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Old 27th January 2023, 06:02 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Nope. It is an innermost sense of self which needn't manifest to the outside world in the form of behavior
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_behavior We have Internal as well as external behaviours.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Is there some reason to believe the Mollies were "trans," in whatever sense you take the term? If not, can we safely assume they were your ordinary gays-who-call-themselves-men?
Again not something I have claimed. All I have said is that I believe we have some slight evidence to think some people who frequented Molly houses would be considered today to be trans.

And it is very funny to see you wanting to call men who had sex with men back in the 18th century "gay" given your views that we have to wait for Stoller before we can have people who think they are a different sex to the body they were born with. I wonder who the medical professionals in the late 1920s were doing sex change operations on 40 years before Stoller come up with his jargon?
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Old 27th January 2023, 06:27 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Do the Mollies show up in that wiki entry?
That has nothing to do with what I was responding to. Your premise is false.
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Old 27th January 2023, 06:41 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All I have said is that I believe we have some slight evidence to think some people who frequented Molly houses would be considered today to be trans.
People who are today considered trans have a specific gender identity and sense of self; we've been given no reason to believe that the denizens of the Molly houses thought of themselves as women rather than men.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And it is very funny to see you wanting to call men who had sex with men back in the 18th century "gay" given your views that we have to wait for Stoller before we can have people who think they are a different sex to the body they were born with.
I don't really care what you call them, but transgender remains a matter of self-identification rather than observable behavior.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I wonder who the medical professionals in the late 1920s were doing sex change operations on 40 years before Stoller come up with his jargon?
Name one of the patients and we can look into how they self-identified.
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Old 27th January 2023, 07:01 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't really care what you call them, but transgender remains a matter of self-identification rather than observable behavior.
Do you really think that transgender people exhibit no observable behavior concerning their being transgender? Nothing at all?

Hint: You're missing something very obvious.

What about homosexuality? Do you also consider that to be a self-identification with no observable behavior?
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Old 27th January 2023, 07:06 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
People who are today considered trans have a specific gender identity and sense of self; we've been given no reason to believe that the denizens of the Molly houses thought of themselves as women rather than men.
That is not true, you have been given reasons you just don't agree with those reasons.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I don't really care what you call them, but transgender remains a matter of self-identification rather than observable behavior.
As does gay, as does straight.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Name one of the patients and we can look into how they self-identified.
Lili Elbe
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Old 27th January 2023, 07:13 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As does gay, as does straight.
Or, rather, as much as gay or as much as straight, which is to say not at all.
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Old 27th January 2023, 08:10 PM   #287
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Old 27th January 2023, 08:26 PM   #288
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I'm going to dissent from damion. Trans remains a matter of expert third party diagnosis, following personal interactions with the subject. Gazing across time and space, at accounts or images of men in drag, and saying "I can tell by looking that they are probably trans" is like George Bush saying he could see in Putin's eyes that he was a good man.
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Old 28th January 2023, 05:53 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm going to dissent from damion. Trans remains a matter of expert third party diagnosis, following personal interactions with the subject. Gazing across time and space, at accounts or images of men in drag, and saying "I can tell by looking that they are probably trans" is like George Bush saying he could see in Putin's eyes that he was a good man.
Sorry, I'm not sure what aspect of the conversation you are responding to. Historical transgenderism? Observable behaviors?
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Old 28th January 2023, 06:08 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm going to dissent from damion. Trans remains a matter of expert third party diagnosis, following personal interactions with the subject. Gazing across time and space, at accounts or images of men in drag, and saying "I can tell by looking that they are probably trans" is like George Bush saying he could see in Putin's eyes that he was a good man.
As ever you are building strawmen.
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Old 28th January 2023, 07:50 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Do you really think that transgender people exhibit no observable behavior concerning their being transgender? Nothing at all?
I've been told that gender expression is not a reliable indicator of gender identity by the folks who claim to be well-versed in such matters. If a man presents himself in masculine outfits six days a week, but cross-dresses at Sunday brunch, what are we to conclude?

