AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[boloboffin]

Hey, but you seem to be finding your way around all right...

[LashL]

Originally Posted by SidDithers

Heya bolo!
Finally found my way over. This place is huge
Sid

Hey! Great to see you here, Sid. Welcome

ETA: There has been a recent influx of troofers here who appear to be bound and bent on making this sub-forum look bad by burying some of the amazing and substantive threads with a bunch of crap, but don't be dissuaded by that ~ the substance is easy to find.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by boloboffin

I'm not following this. There are no other numbers under the 238 reading for pressure altitude. Wouldn't that be last paired with last?

In the film, Carl (Snowygrouch) is not even concerned with pressure alt. He only quotes radio alt.

Bonus: The roll and pitch angle (sorry, no correlation with counter that I can see, but this is the last bit of recorded data) from the "decoded" FDR raw data.



The ND stands for blank fields in both of these columns. By my guess that means that data wasn't in the buffer to be recorded - and there's no telling if that last data bit is the same frame as the last alt readings.

But look at that roll. That's consistent with the right wing rising to avoid the transformer, right?

Positive is right wing down. Look at the turn, the big turn form 7000 feet down to 2000 feet is a turn, right turn.

I think the plane is about 3000 feet away still doing what the people on the ground said it was doing. Wings moving back and forth.

The final left bank would be negative.

[boloboffin]

Originally Posted by beachnut

Positive is right wing down. Look at the turn, the big turn form 7000 feet down to 2000 feet is a turn, right turn.

I think the plane is about 3000 feet away still doing what the people on the ground said it was doing. Wings moving back and forth.

The final left bank would be negative.

Ah. So the final data in the FDR doesn't even begin to show the final left bank. Thanks for that.

Man, good times over at DU's 9/11 forum. Rob showed up for a while and started in on that testy act he does so well. We even got Carl (SG) to post once. And just now someone finally posted a link to a DU thread where woody box had FIVE witnesses that reported a flyover. Well, not quite. These were people who thought the smoke was rising from the 14th St Bridge or somewhere else on the other side of the Pentagon. And right in that thread was the postings of Albert Hemphill, who quite simply saw the plane hit the building.

You have to love these self-debunking CT advocates.

[SidDithers]

...

[SidDithers]

Originally Posted by LashL

Hey! Great to see you here, Sid. Welcome

ETA: There has been a recent influx of troofers here who appear to be bound and bent on making this sub-forum look bad by burying some of the amazing and substantive threads with a bunch of crap, but don't be dissuaded by that ~ the substance is easy to find.

Thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to participating once I've got the lay of the land

Cheers.

Sid

[MarcoPolo]

First off, I'm glad I found this place. What I'm upset about is that all you NWO folks were keeping it from me for so long. How did you do that?

But to the meat of my post.

I run my own forum and someone claiming to be from Pilots for Truth came in and posted this comment regarding this thread:

Quote:

The JREF Forum deleted the above reply to their thread. They only want people to see what they want you to see.

If anyone has any further questions, feel free to email us at pilots(at)pilotsfor911truth(dot)org.

He posted what appear to be a bunch of links to the Pilots for Truth forum discussing the following claims, which were apparently made in this thread:

Quote:

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

Claim -
The Flight Data Recorder was found in the Pentagon. How can it be too high?

He posted a bunch of links and I'd like to give you the link to the post in question, but I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to get a cheap link back to my forum.

Do you know what post this is and if not, can I provide you with the link to the post on my forum?

Thanks!
David

[uk_dave]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

Do you know what post this is and if not, can I provide you with the link to the post on my forum?

Thanks!
David

Of course you can. We can never have too many Davids in the NWO....I mean, JREF.

[apathoid]

Welcome David. We've seen it before, Rob has an armada of messengers he sends here to keep us informed of his newest BS. I don't believe I've addressed the claims, so I'll do it briefly now.

Quote:

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Strawman.

Quote:

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

PfT's own decode of the data supports this claim. The final lat/long - or - heading/DME combination puts AA77 anywhere from 0.5 miles to 1.2 miles from impact, or 3 to 7 seconds.

Quote:

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

PfT's own decode shows that the altimeter is lagging when you compare pressure altitude with the radio altitide. At the end of the recorded data the radalt is 273' while the (corrected)pressure altitude is 485'.

Incedentally, AA77 was descending at around 60' per second in the final several frames. The 273' of altitude in the final data frame put's the airplane around 4 seconds out. See #2.

Quote:

Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

Strawman.

Quote:

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

False. We maintain that the CSV released by the NTSB as well as PfTs very own decode of the data - indicate a true track of 61 degrees and a magnetic heading of 70 degrees. When corrected for wind drift, these values agree very well with each other.

