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Old 30th January 2023, 07:17 PM   #281
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
We don't actually know, sitting here, and at this time, about their fitness or otherwise about either thing. Still, we opine away, right?
I think you have hit upon the entire purpose of these forums.
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Old 30th January 2023, 07:29 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think you have hit upon the entire purpose of these forums.




---

But if I can do the very boring thing of seriously talking about what was simply meant as a joke, and what's more saying something that's no doubt entirely obvious:

That's kind of how we function in the world, right? With opinions based off of less than complete information --- opinions that are necessarily provisional, and necessarily less than watertight?

But even within those provisional, less-than-watertight opinions, there's what's reasonable, and what less so. And also knowing that what one is thinking is provisional, and also estimating to what extent that's so. All of that's kind of part of how we necessarily must navigate the world; and I'd say that to an extent that kind of assessment gets, well, distilled, here on these forums. Not perfectly, but more so than in your average interaction elsewhere, including IRL. That I'd say is what is the thing about these forums.
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Old 30th January 2023, 08:19 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post



---

But if I can do the very boring thing of seriously talking about what was simply meant as a joke, and what's more saying something that's no doubt entirely obvious:

That's kind of how we function in the world, right? With opinions based off of less than complete information --- opinions that are necessarily provisional, and necessarily less than watertight?

But even within those provisional, less-than-watertight opinions, there's what's reasonable, and what less so. And also knowing that what one is thinking is provisional, and also estimating to what extent that's so. All of that's kind of part of how we necessarily must navigate the world; and I'd say that to an extent that kind of assessment gets, well, distilled, here on these forums. Not perfectly, but more so than in your average interaction elsewhere, including IRL. That I'd say is what is the thing about these forums.

Well said.

I would only say that if by "we" you mean everyone and not just forum members and other skeptics, that for the vast majority of people their provisional opinion quickly becomes permanent.

I've changed views on a lot of things in my life, most of them fairly recently, and the ability to examine my own beliefs was the reason. That ability was taught to me, and I actively try to improve my thinking skills. Many people don't even know what that means
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Old 30th January 2023, 08:20 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post



---

But if I can do the very boring thing of seriously talking about what was simply meant as a joke, and what's more saying something that's no doubt entirely obvious:

That's kind of how we function in the world, right? With opinions based off of less than complete information --- opinions that are necessarily provisional, and necessarily less than watertight?

But even within those provisional, less-than-watertight opinions, there's what's reasonable, and what less so. And also knowing that what one is thinking is provisional, and also estimating to what extent that's so. All of that's kind of part of how we necessarily must navigate the world; and I'd say that to an extent that kind of assessment gets, well, distilled, here on these forums. Not perfectly, but more so than in your average interaction elsewhere, including IRL. That I'd say is what is the thing about these forums.

Well said.

I would only say that if by "we" you mean everyone and not just forum members and other skeptics, that for the vast majority of people their provisional opinion quickly becomes permanent.

I've changed views on a lot of things in my life, most of them fairly recently, and the ability to examine my own beliefs was the reason. That ability was taught to me, and I actively try to improve my thinking skills. Many people don't even know what this paragraph means
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Old 5th February 2023, 03:54 AM   #285
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Mod Warning

I have split the discussion about fear of liberals to

[Split Thread] Why do some conservatives fear liberals?

In US politics

Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:jimbob
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Old 5th February 2023, 03:57 PM   #286
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So anyways I read that the Uvalde school is going to be torn down.

Is there going to be a minimum number of deaths required for a school to be torn down and rebuilt because this could get ridiculously expensive in this gun happy country. Perhaps we should use those "portable" buildings for schools so tearing them down would be cheaper. Or maybe bullet proof tents?

Add this to the expense for keeping the 2nd amendment around.

- dead children, shot in their ******* classroom
- grieving families
- their funerals
- shot teachers
- metal detectors
- bullet proof backpacks
- counseling for survivors
- rebuilding an entire ******* school
- the need for police in some schools
- active shooter drills in schools
- designing schools with shootings in mind

- And the kicker: our kids must live with the fear caused by all of the above

That's just school shootings. Gun owners should be taxed $1000 a year per gun to pay for all of this. Why the **** should the rest of us pay for it?

