Split Thread: Difference between Blackface and Drag

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

The poster I originally replied to seemed to think that as long as it was a respectable portrayal of a woman (unlike the vast amount of drag acts) it was acceptable. My reply to that poster was that there's no amount of respect that would make blackface acceptable to me

OK - get that part - thanks.

Now what was the point you wanted to make by posting "Bad example - swap for Ender's Game" and then after being asked about that post "He played a Maori in full Tā moko face"?

Perhaps it would be better to simply restate your point that is relevant to this thread with no examples?

[Manger Douse]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Because you were trying to claim an air of authority that you did not actually have. How long have you been on this board that you would need this explained to you?

When you add "making inflammatory claims about nefarious motives" and "implying but refusing to directly claim relevant experience even when pressed" together, you get someone that you really, really shouldn't put a lot of stock into their claims.

But I do have an authority of what most drag acts are like from working in theatre - particularly in Brighton. I've seen dozens of shows over 25 years. What else do you want me to tell you? My job roll?

[Manger Douse]

Originally Posted by Darat

OK - get that part - thanks.

Now what was the point you wanted to make by posting "Bad example - swap for Ender's Game" and then after being asked about that post "He played a Maori in full Tā moko face"?

Perhaps it would be better to simply restate your point that is relevant to this thread with no examples?

Kingsley didn't do blackface in Gandi as I assumed but did in Enders Game

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

But I do have an authority of what most drag acts are like from working in theatre - particularly in Brighton. I've seen dozens of shows over 25 years. What else do you want me to tell you? My job roll?

Perhaps in Brighton most drag shows are done only to parody women, I can't speak to that. I haven't been to Brighton, so that may be the only place in the world where your "vast majority" are done to humiliate women claim would apply.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

Kingsley didn't do blackface in Gandi as I assumed but did in Enders Game

I don't think it's usually called "blackface" unless someone is trying to imitate or parody people with African ancestry.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Evidence?

Tell you what. You show me the gays and trans people making this demand (and showing how they made it) and I'll get a reliable range for the number of gay and trans people in the world and we'll divide your number by my number and multiply it by 100 and see what we get.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

I'm making that claim from working in theatres and venues in Brighton, London and Birmingham the last 25 years

Gay venues? Give me an example of the drag acts that were on at these venues. Are you talking about Widow Twankey? Dame Edna Everage? Or actual drag?

Typically (in the past at least) drag acts are put on at gay bars and I've seen many of these over the years. This is the kind of drag acts that I'm used to. More recently we have been seeing drag acts that came up a different way. Courtney Act for example was discovered on Australian Idol and appears to have played more mainstream venues.

And, as someone mentioned before, there are the drag acts that play to largely straight audiences with a high percentage of women. I'm not really familiar with those.

But I can't see how Courtney Act could be considered offensive to women.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by Robin

But I can't see how Courtney Act could be considered offensive to women.

Great example of mansplaining here. Well done.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by Manger Douse

I'm not saying it's for revenge - I'm saying that apparently because homosexuals are an oppressed group that makes it's ok for them (and only them?) to dress up and pretend to be women for laughs (and the vast majority of drag acts ARE done for laughs - big tits, big hair, inch of slap ect ect)

Are you sure you aren't talking about pantomime dames?

Drag acts usually contain comedy of course but that doesn't imply that they are mocking anyone.

Is it women that are being made fun of? Or the whole idea of gender conformity?

Can you find a YouTube video of the sort of act you are talking about, just as I have pointed out well known drag acts that are clearly not mocking women. Then I can get an idea of what you are talking about.

Quote:

Women are also an oppressed group yet I would feel very uncomfortable for them, or indeed any oppressed group to dress up and use exaggerated mannerisms of another oppressed group

On the other hand I tend not to become offended on behalf of other people. Especially when that group give every indication of liking or not being at all offended, in fact quite the opposite.

I think it is best not to tell others what they should be offended by. If women in general want to make a case for it then let them.

[Robin]

Originally Posted by lionking

Great example of mansplaining here. Well done.

Typical of your level of inane substance free comment. Well done

You might at least have taken some time to at least try to find out what "mansplaining" means. Or would that have been too difficult?

[autumn1971]

Originally Posted by Brainster

In the oppression Olympics, drag queens and transwomen are on the gold medal platform.