You can see this yourself rather easily if you have Photoshop. Open Google earth, position the eyepoint at about 2000', click the "N" button which orients the map to true north. Take a screencap, open with Photoshop, and rotate the canvas 61 degrees and draw a line straight up and down the image centered over the impact point. The resultant flightpath agrees perfectly with the "official" flightpath.

The animation flight path was off 21 degrees. Since magnetic variation in the area is 10.5 degrees, its safe to assume that, in the working copy given to PfT, the NTSB simply rotated the floor map the wrong direction.

Quote:

Claim -
The Flight Data Recorder was found in the Pentagon. How can it be too high?

It was found at the Pentagon. But assuming it was all faked, why would the perps fake the data to show an aircraft several hundred feet too high? They wouldn't.

It's also worth noting that the (hundred +)eyewitness accounts of the impact suggested an aircraft which was extremely low just before impact. Even the PentaCons star witnesses suggest this very low flightpath. Noone saw an aircraft between 300-500'.

[MarcoPolo]

Originally Posted by uk_dave

Of course you can. We can never have too many Davids in the NWO....I mean, JREF.

Ok, here's the thread.

debatenation(dot)com/forums/showthread.php?t=119

[MarcoPolo]

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

[uk_dave]

Quote:

http://www.debatenation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119

done

[apathoid]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Don't bother. If you don't toe the company line, they'll brand you a government loyalist, summarily ban you, and possibly call for your execution(not joking).

It's possibly the most censored forum in the history of the internet.

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Of course its that way. Rob Balsamo is basically a coward who only wants those who will view him on a high pedastal to be able to view his entire forum. My Gawd, do you know what would happen if he allowed everyone to see what his posters write in threads in which he actually alows non-fans of his to post? The publicly viewable forum threads are bad enough.


To my knowledge none of any of Balsamo's posts with any relevent content were removed. Some may have been moved to other sub-forums and others may have been removed or eduted for breech of forum rules. It is odd that he would complain about it since, as was said above, his forum is likely one of the most censored forums on the internet.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

In the thread in question, he provided a bunch of links to the PFT forums that you apparently have to be registered to view. I haven't gone through the trouble of registering yet.

Then you will be able to see the group think of false information. They have to agree to post, and are banned when you start to use your brain. They boast of members to the forum as some sign of greatness, they do not understand 90 percent just were interested in seeing mental illness in action. You do not have to post.

On TV we had the soupNazi, at p4tf we have the truthNazi. no truth for you! Rob, the p4t chief censorNazi.

[Anti-sophist]

This list of supposed "claims" of ours isn't even accurate, let alone comprehensive. Most importantly, this dopey attempt at a comprehensive rebuttal has missed the vast majority of our most important points. Their attempted rebuttal is as poorly organized and researched as their AA77 claims.

Quote:

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org
Claim - The Information that P4T has analyzed may not be from the NTSB (P4T may have fabricated the information and claims it came from the NTSB)

These are outright lies. We are fully aware of the organization and its members. Furthermore, while I'm not going to vouch for the authenticity of any of their materials, I have seen absolutely no evidence nor any reason to believe they've fabricated anything.

Quote:

Claim - There is altimeter lag in the animation and csv file due to flying outside the aircraft envelope.

The implication here is that the altimeter is, in fact, lagging. I don't know of anyone who has asserted that that speed/pressure is the reason as much as we've asserted the likelihood of that explanation.

Quote:

Claim - The csv file and animation show a heading along the official flight path.

This is half right and half wrong. The CSV file does show a correct heading.

Nowhere have we ever claimed the animation is right. This is another outright lie, especially considering we claim the exact opposite. It is very clear that the animation is in disagreement with both the CSV file and reality in regards to the track of the aircraft. The likely cause of this error has already been isolated.

Quote:

Claim - The FDR is missing 2-6 seconds of data

This is clearly an issue I need to revisit because numerous people have messaged me over various comments and factoids and I've kept putting it off and saying I'd get around to it eventually. I will.. eventually.

----

Most importantly, if that poster believes the above is a fair characterization of the criticisms of his organization and it's "research", he's severely missed the point. By and large this thread (and a small handful of others) has systematically dismantled every claim pilotsfor911truth has ever made. My original post was meant to derail a very specific subset of their analysis based on their misunderstand of the FDR and it grew way beyond that over the months to a systematic debunking of everything they had to say, especially when taken with the small other handful of really substantiative threads. I do not know a single pfT claim that hasn't been conclusively debunked somewhere... the problem is we have no central repository of that knowledge.

[Anti-sophist]

I clicked on that link. I've seen that exact same post copied and pasted all over the internet. It's simply a proof by overwhelming gibberish. The more links the better, no matter how off-topic, tangentially related, poorly interpreted, or fundamentally flawed it may be.

Every single one of their claims has been systematically and thoroughly demolished from start to finish. The problem is it takes us several pages of talking about and fixing each other's mistakes to finally work out all the details of exactly how wrong they are.

