Chinese Spy Balloon Over Montana

[Gulliver Foyle]

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto

Better check, "Can you be killed by a falling bullet?", first.

Celebratory gunfire

(The chances are slim but the answer is yes.)

Clapped the wrong post, see my edit.

[sackett]

Originally Posted by alfaniner

There are already a couple of high-profile hoaxes out about it. Twitter shows dozens of article about "something" exploding and falling to the ground in Billings, Montana. They all reference the same source, some woman who claims to have taken the video from her back yard. You'd think other people would have seen and recorded and reported it as well, in the middle of the city no less.

Wellsir, Billings ain't the biggest city in Crow country, and ennyways this time o' year people like to stay in doors n hug the stove. That ole sister might could've bin the only person outside the inside right then. (We build privvies pretty far from the house out west. That can be hard on you eastern dudes, n we kinder like it that way cuz we're so goddang ornrey!)

So them tv fellers've got to work with what God giv em, n here's one ole dirt wrangler that sez

POWDER RIVER LET ER BUCK!

[alfaniner]

Just in: South Carolina citizens are being told by police not to try to shoot the balloon down. True.

[sarge]

Still not a ’spy balloon’, still not an intentional intrusion, still not an intrusion into our controlled airspace until it started sinking, still not a hazard to aircraft, and still no reason to risk shooting it down.

[TragicMonkey]

Originally Posted by sarge

Still not a ’spy balloon’, still not an intentional intrusion, still not an intrusion into our controlled airspace until it started sinking, still not a hazard to aircraft, and still no reason to risk shooting it down.

On the other hand, it's uninvited and may be full of delicious candy. Heck, we shoot people for less reason than that, a balloon shouldn't be a second's thought!

[alfaniner]

Now over NC. Ground stop on all commercial flights in the area. Looks like they are going to try to acquire or destroy it before it flies too far out of our airspace.

[ohms]

Flights delayed and NOTAM issued off the coast of the Carolinas. Shoot down of the balloon expected imminently.

[sarge]

The balloon has been killed. Fox watchers can relax now that ‘merica has been saved from this Chinese invasion.

[Thermal]

We're Americans. We shoot things. It's what we do.

I mean, I'm shocked every New Year's when that freaking Times Square ball makes it down in one piece.

[Doubt]

Originally Posted by sarge

The balloon has been killed. Fox watchers can relax now that ‘merica has been saved from this Chinese invasion.

The new narrative could be that Biden shot it down to hide something. There is always a way to spin it.

[Dr.Sid]

Originally Posted by Doubt

The new narrative could be that Biden shot it down to hide something. There is always a way to spin it.

Indeed. If he shot it right away, Fox would paint Biden as warmongering gun lunatic. But that would be more funny imho.

[Thermal]

If there's even one ballot in there, so help me God...

[Myriad]

One shot down, one over South America... where are the other 97?

[jadebox]

Originally Posted by sarge

I didn’t. The ballon was reported to have been above the limits of our controlled airspace when it crossed our borders.

It was stated that it was high enough that it wouldn't affect air traffic over the US. I don't think that's the same as saying it is outside the US territorial airspace.

[Checkmite]

No, but controlled airspace refers to the area that is controlled. By traffic services, that is.

[jadebox]

Originally Posted by Checkmite

No, but controlled airspace refers to the area that is controlled. By traffic services, that is.

Yes, but not relevant.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

Clapped the wrong post, see my edit.

But. But. It did seem to fit!

[Checkmite]

Quote:

America needs to broadcast those limits now. We understand the military doesn’t want to put civilians at risk from falling debris, but there must be a way to limit exposure over the Midwest.

That's brilliant. "There just has to be a way to do this. I have no idea what that could be, but Biden is bad for not doing it."

[sarge]

Originally Posted by jadebox

It was stated that it was high enough that it wouldn't affect air traffic over the US. I don't think that's the same as saying it is outside the US territorial airspace.

It was reported to have been above class A airspace. That is outside our controlled airspace. The airspace that we exercise jurisdictional control over has defined limits. There isn’t an inch of sky over our land that isn’t clearly defined by type. This ballon, when it crossed our borders, according to the first report I read, was above the upper limits of Class-A airspace.

‘Territorial’ airspace has no real meaning without defined vertical limits. Russian and Chinese satellites cross our borders hourly……without committing an invasion. This balloon, at the time it crossed our borders, was no different from a legal or a practical standpoint.

[jadebox]

That the US is apparently preparing to shoot down the balloon is pretty good evidence that it is considered to be inside US airspace.

[ZiprHead]

Video of the balloon being shot down.

[The Great Zaganza]

Not just airspace, but entering a restricted zone, probably.

[novaphile]

Originally Posted by ZiprHead

Video of the balloon being shot down.

I wonder if the twinkly bits are the solar panels falling separately?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by jadebox

That the US is apparently preparing to shoot down the balloon is pretty good evidence that it is considered to be inside US airspace.

I'm not sure about that. When the US drops bombs on Russian mercenaries in Syria, is it pretty good evidence that they're considered to be on US soil?