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What about homosexuality? Do you also consider that to be a self-identification with no observable behavior?
No, see my reply immediately below.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As does gay, as does straight.
If a man claims to be straight but cruises for men at tea houses, we have some reason to be skeptical of his self-identification. There is nothing that can cause one to be skeptical of self-identification with respect to gender identity, however, because it is an entirely internal and subjective experience.
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Old 28th January 2023, 07:57 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Lili Elbe
Pretty clear cut case of self-identifying with the opposite of one's birth sex. I'd say she wasn't performing drag (the topic here) but doing something else which might be confused with drag by those who look at snapshots instead of the full reel.
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Old 28th January 2023, 08:13 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
…snip…

If a man claims to be straight but cruises for men at tea houses, we have some reason to be skeptical of his self-identification. There is nothing that can cause one to be skeptical of self-identification, however, because gender identity is an entirely internal experience.
We’ve known for a long time that there are men who have sex with men who do not identify as gay or homosexual or bisexual. Who someone has sex with does not tell you whether they identify as gay or not so your claimed external behaviour marker is the same as any external behaviour marker we may use to determine whether someone identifies as trans or not.

You seem to have lost the plot about what is being discussed by the way. Which is if you care to remember your claim that cisgender men were the originators of drag. Which of course given your recent line of argumentation means that drag originated no earlier than the 1990s - when the word cisgender was first coined and used….
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Old 28th January 2023, 08:14 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Pretty clear cut case of self-identifying with the opposite of one's birth sex. I'd say she wasn't performing drag (the topic here) but doing something else which might be confused with drag by those who look at snapshots instead of the full reel.
As I said above youíve lost the plot on what we were discussing which is that drag was originated sometime in the 1990s by cisgender menÖ..
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Old 28th January 2023, 08:22 AM   #295
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My claim was that the males who originated drag identified themselves as men rather than women.

(I do not believe Lili Elbe was among them.)
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Old 28th January 2023, 01:17 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
My claim was that the males who originated drag identified themselves as men rather than women.

(I do not believe Lili Elbe was among them.)
Well you said cisgender men, and they didnít exist until the 1990sÖ

Iíll drop that now as I think Iíve rather belaboured the point.

Who are you saying originated drag?
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Old 28th January 2023, 01:44 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Well you said cisgender men, and they didnít exist until the 1990s
You don't believe human males who self-identified as men existed until the 90s?
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Old 28th January 2023, 01:46 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You don't believe human males who self-identified as men existed until the 90s?
Itís your argument not mine.
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Old 28th January 2023, 02:03 PM   #299
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Don't recall mentioning the 90s.
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Old 28th January 2023, 03:09 PM   #300
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Who originated drag?
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Old 28th January 2023, 04:08 PM   #301
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That depends on how many elements of modern drag you'd care to require.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-...all#Precedents

https://www.timlawrence.info/article...ure-of-voguing
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Old 28th January 2023, 04:57 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As does gay, as does straight.

Oh gosh, hadn't you heard? The bigots got their way! From now on, if someone wants to become officially gay, they have to be assessed by a psychiatrist and "live as a gay person" for 6 months before they get the Certificate of Gayness. Nobody who hasn't gone through that process can claim to be gay.

I trust you'll make sure you're in proper compliance ASAP.

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Old 28th January 2023, 05:00 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
You don't believe human males who self-identified as men existed until the 90s?

I think that the officially-sanctioned full effect should be adult human males. The anti-transgender-identity police will be contacting you shortly to arrange corrective education.
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Old 29th January 2023, 01:59 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That depends on how many elements of modern drag you'd care to require.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-...all#Precedents

https://www.timlawrence.info/article...ure-of-voguing
Didn't ask about a subset of drag.
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Old 29th January 2023, 07:59 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Didn't ask about a subset of drag.
I don't think it is merely a subset. From the second link, we see the origins of drag shows in the U.S. during the roaring 20s.
Quote:
Held once a year, the balls came to feature a procession known as the ‘parade of the fairies’, which involved drag queen contestants sashaying through the auditorium in preparation for a costume competition.
It is possible that similarly performative shows were independently invented at cross-dressing balls throughout Europe.