Our threads slowly die away, and they repeat the same tired nonsense. Over and over.

It's the power of copy&paste and proof by exhausting your opponents. They aren't interested in who is right and wrong. They are interested in repeating their same tired tripe over and over until we get tired of repeating the answers. They've pretty much "won" in that respect... we are sick of repeating ourselves. They've had nothing new to say for months, and everything old they've said has been demolished more times then I can count. The main reason we aren't putting up much of a fight any more is because they've basically dropped to the fringe of the truth movement.

[BeAChooser]

Originally Posted by MarcoPolo

Claim - There are No pilots at pilotsfor911truth.org

Well I haven't been here long enough myself to tell you what has been "claimed" here regarding pilotsfor911truth, but I can tell you that very few *qualified* pilots have joined that organization. They show a total of 41 members (which in itself shows how slowly their organization is growing since several months ago the total was 25) of which (according to them) 20 are pilots/aviation professionals. That's rather small when you consider just how many commercial and non-commercial pilots there are in this country alone. The FAA estimates there are over 600,000 active pilots in the US. That includes over 130,000 commercial pilots and another 140,000 airline transport pilots. And only 20 have joined? Now ask yourself why that is ...

[Anti-sophist]

MarcoPolo,

The poster you are dealing with is Rob Balasmo aka JohnDoeX aka JDX. He is the "head" of pilots for 911 truth. The posts are his copy/pasting to you are his own that he has pasted all over the internet in an attempt to get more attention. It may seem like he is quoting other people, but he's not. It's him. It's all him. Please do not be fooled that this is some professional operation and you are dealing with some member with varied resources and expertise at his disposal. It's a single very disturbed individual.

You aren't the first person to be hit with this copy&paste gibberish and you won't be the last. This man is a habitual liar and a coward and he -will- draw you into the longest and most pointless debate rife with logical fallacy, scientific incompetence, and threats of physical harm. He doesn't care about debate and I'm fairly certain that all he wants is attention to sell DVDs. That's only explanation for why he has continued to repeat the same tired lies, bouncing from website to website. His only goal is self-promotion.

All of the lies in these posts have been posted and reposted numerous times and debunked systematically and repeatedly. Of that, I can assure you.

Your best bet is to ignore him and hope he goes away. Publish a link to this thread and if anyone has any further questions to come here and ask us directly. If there is any particular claim of his that you want debunked, let us know, and we'll look up the older posts detailing such. We've been over these same claims so many times that it's become a waste of time, to be honest. I'm tempted to put together a FAQ just for JDX but frankly he's not that important with his one-man-show for attention.

If I can be of additional service, let me know.

[furrod]

Oh man!
I read the entire freakin’ thread, watched as Anti-sophist systematically took-down UnderTow (sounds like I’m describing professional wrestling), and then when it looked like there was little else to add to the subject, Snowygrouch shows up with a compelling plot twist. I get to the end of the thread, looking for a satisfactory conclusion and ….nothing! Argh!

1. Did Snowygrouch ever complete his analysis of the raw data?
2. If so, did it match up with what Anti-sophist was saying?
3. If not, is there an explanation?
4. Did the raw data ever get shared and the original analysis duplicated?
5. I think the P4T guys still hold that the NTSB info does not match up to the “official story”. Is this because of Snowygrouch’s work with the raw FDR data or are they falling back on their erroneous CSV analysis?

Sorry if some of these questions have been answered, here or elsewhere. After reading this thread, my eyes hurt and I’m not entirely sure I am any wiser than when I started.

[Gravy]

I'll be glad to share that information with you. I believe very strongly, as any Constitution-respecting patriot would, in sharing vital information like this. It's all on my debunking DVD "You opened a can of worms, I opened a can of whup-ass," which is only $18.95, and which includes a bonus DVD of Rob Balsamo's Greatest Threats and Boffo Bannings. Payment is by PayPal or postal money order. Please add $8.49 for shipping and handling.

[Boone 870]

I'll pay $200 for the early release autographed edition. I mean I'll donate $200 if you give it to me for free.

[AMTMAN]

[quote=Anti-sophist;2756342]MarcoPolo,

The poster you are dealing with is Rob Balasmo aka JohnDoeX aka JDX. He is the "head" of pilots for 911 truth. The posts are his copy/pasting to you are his own that he has pasted all over the internet in an attempt to get more attention. It may seem like he is quoting other people, but he's not. It's him. It's all him. Please do not be fooled that this is some professional operation and you are dealing with some member with varied resources and expertise at his disposal. It's a single very disturbed individual.