Don't any gun owners ever look at this and think, "Gee maybe this is a hobby I can live without"? Seriously, the only way this stops is for gun owners to say they've seen enough. All gun owners. Yes, you too. Make some noise and make a ******* stand you bunch of ********.
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Old 6th February 2023, 06:32 PM   #287
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Not buying this part of the story, sorry, which states that the kid: once choked another teacher “until she couldn't breathe”

Quote:
She [the teacher who got shot] said that in 2021, the boy came up behind her as she sat in a chair in the front of the class, locked his forearms in front of her neck and pulled back and down, hard. She said a teaching assistant pulled the boy off her.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/us-can...ly-lawyer-says

In 2021, he must have been 5 years old, yet he supposedly put a 1/2 Nelson on the teacher until she couldn't breathe. Unless the kid is a gorilla, I'm more than skeptical of that story.
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Old 6th February 2023, 08:27 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
.....
In 2021, he must have been 5 years old, yet he supposedly put a 1/2 Nelson on the teacher until she couldn't breathe. Unless the kid is a gorilla, I'm more than skeptical of that story.
Well, if it was a petite female teacher, and he put his full weight on her from behind while she was sitting in a chair, it's not implausible, especially if the teacher a/ was caught by surprise and b/ didn't want to hurt the kid, by, say, breaking his effing arm.

The allegation was made in a court filing by the teacher's lawyer. Presumably she can prove it. It's not just idle gossip.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:27 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Presumably she can prove it.
No chance of that - it'll be her word against nobody's.
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Old 6th February 2023, 09:42 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No chance of that - it'll be her word against nobody's.
Not if the teaching assistant cited backs it up.
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Old 6th February 2023, 10:30 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Not if the teaching assistant cited backs it up.

There is also this:
Quote:
The choking incident described in the notice was confirmed by the teacher. She said that in 2021, the boy came up behind her as she sat in a chair in the front of the class, locked his forearms in front of her neck and pulled back and down, hard. She said a teaching assistant pulled the boy off her.

The teacher requested anonymity because she fears potential retaliation from the school district. She said she reported the incident to school administrators, but did not receive the kind of supportive response she had hoped for from them.

If she reported it at the time it happened, that would be pretty compelling evidence.
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Old 7th February 2023, 12:10 AM   #292
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Virginia boy who shot teacher allegedly tried to choke another, lawyer claims

Quote:
A 6-year-old Virginia boy who shot and wounded his first-grade teacher constantly cursed at staff and teachers, chased students around and tried to whip them with his belt and once choked another teacher "until she couldn't breathe," according to a legal notice filed by an attorney for the wounded teacher.
. . .

Two days before the shooting, the boy allegedly "slammed" Zwerner's cellphone and broke it, according to the claim notice. He was given a one-day suspension, but when he returned to Zwerner's class the following day, he pulled a 9mm handgun out of his pocket and shot her while she sat at a reading table, the notice says.
There's a lot more, but I don't want to quote too much. Is the child actually only 6? Sounds like an angry teenager.

The other thing in the story is that apparently there were warnings from someone that the child had a gun.

Quote:
The document says that several hours before the shooting, at least three teachers and staff members warned school administrators that they believed the boy had brought a gun to school. The boy's backpack was searched, but no gun was found, and administrators did not remove the boy from class, lock down the school or call police.
Why did they only search his backpack?

By the way, if you are wondering just how large a 6-year-old child can be:
Meet a 5-year-old who’s nearly 6 feet tall

Not the same child, but just for reference. The picture you have in your mind of what this child looks like could be wrong. He could be physically the same size as an adult man.
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Old 7th February 2023, 07:05 AM   #293
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In an unrelated event, there was a recent local story where a 3 year old shot himself in the leg after finding a loaded gun in the house.

Fortunately he only grazed his leg and will survive, but seriously? Leaving a loaded gun where a 3 year old can get it?
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:16 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
In an unrelated event, there was a recent local story where a 3 year old shot himself in the leg after finding a loaded gun in the house.

Fortunately he only grazed his leg and will survive, but seriously? Leaving a loaded gun where a 3 year old can get it?
Guns don't shoot people, toddlers do ?

If you really believe that your home is in imminent danger of a potentially fatal home invasion and, rather than choosing to upgrade your doors, determine that the only way to protect kith and kin is to lay down withering suppressing fire, then it's imperative that loaded weapons are easily and immediately accessible.

