[Split Thread] 6 yr old in custody after shooting teacher - Page 2

Steve · 8th January 2023, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

“Young man”? So they are prosecuting him as a man now?

Prosecuting, you say. Only in you own mind, perhaps?

Darat · 8th January 2023, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have?

Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one?

Is there a mental health crisis in America?

How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify?

Is that a squirrel?

It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.

Ryan O'Dine · 8th January 2023, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.

Well, not so fast. A second teacher could shoot the first teacher, preventing the first teacher from shooting the kid. Problem solved.

Or if the first teacher was particularly beloved, a third teacher could shoot the second teacher, and again -- problem solved.

newyorkguy · 8th January 2023, 08:54 AM

The BBC has an update on the teacher's condition plus more details on the shooting.

Quote:

The condition of a Virginia teacher left seriously injured when she was shot by a six-year-old pupil has shown signs of improvement, authorities say. Abby Zwerner suffered life-threatening injuries after she was shot with a handgun at Richneck Elementary School in the city of Newport News on Friday. Mayor Phillip Jones told the BBC that Ms Zwerner's recovery was "trending in a positive direction". But he added that she remained in a critical condition after the incident. BBC link

The parent of another child in the first grade said that after being shot, teacher Abby Zwerner's immediate response was to yell for the students to run from the classroom.

Meantime, police have not released any information as to how the child obtained the weapon. They have said the shooting followed an "altercation" and did not appear to be accidental.

Rolfe · 8th January 2023, 09:03 AM

I saw an article, again I think on the BBC, that said her condition had been downgraded from critical to serious. The subtext is more optimistic than not.

bruto · 8th January 2023, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Yes it does

“Someone who is in custody or has been taken into custody has been arrested and is being kept in prison until they can be tried in a court.”

Not when used for children. As I suspect others have already made clear before I hit the button, "custody" in the case of a child does not mean prison. Parents are default custodians of a child, and when parents fail, others take temporary or permanent or joint custody. In divorce cases it's the common term for which parents are physically responsible for things like housing, feeding, and parental decisions.

Rolfe · 8th January 2023, 09:06 AM

I remember reading about the way Norway treated children who killed (deliberately) when they were under the age of criminal responsibility - which I think is relatively high in Norway. It was all about trying to grow the kid into a responsible citizen and not at all about punishment. I don't think the results were any worse than the "string em up and throw away the key" systems.

Carrot Flower King · 8th January 2023, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

In Scotland, a 6 year old taken into police custody does not mean they are now being held in a cell. It means they have been taken to a place of safety under emergency care, which is usually a foster or children's home and they are then in effect in the custody of the social work department.

From the original article "“The individual is a 6-year-old student,” Drew said. “We have been in contact with our commonwealth attorney and some other entities to help us best get services to this young man.” it would appear he got a ride in a police car to the station as other arrangements for his care were made.

Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation, should such still exist. I also know of instances of CAMHS in-patient units being used, especially if there is a low (or higher) secure unit available (we had a lad, older than this one, admitted as an emergency overnight after taking a heavy object to someone's head one place I worked).

Nessie · 8th January 2023, 11:07 AM

Hopefully there will be news soon on the arrest of the person who was the owner of the gun.

Thermal · 8th January 2023, 12:04 PM

No one is going to state the obvious? Fine. I'll do it.

The Second Amendment *chords of angelic music plays in in the background* says the rights of the People to bear arms shall not be infringed. The 6 year old is a People. I assume the only issue is the government's intrusion to have a CCW permit?

