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Old 15th August 2017, 07:53 AM   #121
luchog
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You naysayers really should consider a paradigm shift.

The problem is, for all the hyperbole, he's not entirely wrong.

The 1% won't change, because they don't have to. It is, in fact, all about greed. The entire GOP is based on greed, they consider it a virtue, not a vice.

One has to remember when marketing anything aimed at the Religious Right, one is already at a HUGE disadvantage. Entire generations have been raised to automatically and unthinkingly dismiss anything that comes out of the "liberal" side of the debate as not just a lie, but a conspiracy to destroy Christian values and culture. There is a complex web of conspiracy thinking, magical thinking, and long-established dogma that is extremely difficult to penetrate. It can be done, but successfully doing so is rare. It's much more likely that someone will discover all the internal inconsistency and contradiction on their own than an outside force will directly convince them to abandon what they have had drummed into their ears every day of their entire lives.

And on top of that, there is a thick layer of bigotry, of racism, of xenophobia that is also stringently taught to them from the time they're children. It's easy to deny this bigotry because it's seldom the open, virulent, vicious bigotry of the neo-nazis or the KKK; it's a much more subtle, insidious bigotry, a bigotry that is all politeness and smiles to your face, an elitist bigotry that won't outright attack you, but will dismiss you and offer to "pray for you" to become a proper, moral person in their eyes. A bigotry which will claim to "hate the sin, but love the sinner", and then vote for legislation to oppress and outlaw everything about you they disagree with. A bigotry that can, at times, look disturbingly like a parent chastising a wayward child, because that is how they view the problem.

And with regard to money, few, if any, of them pay much attention to scripture when it tells them that the love of money is the root of all evil; they're clearly free of that evil, because they've been infected with the Prosperity theology, which teaches that money is the mark of piety. As long as they have sufficient faith, then their God will make them rich, like the TV preachers, like the GOP politicians who pander to them, like Donald Trump. They have managed to resolve the cognitive dissonance between scripture and greed in a powerful and almost impossible to refute way.

Further, trying to explain all of the issues that the left is trying to combat in scientific, social justice, or cooperative terms will fall on deaf ears. These are people who believe, as their leaders tell them, that the problem with America is not climate change, it's not the growing divide between the haves and have-nots, it's not magical thinking vs. science, the problem is fundamentally and entirely one of morality. The problems that America is experiencing are, to their mind, because America is insufficiently godly, insufficiently Christian, and insufficiently the right type of Christian. These people truly and fully believe that if America were to outlaw everything that opposes or violates fundamentalist Christian morality, repress all non-Christian religion, and move en masse to embrace their vision of God and a "godly" society, America would become a utopia.

The white Evangelical Christian community voted 81% for Trump in a record turnout,

Look at the previous election. The white Evangelical Christian community voted 81% for Trump in a record turnout. Other fundamentalist Protestant and Catholic sects went to Trump at lower, but still overwhelmingly majority, numbers.

Because even if you can convince them on the environment, on science, on social justice, on immigration, even if you get them 90% on your side, they will still vote Republican, because that remaining 10% forms an almost insurmountable barrier. That barrier consists of two issues that overshadow all others in their minds: Abortion and Homosexuality. Those two pillars of morality are two that they will never get past. And worse, there is a deep and abiding sense of guilt by association connected to them that will taint any and every other issue. Democrats support combating climate change because of the principle of biblical stewardship? Nope, they must be wrong about that, because they are hopelessly wrong about Abortion and Homosexuality, therefore anything else they have to say is wrong by association.

They believe, and their leaders teach them, that nearly all of America's problems can be linked back to these two issues. Not just the social problems of crime and poverty, but even natural disasters, which are evidence of God's punishment of this country for supporting Abortion and Homosexuality.

So long a those two planks remain firmly a part of any Democrat, progressive, or liberal party platform, all the marketing in the world is not going to do you the slightest bit of good.