Nope. Still you right-wing snowflakes who scream ,(ironically like drag queens,) whenever anyone suggests that your feelings aren’t the only ones that exist.

God, you are loud and have overwhelming power in government, so stop playing the victims.
You are the definition that you all invented for snowflakes

[Checkmite]

Are drag queens supposed to be copying the behaviors and mannerisms of women, though?

Yes, they have fake breasts and wear....female-ISH clothing (I will concede, even though it is not clothing women would actually wear but tends to be unique to drag acts IMO); but I find it difficult to agree with the notion that they "act like women", or "portray women". They act like drag queens. They use mannerisms particular to drag queens, not women, and I would argue that the entirety of drag shows' humor revolves around and is even dependent on the fact that the audience is aware that the performers are men, which adds intentional and unavoidable subtext and innuendo to the jokes and banter.

[Rolfe]

You seriously think these costumes and mannerisms just happened to develop with no reference to women at all?

[Checkmite]

I believe they were always intended to reference men who wear women's clothing.

I could certainly be wrong about that; but I've never seen a drag performance that seemed to me to be a genuine straight attempt to mock or mimic actual women's appearance and mannerisms, even in a critical mean-spirited way.

[Rolfe]

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by Darat

But as you point out a key difference is that one was started by oppressors as part of the oppression, the other by an oppressed group.

If we restrict the scope of consideration to cisgender women and cisgender men, drag was started by the oppressor group to satirize the oppressed group.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

If we restrict the scope of consideration to cisgender women and cisgender men, drag was started by the oppressor group to satirize the oppressed group.

Putting aside such a ridiculous restriction for now, what is your evidence for this?

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by wareyin

Putting aside such a ridiculous restriction for now, what is your evidence for this?

The fact that drag was invented by cisgender men as a parody of femininity.

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[Thermal]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

If we restrict the scope of consideration to cisgender women and cisgender men, drag was started by the oppressor group to satirize the oppressed group.

I don't think we can assume such a clean single point origin. Men dressed as women for entertainment goes back many centuries. I'd think there was a kind of organic branching in there along the way, with some performers finding a form of self expression, and others throwing on a dress for a laugh.

Tim Conway and the Pythons are one kind of drag, but their shows satirize targets pretty equally. In the here and now, drag queens are primarily a subset of LBGTQ culture. Benny Hill did not intend to be taken seriously. RuPaul does.

In the Wiki page for RuPaul's Drag Race, it says the opening phrase for 12 seasons was "Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win". They had to change it because so many contestants were coming out as trans. And really interestingly, a trans man entered. When a woman who presents as a man dressed as a woman is a drag queen, I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The fact that drag was invented by cisgender men as a parody of femininity.

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Where has that been established? I thought what we now call drag today emerged out of the "Molly Houses" from back in the 18th century? A separate tradition to that which had male actors paying female characters because there weren't female actors.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

I don't think we can assume such a clean single point origin. Men dressed as women for entertainment goes back many centuries. I'd think there was a kind of organic branching in there along the way, with some performers finding a form of self expression, and others throwing on a dress for a laugh.

Tim Conway and the Pythons are one kind of drag, but their shows satirize targets pretty equally. In the here and now, drag queens are primarily a subset of LBGTQ culture. Benny Hill did not intend to be taken seriously. RuPaul does.

In the Wiki page for RuPaul's Drag Race, it says the opening phrase for 12 seasons was "Gentlemen, start your engines, and may the best woman win". They had to change it because so many contestants were coming out as trans. And really interestingly, a trans man entered. When a woman who presents as a man dressed as a woman is a drag queen, I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore.

"People entertaining other people by dressing up" seems to me to be a good summary.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

"People entertaining other people by dressing up" seems to me to be a good summary.

Words with more specific meanings are kind of handy tho. I could use your definition to describe a dominatrix, but when planning a children's party, it's crazy convenient to have the scope narrowed down.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Words with more specific meanings are kind of handy tho. I could use your definition to describe a dominatrix, but when planning a children's party, it's crazy convenient to have the scope narrowed down.

Drag these days encompasses a wide range of entertainment so you aren't going to get anything but a general descriptor. I had a thought I could have added a "traditionally female dress and make-up" but a quick look shows that isn't wide enough, even something like "glamorous" isn't wide enough. I think my "definition" is about the only one that will work if you want to encompass all drag.