A Good Toddler With a Gun would have shot the subject dead before he wounded the teacher. It's time we get realistic about relaxing concealed carry for kindergarteners. But I suppose our lefty Commies will have a problem with that, too. I remember when we were free. Make Recess Great Again!

newyorkguy · 8th January 2023, 12:14 PM

There was a lot of speculation in the thread about the handling of the child who did the shooting. A local newspaper, the Hampton Roads (Va.) Daily Press reported on this yesterday:

Quote:

The criminal justice system for juveniles in Virginia differs in many ways from that for adults. But when the child accused of committing a crime is only 6, the distinctions become even more pronounced. Young children charged with an offense as serious as a shooting can be ordered held at a juvenile detention facility, said Mario Lorello, a local defense lawyer and former Virginia Beach prosecutor who served on the office’s juvenile prosecution team for several years. But that’s unlikely for someone as young as 6, he said. A more probable option would be for prosecutors to ask a judge to place the child in the custody of the Department of Social Services, Lorello said. If the request is granted, social services would then decide the best housing choice under the circumstances. That could include keeping the child with their parents, placing them with another relative or putting them in foster care, he said. Daily Press link

Ian Osborne · 8th January 2023, 01:58 PM

How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

The Atheist · 8th January 2023, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Thermal

A Good Toddler With a Gun would have shot the subject dead before he wounded the teacher. It's time we get realistic about relaxing concealed carry for kindergarteners. But I suppose our lefty Commies will have a problem with that, too. I remember when we were free. Make Recess Great Again!

Just think - only 4 years ago, this was parody:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Jack by the hedge · 8th January 2023, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation...

Ah but this case is not in England. Picture the 6 year old in the town jail in Rio Bravo, with Stumpy on guard in the rocking chair nursing his trusty shotgun lessn the kid's pa tries bustin' him out.

mgidm86 · 8th January 2023, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

Well one poster came into the thread just to try and mock me for a thread title I obviously did not create, but we did tackle the word "custody". We're getting there!

bruto · 8th January 2023, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by bobdroege7

Got her in the shoulder.

Good shot, no?

As to the custody question, he should be returned to his parents, no?

Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch.

The Atheist · 9th January 2023, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by bruto

Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch.

Nice!

The Great Zaganza · 9th January 2023, 01:46 AM

We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat!

Skeptic Ginger · 9th January 2023, 03:36 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat!

Not strong enough, dilute it to 1/250th.

Puppycow · 9th January 2023, 04:03 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.

jimbob · 9th January 2023, 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.

Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful"

Nessie · 9th January 2023, 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.

When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.

The Fool · 9th January 2023, 06:16 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.

The problem is that 6 yo children are not easy targets. They are small and move quickly. I would suggest all students chairs should be hooked up to tazers and the teachers can selectively disable the children with a panel of buttons.

I know it’s a bit of a controversial suggestions but as eliminating the handguns is not possible you have to be creative.

newyorkguy · 9th January 2023, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

Been there, done that.

Quote:

The poll by the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy and The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows 71% of Americans say gun laws should be stricter, including about half of Republicans, the vast majority of Democrats and a majority of those in gun-owning households. Associated Press news link

Quote:

Multiple gun-rights groups tell TIME they are ramping up their own efforts to oppose anything that would be viewed as gun control—by pressuring Republicans to stand firmly against the proposals, and, if needed, taking the Biden administration to court to prevent potential new laws from being enacted...Representatives with Gun Owners of America, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) strongly disagree, saying many—if not all—of the House proposals infringe on existing constitutional rights and judicial precedent.

Example - Raising the age for purchasing semi-automatic weapons may go against a recent decision by a federal appeal court to overturn a California ban on sales of semiautomatic rifles to adults younger than 21. Time magazine news link

autumn1971 · 9th January 2023, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.

The problem is the intentional lack of any law enforcement agency to enforce gun laws.
If an American is convicted of a crime that invalidates their right to gun ownership the totality of the enforcement is a pinky swear that the felon will get rid of all of their guns (wink,) and definitely won’t buy any more guns on the private market (nudge and a giggle.)

smartcooky · 9th January 2023, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun.

But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.

And further than this, even when those states where there has been the will to make changes towards gun control, SCOTUS has stamped down hard on them, and on any attempts to make those changes because it has re-interpreted 2A by repeatedly dismissing the prefatory clause to result in a position that is so far from the original intent of the authors so as to be almost unrecognizable.

crescent · 9th January 2023, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have?

Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one?

Is there a mental health crisis in America?

How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify?

Is that a squirrel?

We have been taught that an armed society is a polite society.

Therefore, it seems obvious that the teacher must have been rude to the kid, and had it coming.

Originally Posted by jimbob

Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful"

More guns. Guns for everyone, everywhere, forever. That's the only possible solution. All else goes against God.

JoeMorgue · 9th January 2023, 12:13 PM

This was obviously gang on gang violence that the librul woke order is just calling "A school shooting" to pad their numbers to advance their agenda.

Norman Alexander · 9th January 2023, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Ian Osborne

How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?

More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far.

A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers.

lionking · 9th January 2023, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander

More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far.

A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers.

There are gun deaths in Australia too, but the difference is that gun laws are enforced. If police visit gun owners, either a visit to check on firearm safety, or for another reason and they know it’s a gun owner, they will check the gun safe. If the gun is not locked away or the safe not locked, goodbye gun.

Steve · 9th January 2023, 02:56 PM

American claim they need their guns to remain free. In fact Americans are prisoners to and of their guns.

bruto · 9th January 2023, 03:40 PM

Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else.

"Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs.

crescent · 9th January 2023, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by bruto

Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends and six-year old children, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else.

"Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs and of six-year old children.

You are right. But I am immature so I had to add to it anyway.

Checkmite · 9th January 2023, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US.

The gun-nuts' reaction to Sandy Hook was really a double-whammy; it effectively proved, to my mind, that gun-advocates understand innately that gun control/disarmament is the sensible and logical response to an event like Sandy Hook and the only way that so many of them felt they could argue against that was to de-legitimize the event itself and insist it be ignored.

Puppycow · 10th January 2023, 01:25 AM

Update on the story:
Abby Zwerner: Six-year-old who shot his teacher used mother's gun

Quote:

A six-year-old child used his mother's legally purchased handgun to shoot his teacher at a US school, police say.

In a news conference on Monday, police in Virginia said the child brought the pistol to school in his backpack.

The child intentionally shot his teacher, Abigail 'Abby' Zwerner, during class on Friday. Police say she managed to escort her students to safety before calling for help for herself.

Ms Zwerner, 25, remains in hospital in a stable condition.

Planigale · 10th January 2023, 01:35 AM

The gun was apparently legitimately owned by the Child's mother. Something called a Taurus which I thought was a car. The teacher was shot when trying to disarm / confiscate the gun. She was shot through her hand into her upper chest, which might fit with her trying to take the gun.

Virginia apparently has no specific laws on storage of firearms. The mother and / or father maybe guilty of a class 1 misdemeanour for allowing the child access to a loaded gun. The penalty would be confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.

Planigale · 10th January 2023, 01:38 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Update on the story:
Abby Zwerner: Six-year-old who shot his teacher used mother's gun

I think it may be hard to know what a six year old child's intention were. In part because of how much they would really understand the consequences of any actions.

Nessie · 10th January 2023, 02:44 AM

This is what is meant by taking a 6 year old into custody

https://news.sky.com/story/boy-6-who...e-say-12783503

"...police officers arrived and escorted him out of the building and into a police car.
The child has been held at a medical facility since an emergency custody order and temporary detention order were issued on Friday, Mr Drew said."

He gets a ride in a police car, whilst a place of safety, which is not a police or prison cell, is found, which in this case is a medical facility, during which the paperwork approving the detention is drawn up. That is just like the procedure in the UK.

lionking · 10th January 2023, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

This is what is meant by taking a 6 year old into custody

https://news.sky.com/story/boy-6-who...e-say-12783503

"...police officers arrived and escorted him out of the building and into a police car.
The child has been held at a medical facility since an emergency custody order and temporary detention order were issued on Friday, Mr Drew said."

He gets a ride in a police car, whilst a place of safety, which is not a police or prison cell, is found, which in this case is a medical facility, during which the paperwork approving the detention is drawn up. That is just like the procedure in the UK.