It's not the left that needs the paradigm shift, it's the Religious Right, and there's little chance that is going to happen to a significant enough degree to affect elections.
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Old 16th August 2017, 09:37 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Oh for crying out loud. You bought the Obama lied lie.
Oh FFS. Any time someone disagrees with something that you believe (and it is absolutely your belief at issue here), you go straight on into claiming that they've 'fallen for the scam'. Do you honestly believe that you're the smartest person ever, and that anyone who doesn't see things your way can only hold a different view because they weren't as clever as you were, so they couldn't see through the lies? Seriously?
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Old 16th August 2017, 09:38 AM   #123
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Do you guys realize that if you constantly talk about the 'other side' as being bigoted stupid ignorant hillbillies that you obviously consider unworthy and beneath you, you're pretty much guaranteed to NEVER get their vote?
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Old 16th August 2017, 11:14 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
True, at least partially. I think a certain amount of knowledge imparting would go a long way, though.

There is a certain amount of "marketing" that goes into persuading people about scientific truth, as well as voting. The scientific community does a notoriously poor job of doing that.

Anyway, perhaps I'll think about this and come back with something more insightful. I think you are on to something here, but I also think that part of convincing people to vote for a candidate who is spouting a scientific message is "selling" the science itself. i.e. correcting the knowledge deficit.
It's hard to shift away from that paradigm. It only makes sense, 'if they only knew'. But look at that same argument from the other side, 'if you only knew about [fill in the bad science blank]'. You can argue ad nauseum, but we know how strong confirmation bias is. But that doesn't mean one cannot get past said bias. Instead, one can develop techniques to use that same bias.

What marketing science has discovered, not all problems are knowledge deficits. You have to stop and reassess what is the barrier. Then you have to design ways to get around those barriers.


Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Yeah, I did. I did because I listened to what was being said when the law was being "marketed", and I knew it wasn't true then. I figured if I knew it, he probably did, too.

Obama was an excellent marketer, of himself, and of his plans.
He made a few rookie mistakes, especially with the ACA. Look at the Trump WH. They are marketing against the ACA, using tax payer dollars. How much selling of the ACA did the Obama WH do after the fact? Not enough, IMO.

There are commercials playing now that the tax system is unfair, yadda yadda. Clearly they are already selling tax cuts for the rich. The NRA has ads out selling protection insurance for people who might be charged with murder for an act of self defense. I don't know if they are selling gun rights or actually marketing an insurance scheme. Maybe it's both.

Where are the ACA commercials coming from the left? Where are the Democratic legislators' news conferences? Al Franken's getting some effective airtime. The rest of the bunch come across like fools with their attempt to create a message of what the Democrats are for rather than what they are against.

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Old 16th August 2017, 11:56 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you guys realize that if you constantly talk about the 'other side' as being bigoted stupid ignorant hillbillies that you obviously consider unworthy and beneath you, you're pretty much guaranteed to NEVER get their vote?

You think that outright racists are ever going to vote for the Democrat party as long as they push for diversity? No, they're not. And as we've witnessed this week with the Unite the Right rallies and accompanying anti-minority, anti-left violence, racism is alive and well in this country, a far bigger problem than many one either side have wanted to admit, and the racists have been emboldened by a president who is all but openly supporting neo-nazis, the KKK, and other far-right fascists, just as he has since his campaign.

Do you think religious fundamentalists are going to vote Democrat as long as the party supports Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights? Absolutely not. And religious fundamentalists form a huge voting block. These are fundamentally non-negotiable issues for them, and even if they agree 99% on everything else, they will continue to vote for the GOP as long as the GOP opposes Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights.

To say otherwise is either profoundly ignorant of these people, their culture, and what is going on in the world right now, or thinly-veiled apologetics for the racists and religious fundamentalists.

Oh, and once again, you're dishonestly putting words in other people's mouths, "stupid ignorant hillbillies" is your characterization, and yours alone. In fact, the bulk of the support for Trump and the white-supremacist far-right is educated middle- and upper-middle-class. The narrative that the working class voted strongly for Trump is just another of his lies. In fact, the bulk of them voted Democrat.

The bulk of the white supremacists marching in the Unite The Right rallies are similarly middle- and upper-middle class.
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Old 16th August 2017, 01:42 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You think that outright racists are ever going to vote for the Democrat party as long as they push for diversity? No, they're not. And as we've witnessed this week with the Unite the Right rallies and accompanying anti-minority, anti-left violence, racism is alive and well in this country, a far bigger problem than many one either side have wanted to admit, and the racists have been emboldened by a president who is all but openly supporting neo-nazis, the KKK, and other far-right fascists, just as he has since his campaign.