The occasional accidental shooting of a toddler is a price people are willing to pay for the peace of mind that comes from being in constant fear of a home invasion.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:21 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
By the way, if you are wondering just how large a 6-year-old child can be:
Meet a 5-year-old who’s nearly 6 feet tall

Not the same child, but just for reference. The picture you have in your mind of what this child looks like could be wrong. He could be physically the same size as an adult man.
Yes, 5 year olds can be different sizes but I wouldn't necessarily take that particular article at face value.

Partly because of its source, the New York Post which is no stranger to sensationalism. Partly because India doesn't keep the best records (they're not even sure how old some of their age group cricketers are), and because there may be an incentive for the family to under report his age. Partly because even Robert Wadlow was shorter at the same age.

Also, just because a child is the same size as a small adult, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are anything like the same strength.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:26 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Guns don't shoot people, toddlers do ?

If you really believe that your home is in imminent danger of a potentially fatal home invasion and, rather than choosing to upgrade your doors, determine that the only way to protect kith and kin is to lay down withering suppressing fire, then it's imperative that loaded weapons are easily and immediately accessible.

The occasional accidental shooting of a toddler is a price people are willing to pay for the peace of mind that comes from being in constant fear of a home invasion.
Of the many many many gun owners I know, none are afraid of anything. They want to be prepared. Kind of like carrying a spare tire in your car doesn't mean you are afraid of a flat, just calmly ready for it. It's a big difference in understanding the mentality.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:36 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of the many many many gun owners I know, none are afraid of anything. They want to be prepared. Kind of like carrying a spare tire in your car doesn't mean you are afraid of a flat, just calmly ready for it. It's a big difference in understanding the mentality.
Sheer, comedy gold !

Sure, they're all manly men (and womanly women) who have no fear of anything.

Meanwhile the prospect of home invasion isn't even a factor in my life, and if it was (and I chose not to move), my first step would be to get better doors and windows.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:50 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Sheer, comedy gold !

Sure, they're all manly men (and womanly women) who have no fear of anything.
Oh, stop. You know exactly what I mean. They don't spend the evenings peeking out their drapes and lay awake trembling in bed. They take it as a simple preparation, just like having a fire extinguisher around.

Quote:
Meanwhile the prospect of home invasion isn't even a factor in my life, and if it was (and I chose not to move), my first step would be to get better doors and windows.
Bad guys don't travel to better target
neighborhoods where you live? Fascinating.

I live on a beach island with much higher than average burglary rates. Pretty much zero of the burglaries are committed by residents. They have these things called "cars" and "trucks" which make your zip code pretty irrelevant.

If you live in the United States of America, you live in a high crime area, full stop.
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Old 7th February 2023, 08:54 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Of the many many many gun owners I know, none are afraid of anything. They want to be prepared. Kind of like carrying a spare tire in your car doesn't mean you are afraid of a flat, just calmly ready for it. It's a big difference in understanding the mentality.
While I get what you're saying, I don't think the division here is sharp. Sure, I carry a spare tire, and I'm not in constant fear of flat tires, just prepared to handle an event whose possibility is proven by history. In some degree, I could be said to be afraid of at least the nuisance of having a flat tire and no spare, but the carrying of a spare is nearly invisible, free of danger, and free of all but the most trivial down side (a tiny diminution of gas mileage, a little use of space). In nearly 60 years of driving I've had many flats, used many spares. I've had one flat in a car that had no spare, and needed a tow and a new tire in a distant place. Though I have also had numerous vehicles whose spares never were used at all, I have never had a situation in which possession of a spare tire was a risk requiring assessment of its acceptability.

The consequence of having no spare tire is annoying but not generally fearsome. The consequence of having one is unlikely ever to lead to a negative outcome, and the event in which it is needed, though less common nowadays, a pretty standard component of driving experience.

I don't think that carrying a gun or having a loaded one at the ready is a comparable situation, at least for most of us. The likelihood I might need a spare is considerable, even though rare, and the solution simple. The likelihood I'll be shot is very very small, and the solution complex. I think for most of us the gap between prudence and fear is wide.
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Old 7th February 2023, 09:05 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, stop. You know exactly what I mean. They don't spend the evenings peeking out their drapes and lay awake trembling in bed. They take it as a simple preparation, just like having a fire extinguisher around.
Instead they keep lethal weapons to immediate hand and fantasise about protecting their family.