All you need to do if you want to specify anything further is just add it - so if you wanted a drag queen for a kid's party you'd simple say "a drag act for children's party". There are some clown shows that are not suitable for children so when wanting a clown for a kids party you'd want to make sure they are "a clown act for a children's party".

The world unfortunately is never as simple as we think we would like it to be.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The fact that drag was invented by cisgender men as a parody of femininity.

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When you're asked for evidence, pulling out your opinion and calling it a fact isn't the point scoring move you seem to think it is. Rather, it seems to demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about but have formed an iron-clad opinion on the topic regardless of your ignorance.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Darat

Drag these days encompasses a wide range of entertainment so you aren't going to get anything but a general descriptor. I had a thought I could have added a "traditionally female dress and make-up" but a quick look shows that isn't wide enough, even something like "glamorous" isn't wide enough. I think my "definition" is about the only one that will work if you want to encompass all drag.

All you need to do if you want to specify anything further is just add it - so if you wanted a drag queen for a kid's party you'd simple say "a drag act for children's party". There are some clown shows that are not suitable for children so when wanting a clown for a kids party you'd want to make sure they are "a clown act for a children's party".

The world unfortunately is never as simple as we think we would like it to be.

Agreed, but your definition is watered down to the point of being meaningless. By your standard, literally any performer of screen or stage is in drag. If there are...whatever...drag astronauts, then fine, put them in as an edge case that doesn't fit neatly in the general term. We really don't benefit from an all-inclusive definition that borders on defining nothing at all.

[d4m10n]

Originally Posted by wareyin

When you're asked for evidence, pulling out your opinion and calling it a fact isn't the point scoring move you seem to think it is. Rather, it seems to demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about but have formed an iron-clad opinion on the topic regardless of your ignorance.

Whom do you think invented drag?

Originally Posted by Darat

I thought what we now call drag today emerged out of the "Molly Houses" from back in the 18th century?

Molly houses populated by the aforementioned cisgender men.

[Rolfe]

Maybe this is off-topic but I can't resist it.

https://twitter.com/iamrachelwolf/st...35722840735745

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

The fact that drag was invented by cisgender men as a parody of femininity.

Not even a pretense of reasoned argument? Pathetic.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Whom do you think invented drag?

Molly houses populated by the aforementioned cisgender men.

2 points.

1) that doesn't cover the claim of being created as a "parody of femininity."
2) it is very difficult when we look back so far to an illegal subculture to be certain of anything, but the hints we do get seem to indicate that there was that very old phrase "cross dressing" happening which could indicate early evidence of a trans woman.

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Whom do you think invented drag?

As Darat points out, your claim was not just about who invented drag, but why they did so as well. You haven't provided any evidence for either aspect.

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Molly houses populated by the aforementioned cisgender men.

Your evidence that they were cisgender is....?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by wareyin

...snip...

Your evidence that they were cisgender is....?

I think d4m10n is using cisgender with the definition of "born sex matches gender/gender expression". Certainly the Mollies were frequented by a large percentage of males who had sex with males* or as d4m10n would put it "cisgender males who had sex with cisgender males".


*I very purposefully used the phrase "males who had sex with males" as we need to be very careful about applying our current definitions onto those in the past, so wanted to avoid the word "homosexual" and also "men". Like the time I grew up in males who had sex with other males weren't considered "men" by the culture - they were sodomites, they were queers, they were pansies and so on.

[dann]

A Night With Tina: MIDSUMMA PULLS SHOW FROM 2021 PROGRAM OVER ACCUSATIONS OF BLACKFACE (StarObserver, March 31, 2021)

[wareyin]

Originally Posted by Darat

I think d4m10n is using cisgender with the definition of "born sex matches gender/gender expression". Certainly the Mollies were frequented by a large percentage of males who had sex with males* or as d4m10n would put it "cisgender males who had sex with cisgender males".


*I very purposefully used the phrase "males who had sex with males" as we need to be very careful about applying our current definitions onto those in the past, so wanted to avoid the word "homosexual" and also "men". Like the time I grew up in males who had sex with other males weren't considered "men" by the culture - they were sodomites, they were queers, they were pansies and so on.