Do you think religious fundamentalists are going to vote Democrat as long as the party supports Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights? Absolutely not. And religious fundamentalists form a huge voting block. These are fundamentally non-negotiable issues for them, and even if they agree 99% on everything else, they will continue to vote for the GOP as long as the GOP opposes Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights.

To say otherwise is either profoundly ignorant of these people, their culture, and what is going on in the world right now, or thinly-veiled apologetics for the racists and religious fundamentalists.
Way to miss the point once again.

Here, let me be even more clear for you.

YOU make a habit of generally bashing and condemning non-leftists as being horrible people. YOU personally. On this site. Repeatedly. YOU classify and refer to republicans and conservatives IN GENERAL as if they are bad evil people. You don't make distinctions. You don't bother to note that the racists in Charlotte numbered in the hundreds (at best); you end up spreading that characterization to the entirety of conservatives. You refer to it as a big problem - you keep repeatedly implying that it's a huge number of people who are bigots.

YOU repeatedly characterize not just the GOP, but all supporters of the GOP in an unequivocally negative light.

So let me ask again: If YOU are demeaning and condescending toward people, how on earth do you expect to sway them to your point of view?

Now let's take a look at your response above. You effectively say "Well, those people are never going to vote democrat anyway, so it doesn't matter if we're mean to them and call them names and constantly deride them. They'll never be on our side anyway."

Do you believe that instigating and fostering an environment of conflict and tribalism is going to win you the civil rights that you ought to have? Somehow I don't think that's going to work the way you want it to.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Oh, and once again, you're dishonestly putting words in other people's mouths, "stupid ignorant hillbillies" is your characterization, and yours alone. In fact, the bulk of the support for Trump and the white-supremacist far-right is educated middle- and upper-middle-class. The narrative that the working class voted strongly for Trump is just another of his lies. In fact, the bulk of them voted Democrat.

The bulk of the white supremacists marching in the Unite The Right rallies are similarly middle- and upper-middle class.
Here, let me direct you right on back to the list of posts made in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=106

Now let's talk about disengenuity for a moment. Out of everything I've posted, your sticking point is NOT that several posters in this thread have clearly implied that "those people" are bigots (you yourself have referred to them as racists, anti-trans, anti-gay, etc.), or as ignorant and/or stupid (despite insisting that they've fallen for the con or got taken in by the false narrative of lies)? Your issue, which you characterize as dishonestly putting words into other people's mouths... is what? Based on your disagreement with me summarizing the actual comments of actual posters in this thread with words that you don't like so much?

Because seriously - have you and several others NOT been characterizing extremely large swaths of conservatives in general as bigots? Have many in this thread NOT insinuated that they so dumb that they fell for the con (but that you guys are the ones clever enough and smart enough to not fall for their lies)?

"Hillbillies". Okay, sure I might give you that one. I've merely assumed that when you refer to the fundamentalists etc. that there's a geographically concentrated colloquialism that captures that sentiment.
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Old 16th August 2017, 01:53 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The problem is, for all the hyperbole, he's not entirely wrong.

The 1% won't change, because they don't have to. It is, in fact, all about greed. The entire GOP is based on greed, they consider it a virtue, not a vice.
So you target your messages to that group with that in mind: China is moving ahead building and marketing alternative energy. We need to catch up.