I have a fire extinguisher. Compared to a loaded gun it presents a tiny risk of misuse, it's very unlikely that a fire will use it on me and it would be much more difficult for me to use it to kill myself or someone else.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Bad guys don't travel to better target
neighborhoods where you live? Fascinating.

I live on a beach island with much higher than average burglary rates. Pretty much zero of the burglaries are committed by residents. They have these things called "cars" and "trucks" which make your zip code pretty irrelevant.

If you live in the United States of America, you live in a high crime area, full stop.
Utter garbage, but it is the narrative chosen by the gun industry to keep people scared of crime (fear of crime typically has an inverse relationship to actual crime) and to promote the sales of guns. It's also the way in which authoritarian politicians persuade people to give up their personal freedoms.

My mother in law lives in New Jersey. She's lived in her house for nearly 60 years, it has no alarm system and she doesn't have any weapons in the house. The thought of a home invasion does not occupy her thoughts.

My brother in law lives in rural Montana. He has an alarm system and he is armed at all times. He has a constant preoccupation about his house being broken into and will carry out a "sweep" of a building he enters. Every noise outside the house will put him on high alert. It must be exhausting to be my brother in law.
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Old 7th February 2023, 09:11 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
While I get what you're saying, I don't think the division here is sharp. Sure, I carry a spare tire, and I'm not in constant fear of flat tires, just prepared to handle an event whose possibility is proven by history. In some degree, I could be said to be afraid of at least the nuisance of having a flat tire and no spare, but the carrying of a spare is nearly invisible, free of danger, and free of all but the most trivial down side (a tiny diminution of gas mileage, a little use of space). In nearly 60 years of driving I've had many flats, used many spares. I've had one flat in a car that had no spare, and needed a tow and a new tire in a distant place. Though I have also had numerous vehicles whose spares never were used at all, I have never had a situation in which possession of a spare tire was a risk requiring assessment of its acceptability.

The consequence of having no spare tire is annoying but not generally fearsome. The consequence of having one is unlikely ever to lead to a negative outcome, and the event in which it is needed, though less common nowadays, a pretty standard component of driving experience.

I don't think that carrying a gun or having a loaded one at the ready is a comparable situation, at least for most of us. The likelihood I might need a spare is considerable, even though rare, and the solution simple. The likelihood I'll be shot is very very small, and the solution complex. I think for most of us the gap between prudence and fear is wide.
Recall when the police were objecting to getting the COVID vaccine because they insisted that wouldn't live their life in fear. While wearing bullet proof vests for traffic stops.

Is that being prudent? Or fear?
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Old 7th February 2023, 09:13 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
While I get what you're saying, I don't think the division here is sharp. Sure, I carry a spare tire, and I'm not in constant fear of flat tires, just prepared to handle an event whose possibility is proven by history. In some degree, I could be said to be afraid of at least the nuisance of having a flat tire and no spare, but the carrying of a spare is nearly invisible, free of danger, and free of all but the most trivial down side (a tiny diminution of gas mileage, a little use of space). In nearly 60 years of driving I've had many flats, used many spares. I've had one flat in a car that had no spare, and needed a tow and a new tire in a distant place. Though I have also had numerous vehicles whose spares never were used at all, I have never had a situation in which possession of a spare tire was a risk requiring assessment of its acceptability.

The consequence of having no spare tire is annoying but not generally fearsome. The consequence of having one is unlikely ever to lead to a negative outcome, and the event in which it is needed, though less common nowadays, a pretty standard component of driving experience.

I don't think that carrying a gun or having a loaded one at the ready is a comparable situation, at least for most of us. The likelihood I might need a spare is considerable, even though rare, and the solution simple. The likelihood I'll be shot is very very small, and the solution complex. I think for most of us the gap between prudence and fear is wide.
Your point is well taken, but consider smoke detectors. In my last two houses, I spent hundreds on wiring interconnected detectors on all levels, inside and outside the bedrooms. CO detection and battery backups, the works. Of course, maintainance costs of replacing them as they age and fresh batteries. Never once have they alerted me to a fire in a quarter century.

By comparison, I've had easily over a dozen times that I could have used a gun for legitimate self defense (on the Kyle Rittenhouse standard), including midnight intruders. I could in fact have legally racked up an impressive body count by now, except for my rather intense aversion to killing. I have, by the grace of God, survived with not much more than a few lumps on occasion, but the threat was active and very real.