Well I’m pleased to hear that. But US authorities (like Border Control) are not shy about confining young children in cages, so my question about the custody he was subject to was not ridiculous.

Nessie · 10th January 2023, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by lionking

Well I’m pleased to hear that. But US authorities (like Border Control) are not shy about confining young children in cages, so my question about the custody he was subject to was not ridiculous.

You originally said "...but it’s reported that the child is in custody. I didn’t think that a child under the age of criminal responsibility could even be detained."

Maybe you were thinking more of how could they be detained and the practicalities of that, as you were thinking of kids being kept in cages, rather than how you worded it, by questioning whether they can be detained?

The police in the UK and I presume the USA, can literally seize a child and remove them to a place of safety and one of the reasons for doing so is if that child has committed a serious crime, along with they are with a parent who has committed a serious crime or because of parental neglect that is life-threatening.

The procedure is designed to be fast, a signature on a form and a phone call to the place of safety.

8th January 2023, 06:07 AM	#41
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	Originally Posted by angrysoba “Young man”? So they are prosecuting him as a man now? Prosecuting, you say. Only in you own mind, perhaps?
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

8th January 2023, 06:15 AM	#42
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,119	Originally Posted by angrysoba The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have? Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one? Is there a mental health crisis in America? How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify? Is that a squirrel? It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

8th January 2023, 08:52 AM	#43
Ryan O'Dine OD’ing on Damitol Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walk in an ever expanding Archimedean spiral and you'll find me eventually Posts: 2,105	Originally Posted by Darat It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school. Well, not so fast. A second teacher could shoot the first teacher, preventing the first teacher from shooting the kid. Problem solved. Or if the first teacher was particularly beloved, a third teacher could shoot the second teacher, and again -- problem solved.
	__________________ I collect people like you in little formaldehyde bottles in my basement. (Not a threat. A hobby.)

8th January 2023, 09:03 AM	#45
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	I saw an article, again I think on the BBC, that said her condition had been downgraded from critical to serious. The subtext is more optimistic than not.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

8th January 2023, 09:03 AM	#46
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by lionking Yes it does “Someone who is in custody or has been taken into custody has been arrested and is being kept in prison until they can be tried in a court.” Not when used for children. As I suspect others have already made clear before I hit the button, "custody" in the case of a child does not mean prison. Parents are default custodians of a child, and when parents fail, others take temporary or permanent or joint custody. In divorce cases it's the common term for which parents are physically responsible for things like housing, feeding, and parental decisions.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi) Last edited by bruto; 8th January 2023 at 09:06 AM.

8th January 2023, 08:54 AM	#44
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 12,885	The BBC has an update on the teacher's condition plus more details on the shooting. Quote: The condition of a Virginia teacher left seriously injured when she was shot by a six-year-old pupil has shown signs of improvement, authorities say. Abby Zwerner suffered life-threatening injuries after she was shot with a handgun at Richneck Elementary School in the city of Newport News on Friday. Mayor Phillip Jones told the BBC that Ms Zwerner's recovery was "trending in a positive direction". But he added that she remained in a critical condition after the incident. BBC link The parent of another child in the first grade said that after being shot, teacher Abby Zwerner's immediate response was to yell for the students to run from the classroom. Meantime, police have not released any information as to how the child obtained the weapon. They have said the shooting followed an "altercation" and did not appear to be accidental.

