Split Thread: 6 yr old in custody after shooting teacher

[Thermal]

This is the third school shooting in this district in the last 18 months. Superintendent George Parker is facing a possible termination himself.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/virginia-...gs-over-months is

[ponderingturtle]

Are there any standards on these firearm safety devices or can I sell a cardboard box as a gun safe?

[Bob001]

Guns don't kill people. Dogs with guns kill people.

Quote:

A dog stepped on a loaded rifle, fatally shooting a passenger in his owner’s car during a hunting trip in Geuda Springs, Kan., sheriff’s deputies said.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-hunting-trip/

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Are there any standards on these firearm safety devices or can I sell a cardboard box as a gun safe?

Well, you'd probably have to have a big label saying "GUN SAFE" and charge a lot of money for it.

[mgidm86]

Saw this in the "fired the supervisor" article (poor grammar is not mine). Just didn't know if it was ever mentioned here.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/us/ne...ote/index.html

Quote:

Under Virginia law, it’s a misdemeanor for an adult leaves a loaded, unsecured firearm in such a way it could endanger a child under the age of 14.

Amazing that this still happened with such strict laws.

[newyorkguy]

Originally Posted by Thermal

This is the third school shooting in this district in the last 18 months. Superintendent George Parker is facing a possible termination himself...

At a school board meeting this evening Supt. Parker was in fact terminated.

Also, the New York Times and other news outlets are reporting officials at the school were warned three separate times on the day of the shooting that a student, the one who eventually shot the teacher, may have been in possession of a firearm.

Quote:

In the hours before a 6-year-old boy shot his first-grade teacher in Virginia this month, school leaders were warned three times that the boy might have a gun, a lawyer for the teacher said on Wednesday, including requests from employees to search the boy’s pockets and a report from another child who said that the boy had shown him the gun at recess. New York Times link

The lawyer for the teacher who was shot, Abigail Zwerner, is reportedly preparing a lawsuit alleging gross negligence on the part of the school's administrators.

[Thermal]

Not sure about the law in Virginia, but my wife (who works in the school system) said it is wildly illegal in Jersey for teachers to search a child. You have to notify police, who have those powers. School personel don't She thinks that someone in the administration realized how illegal the first search was, then tried to dial down the subsequent ones. They at the very least knew not to search the child's body without a cop or parent present.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Not sure about the law in Virginia, but my wife (who works in the school system) said it is wildly illegal in Jersey for teachers to search a child. You have to notify police, who have those powers. School personel don't She thinks that someone in the administration realized how illegal the first search was, then tried to dial down the subsequent ones. They are the very least knew not to search the child's body without a cop of parent present.

There is likely a legal distinction between searching the kid's backpack, as they apparently did here, and patting down his body, which they didn't do.

But it's hard to believe that's the rule everywhere. Some schools have metal detectors at the entrances. Are they operated by cops? Or if a student sets one off, are the teachers supposed to call the cops? They can't say "Empty your pockets and gimme your pack?" One of the broad complaints recently is that schools call the police too frequently over trivial misbehavior.

That might be an argument to have handheld wands available at every school.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Bob001

There is likely a legal distinction between searching the kid's backpack, as they apparently did here, and patting down his body, which they didn't do.

But it's hard to believe that's the rule everywhere. Some schools have metal detectors at the entrances. Are they operated by cops?

In NJ, a metal detector is considered passive, not invasive.

Quote:

Or if a student sets one off, are the teachers supposed to call the cops? They can't say "Empty your pockets and gimme your pack?" One of the broad complaints recently is that schools call the police too frequently over trivial misbehavior.

The procedure is to ask if the student has metals on their person, and ask/tell them to remove them. If they don't cooperate, SROs are called to sit on the student till police arrive, which is usually fast because one is stationed or patroling when school is being opened.

Quote:

That might be an argument to have handheld wands available at every school.

AIUI, there is only rarely a metal incident. Kids carrying know how it works, and don't want an aquaintance with Mr Policeman. So, like kids since the beginning of time, they outwit security in different ways to accomplish their ends.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by arthwollipot

I'd say that if a parent stores a loaded gun, or gun and ammunition, in such a way to make it accessible to their six year old child, they are clearly unfit to own a gun.

Or a child.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Guns don't kill people. Dogs with guns kill people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-hunting-trip/

This has to me a nominee for the 2023 Darwin Awards. I mean seriously, what kind of idiot drives round with a loaded gun in his car, with a bullet in the chamber and the action cocked?