Keep in mind these are just examples.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
One has to remember when marketing anything aimed at the Religious Right, one is already at a HUGE disadvantage. Entire generations have been raised to automatically and unthinkingly dismiss anything that comes out of the "liberal" side of the debate as not just a lie, but a conspiracy to destroy Christian values and culture. There is a complex web of conspiracy thinking, magical thinking, and long-established dogma that is extremely difficult to penetrate. It can be done, but successfully doing so is rare. It's much more likely that someone will discover all the internal inconsistency and contradiction on their own than an outside force will directly convince them to abandon what they have had drummed into their ears every day of their entire lives.
Which is why you use Christian themes and you team up with other Christians to market messages to the Evangelical crowd. Quote Bible verses back at them.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And on top of that, there is a thick layer of bigotry, of racism, of xenophobia that is also stringently taught to them from the time they're children. It's easy to deny this bigotry because it's seldom the open, virulent, vicious bigotry of the neo-nazis or the KKK; it's a much more subtle, insidious bigotry, a bigotry that is all politeness and smiles to your face, an elitist bigotry that won't outright attack you, but will dismiss you and offer to "pray for you" to become a proper, moral person in their eyes. A bigotry which will claim to "hate the sin, but love the sinner", and then vote for legislation to oppress and outlaw everything about you they disagree with. A bigotry that can, at times, look disturbingly like a parent chastising a wayward child, because that is how they view the problem.
There will always be the fringe you cannot reach. They need to be marginalized among other things.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And with regard to money, few, if any, of them pay much attention to scripture when it tells them that the love of money is the root of all evil; they're clearly free of that evil, because they've been infected with the Prosperity theology, which teaches that money is the mark of piety. As long as they have sufficient faith, then their God will make them rich, like the TV preachers, like the GOP politicians who pander to them, like Donald Trump. They have managed to resolve the cognitive dissonance between scripture and greed in a powerful and almost impossible to refute way.
Again, the barrier here is not a knowledge deficit, the barrier is greed.

Messages: We don't message nearly enough negativity about corporate subsidies. Increasing minimum wages increases demand. We have a demand shortage, not a supply shortage. There are many messaging opportunities when it comes to the economy that the left is simply not taking advantage of.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Further, trying to explain all of the issues that the left is trying to combat in scientific, social justice, or cooperative terms will fall on deaf ears.
Yes, which is why we need to reassess the messages.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
These are people who believe, as their leaders tell them, that the problem with America is not climate change, it's not the growing divide between the haves and have-nots, it's not magical thinking vs. science, the problem is fundamentally and entirely one of morality. The problems that America is experiencing are, to their mind, because America is insufficiently godly, insufficiently Christian, and insufficiently the right type of Christian. These people truly and fully believe that if America were to outlaw everything that opposes or violates fundamentalist Christian morality, repress all non-Christian religion, and move en masse to embrace their vision of God and a "godly" society, America would become a utopia.

The white Evangelical Christian community voted 81% for Trump in a record turnout,

Look at the previous election. The white Evangelical Christian community voted 81% for Trump in a record turnout. Other fundamentalist Protestant and Catholic sects went to Trump at lower, but still overwhelmingly majority, numbers.

Because even if you can convince them on the environment, on science, on social justice, on immigration, even if you get them 90% on your side, they will still vote Republican, because that remaining 10% forms an almost insurmountable barrier. That barrier consists of two issues that overshadow all others in their minds: Abortion and Homosexuality. Those two pillars of morality are two that they will never get past. And worse, there is a deep and abiding sense of guilt by association connected to them that will taint any and every other issue. Democrats support combating climate change because of the principle of biblical stewardship? Nope, they must be wrong about that, because they are hopelessly wrong about Abortion and Homosexuality, therefore anything else they have to say is wrong by association.

They believe, and their leaders teach them, that nearly all of America's problems can be linked back to these two issues. Not just the social problems of crime and poverty, but even natural disasters, which are evidence of God's punishment of this country for supporting Abortion and Homosexuality.

So long a those two planks remain firmly a part of any Democrat, progressive, or liberal party platform, all the marketing in the world is not going to do you the slightest bit of good.

It's not the left that needs the paradigm shift, it's the Religious Right, and there's little chance that is going to happen to a significant enough degree to affect elections.
Again, we are way behind. The alt-right has been effectively marketing their messages for decades. That's why there are so many people who buy what they are selling. Doesn't mean the task of meeting these people on their level can't be done.

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Old 16th August 2017, 01:57 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You think that outright racists are ever going to vote for the Democrat party as long as they push for diversity? No, they're not. And as we've witnessed this week with the Unite the Right rallies and accompanying anti-minority, anti-left violence, racism is alive and well in this country, a far bigger problem than many one either side have wanted to admit, and the racists have been emboldened by a president who is all but openly supporting neo-nazis, the KKK, and other far-right fascists, just as he has since his campaign.