8th January 2023, 09:06 AM	#47
Rolfe Adult human female Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NT 150 511 Posts: 50,593	I remember reading about the way Norway treated children who killed (deliberately) when they were under the age of criminal responsibility - which I think is relatively high in Norway. It was all about trying to grow the kid into a responsible citizen and not at all about punishment. I don't think the results were any worse than the "string em up and throw away the key" systems.
	__________________ "The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

8th January 2023, 10:00 AM	#48
Carrot Flower King Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Northumberland, UK Posts: 3,610	Originally Posted by Nessie In Scotland, a 6 year old taken into police custody does not mean they are now being held in a cell. It means they have been taken to a place of safety under emergency care, which is usually a foster or children's home and they are then in effect in the custody of the social work department. From the original article "“The individual is a 6-year-old student,” Drew said. “We have been in contact with our commonwealth attorney and some other entities to help us best get services to this young man.” it would appear he got a ride in a police car to the station as other arrangements for his care were made. Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation, should such still exist. I also know of instances of CAMHS in-patient units being used, especially if there is a low (or higher) secure unit available (we had a lad, older than this one, admitted as an emergency overnight after taking a heavy object to someone's head one place I worked).

8th January 2023, 11:07 AM	#49
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,356	Hopefully there will be news soon on the arrest of the person who was the owner of the gun.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

8th January 2023, 12:04 PM	#50
Thermal Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: In the Troll Ignoring Section Posts: 21,898	No one is going to state the obvious? Fine. I'll do it. The Second Amendment chords of angelic music plays in in the background says the rights of the People to bear arms shall not be infringed. The 6 year old is a People. I assume the only issue is the government's intrusion to have a CCW permit? A Good Toddler With a Gun would have shot the subject dead before he wounded the teacher. It's time we get realistic about relaxing concealed carry for kindergarteners. But I suppose our lefty Commies will have a problem with that, too. I remember when we were free. Make Recess Great Again!
	__________________ "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect" -Mark Twain "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet Last edited by Thermal; 8th January 2023 at 12:15 PM.

8th January 2023, 12:14 PM	#51
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 12,885	There was a lot of speculation in the thread about the handling of the child who did the shooting. A local newspaper, the Hampton Roads (Va.) Daily Press reported on this yesterday: Quote: The criminal justice system for juveniles in Virginia differs in many ways from that for adults. But when the child accused of committing a crime is only 6, the distinctions become even more pronounced. Young children charged with an offense as serious as a shooting can be ordered held at a juvenile detention facility, said Mario Lorello, a local defense lawyer and former Virginia Beach prosecutor who served on the office’s juvenile prosecution team for several years. But that’s unlikely for someone as young as 6, he said. A more probable option would be for prosecutors to ask a judge to place the child in the custody of the Department of Social Services, Lorello said. If the request is granted, social services would then decide the best housing choice under the circumstances. That could include keeping the child with their parents, placing them with another relative or putting them in foster care, he said. Daily Press link

8th January 2023, 01:58 PM	#52
Ian Osborne JREF Kid Tagger Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,634	How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns?
	__________________ "Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine "The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan

8th January 2023, 02:08 PM	#54
Jack by the hedge Safely Ignored Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14,412	Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King Quite: in England it's more likely to be a local authority's secure accomodation... Ah but this case is not in England. Picture the 6 year old in the town jail in Rio Bravo, with Stumpy on guard in the rocking chair nursing his trusty shotgun lessn the kid's pa tries bustin' him out.

8th January 2023, 02:24 PM	#55
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns? Well one poster came into the thread just to try and mock me for a thread title I obviously did not create, but we did tackle the word "custody". We're getting there!
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	__________________ Why bother?

8th January 2023, 05:55 PM	#56
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Originally Posted by bobdroege7 Got her in the shoulder. Good shot, no? As to the custody question, he should be returned to his parents, no? Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

9th January 2023, 01:42 AM	#57
The Atheist The Grammar Tyrant Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 33,265	Originally Posted by bruto Well, they were thinking about sending him home with a note from his teacher, but there was a glitch. Nice!
	__________________ The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

9th January 2023, 01:46 AM	#58
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,546	We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat!
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

9th January 2023, 03:36 AM	#59
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 93,401	Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza We need 5cc of Thoughts &Prayers, stat! Not strong enough, dilute it to 1/250th.