.....

Oh, wait... the article said Kansas didn't it?

Never mind!

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by smartcooky

This has to me a nominee for the 2023 Darwin Awards. I mean seriously, what kind of idiot drives round with a loaded gun in his car, with a bullet in the chamber and the action cocked?

.....

Oh, wait... the article said Kansas didn't it?

Never mind!

Not sure if this would count as it was the passenger who was shot by the truck driver’s dog. Not sure whose gun it was.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Thermal

Not sure about the law in Virginia, but my wife (who works in the school system) said it is wildly illegal in Jersey for teachers to search a child. You have to notify police, who have those powers. School personel don't She thinks that someone in the administration realized how illegal the first search was, then tried to dial down the subsequent ones. They at the very least knew not to search the child's body without a cop or parent present.

I doubt there are no exceptions here. A 6yr old who showed the gun to another kid on the playground would surely be an exception, especially in this era of school shooters.

Plus the news account, if correct, says the child or at least his backpack was searched.

However, they should have called in the police. The school staff members were clearly out of their league.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I doubt there are no exceptions here. A 6yr old who showed the gun to another kid on the playground would surely be an exception, especially in this era of school shooters.

Plus the news account, if correct, says the child or at least his backpack was searched.

However, they should have called in the police. The school staff members were clearly out of their league.

Yet another attempt to shift the blame to the teachers.

IMO a society where teachers are in their league (so to speak) dealing with a 6 year old who has brought a loaded handgun to school is pretty messed up.

Put yourself in the teachers' shoes. On the face of it, the claim should be ridiculous, what kind of 6 year old brings a gun to school ? And in any case, they're on a hiding to nothing unless there is a well established and documented procedure for dealing with this.

If they search the child and it turns out that there was no gun or it was a toy then there'll be headlines about teachers over-reacting, not adhering to procedure and opening themselves up to a lawsuit from the parents of the child who was "violated" by the search. OTOH if there really is a gun, do they know how to conduct a body search, of a presumably uncompliant child, for a gun which may or may not be loaded and may or may not have any safety which may or may not be engaged ?

IMO teachers should not search a potentially armed child but if they have to, then there should be a well-established procedure and all teachers, or those who have been selected for training, should be trained in the proper procedure to keep themselves, the child being searched and the other adults and children in the school as safe as possible during the search.

IMO the blame firmly and unequivocally lies with the parents who allowed a 6 year old to access a loaded handgun and bring it to school. IMO they aren't fit to either own handgun, or to have custody of a child.

[Mashuna]

Originally Posted by Bob001

Guns don't kill people. Dogs with guns kill people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...-hunting-trip/

From the same article,

Quote:

In 2004, a shepherd-mix puppy in Florida discharged a gun, striking a man in the wrist, NBC News reported. At the time of the shooting, Jerry Allen Bradford had been preparing to shoot seven puppies because he was unable to find them a home, NBC News reported, citing the local sheriff’s office.

Would that not count as self-defence by the dog?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yet another attempt to shift the blame to the teachers. ....

It hasn't dawned on you there is more than enough blame to go around?

The wounded teacher herself blamed the school staff who had not found the gun after she reported it.

Your posts suggest you have tunnel vision about blaming the mother or both parents. I see that as half the problem and your snark is misguided.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It hasn't dawned on you there is more than enough blame to go around?

The wounded teacher herself blamed the school staff who had not found the gun after she reported it.

Your posts suggest you have tunnel vision about blaming the mother or both parents. I see that as half the problem and your snark is misguided.

As someone from a country with a sane approach to guns, the idea that a teacher should have "competence in finding hidden firearms on an infant" as anything to do with their suitability for their job is utterly bizarre.

[RolandRat]

Originally Posted by The Don

IMO a society where teachers are in their league (so to speak) dealing with a 6 year old who has brought a loaded handgun to school is pretty messed up.

Agreed. The school knows it is part of such a society though so should have done more about the warnings.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It hasn't dawned on you there is more than enough blame to go around?

OK, I'll allow 0.000000001% of the blame to attach itself to the school for failing to have procedures in place to deal with carrying out a body search of a 6 year old who is concealing a loaded handgun. Happy ?

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The wounded teacher herself blamed the school staff who had not found the gun after she reported it.