You aren't the first person to be hit with this copy&paste gibberish and you won't be the last. This man is a habitual liar and a coward and he -will- draw you into the longest and most pointless debate rife with logical fallacy, scientific incompetence, and threats of physical harm. He doesn't care about debate and I'm fairly certain that all he wants is attention to sell DVDs. That's only explanation for why he has continued to repeat the same tired lies, bouncing from website to website. His only goal is self-promotion. QUOTE]

As many of us have found out, myself included.

[furrod]

Originally Posted by AMTMAN

Originally Posted by Anti-sophist

MarcoPolo,

The poster you are dealing with is Rob Balasmo aka JohnDoeX aka JDX. He is the "head" of pilots for 911 truth. The posts are his copy/pasting to you are his own that he has pasted all over the internet in an attempt to get more attention. It may seem like he is quoting other people, but he's not. It's him. It's all him. Please do not be fooled that this is some professional operation and you are dealing with some member with varied resources and expertise at his disposal. It's a single very disturbed individual.

You aren't the first person to be hit with this copy&paste gibberish and you won't be the last. This man is a habitual liar and a coward and he -will- draw you into the longest and most pointless debate rife with logical fallacy, scientific incompetence, and threats of physical harm. He doesn't care about debate and I'm fairly certain that all he wants is attention to sell DVDs. That's only explanation for why he has continued to repeat the same tired lies, bouncing from website to website. His only goal is self-promotion.

As many of us have found out, myself included.

Are you guys saying that Rob Balasmo is also UnderTow and Snowygrouch, and the only way to find out the thrilling conclusion to this saga is to buy a DVD from the P4T?

[AMTMAN]

Originally Posted by furrod

Are you guys saying that Rob Balasmo is also UnderTow and Snowygrouch, and the only way to find out the thrilling conclusion to this saga is to buy a DVD from the P4T?

Don't forget to buy the PfT mug so you can drink your Kool Aid. Or the BBQ apron so you can look oh so stylish grilling burgers.

[JimBenArm]

Originally Posted by AMTMAN

Don't forget to buy the PfT mug so you can drink your Kool Aid. Or the BBQ apron so you can look oh so stylish grilling burgers.

Doesn't McDonald's supply uniforms?

[Calcas]

Originally Posted by furrod

Are you guys saying that Rob Balasmo is also UnderTow and Snowygrouch, and the only way to find out the thrilling conclusion to this saga is to buy a DVD from the P4T?

Undertow is not Balsamo. I think he's the guy that did the actual "decoding" of the FDR since Rob has no idea and wouldn't know heads from tails. I think he used to post at the old lcf and perhaps his identity is even known. No biggie.

Snowygrouch was a one time poster (joined Jan 4th and made 4 posts that day) with nothing since. He was probably a Rob sock.

[Anti-sophist]

As for the cast of characters, I'm fairly certain the UnderTow, JDX/Rob, and snowygrouch are all different people.

Snowygrouch, I believe, is Callum Douglas.

Originally Posted by furrod

1. Did Snowygrouch ever complete his analysis of the raw data?

Sort of. I'm pretty sure he is Callum Douglas and he has given "talks" at conferences and some such. No whitepapers or anything else that I would consider "analysis". Mostly DVD filler material, as best as I can tell.

You can find youtube videos of it, I think.

Quote:

2. If so, did it match up with what Anti-sophist was saying?
3. If not, is there an explanation?

I forget the conversation specifics so you'd need to be more specific. Callum's "presentations" contained largely identical claims as JDX has made repeatedly and I didn't find anything in them of any interest.

I might have missed something.

Quote:

4. Did the raw data ever get shared and the original analysis duplicated?

To my knowledge, no. I've had several people PM me offering a data frame-layout so that I could verify their decodings. I've turned down all of those offers because I don't really feel like endangering peoples jobs for such silliness.

One of them, at least, ignored my refusal, and emailed me the frame layout anyway. If I ever decide to revisit the issue, I'll check their decoding of the "full" data to make sure it matches.

Quote:

5. I think the P4T guys still hold that the NTSB info does not match up to the “official story”. Is this because of Snowygrouch’s work with the raw FDR data or are they falling back on their erroneous CSV analysis?

They've migrated almost all of their claims away from the flawed CSV claims and toward the newer decoding stuff. The problem is their newer decoded data uncovers newer and more exciting flaws in their analysis.

The problem with this thread is that it's actually fairly dated and it's been so effective that many of the original claims in play when I wrote it are no longer being made.

Let me know the claims you are specifically interested in, and I'll dig up the responses from me/apathoid/beachnut that deal with it.

[CurtC]

In the interest of tying up loose ends, I recall that P4T's decoding of the data showed that the data record ended when 77 was around 500 feet up, but somewhere close to the Sheraton at that time. This is more than a mile from the Pentagon, with plenty of distance left to get down to light-pole altitude when it got to that intersection.

Thus, their analysis seemed to refute their whole raison d'etre. Shouldn't they have simply disbanded after that, or am I recalling wrongly?