It seems to me that d4m10n has assumed the Mollies were cisgender because they didn't claim to be trans, despite trans not being a concept at the time. I'm trying to see if he actually has any reason or evidence to support his claims.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by wareyin

It seems to me that d4m10n has assumed the Mollies were cisgender because they didn't claim to be trans, despite trans not being a concept at the time. I'm trying to see if he actually has any reason or evidence to support his claims.

Ah right. There is contemporary evidence of men wearing female clothing and wigs at Mollies.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

Are drag queens supposed to be copying the behaviors and mannerisms of women, though?

Yes, they have fake breasts and wear....female-ISH clothing (I will concede, even though it is not clothing women would actually wear but tends to be unique to drag acts IMO); but I find it difficult to agree with the notion that they "act like women", or "portray women". They act like drag queens. They use mannerisms particular to drag queens, not women, and I would argue that the entirety of drag shows' humor revolves around and is even dependent on the fact that the audience is aware that the performers are men, which adds intentional and unavoidable subtext and innuendo to the jokes and banter.

Were minstrel actors supposed to be copying the behaviors and mannerisms of black people, though?

Yes, they artificially darken their skin and wear... thick lippish makeup (I will concede, even though the bright red exaggerated lips are not something seen on actual black people, but tends to be unique to minstrel shows, IMO); but I find it difficult to agree with the notion that they "act like black people", or "portray black people". They act like minstrel actors. They use mannerisms particular to minstrel actors, not black people, and I would argue that the entirety of minstrel shows' humor revolves around and is even dependent on the fact that the audience is aware that the performers are white, which adds intentional and unavoidable subtext and innuendo to the jokes and banter.

Thank you for supporting my point.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by d4m10n

If we restrict the scope of consideration to cisgender women and cisgender men, drag was started by the oppressor group to satirize the oppressed group.

The sexual orientation and hypothetical gender identity of the performers is irrelevant.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Darat

Where has that been established? I thought what we now call drag today emerged out of the "Molly Houses" from back in the 18th century? A separate tradition to that which had male actors paying female characters because there weren't female actors females weren't allowed to act.

There, that's more accurate now.

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Darat

"People entertaining other people by dressing up" seems to me to be a good summary.

How does that not also apply to minstrel shows?

[Emily's Cat]

Originally Posted by Darat

2 points.

1) that doesn't cover the claim of being created as a "parody of femininity."
2) it is very difficult when we look back so far to an illegal subculture to be certain of anything, but the hints we do get seem to indicate that there was that very old phrase "cross dressing" happening which could indicate early evidence of a trans woman.

It's conflation bingo!

1) Not all cases of males portraying females are a parody of femininity. But some are. Broad brushing the entirety of drag as if there is no difference between drag and Shakespearean male actors playing a female role is falacious and borders on disingenuous. This is like saying that minstrel shows aren't a "parody of black people" because of Lawrence Oliver's portrayal in Othello. It's bait and switch logic playing fast-and-loose with language in order to obscure the meaning.

3) "Could" sure, in some cases, could. But transvestitism is a thing entirely separate from gender identity. There are many, many, many documented cases of males enjoying female-typical clothing for sexual pleasure, and who have absolutely zero actual dysphoria or belief they should have been the opposite sex. This phenomenon - which remains a paraphilic disorder in the current DSM-5 - is exactly WHY gender recognition has historically required a diagnosis and therapy prior to any social or surgical transition.

[plague311]

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Were minstrel actors supposed to be copying the behaviors and mannerisms of black people, though?

Yes, they artificially darken their skin and wear... thick lippish makeup (I will concede, even though the bright red exaggerated lips are not something seen on actual black people, but tends to be unique to minstrel shows, IMO); but I find it difficult to agree with the notion that they "act like black people", or "portray black people". They act like minstrel actors. They use mannerisms particular to minstrel actors, not black people, and I would argue that the entirety of minstrel shows' humor revolves around and is even dependent on the fact that the audience is aware that the performers are white, which adds intentional and unavoidable subtext and innuendo to the jokes and banter.

Thank you for supporting my point.

Where the **** did you pull this from? Googling it I can't even get a match. Usually we source **** here when we post it because it's rude to not. I don't know why anyone here should acknowledge or give a **** about this quote.