Of course she did. Can you imagine the backlash if she had the temerity to suggest that the parents were in any way to blame ? She'd have to go into hiding to protect herself from the inevitable death threats.

Also, the school district has financial resources and so would the object of her inevitable suit.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Your posts suggest you have tunnel vision about blaming the mother or both parents. I see that as half the problem and your snark is misguided.

I honestly cannot see who else to blame. If the parents weren't disgracefully reckless in their storage of handguns then there wouldn't be a story here.

Heck, if the 6 year old stabbed the teacher, I'd be saying the same about their storage of knives.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by The Don

OK, I'll allow 0.000000001% of the blame to attach itself to the school for failing to have procedures in place to deal with carrying out a body search of a 6 year old who is concealing a loaded handgun. Happy ?



Of course she did. Can you imagine the backlash if she had the temerity to suggest that the parents were in any way to blame ? She'd have to go into hiding to protect herself from the inevitable death threats.

Also, the school district has financial resources and so would the object of her inevitable suit.



I honestly cannot see who else to blame. If the parents weren't disgracefully reckless in their storage of handguns then there wouldn't be a story here.

Heck, if the 6 year old stabbed the teacher, I'd be saying the same about their storage of knives.

The shot teacher reported that she believed this kid had a gun. The same kid who is so profoundly ****** up that he said he wanted to set this same teacher on fire to watch her die. You seriously don't think that the school had an obligation to take the teacher's safety seriously? There were two other school shootings in this same district in the last 18 months. It's not like it's an abstract musing.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by Thermal

The shot teacher reported that she believed this kid had a gun. The same kid who is so profoundly ****** up that he said he wanted to set this same teacher on fire to watch her die. You seriously don't think that the school had an obligation to take the teacher's safety seriously? There were two other school shootings in this same district in the last 18 months. It's not like it's an abstract musing.

The larger question is why was such a profoundly disturbed kid in ordinary classes? He posed the biggest danger to the other kids. Maybe the solution would have been home tutoring or some kind of institutional care. Previous reports say he was in a plan where a parent attended school with him every day, and this shooting occurred when the parent was absent. Maybe the school should not have let him in at all that day, and the parent should be sanctioned for not showing up. By all accounts the system had plenty of notice about what they were dealing with.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Thermal

The shot teacher reported that she believed this kid had a gun. The same kid who is so profoundly ****** up that he said he wanted to set this same teacher on fire to watch her die. You seriously don't think that the school had an obligation to take the teacher's safety seriously? There were two other school shootings in this same district in the last 18 months. It's not like it's an abstract musing.

Did the other two shootings involve 6 year olds ?

Were proper procedures in place covering how to safely carry out a body search on an armed 6 year old ?

If not, a bungled attempt to search the child could have ended up even worse.

[Bob001]

Originally Posted by The Don

......
I honestly cannot see who else to blame. If the parents weren't disgracefully reckless in their storage of handguns then there wouldn't be a story here.

Heck, if the 6 year old stabbed the teacher, I'd be saying the same about their storage of knives.

The parents were disgracefully reckless. They should be prosecuted. But I doubt you would expect every household to keep every knife under lock and key. Many Americans think of guns the same way: a tool that needs to be accessible.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I doubt there are no exceptions here. A 6yr old who showed the gun to another kid on the playground would surely be an exception, especially in this era of school shooters.

One of the exceptions I've seen is that if two people report something suspicious, it constitutes probable cause to search, I guess to minimalize harassing or one-off mistakes.

Quote:

Plus the news account, if correct, says the child or at least his backpack was searched.

That was what my wife called out: searching the bag without sufficient probable cause is problematic with minors, as well as adults. Adults can voluntarily submit to a bag inspection for security purposes, for instance. Involuntary searches, based on heresay, are a bigger deal for non-cops.

Quote:

However, they should have called in the police. The school staff members were clearly out of their league.

From what I've been reading, this district has been trying to downplay it's internal violence and problems. Parents have been pitching a fit for a while now.

In high school, we used to be forced to submit to all kinds of searches, under the logic that the school were surrogate parents during school hours. That's been done away with here, at the behest of multiple court cases. Now you need to call police to handle police matters. That's probably a good thing, as I wouldn't want my kids searched based on some other kid trying to cause trouble.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by The Don

Did the other two shootings involve 6 year olds ?