[Anti-sophist]

Originally Posted by CurtC

In the interest of tying up loose ends, I recall that P4T's decoding of the data showed that the data record ended when 77 was around 500 feet up, but somewhere close to the Sheraton at that time. This is more than a mile from the Pentagon, with plenty of distance left to get down to light-pole altitude when it got to that intersection.

Thus, their analysis seemed to refute their whole raison d'etre. Shouldn't they have simply disbanded after that, or am I recalling wrongly?

They have conveniently ignored the fact that the data they decoded shows the plane was 6+ seconds from impact.

The way they justify this is great:
The regulation says an FDR can only lose at most 1.5 seconds of data when it loses power. (And an L3 communications engineer verified that their recorders meet this requirement)

When AA77 hit the pentagon, the FDR lost power. Therefore, it could have at most 1.5 seconds missing.

The concept that crashing into reinforced concrete at 500mph isn't the same as "losing power" doesn't occur to JDX. Furthermore, it's still a "proof by regulation". It's sorta like claiming that OJ is innocent of murder because murder is illegal. Therefore, he couldn't have done it. Despite, ya know.. the evidence. We have an identical situation. He's citing regulations and designs.. in attempt to make the evidence of what actually happened go away.

I have, as of yet, seen any evidence-based rational for their dismissal of the very obvious evidence that their time-scale of all their analysis is shifted forward in time.

[mortimer]

Originally Posted by JimBenArm

Doesn't McDonald's supply uniforms?

ZING!

[soylent]

Originally Posted by kevin

the traditional word is 16 bits but I think this usage is appropriate, although you might explain the difference between the traditional word in computers and how you're using it. Just to avoid accusations you don't know what you're talking about.

I don't think you can say that. All sorts of word sizes have been used on different processors(I've even heard of a processor that used 39 bits).

[Turbofan]

Quote:

Solid State Recorders, like all medium, are quite unpredictable if they fail during write operations. The actual area being used to record data can very easily be corrupted if power fails while writing. It’s plausible that the crash caused problems in and around this local area of data, causing corruption of the 9:37:45 data frame (again, changing a single bit in a synch word is enough to cause software to completely choke).

I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse this question if it has
already been addressed:

Are you stating that the data recorded in solid state memory was partially
corrupt (specifically the last two seconds?)?

L3 communications certifies their FDR's up to 3400 g's of impact force.
Are you stating that the data recorder selectively re-wrote the last
two seconds of data upon impact ?

What software are you referring to? If a bit was dropped, how is said
software effected? When you say software, are you referring to firmware
instead?

Would you agree that the data bus and FDR had power at least until the
nose of the plane impacted the Pentagon wall?

Would you agree that serial, multi-plexed data would continue to write
to the FDR solid state memory if one, or more sensors failed?

What causes 'pressure lag', or data lag at sea level that would not be
realized at 25,000+ feet at 500+ MPH?

Thank you for your time Anti-sophist.

[beachnut]

Originally Posted by Turbofan

L3 communications certifies their FDR's up to 3400 g's of impact force.

So? The one thing missing when looking at the FDR for all of us is total understanding of the entire system. This includes but is not limited to the engines of the plane supplying power to the electrical system, the generators, generator drives, battery, TRs, the FDR system itself. In the FDR system, of 77, the data collected in a second is transferred by the bus at the same speed. The data flows at 3072 bit per second, gee, the amount of data collected in a second is 3072 bits! What does the system do if there is a delay? Is the delay data buffered until it can be COMPRESSED and ENCODED so it can be STORED in the secure chip. Because the stuff not in the SECURE CHIP ENCLOSURE is toast when the nose hits the Pentagon!!! I could care less what the FDR can stand in Gs! The system that supplies the data to the FDR secure section is not able to handle 3400 Gs. If you can look up the number of Gs the system can take, why not look up how the system handles delays in the data stream, how much data is in the pipeline to be stored, worse case? What happens to the data in the pipeline when the system is smashed up? What does this spec, 3400 gs have to do with 9/11 and flight 77?

Originally Posted by Turbofan

Are you stating that the data recorder selectively re-wrote the last two seconds of data upon impact ?

The data is encoded, how is it encoded and the last data written would be corrupt unless there was power to the system to finish the data stream encoding and compression; at least the data of interest for the terminally stupid CTers. The FDR is not used to settle made up CTs by people like 9/11 truth who manufacture lies, false information and implied Looney tune conclusions. What does this have to do with 77 hitting the Pentagon?

Originally Posted by Turbofan

Would you agree that the data bus and FDR had power at least until the nose of the plane impacted the Pentagon wall?

