldn't hear instructions from other officers. Instead of being trained to be calm and take control of the situation many departments train their offers to be afraid because they could die any time. This piss poor training is a major factor in the rampant bad decision making on the part of so many officers. This is a good point, in my opinion. There's a big shortage of officers in urban areas because they're fleeing for the quiet suburbs with better pay. So urban areas are stuck with the leftovers. So what's the solution? Not sure but I think it would have to be with education, at minimum 4 year college degree. And a huge entry-level pay increase, but that won't be cheap. So, crime is bad but willing to pay more the next 10 years on your property taxes?

8th February 2023, 08:48 PM	#1910
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	Originally Posted by lomiller They could record video of other people in the washroom and distribute the video around the station... You must use more exotic washrooms than I. Mine are pretty much views of guy's backs standing at urinals and washing their hands and stuff.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

8th February 2023, 09:10 PM	#1911
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 12,801	Originally Posted by Thermal You must use more exotic washrooms than I. Mine are pretty much views of guy's backs standing at urinals and washing their hands and stuff. Not all officers are male so it wouldn't just be video of the mens washroom, and even in the mens washroom many people would object to being videoed even from behind as they urinated.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

8th February 2023, 10:14 PM	#1913
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	Originally Posted by lomiller Not all officers are male so it wouldn't just be video of the mens washroom, and even in the mens washroom many people would object to being videoed even from behind as they urinated. Ok, but I am still skeptical that such footage would be passed around the station. It ain't but so interesting, even in the ladies room. It's not like they are having lingerie pillow fights in there. If we trust police with killing and arrest powers, is it really a bridge too far to trust that they won't circulate lacivious scenes of stall doors opening and closing? The individual police have no means of accessing footage anyway; they just wear the recording devices and turn them in. But all this is kind of a red herring. 90% of a cops day is driving around or sitting in their cars. Just turning the recording on when interacting with civilians should suffice, and severe penalties when turned off without adequate explanation, and criminal charges if a suspect is injured when the device deactivated.
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet

8th February 2023, 10:58 PM	#1914
Blue Mountain Resident Skeptical Hobbit Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Waging war on woo-woo in Winnipeg Posts: 7,286	I wonder what the fallout would be if the "off" switch on body cams was a "delayed off" that kept recording for another three minutes?
	__________________ The social illusion reigns to-day upon all the heaped-up ruins of the past, and to it belongs the future. The masses have never thirsted after truth. They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Gustav Le Bon, The Crowd, 1895 (from the French)

9th February 2023, 12:54 AM	#1915
bluesjnr Professional Nemesis for Hire Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Home. Posts: 10,970	Originally Posted by Blue Mountain I wonder what the fallout would be if the "off" switch on body cams was a "delayed off" that kept recording for another three minutes? That would give them time to find a local public toilet to "subdue" the perp.
	__________________ "OTP? I don' need no steenkin' OTP!"

9th February 2023, 01:46 AM	#1916
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,118	Originally Posted by Thermal What's the worst that can happen by peeing with a body cam on? A video of the top of a urinal? Maybe the view of the back of a stall door, with some unflattering audio? These guys kill. I think the minor privacy intrusion is pretty trivial. ETA: when interacting with people, cams on and no excuses. Off is willful destruction of evidence, among other crimes. Yep.. its called spoliation of evidence, and it is a serious crime which should be automatically career ending for any member of Law Enforcement or Judiciary.... but of course this is America.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.