Do you think religious fundamentalists are going to vote Democrat as long as the party supports Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights? Absolutely not. And religious fundamentalists form a huge voting block. These are fundamentally non-negotiable issues for them, and even if they agree 99% on everything else, they will continue to vote for the GOP as long as the GOP opposes Abortion and Gay/Trans Rights.

To say otherwise is either profoundly ignorant of these people, their culture, and what is going on in the world right now, or thinly-veiled apologetics for the racists and religious fundamentalists.

Oh, and once again, you're dishonestly putting words in other people's mouths, "stupid ignorant hillbillies" is your characterization, and yours alone. In fact, the bulk of the support for Trump and the white-supremacist far-right is educated middle- and upper-middle-class. The narrative that the working class voted strongly for Trump is just another of his lies. In fact, the bulk of them voted Democrat.

The bulk of the white supremacists marching in the Unite The Right rallies are similarly middle- and upper-middle class.
Another way to look at this is to target moderate Republicans who are more and more disgusted with Trump's racism and affinity for Nazis and white supremacists. Time to pounce on the alienated middle right.
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Old 16th August 2017, 03:08 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Another way to look at this is to target moderate Republicans who are more and more disgusted with Trump's racism and affinity for Nazis and white supremacists. Time to pounce on the alienated middle right.
Yes, the answer is for moderates on both sides to combine forces. Together we can beat the partisan extremists, but only if we are willing to compromise. It's what Obama tried to do, and what we must do if we want to move forward.

Ironically, Trump may make this possible. More and more moderate republicans are finally beginning to realize that this is not where they want their party to go. 42% of the electorate didn't even vote in the last election. Some of that may be due to voter suppression, but most probably either didn't think their votes mattered or were simply too lazy. Hopefully at least some of them now realize that their votes do matter...

As I said before, to wake people up you have to rub their noses in it. Trump is showing us how bad things can get if we sit back and let partisan extremists take control. That's why we need Trump to keep going - until everyone can see where continuing down that path will lead us.

Hillary tried to warn them, but of course they didn't listen. Just like they didn't listen when we told them the Iraq war was a mistake, or that deregulation would crash the economy, or that Global Warming is threatening the entire world. So I hope that Trump does even worse things before being removed from power (preferably by being voted out at the next election). Only then will moderates realize that they have to put aside their differences...
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Old 16th August 2017, 05:14 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So you target your messages to that group with that in mind: China is moving ahead building and marketing alternative energy. We need to catch up.

Keep in mind these are just examples.

Which is why you use Christian themes and you team up with other Christians to market messages to the Evangelical crowd. Quote Bible verses back at them.

There will always be the fringe you cannot reach. They need to be marginalized among other things.

Again, the barrier here is not a knowledge deficit, the barrier is greed.

Messages: We don't message nearly enough negativity about corporate subsidies. Increasing minimum wages increases demand. We have a demand shortage, not a supply shortage. There are many messaging opportunities when it comes to the economy that the left is simply not taking advantage of.

Yes, which is why we need to reassess the messages.

Again, we are way behind. The alt-right has been effectively marketing their messages for decades. That's why there are so many people who buy what they are selling. Doesn't mean the task of meeting these people on their level can't be done.
I agree with you completely in terms of overall messaging strategy. The left really needs to overhaul their marketing approach. Most people aren't rational, and in order to build resonance, we have to actually create a relationship that fosters a feeling of inclusion. Many people on the left see that as "pandering"... but a lack of building bridges with the potential voter is part of why we're in this mess right now. There's too often a willingness to exclude and 'other' those who the left thinks don't represent left views. But the truth is that if we don't win them over, there's no possible way to win. And regardless of what your principles might dictate - if we don't win, we cannot play.
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Old 17th August 2017, 07:07 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Another way to look at this is to target moderate Republicans who are more and more disgusted with Trump's racism and affinity for Nazis and white supremacists. Time to pounce on the alienated middle right.

Are you going to recommend that the Dems drop their support for abortion and gay rights? Because until you do, you're going to be talking to a brick wall.