So should I invest in a gun for the demonstrably real threat, or continue investing against the abstract threat of waking me in a fire? Please excuse the fine argumentative points in favor of the main one, here.
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Old 7th February 2023, 10:09 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Instead they keep lethal weapons to immediate hand and fantasise about protecting their family.

I have a fire extinguisher. Compared to a loaded gun it presents a tiny risk of misuse, it's very unlikely that a fire will use it on me and it would be much more difficult for me to use it to kill myself or someone else.
And a kitchen fire will not likely try to kill you, if you simply leave. An attacker can kill you, and might be high on his priority list. Not actually lobbying this point, just pointing out that guns have a high life saving potential. Fire extinguishers are much more a property protection.

Quote:
Utter garbage, but it is the narrative chosen by the gun industry to keep people scared of crime (fear of crime typically has an inverse relationship to actual crime) and to promote the sales of guns. It's also the way in which authoritarian politicians persuade people to give up their personal freedoms.

My mother in law lives in New Jersey. She's lived in her house for nearly 60 years, it has no alarm system and she doesn't have any weapons in the house. The thought of a home invasion does not occupy her thoughts.

My brother in law lives in rural Montana. He has an alarm system and he is armed at all times. He has a constant preoccupation about his house being broken into and will carry out a "sweep" of a building he enters. Every noise outside the house will put him on high alert. It must be exhausting to be my brother in law.
Your brother-in-law might be a bit more aware than you are. Montana ranks as the State with the 12th highest incidence of violent crime. New Jersey ranks 47th.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ent_crime_rate

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Old 7th February 2023, 12:08 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your point is well taken, but consider smoke detectors. In my last two houses, I spent hundreds on wiring interconnected detectors on all levels, inside and outside the bedrooms. CO detection and battery backups, the works. Of course, maintainance costs of replacing them as they age and fresh batteries. Never once have they alerted me to a fire in a quarter century.

By comparison, I've had easily over a dozen times that I could have used a gun for legitimate self defense (on the Kyle Rittenhouse standard), including midnight intruders. I could in fact have legally racked up an impressive body count by now, except for my rather intense aversion to killing. I have, by the grace of God, survived with not much more than a few lumps on occasion, but the threat was active and very real.

So should I invest in a gun for the demonstrably real threat, or continue investing against the abstract threat of waking me in a fire? Please excuse the fine argumentative points in favor of the main one, here.
I get the point, and also suspect that there are situations where a gun is a good idea, and persons who can make it work. For most of us there's a cost-benefit issue. The benefit of smoke detectors is very infrequent, and maybe not very reliable, but enormous when it happens, and their cost is quite low. When a smoke detector fails it does so without making the situation worse. Smoke detectors rarely will turn around and burn down your house, or invite arsonists to light it on fire.

But I'm talking in very general terms here. Neither of us, I suspect, reflects the overall realities of a whole society.
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Old 7th February 2023, 12:24 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I get the point, and also suspect that there are situations where a gun is a good idea, and persons who can make it work. For most of us there's a cost-benefit issue. The benefit of smoke detectors is very infrequent, and maybe not very reliable, but enormous when it happens, and their cost is quite low. When a smoke detector fails it does so without making the situation worse. Smoke detectors rarely will turn around and burn down your house, or invite arsonists to light it on fire.

But I'm talking in very general terms here. Neither of us, I suspect, reflects the overall realities of a whole society.
Agreed, in particular on the risk angle. I no longer keep guns around like I used to because the odds of an inadvertently bad usage are far greater than the odds of actual intruder defense. My earlier point was that gun ownership is less motivated by actual fear, than by a practical sense (of questionable realism, but still not fear).
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Old 8th February 2023, 02:54 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your point is well taken, but consider smoke detectors. In my last two houses, I spent hundreds on wiring interconnected detectors on all levels, inside and outside the bedrooms. CO detection and battery backups, the works. Of course, maintainance costs of replacing them as they age and fresh batteries. Never once have they alerted me to a fire in a quarter century.
Never, ever in the history of smoke detectors has a smoke detector killed someone by just being in the house.

Compare and contrast to guns.
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Old 8th February 2023, 03:30 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
.....
By comparison, I've had easily over a dozen times that I could have used a gun for legitimate self defense (on the Kyle Rittenhouse standard), including midnight intruders. I could in fact have legally racked up an impressive body count by now, except for my rather intense aversion to killing. I have, by the grace of God, survived with not much more than a few lumps on occasion, but the threat was active and very real.