FWIW, I do think the "show" aspect is necessary to make any sort of comparison to blackface minstrelsy per the split OP. Merely cross-dressing and dancing is not enough to make the analogy work, there has to be a hyperbolic performance of femininity by people who have only ever been subjected to the social expectations and privileges of masculinity.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 02:49 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Weíve known for a long time that there are men who have sex with men who do not identify as gay or homosexual or bisexual. Who someone has sex with does not tell you whether they identify as gay or not so your claimed external behaviour marker is the same as any external behaviour marker we may use to determine whether someone identifies as trans or not.
That is a really weird way to view sexuality, Darat. A male who has sex with other males would, at the very least, be considered bisexual by pretty much anyone. What they want to call themselves is irrelevant. Sexuality isn't a matter of what word one identifies with, it's a matter of the sex to which one is attracted.

If it weren't, then the eighties would have been rather different - all those gay men could have just identified as straight and kept on sleeping with men... and nobody would beat them up for it, because they were "straight".

You yourself are gay. Does that mean that you have a sexual orientation toward the male half of the species? Or does it mean you just like the label but you really dig p-in-v sex all day every day?

Let's not get so wrapped up in playing word games that we forget that there are actual, real meanings behind them.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 02:51 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I said above youíve lost the plot on what we were discussing which is that drag was originated sometime in the 1990s by cisgender menÖ..
Well... I do think that their objection was to those who have been conflating drag performers with transgender identified males, and using that conflation to insinuate transphobia as an ad hominem.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 03:00 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well... I do think that their objection was to those who have been conflating drag performers with transgender identified males, and using that conflation to insinuate transphobia as an ad hominem.
You do realise your post as a reply to my post makes absolutely no sense at all?
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Old 3rd February 2023, 03:14 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That is a really weird way to view sexuality, Darat. A male who has sex with other males would, at the very least, be considered bisexual by pretty much anyone. What they want to call themselves is irrelevant. Sexuality isn't a matter of what word one identifies with, it's a matter of the sex to which one is attracted.

If it weren't, then the eighties would have been rather different - all those gay men could have just identified as straight and kept on sleeping with men... and nobody would beat them up for it, because they were "straight".

You yourself are gay. Does that mean that you have a sexual orientation toward the male half of the species? Or does it mean you just like the label but you really dig p-in-v sex all day every day?

Let's not get so wrapped up in playing word games that we forget that there are actual, real meanings behind them.
The ďmen who sex with menĒ i.e. those who do not identify as gay or bisexual or homosexual is a real group. It was AIDS that revealed this group, they were initially ďmissedĒ in the communication about the risks and prevention because those messages and actions were aimed at homosexual and bisexual men (for instance giving out free condoms in gay bars and clubs) and since these men do not consider themselves homosexual or bisexual they missed out on the messages and the actions. It is anything but ďplaying word gamesĒ it is about real life risk and death.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 04:34 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well... I do think that their objection was to those who have been conflating drag performers with transgender identified males, and using that conflation to insinuate transphobia as an ad hominem.
I was just trying to differentiate between males who put on femininity as a matter of performative "dress up" from those who are hoping to be subjected to the norms of femininity full time, 24/7. In retrospect, adding that level of nuance probably wasn't worth it.
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Old 6th February 2023, 05:43 AM   #311
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I will go all the way back to my first post in this thread, from before it was this thread, and make n amendment.
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think the difference is that drag shows are not inherently misogynistic. If anything, they make more fun of men than women.
I think the difference is that drag shows are not, within the greater western cultural context, considered misogynistic whereas blackface is definitely considered racist.
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Old 6th February 2023, 06:05 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I will go all the way back to my first post in this thread, from before it was this thread, and make n amendment.


I think the difference is that drag shows are not, within the greater western cultural context, considered misogynistic whereas blackface is definitely considered racist.
Words with no meaning.
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Old 6th February 2023, 06:12 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Words with no meaning.
Which one don't you understand?
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Old 6th February 2023, 07:16 AM   #314
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Considered by whom, though. A lot of people do consider drag shows to be misogynistic, while clearly some people do not. I don't recognise this "greater western cultural context" thing. At various points in this same cultural context all sorts of things were considered to be just fine and jolly good fun, which were later recognised as offensive to a particular group of people.

I thought the point of the thread was to discuss whether drag shows are moving from the "jolly good fun" context towards being recognised as offensive to women. Saying "lots of people think it's all fine" is just begging the question.
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Old 6th February 2023, 07:34 AM   #315
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The thread seems to be asking the question "why is drag thought not to be misogynistic, while blackface is thought to be racist?"; and the answer is "because drag shows are not considered misogynistic whereas blackface is definitely considered racist".