9th January 2023, 04:03 AM	#60
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,884	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns? If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

9th January 2023, 04:12 AM	#61
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 29,228	Originally Posted by Puppycow If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed. Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful"
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Public/Compulsory Expenditure on healthcare https://data.oecd.org/chart/60Tt Every year since 1990 the US Public healthcare spending has been greater than the UK as a proportion of GDP. More US Tax goes to healthcare than the UK

9th January 2023, 04:22 AM	#62
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 14,356	Originally Posted by Puppycow If a whole class full of kindergartners getting murdered won't do it, I'd say it would have to be a very high number indeed. When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US. That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun. But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible.
	__________________ Audiophile/biker/sceptic

9th January 2023, 06:16 AM	#63
The Fool Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 14,972	Originally Posted by Darat It also takes us to the scenario that if teachers were armed as many politicians and others seem to have put forward would she have shot the kid dead? Because that is why people want the teachers armed so they can "deal with" the criminal brandishing a gun in a school. The problem is that 6 yo children are not easy targets. They are small and move quickly. I would suggest all students chairs should be hooked up to tazers and the teachers can selectively disable the children with a panel of buttons. I know it’s a bit of a controversial suggestions but as eliminating the handguns is not possible you have to be creative.
	__________________ And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good. Need we ask anyone to tell us these things? R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance) Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.

9th January 2023, 08:54 AM	#64
newyorkguy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: NY Posts: 12,885	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns? Been there, done that. Quote: The poll by the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy and The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows 71% of Americans say gun laws should be stricter, including about half of Republicans, the vast majority of Democrats and a majority of those in gun-owning households. Associated Press news link Quote: Multiple gun-rights groups tell TIME they are ramping up their own efforts to oppose anything that would be viewed as gun control—by pressuring Republicans to stand firmly against the proposals, and, if needed, taking the Biden administration to court to prevent potential new laws from being enacted...Representatives with Gun Owners of America, the Second Amendment Foundation, and the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) strongly disagree, saying many—if not all—of the House proposals infringe on existing constitutional rights and judicial precedent. Example - Raising the age for purchasing semi-automatic weapons may go against a recent decision by a federal appeal court to overturn a California ban on sales of semiautomatic rifles to adults younger than 21. Time magazine news link

9th January 2023, 09:38 AM	#65
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,091	Originally Posted by Nessie When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US. That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun. But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible. The problem is the intentional lack of any law enforcement agency to enforce gun laws. If an American is convicted of a crime that invalidates their right to gun ownership the totality of the enforcement is a pinky swear that the felon will get rid of all of their guns (wink,) and definitely won’t buy any more guns on the private market (nudge and a giggle.)
autumn1971 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,091	__________________ 'A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggardly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, superservicable, finical rogue;... the son and heir of a mongral bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition."' -The Bard

9th January 2023, 11:52 AM	#66
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,118	Originally Posted by Nessie When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US. That reform means removing guns from people unsuitable to have them and preventing them from getting more guns. That is how gun control works in the rest of the western world. Countries have made it difficult for people who should have guns, to get them, and easy to seize guns with those no longer suitable to have them. People with certain mental health problems, gangs, youths and certain criminal convictions find it very difficult to get a gun. That does not happen in the USA. It is easy for anyone to get a gun. But, it also became clear, that not only was there a lack of will for change, there is also an inability to get guns under control. The problem is just too big. There are too many guns in the hands of too many unsuitable people, who will not easily give up those guns, for meaningful gun control to be possible. And further than this, even when those states where there has been the will to make changes towards gun control, SCOTUS has stamped down hard on them, and on any attempts to make those changes because it has re-interpreted 2A by repeatedly dismissing the prefatory clause to result in a position that is so far from the original intent of the authors so as to be almost unrecognizable.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

9th January 2023, 12:12 PM	#67
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,316	Originally Posted by angrysoba The time has come to ask the hard questions such as… how many doors did this school have? Would a good child with a gun have stopped a bad one? Is there a mental health crisis in America? How can we push that to the agenda to distract from the problem of guns in society while also doing nothing about the problem we identify? Is that a squirrel? We have been taught that an armed society is a polite society. Therefore, it seems obvious that the teacher must have been rude to the kid, and had it coming. Originally Posted by jimbob Your avatar could be appropriate here, but it'd probably have to also say, "this is fine... But more guns would be helpful" More guns. Guns for everyone, everywhere, forever. That's the only possible solution. All else goes against God.