NO! The terrorist pilot was in a PIO in pitch, the G force on the plane was varying the last 20 seconds due to pilot input on the stick (yoke) from 1.3, 0.3, 1.7, 0.3, 1.5, 0.8, 1.75, .6. In the last data point the most extreme stick down force was introduced, there is a lag between this and the maximum g force. 1 g is normal, we are at 1 g most of the time. Can you tell me if the aircraft Generators can handle .2 g, because the input on the last data point could have generated a negative g, and if the Generator drives are not made for that, they trip, removing power about the time all those Witnesses said the 77 pitched down a lot! Power off, the last 3 to 5 seconds are missing! Gee, has anyone told me how the system, the FDR system handles data backups? What does this have to do with 77 hitting the Pentagon?


Did these questions come from seeing Pilots for truth?: p4t, spew pure junk. They say the system can not have more than a .5 second data lag, but they can not produce the spec (most likely this is a transport lag)! They say a bunch of junk to sell DVDs to real dumb people who love a conspiracy made up by snake oil salesmen of the internet; p4t. Many examples of FDR missing data. This is why the standard for FDR change all the time. The new recorders are going to have power back up so the system can record data, data available during power failure. The FDR from 77 was found in the Pentagon providing one piece of evidence which destroys the liars of 9/11 truth who spread false ideas in medium of questions. Even p4t are unable to make theories and conclusions about 9/11 due to ZERO evidence to support them, they can not even produce more than hearsay sources for their claims. Not the kind of pilots you want in the left seat, these guys posses no knowledge and judgment to make rational decisions on 9/11, what makes you think they can do better at flying?

[Turbofan]

Originally Posted by beachnut

[color=black][font=Verdana] So? The one thing missing when looking at the FDR for all of us is total understanding of the entire system. This includes but is not limited to the engines of the plane supplying power to the electrical system, the generators, generator drives, battery, TRs, the FDR system itself. In the FDR system, of 77, the data collected in a second is transferred by the bus at the same speed. The data flows at 3072 bit per second, gee, the amount of data collected in a second is 3072 bits! What does the system do if there is a delay?

Quite simply put without smoke and mirrors: the data received from the
sensor is stored in the solid state crash protected memory within 0.5
seconds (worst case). You are confusing bus speed, and polling time
with propagation delay.

Quote:

Is the delay data buffered until it can be COMPRESSED and ENCODED so it can be STORED in the secure chip. Because the stuff not in the SECURE CHIP ENCLOSURE is toast when the nose hits the Pentagon!!!

Fine. Then why does the NTSB animation stop before impact? Where
is the data between the stop point, and impact point?

Quote:

I could care less what the FDR can stand in Gs! The system that supplies the data to the FDR secure section is not able to handle 3400 Gs. If you can look up the number of Gs the system can take, why not look up how the system handles delays in the data stream, how much data is in the pipeline to be stored, worse case? What happens to the data in the pipeline when the system is smashed up?

After 500 milliseconds (worst case), that information would not have
reached the memory and stored. Confirmed by L3 communications.

Quote:

What does this spec, 3400 gs have to do with 9/11 and flight 77?

Because some of you claim the impact force damaged the crash protected
memory. This is a false claim.

Quote:

The data is encoded, how is it encoded and the last data written would be corrupt unless there was power to the system to finish the data stream encoding and compression; at least the data of interest for the terminally stupid CTers.

Once again, only 500 milliseconds would be corrupt. How do you explain
the missing radar altimeter info in the CSV file? It's in the raw data!

Quote:

NO! The terrorist pilot was in a PIO in pitch, the G force on the plane was varying the last 20 seconds due to pilot input on the stick (yoke) from 1.3, 0.3, 1.7, 0.3, 1.5, 0.8, 1.75, .6. In the last data point the most extreme stick down force was introduced, there is a lag between this and the maximum g force. 1 g is normal, we are at 1 g most of the time. Can you tell me if the aircraft Generators can handle .2 g, because the input on the last data point could have generated a negative g, and if the Generator drives are not made for that, they trip, removing power about the time all those Witnesses said the 77 pitched down a lot!

Guess what? You can move the stick until you're blue in the face. The
movement of the airplane generates the g force, not the yoke movement!!!

The data, and animation shows nothing in the way of extreme alt. changes
to produce such a lag.

Quote:

Power off, the last 3 to 5 seconds are missing! Gee, has anyone told me how the system, the FDR system handles data backups? What does this have to do with 77 hitting the Pentagon?

Once again, the animation stops pre-impact. Where is the data up until
the impact point. The FDR still had power!

Quote:

They say the system can not have more than a .5 second data lag, but they can not produce the spec (most likely this is a transport lag)!

L3 communications certifies the FDR's. Do you know what it takes to
certify a commercial airliner for passenger flight?

Do you know what checks need to happen before the plane takes off
prior to flight? If you knew, you wouldn't have typed your statement.

Quote:

Even p4t are unable to make theories and conclusions about 9/11 due to ZERO evidence to support them, they can not even produce more than hearsay sources for their claims.