Glad we got that sorted out, then.
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Old 6th February 2023, 10:20 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Considered by whom, though. A lot of people do consider drag shows to be misogynistic, while clearly some people do not. I don't recognise this "greater western cultural context" thing.
Funny that you should put "a lot" and "some" in the places that you have. I would have guessed it was the other way around based on personal experience. I've not heard hard numbers either way.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
At various points in this same cultural context all sorts of things were considered to be just fine and jolly good fun, which were later recognised as offensive to a particular group of people.
Sure. Context always matters. Today give or take 50 years, blackface is nearly universally seen as racist. Drag being a form of misogyny does not have nearly the same level of universality.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I thought the point of the thread was to discuss whether drag shows are moving from the "jolly good fun" context towards being recognised as offensive to women. Saying "lots of people think it's all fine" is just begging the question.
This thread was split from a different one. It has no explicit purpose other than, apparently, being too off-topic from the original.

That being said, do "lots of people drag shows to be misogynistic"? What are "lots"?

I did a quick search to see who were going to drag shows. It is, admittedly, not a simple search since RuPaul's TV show dominates the results. Take that out and I started getting drag racing, like with cars. Best source I found was this paper published in 2022: AUDIENCE DIVERSITY AND WELL-BEING AT UK DRAG EVENTS (PDF warning).

It's only one study with a meh collection method, so take that for what it's worth. They report 60+% female drag show attendance. Again, not the best source, but it is at least a data point.
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Old 6th February 2023, 12:44 PM   #317
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Should someone maybe take a vote? Perhaps commission a properly-weighted opinion poll? Even then, one would need sequential polls over quite a few years to see whether there was actually a significant shift in public opinion.

It probably depends on the nature of your acquaintance. I certainly know a lot of people who think that many modern drag acts are offensive to women. Fewer who think it's all just good clean fun.
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Old 6th February 2023, 01:01 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Should someone maybe take a vote? Perhaps commission a properly-weighted opinion poll? Even then, one would need sequential polls over quite a few years to see whether there was actually a significant shift in public opinion.

It probably depends on the nature of your acquaintance. I certainly know a lot of people who think that many modern drag acts are offensive to women. Fewer who think it's all just good clean fun.
It might depend on the act.
I think there are drag acts that many would find offensive.
I also think that there are drag acts that many of those same people would not find offensive.

It also might depend on a person's position on other topics.
A person who was against homosexuality might be anti-drag because of the relationship with homosexuality rather than the actual content of a drag act.
Similar with the trans-issue.

I actually never heard drag as being misogynistic until it came up in trans conversations. Not saying it hasn't, but it had never crossed my mind before. I suspect a lot of people never considered the issue before encountering it similarly.

I know my wife never thought about it like that. She used to bartend in a club in Chicago that did drag shows back in the 80s. Mostly, she remembers sharing makeup tips.
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Old 6th February 2023, 01:09 PM   #319
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It's true there are different sort of drag acts, and some are not really offensive. I mentioned much earlier in the thread that I very much enjoyed Hinge and Brackett, and would have enjoyed the act just as much if it had been two women performing it.

I also follow Le Gateau Chocolat on Twitter because I like some of his work quite a lot, though it's possible he might do other stuff that would change my opinion of him.

But some of it is horribly, and intentionally, offensive. I have asked myself, would I give up Hinge and Brackett and Le Gateau Chocolat if that were necessary to rid the world of the horrible drag acts? Maybe I would.
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Old 6th February 2023, 02:31 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Best source I found was this paper published in 2022: AUDIENCE DIVERSITY AND WELL-BEING AT UK DRAG EVENTS (PDF warning).

It's only one study with a meh collection method, so take that for what it's worth. They report 60+% female drag show attendance. Again, not the best source, but it is at least a data point.
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Perhaps commission a properly-weighted opinion poll? Even then, one would need sequential polls over quite a few years to see whether there was actually a significant shift in public opinion.
uh, yeah. Weird that no one thought about having people fill out a questionnaire about themselves and their experiences going to drag shows to your suggestion just now, right? Maybe they could do it formally and publish an academic paper on the subject.
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