No, but last I checked there wasn't a "you must be this tall to kill" sign outside the school either. A teacher blowing a whistle should not be blown off in the way a child's might. The kid is known to be violent and disturbed. This district appears to be a violent place. I can't think of a reason to blow off that hat trick and tell the teacher to cross her fingers and hope for the best.

Quote:

Were proper procedures in place covering how to safely carry out a body search on an armed 6 year old ?

If not, a bungled attempt to search the child could have ended up even worse.

Thinking about how small a 6 year old is, and how large and heavy a handgun is, I'm having trouble figuring out how the gun was not right in their faces, and the most gentle of hand sweeps across his torso would not have exposed it. They weren't looking for an SD card.

[shemp]

Has anyone asked this question: If you're a parent of another child in that school, do you want this kid coming back to your child's school? If I was one of those parents, I'm not sure I could ever be reassured that, no matter how much help this kid gets, that my child would be safe around him.

[Thermal]

Originally Posted by Bob001

The larger question is why was such a profoundly disturbed kid in ordinary classes? He posed the biggest danger to the other kids. Maybe the solution would have been home tutoring or some kind of institutional care. Previous reports say he was in a plan where a parent attended school with him every day, and this shooting occurred when the parent was absent. Maybe the school should not have let him in at all that day, and the parent should be sanctioned for not showing up. By all accounts the system had plenty of notice about what they were dealing with.

Some parents fight tooth and nail to keep their child mainstreamed. I'd guess that this was one of those, as family agreeing to be in class with him has to be crazy inconvenient, and is certainly not normal. Sounds like very very special accomodations were being made to keep him in general ed.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Saw this in the "fired the supervisor" article (poor grammar is not mine). Just didn't know if it was ever mentioned here.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/us/ne...ote/index.html



Amazing that this still happened with such strict laws.

I don't think anyone under 21 was harmed in the making of this. So perhaps no crime was committed?

[plague311]

If I were the school district, given this kids' history, I would have just made them sign a consent to search in exchange for him attending school, or called the parents in real-time to get consent to search by someone on premise. None of that would be even slightly illegal, at least not here in North Dakota. It's also not like this would have taken can exhaustive search. Look through the backpack, tell him to lift his shirt up to his waistline, turn around, and search his locker. That's it. Had the school done just that this would have been prevented.

Then again, here in ND our school resource officers are just that, they're police officers. They're employed by the PD, they have real life badges, but they spend all day, everyday, in the school. I'm not sure if this school had something similar but given their track record they better ******* start.

I see a million ways for this to have been prevented with blame that lies everywhere, sans the teacher, given the reporting we have so far.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It hasn't dawned on you there is more than enough blame to go around?

The wounded teacher herself blamed the school staff who had not found the gun after she reported it.

Your posts suggest you have tunnel vision about blaming the mother or both parents. I see that as half the problem and your snark is misguided.

Like most failures, there are multiple errors that had to occur for this to happen. Perhaps that is why it is unusual for pre-teens to shoot teachers?

As SK previously pointed out an individual education plan for a child with this type of disability would often involve having an individual teaching assistant in class. I wonder if the school board failed to deliver on this. Otherwise it is hard to see why someone so distant as a school district supervisor was sacked. But people like to blame someone rather than fixing the system.

[Planigale]

Originally Posted by Bob001

The larger question is why was such a profoundly disturbed kid in ordinary classes? He posed the biggest danger to the other kids. Maybe the solution would have been home tutoring or some kind of institutional care. Previous reports say he was in a plan where a parent attended school with him every day, and this shooting occurred when the parent was absent. Maybe the school should not have let him in at all that day, and the parent should be sanctioned for not showing up. By all accounts the system had plenty of notice about what they were dealing with.

The law requires the child to attend school, the school has to make appropriate arrangements to facilitate this. I suspect that the school board tried to save money by not fully implementing an appropriate individualised education plan. The obvious failing is not having a personal teaching assistant provided which I would have expected for a child with severe behavioural issues.

[Babbylonian]

No, the obvious failing is not immediately calling the cops when there's a credible report of a gun, especially in the possession of a child with documented behavioral problems. We've got schools calling cops into classes to remove noisy students but these idiots wouldn't call the cops for a reported gun.

[mgidm86]

Originally Posted by The Don

Did the other two shootings involve 6 year olds ?

Were proper procedures in place covering how to safely carry out a body search on an armed 6 year old ?

If not, a bungled attempt to search the child could have ended up even worse.