So should I invest in a gun for the demonstrably real threat, or continue investing against the abstract threat of waking me in a fire? Please excuse the fine argumentative points in favor of the main one, here.
But let's look at that. The fact that you survived, apparently uninjured, indicates that the threat wasn't lethal. You might have been justified in killing somebody, but you provably didn't need to. If you had had a gun, you might have killed somebody without ever knowing that you didn't need to. But you would be dealing with the legal and financial aftermath (possibly including a civil suit) for years. So not having a gun was a win.

And to what degree could you have defended yourself effectively in those situations without a gun? Pepper spray? A baseball bat? An alarm that calls for help while you lock yourself in a bedroom?

I suspect one problem with keeping guns is that apparent opportunities to use one start multiplying.
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Old 8th February 2023, 06:21 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But let's look at that. The fact that you survived, apparently uninjured, indicates that the threat wasn't lethal. You might have been justified in killing somebody, but you provably didn't need to. If you had had a gun, you might have killed somebody without ever knowing that you didn't need to. But you would be dealing with the legal and financial aftermath (possibly including a civil suit) for years. So not having a gun was a win.

And to what degree could you have defended yourself effectively in those situations without a gun? Pepper spray? A baseball bat? An alarm that calls for help while you lock yourself in a bedroom?

I suspect one problem with keeping guns is that apparent opportunities to use one start multiplying.
Not to mention the devastating psychological aftermath. Unless the population of gun owners self-selects for people without a conscience. Which would be damning if true, but I don't believe it is.
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Old 8th February 2023, 07:18 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Your brother-in-law might be a bit more aware than you are. Montana ranks as the State with the 12th highest incidence of violent crime. New Jersey ranks 47th.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
By comparison, I've had easily over a dozen times that I could have used a gun for legitimate self defense (on the Kyle Rittenhouse standard), including midnight intruders. I could in fact have legally racked up an impressive body count by now, except for my rather intense aversion to killing. I have, by the grace of God, survived with not much more than a few lumps on occasion, but the threat was active and very real.
These two things seem at odds with each other. Well, that or you seem to live in an area, or have a reason, to be targeted, including midnight intruders into your house.

That being said, this story makes me feel extremely good about living in Grand Forks, ND rather than New Jersey. I've never even had anyone wonder into my yard around midnight....or ever for that matter. No one's ever come into my house, I can't even think of a single incident since moving here where I've even thought about having or using a gun. Not a single one.

I would never live somewhere that has that type of environment. That sounds ******* terrible. Why would you want to be there?
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Old 8th February 2023, 08:22 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Never, ever in the history of smoke detectors has a smoke detector killed someone by just being in the house.

Compare and contrast to guns.
Ok. Never, ever in the history of guns has a gun killed someone just by being in the house. That was.... illustrative.

A gun needs to be negligently cared for to be a problem. Smoke detectors, as I'm sure you are aware, are also negligently cared for, resulting in their malfunction which is responsible for hundreds of fatalities annually. Guns, if untouched (as an ignored smoke detector is ignored) will continue to cause zero fatalities. So by your argument, smoke detectors passively kill more people than guns. Interesting argument.
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Old 8th February 2023, 08:43 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But let's look at that. The fact that you survived, apparently uninjured, indicates that the threat wasn't lethal.
Oh come on dude. That's the most ridiculous argument possible. A threat can be entirely lethal unless acted upon. If a train is hurting towards you and you are standing on the tracks in it's path, it is in every sense a lethal threat unless you act and step off the tracks. It's not possible that you don't understand the concept of mitigating a lethal threat.

Quote:
You might have been justified in killing somebody, but you provably didn't need to. If you had had a gun, you might have killed somebody without ever knowing that you didn't need to. But you would be dealing with the legal and financial aftermath (possibly including a civil suit) for years. So not having a gun was a win.
Possibly. As you are apparently unaware, though, many self defense shooters are not charged at all, ever, by anyone, either criminally or civily. Either way, weigh that against the possibility of being killed yourself. There is a valid argument about "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six".