9th January 2023, 12:13 PM	#68
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,041	This was obviously gang on gang violence that the librul woke order is just calling "A school shooting" to pad their numbers to advance their agenda.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th January 2023, 12:37 PM	#69
Norman Alexander Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: Dharug & Gundungurra Posts: 14,232	Originally Posted by Ian Osborne How many 'incidents' will it take before America realises it needs to have a real, in-depth discussion on guns? More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far. A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers.
	__________________ _{...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015}

9th January 2023, 12:52 PM	#70
lionking In the Peanut Gallery Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 52,900	Originally Posted by Norman Alexander More than 30,000 gun deaths per year, year on year, hasn't made a whit of difference so far. A conclusion I can draw is Putin does not need to invade the USA. He only needs to promote gun rights, and Americans will kill themselves in plague numbers. There are gun deaths in Australia too, but the difference is that gun laws are enforced. If police visit gun owners, either a visit to check on firearm safety, or for another reason and they know it’s a gun owner, they will check the gun safe. If the gun is not locked away or the safe not locked, goodbye gun.
	__________________ A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill

9th January 2023, 02:56 PM	#71
Steve Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sydney Nova Scotia Posts: 12,193	American claim they need their guns to remain free. In fact Americans are prisoners to and of their guns.
	__________________ Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"

9th January 2023, 03:40 PM	#72
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 34,263	Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else. "Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs.
	__________________ Like many humorless and indignant people, he is hard on everybody but himself, and does not perceive it when he fails his own ideal (Molière) A pedant is a man who studies a vacuum through instruments that allow him to draw cross-sections of the details (John Ciardi)

9th January 2023, 03:53 PM	#73
crescent Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Colorado Posts: 5,316	Originally Posted by bruto Of course an armed society is a polite society. Unless you're sure you can outdraw your opponent and all his friends and six-year old children, you're going to be circumspect if not downright obsequious. Genuine respect or fellowship is something else. "Polite society" advocates want us to be prisoners, not so much of our own guns, but of theirs and of six-year old children. You are right. But I am immature so I had to add to it anyway.

9th January 2023, 06:39 PM	#74
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Posts: 28,086	Originally Posted by Nessie When there was little gun control change and indeed, instead there were conspiracy theories about Sandy Hook, for me, that was evidence that no shooting would cause the necessary demand and political will for a wholesale reform of gun control in the US. The gun-nuts' reaction to Sandy Hook was really a double-whammy; it effectively proved, to my mind, that gun-advocates understand innately that gun control/disarmament is the sensible and logical response to an event like Sandy Hook and the only way that so many of them felt they could argue against that was to de-legitimize the event itself and insist it be ignored.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

10th January 2023, 01:25 AM	#75
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 27,884	Update on the story: Abby Zwerner: Six-year-old who shot his teacher used mother's gun Quote: A six-year-old child used his mother's legally purchased handgun to shoot his teacher at a US school, police say. In a news conference on Monday, police in Virginia said the child brought the pistol to school in his backpack. The child intentionally shot his teacher, Abigail 'Abby' Zwerner, during class on Friday. Police say she managed to escort her students to safety before calling for help for herself. Ms Zwerner, 25, remains in hospital in a stable condition.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

10th January 2023, 01:35 AM	#76
Planigale Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: 49 North Posts: 5,931	The gun was apparently legitimately owned by the Child's mother. Something called a Taurus which I thought was a car. The teacher was shot when trying to disarm / confiscate the gun. She was shot through her hand into her upper chest, which might fit with her trying to take the gun. Virginia apparently has no specific laws on storage of firearms. The mother and / or father maybe guilty of a class 1 misdemeanour for allowing the child access to a loaded gun. The penalty would be confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.