I'd love to agree that the school holds no responsibility because it shouldn't have to, but that isn't the reality in this stupid country.

Suppose the kid found the gun in some bushes on the way to school and everything else happened the same way it did. Teachers and administrators were warned multiple times and did nothing, etc.

The school has some responsibility in this case.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by Babbylonian

No, the obvious failing is not immediately calling the cops when there's a credible report of a gun, especially in the possession of a child with documented behavioral problems. We've got schools calling cops into classes to remove noisy students but these idiots wouldn't call the cops for a reported gun.

But cops won't come if they are told someone has a gun, they're afraid of getting shot.

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by plague311

If I were the school district, given this kids' history, I would have just made them sign a consent to search in exchange for him attending school, or called the parents in real-time to get consent to search by someone on premise. None of that would be even slightly illegal, at least not here in North Dakota. It's also not like this would have taken can exhaustive search. Look through the backpack, tell him to lift his shirt up to his waistline, turn around, and search his locker. That's it. Had the school done just that this would have been prevented.

Then again, here in ND our school resource officers are just that, they're police officers. They're employed by the PD, they have real life badges, but they spend all day, everyday, in the school. I'm not sure if this school had something similar but given their track record they better ******* start.

I see a million ways for this to have been prevented with blame that lies everywhere, sans the teacher, given the reporting we have so far.

Oh yes, implement a solution that a) makes schools more dagerous, b) highly increases racist incidents in school and c) leads to the criminalisation of children being children. As we've seen in places like Uvalde that system will work perfectly. Absolutely genius solution!

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Thermal

No, but last I checked there wasn't a "you must be this tall to kill" sign outside the school either. A teacher blowing a whistle should not be blown off in the way a child's might. The kid is known to be violent and disturbed. This district appears to be a violent place. I can't think of a reason to blow off that hat trick and tell the teacher to cross her fingers and hope for the best.

True, but in my limited experience there's a big difference trying to get a 6 year old to understand instructions compared to getting a teenager to understand instructions. Larger children also tend to be more physically robust and so physical actions which may be appropriate and effective for adults and teenagers may be inappropriate or even dangerous for a 6 year old.

You raise an excellent point about whether the 6 year old should be in school but IMO more like a criticism of the school board and its policies. OTOH criticising teachers for failing to effectively carry out a body search of a potentially armed 6 year old when they haven't had the necessary training seems to me to be a deliberate attempt to absolve the parents and US gun culture from any responsibility whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Thermal

Thinking about how small a 6 year old is, and how large and heavy a handgun is, I'm having trouble figuring out how the gun was not right in their faces, and the most gentle of hand sweeps across his torso would not have exposed it. They weren't looking for an SD card.

I don't know how big the gun was or how big the child is, or how the child was behaving at the time. Personally I wouldn't want to carry out a body search of an uncooperative 6 year old who may have a loaded gun with the safety off.

That sounds like a recipe for disaster and could easily end up with me, the child or bystanders being shot.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by mgidm86

I'd love to agree that the school holds no responsibility because it shouldn't have to, but that isn't the reality in this stupid country.

Suppose the kid found the gun in some bushes on the way to school and everything else happened the same way it did. Teachers and administrators were warned multiple times and did nothing, etc.

The school has some responsibility in this case.

The teacher blaming continues while the parents and US gun culture avoid any and all responsibility.

It's hardly surprising, the school board has financial resources (and can be sued) and undermining public services seems to be a national hobby in the US.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by The Don

The teacher blaming continues while the parents and US gun culture avoid any and all responsibility....

Where on Earth did you get this fantasy?

[erlando]

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Are there any standards on these firearm safety devices or can I sell a cardboard box as a gun safe?

Check out LockPickingLawyer on Youtube. You will quickly find that there seems to be no standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Sj...L-3eINJtxfKhKc

[RolandRat]

Originally Posted by The Don

The teacher blaming continues while the parents and US gun culture avoid any and all responsibility.

It's hardly surprising, the school board has financial resources (and can be sued) and undermining public services seems to be a national hobby in the US.

The parents are of course culpable, this doesn't mean the school wasn't in error too. The fact the kid is 6 years old does not mean they should not have taken the reports more seriously. It's the USA, school shootings are a real thing. The school knows this. The kid had serious issues. The school knew this.

The parents failings led to the kid getting hold of a gun. The schools failings allowed that kid to actually use that gun.