Quote:
And to what degree could you have defended yourself effectively in those situations without a gun? Pepper spray? A baseball bat?
Which is fine, as long as you are talking about young, healthy, and aggressive people who are ready to go cro-magnon on a brother in the blink of an eye. Are you aware that some people...possibly even readers here...are elderly, or not particularly big and strong, or disabled, or simply not wired to initiate a barehanded bloodbath? I have sympathy, for example, for a smallish woman who simply does not want to be raped, which is not exactly a long shot threat. I'm not telling her to sharpen her skills with a baseball bat. .

Quote:
An alarm that calls for help while you lock yourself in a bedroom?
Ŕgain, utterly ridiculous, even assuming you had the option of reaching your bedroom. Any teen knows you can shoulder or kick in an interior bedroom door. Unless you naively assume that there are steel safe doors on the average bedroom?

Quote:
I suspect one problem with keeping guns is that apparent opportunities to use one start multiplying.
Agreed, which is why I tempered all this saying "by the Kyle Rittenhouse standard" (I am contemptuous of this standard, but am trying to make the point that all gun owners are not really the paranoid characture that posters here make them out to be.
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Old 8th February 2023, 08:46 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Ok. Never, ever in the history of guns has a gun killed someone just by being in the house. That was.... illustrative.

A gun needs to be negligently cared for to be a problem. Smoke detectors, as I'm sure you are aware, are also negligently cared for, resulting in their malfunction which is responsible for hundreds of fatalities annually. Guns, if untouched (as an ignored smoke detector is ignored) will continue to cause zero fatalities. So by your argument, smoke detectors passively kill more people than guns. Interesting argument.
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Old 8th February 2023, 09:11 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
These two things seem at odds with each other. Well, that or you seem to live in an area, or have a reason, to be targeted, including midnight intruders into your house.
While statewide NJ is low on the violent crime scale, some individual towns rank quite high. Camden, Atlantic City, Newark, Trenton, Elizabeth...we are pretty well-known for our dicey zip codes.

Quote:
That being said, this story makes me feel extremely good about living in Grand Forks, ND rather than New Jersey. I've never even had anyone wonder into my yard around midnight....or ever for that matter. No one's ever come into my house, I can't even think of a single incident since moving here where I've even thought about having or using a gun. Not a single one.
Should you consult the upthread violent crime rate by state link, you'll find that ND ranks 31st, compared to NJ at 47th. You in da comparitive hood, yo.

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I would never live somewhere that has that type of environment. That sounds ******* terrible. Why would you want to be there?
The bars that the brothers take me to are sooooo entertaining.

Regarding where I actually live, it's a beach town on a barrier island that is 90% vacant in the off season, with average home values around just south of $1m (and certainly higher in the current inflated market). Vacant rental/summer homes are a natural target for burglaries, although police warn us that car thefts are spiking due to knuckleheads leaving their fobs in the glove compartments and having push-button starts. The midnite intruders I had likely thought my house was vacant. They were quite scared when I confronted them (three teenish guys). I was also naked and carrying a steel demo bar.

Many are the reasons to live in my beloved Garden State.
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Old 8th February 2023, 10:15 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh come on dude. That's the most ridiculous argument possible. A threat can be entirely lethal unless acted upon. If a train is hurting towards you and you are standing on the tracks in it's path, it is in every sense a lethal threat unless you act and step off the tracks. It's not possible that you don't understand the concept of mitigating a lethal threat.
Yeah, I get it. My point was that you "mitigated the threat" without killing anybody. If you had had a gun, you might have used it first instead of trying something else that worked.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Possibly. As you are apparently unaware, though, many self defense shooters are not charged at all, ever, by anyone, either criminally or civily. Either way, weigh that against the possibility of being killed yourself. There is a valid argument about "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six".
The problem is that what you see in the moment as urgent self-defense might not be seen that way by the authorities and a jury, especially if the person you killed (now known as "the victim") wasn't armed. Despite lurid headlines, killing people is still widely frowned upon.

Best not to kill people if you don't really, really have to.
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Old 8th February 2023, 10:30 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Yeah, I get it. My point was that you "mitigated the threat" without killing anybody. If you had had a gun, you might have used it first instead of trying something else that worked.



The problem is that what you see in the moment as urgent self-defense might not be seen that way by the authorities and a jury, especially if the person you killed (now known as "the victim") wasn't armed. Despite lurid headlines, killing people is still widely frowned upon.