[sarge]

Originally Posted by jadebox

That the US is apparently preparing to shoot down the balloon is pretty good evidence that it is considered to be inside US airspace.

No, it obviously is not.

And you omit that the ballon entered over our borders at an altitude above our controlled airspace.

[jadebox]

I am not sure how to respond to the non-sensical responses other than to ask ...

If the balloon wasn't in US airspace, what is the justification for shooting it down?

Edit: Even the spokesperson for the Chinese Foreign Ministry admits that the balloon entered US airspace:

Quote:

The airship is from China. It is a civilian airship used for research, mainly meteorological, purposes. Affected by the Westerlies and with limited self-steering capability, the airship deviated far from its planned course. The Chinese side regrets the unintended entry of the airship into US airspace due to force majeure. The Chinese side will continue communicating with the US side and properly handle this unexpected situation caused by force majeure.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by jadebox

I am not sure how to respond to the non-sensical responses other than to ask ...

If the balloon wasn't in US airspace, what is the justification for shooting it down?

1. Navigational hazard.

2. Full of Chinese bits and bobs someone would like to get a closer look at.

I mean, look: This balloon is kind of a unique event. You're probably not going to find a binary rule in a system of formal logic governing national security, international relations, aerospace technology, and military readiness, that tells when or how to shoot it down.

About the only thing you can reasonably conclude from this incident is that it suited the US government to let it fly for a time, and then it suited the US government to shoot it down. Trying to intuit some definitive guideline about the nature and sacrosanctity of US airspace is as pointless as it is unnecessary.

[Trebuchet]

Biden ordered it shot down on Wednesday, but deferred until it was over water to avoid possible hazards, as advised by the military. What a loser! Trump woulda shot it down over JINA!

[jt512]

Originally Posted by sarge

I didn’t. The ballon was reported to have been above the limits of our controlled airspace when it crossed our borders.

It was above controlled airspace, but that's just the airspace in which air traffic is under the control of ATC. The balloon was (it has now been shot down) within US sovereign airspace.

[Skeptical Greg]

When I first sow the thread title without focusing in on it, I thought it was:

"Chinese Soy Balloon Over Montana"

And thought, we can really use that technology..

[sarge]

Originally Posted by jt512

It was above controlled airspace, but that's just the airspace in which air traffic is under the control of ATC. The balloon was (it has now been shot down) within US sovereign airspace.

Please provide an authoritative cite for the airspace that is outside controlled airspace but still within ‘sovereign’ airspace that defines the upper limits of ‘sovereign’ airspace.

[Skeptical Greg]

If it wasn't anyone's sovereign airspace, what authority would prohibit anyone from shooting it down?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by sarge

Please provide an authoritative cite for the airspace that is outside controlled airspace but still within ‘sovereign’ airspace that defines the upper limits of ‘sovereign’ airspace.

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

If it wasn't anyone's sovereign airspace, what authority would prohibit anyone from shooting it down?

That's what I want to know.

sarge, where are you going with this line of reasoning? Are you going to conclude that, absent an authoritative cite, shooting down Chinese property over a US territory is some kind of brinkmanship? China could complain to the UNSC that shooting down their balloon in the upper atmosphere over Montana was an unjustified escalation and a breach of the principles of international law?

[Thermal]

When you have the planet's and history's most powerful military, you don't really have to justify dick.

Although the limited nuclear war sparked by this freaking balloon will take attention off Putin for a bit.

[jadebox]

Both US and Chinese officials agree that the balloon was in US airspace. So, I also wonder what the point is.

[Jack by the hedge]

I'm picturing the Chinese being annoyed that the US waited till the balloon had dropped to about half its original altitude and shot it down with a weapon China already knows about, when the whole point of the mission was to be a cheap and easy ruse to get the US to show its hand and demonstrate some super high altitude capability the Chinese only guessed at.

[Skeptical Greg]

[sarge]

Originally Posted by jadebox

Both US and Chinese officials agree that the balloon was in US airspace. So, I also wonder what the point is.

Please provide an authoritative cite for the airspace that is outside controlled airspace but still within ‘sovereign’ airspace that defines the upper limits of ‘sovereign’ airspace.

[theprestige]

The MIC's most powerful weapon isn't high altitude lasers. It's downplaying its capabilities so that Congress will give it another billion dollars to lap the enemy again.

And if there's one thing we should learn from Ukraine, it's that they're right. It's infinitely preferable to be able to curb stomp an enemy with treasure, than to sacrifice real blood in an existential conflict with a near peer.

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by sarge

Please provide an authoritative cite for the airspace that is outside controlled airspace but still within ‘sovereign’ airspace that defines the upper limits of ‘sovereign’ airspace.

I'm pretty sure the only thing that authoritatively defines US sovereign airspace is the US's ability to engage targets in that airspace. Regardless of whether the US decides to exercise that authority in specific cases, and regardless of whether the US deigns to codify that authority in some kind of formal statement or multilateral agreement.