The NTSB supplied the data. It doesn't support the official story. WHy
are you slamming PFT?

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by Turbofan

Guess what? You can move the stick until you're blue in the face. The
movement of the airplane generates the g force, not the yoke movement!!!

The data, and animation shows nothing in the way of extreme alt. changes
to produce such a lag.

So, you're saying that you can move the stick (yoke) all over the place and this doesn't make the aircraft move in response? At least that what it sounds like you are saying.

I assume beachnut's g data is from the FDR. Doesn't that show the aircraft was responding to input from the yoke?

I'm confused.

[Turbofan]

Mr. Skinny,

What I am stating is that the yoke movements captured in the data file
do not produce the g forces measured by the sensors.

The body of the aircraft does not respond in a 1:1 relation with the yoke
input as the mass of the plane, air pressure, inertia, etc. must be considered.

When viewing the simulator animation, you can confirm this by viewing the
plane's movement with respect to the yoke input.

[Mr. Skinny]

Originally Posted by Turbofan

Mr. Skinny,

What I am stating is that the yoke movements captured in the data file
do not produce the g forces measured by the sensors.

The body of the aircraft does not respond in a 1:1 relation with the yoke
input as the mass of the plane, air pressure, inertia, etc. must be considered.

When viewing the simulator animation, you can confirm this by viewing the
plane's movement with respect to the yoke input.

Understand that there is not an exact 1:1 relationship, but doesn't beachnuts graph show the actual g forces from the FDR?

It's not showing stick movement directly, but beachnut is rightly assuming, I believe, that the g forces shown are indicative of Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO).


ETA: Beachnut's graph isn't properly labeled so I'm not sure what it shows. Just assuming it's g's

[Turbofan]

I'll have to check my copy of the data file again. I don't see this trend,
and it certainly doesn't show up in the simulation video.

Here is something I'd like to present about the FDR data and how solid state
storage systems function.

It's a parallel between your car's computer, and how a flight data recoder
operates. This is a basic overview to help the average person understand
why the missing and erroneous data presented by the NTSB does not
make sense.

I wont tell you want my area of expertise, profession, or experience is
because I've seen/read what many have said about Gage, Jones, Balsamo, etc.

Apparently, education and experience doesn't get you far in this world...

So here's my write up about data storage on a very basic level. I will
answer any questions you might have about this information, and FDR
related data as best I can.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I'd like to bring your attention to a device that almost everyone has in their vehicle since inception of computer
controlled engines. I say almost everyone because some of you many still drive vehicles that do not use computer
control.

Your car, much like a commercial airliner has a controller and data recording device which reads important
sensor information, and adjusts parameters to maintain engine operation. The computer, often referred to
as Powertrain Control Module (PCM), or Vehicle Control Module (VCM) also stores operation parameters, and
fault data.

Believe it, or not, your modern day car uses a program which dictates how the engine performs. Below, I have
linked an image from my vehicle scanner which shows the ignition control table for my car.
The numbers in the green, yellow and orange cells tell the computer when to signal the ignition module to
fire off a spark to the spark plugs.

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan3.jpg

The computer reads information from several sensors around the car, and makes adjustments based on
engine load, what you want the car to do, and the current operation conditions. For example, if you
want to go faster, you press the accelerator pedal and the computer will respond accordingly.

Using a sensor connected to the accelerator pedal linkage and throttle valve, the computer understands
how far down you have pressed the pedal. This is called Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). The picture
below indicates that my throttle position is 0% (or closed). We can verify this by looking at other sensor
information such as engine RPM (1102 RPM, or idling), Mass Air Flow (1.24 lb./minute), Manifold Pressure
at 43 kPa, etc. Everything checks out!

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan5.jpg

This analysis software also allows me to view the parameters in graphic form so I can relate the sensor
information in real time:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan.jpg
http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan2.jpg

If your engine experiences any troubles (major, or minor), the computer will record and store the information
in memory, and also issue a fault code. If the problem is severe enough, the computer will also set a
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) which will appear on your instrument cluster as "service engine soon", or
a picture off a wrench, or engine depending on your car.

This tells the driver that something isn't proper. It helps the mechanic to trouble-shoot the error.
In the table below, you will see a list of codes on the right (PXXXX), followed by a description of
which sensor corresponds to the code.

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan4.jpg

Much like a flight data recorder, these codes are stored in protected memory and can't be erased
even if the car battery is disconnected. If a sensor fails, or is disconnected, the computer will
continue to record sensor information and store error codes.

What's the point of this? Well, those who claim the FDR is "fine" don't seem to understand that certain
parameters don't coincide, or make sense with all of the other information.

If a sensor were to fail on the airplane, the FDR will continue to record data. It will NOT wipe out seconds
of information! The FDR also sets a trouble code exactly like your car's computer so that airplane
maintenance technicians can see a history of the trouble and repair the airplane.