Best not to kill people if you don't really, really have to.
And of course, I heartily concur with all the above. I think guns should be a last option, not first, and that any "defensive" shooter should have to demonstrate that every other option was attempted, including retreat. But that's because I have the luxury of being a relatively strong, healthy and remarkably unpleasant guy. The whole "slug it out" argument might work fine for you or I, but many are not in our position. And for them, I am tempering my usual anti-gun stance.
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Old 8th February 2023, 10:59 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Should you consult the upthread violent crime rate by state link, you'll find that ND ranks 31st, compared to NJ at 47th. You in da comparitive hood, yo.
By state, maybe, but you tell stories of constant danger and police engagement. Outside of getting pulled over for tint on my windows, or an out tail light, I haven't spoken to a police officer (outside of my job) in a decade. I've never had to call them, they've never pulled a gun on me, I've never had someone wander into my house or yard, or anything like that. So maybe statewide, sure, but my city is safer than yours, undoubtedly.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The bars that the brothers take me to are sooooo entertaining.

Regarding where I actually live, it's a beach town on a barrier island that is 90% vacant in the off season, with average home values around just south of $1m (and certainly higher in the current inflated market). Vacant rental/summer homes are a natural target for burglaries, although police warn us that car thefts are spiking due to knuckleheads leaving their fobs in the glove compartments and having push-button starts. The midnite intruders I had likely thought my house was vacant. They were quite scared when I confronted them (three teenish guys). I was also naked and carrying a steel demo bar.

Many are the reasons to live in my beloved Garden State.
I'm sure, sounds awesome...
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Old 8th February 2023, 11:15 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
These two things seem at odds with each other. Well, that or you seem to live in an area, or have a reason, to be targeted, including midnight intruders into your house.

That being said, this story makes me feel extremely good about living in Grand Forks, ND rather than New Jersey. I've never even had anyone wonder into my yard around midnight....or ever for that matter. No one's ever come into my house, I can't even think of a single incident since moving here where I've even thought about having or using a gun. Not a single one.

I would never live somewhere that has that type of environment. That sounds ******* terrible. Why would you want to be there?
Grand Forks ND has only slightly lower than average violent crime rates compared to the USA as a whole. There are certainly safer cities in NJ. By comparison, where I live, Albuquerque NM, has rather high rates. Yet in the 25 years I've lived here, there has never been an occasion where I morally (by my reckoning) would've been OK with using deadly force on someone. Legally, *once*, I might have gotten away with it.

Grand Forks violent crime is 17.9. (The US average is 22.7)
Grand Forks property crime is 41.6. (The US average is 35.4) <-- I guess that includes home burglaries?

https://www.bestplaces.net/crime/cit...ta/grand_forks
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Old 8th February 2023, 11:33 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
By state, maybe, but you tell stories of constant danger and police engagement.
Police engagement is due largely to my line of work. Servicing empty houses and someone calls the police, thinking I am a burglar. The cops often get over excited in responding.

Quote:
Outside of getting pulled over for tint on my windows, or an out tail light, I haven't spoken to a police officer (outside of my job) in a decade. I've never had to call them, they've never pulled a gun on me, I've never had someone wander into my house or yard, or anything like that. So maybe statewide, sure, but my city is safer than yours, undoubtedly.
People wandering in comes with the territory. In a place with a lot of summer rentals, people literally mistake the house they rented, because they haven't seen it for more than a few minutes, and their guests sometimes not at all. Once a scruffy ass dude barged through my front door with a literal pipe wrench in his hand. Turned out he was draining the water on my neighbors house and absentmindedly strode into the wrong place. If I kept a gun handy, I could have likely shot him dead in self defense with no legal repercussions.

My point in recounting these is to argue that even a straight up midnite intruder isn't necessarily a threat to the occupants, in contradiction to those who argue that a home invasion justifies use of deadly force. It doesn't. Some home invaders (the majority, I would think) don't want to hurt you. They are petty theives or dumb kids.

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I'm sure, sounds awesome...
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Old 8th February 2023, 11:38 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
Never, ever in the history of smoke detectors has a smoke detector killed someone by just being in the house.
So you're saying guns should be permanently fixed to the ceiling? Well, it would stop the kids getting to them I suppose.
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Old 8th February 2023, 11:45 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So you're saying guns should be permanently fixed to the ceiling? Well, it would stop the kids getting to them I suppose.
You haven't met my kids.
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