It is absurd and false to claim that the FDR , or CSV file would omit an entire parameter. At best,
the sensor would show a malfunction and record a value of some sort, as well as set an error code!

Sever Impact will not erase certain data cells. This is a common arguement
with debunkers. It's impossible to lose data while the computer has power.
Something must be written to the data address!

Also noteworthy is that engine sensors respond extremely quickly! Within milliseconds, a manifold
pressure sensor can sense a change in pressure, send the info to the computer, and display it on
my scanner!

This BS about sensor lag, or data write time of 2+ seconds is bogus.

If your $1500.00 car computer can do all of this, you can rest assured a much more elaborate and expensive jet data acquisition system will outperform
this many times over.

Do not hotlink images.

Responding to this modbox in thread will be off topic Posted By:Lisa Simpson

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by Turbofan

I'll have to check my copy of the data file again. I don't see this trend,
and it certainly doesn't show up in the simulation video.

Here is something I'd like to present about the FDR data and how solid state
storage systems function.

It's a parallel between your car's computer, and how a flight data recoder
operates. This is a basic overview to help the average person understand
why the missing and erroneous data presented by the NTSB does not
make sense.

I wont tell you want my area of expertise, profession, or experience is
because I've seen/read what many have said about Gage, Jones, Balsamo, etc.

Apparently, education and experience doesn't get you far in this world...

So here's my write up about data storage on a very basic level. I will
answer any questions you might have about this information, and FDR
related data as best I can.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I'd like to bring your attention to a device that almost everyone has in their vehicle since inception of computer
controlled engines. I say almost everyone because some of you many still drive vehicles that do not use computer
control.

Your car, much like a commercial airliner has a controller and data recording device which reads important
sensor information, and adjusts parameters to maintain engine operation. The computer, often referred to
as Powertrain Control Module (PCM), or Vehicle Control Module (VCM) also stores operation parameters, and
fault data.

Believe it, or not, your modern day car uses a program which dictates how the engine performs. Below, I have
linked an image from my vehicle scanner which shows the ignition control table for my car.
The numbers in the green, yellow and orange cells tell the computer when to signal the ignition module to
fire off a spark to the spark plugs.

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan3.jpg

The computer reads information from several sensors around the car, and makes adjustments based on
engine load, what you want the car to do, and the current operation conditions. For example, if you
want to go faster, you press the accelerator pedal and the computer will respond accordingly.

Using a sensor connected to the accelerator pedal linkage and throttle valve, the computer understands
how far down you have pressed the pedal. This is called Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). The picture
below indicates that my throttle position is 0% (or closed). We can verify this by looking at other sensor
information such as engine RPM (1102 RPM, or idling), Mass Air Flow (1.24 lb./minute), Manifold Pressure
at 43 kPa, etc. Everything checks out!

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan5.jpg

This analysis software also allows me to view the parameters in graphic form so I can relate the sensor
information in real time:

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan.jpg
http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan2.jpg

If your engine experiences any troubles (major, or minor), the computer will record and store the information
in memory, and also issue a fault code. If the problem is severe enough, the computer will also set a
Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) which will appear on your instrument cluster as "service engine soon", or
a picture off a wrench, or engine depending on your car.

This tells the driver that something isn't proper. It helps the mechanic to trouble-shoot the error.
In the table below, you will see a list of codes on the right (PXXXX), followed by a description of
which sensor corresponds to the code.

http://procision-auto.com/Tino/911_pcm_scan4.jpg

Much like a flight data recorder, these codes are stored in protected memory and can't be erased
even if the car battery is disconnected. If a sensor fails, or is disconnected, the computer will
continue to record sensor information and store error codes.

What's the point of this? Well, those who claim the FDR is "fine" don't seem to understand that certain
parameters don't coincide, or make sense with all of the other information.

If a sensor were to fail on the airplane, the FDR will continue to record data. It will NOT wipe out seconds
of information! The FDR also sets a trouble code exactly like your car's computer so that airplane
maintenance technicians can see a history of the trouble and repair the airplane.

It is absurd and false to claim that the FDR , or CSV file would omit an entire parameter. At best,
the sensor would show a malfunction and record a value of some sort, as well as set an error code!

Sever Impact will not erase certain data cells. This is a common arguement
with debunkers. It's impossible to lose data while the computer has power.
Something must be written to the data address!

Also noteworthy is that engine sensors respond extremely quickly! Within milliseconds, a manifold
pressure sensor can sense a change in pressure, send the info to the computer, and display it on
my scanner!

This BS about sensor lag, or data write time of 2+ seconds is bogus.

If your $1500.00 car computer can do all of this, you can rest assured a much more elaborate and expensive jet data acquisition system will outperform
this many times over.

You want to say this again and...