I notice that is something that people in this thread with their marketing speak seem to avoid addressing; and that is another reason that none of this is going to work. Those are the two big sticking points, the two fundamental discontinuities between the left and right.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which is why you use Christian themes and you team up with other Christians to market messages to the Evangelical crowd. Quote Bible verses back at them.

That's funny. You all really don't understand the people you're targeting. Let me break down for you how this is going to work:

"Even the Devil can quote scripture for his own ends." And as far as the evangelical/fundamentalist Christian community has been taught for many decades now, liberals are the devil. The only thing that these people hate as badly as godless liberals is liberal-leaning churches who "misuse" and "misinterpret" scripture in an ungodly way.

"God will not allow us to destroy the world." They are taught that climate change is, in fact, impossible, because God will not allow anything bad to happen to us unless we deserve it.

"It's God's punishment on America/the world." If something bad does happen, it's because of abortion and gay rights and atheism and so on. God punishing us for not being moral enough. Even natural disasters fall into this category.

"It's a sign of the end times." It's one of the signs, plagues, tribulations described in the book of Revelation, heralding the end of the world and the Second Coming. Therefore, we can't do anything about it, because it's God doing it.

You're also completely ignoring the fact that the vast majority of these people don't really care all that much what is in scripture unless it supports their own prejudices and fears. The entirety of evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity, especially when it comes to the Prosperity Gospel version that is so influential in US culture and government right now, is based on ignoring vast tracts of scripture, cherry picking bits and pieces out of context, and dismissing anything they don't like as "for another time and place" or "that's not what it really means". The overwhelming majority of Christians don't even read scripture themselves. All they know about it is what comes from trusted authorities.

I've been trying for decades to combat Young Earth Creationism with scripture. YEC is actually unbiblical if you actually pay attention to scripture, and understand its modes and contexts. But it has been nearly impossible to convince anyone of that, because it doesn't fit their prejudices. And YEC isn't even a foundational doctrine, it doesn't actually matter in any way to the faith, but it's held onto with an iron grip because it demonstrates how Christians are superior to everyone else, it gives them a basis with which to deny and denigrate science and anything about it that appears to contradict their prejudices. Science demonstrates that people are born gay, it's not a choice? Science is wrong, science says we are all evolved from monkeys, and that's wrong according to scripture, so everything else it says that is against scripture is wrong, and homosexuality is against scripture, so it's obvious a sinful choice, not something they're born with.

That is what you're going to encounter every single step of the way. Throwing a few scriptures at them isn't going to change their minds, you have to completely break down their entire worldview, attack the underlying foundation of it, and get them to change their entire mode of thought.

Good luck with that.

Have you noticed what the response is from the Christian Right with regards to these white supremacists? With regard to Trump's comments on the white supremacists? The response has been one of overwhelming silence for the most part. A few are speaking up, a few are renouncing white supremacism; but even there, they do so as Trump did, with the false equivalency fallacy "The left is just as responsible for the violence as the right." Even when a neo-nazi plows a car into a group of peaceful protesters, the result is mealy mouthed renunciations followed by more attacks on the "alt left", on Black Lives Matter who they refer to as a Black Supremacist group.

Here is a characteristic example: https://townhall.com/columnists/mich...trump-n2368171

Condemning white supremacism out of one side of his mouth, then denying it's a real problem and parroting white supremacist talking points out of the other side of his mouth.
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Old 17th August 2017, 07:33 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you going to recommend that the Dems drop their support for abortion and gay rights? Because until you do, you're going to be talking to a brick wall.

I notice that is something that people in this thread with their marketing speak seem to avoid addressing; and that is another reason that none of this is going to work. Those are the two big sticking points, the two fundamental discontinuities between the left and right.
Loads of Republicans support gay marriage. Some polls put it at about 50%. And something like a third of Republicans are at least sort of pro-choice. Lots of people to work with.
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Old 17th August 2017, 08:30 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Loads of Republicans support gay marriage. Some polls put it at about 50%. And something like a third of Republicans are at least sort of pro-choice. Lots of people to work with.

Which are not the people I was talking about. The core of the Religious Right, who effectively control the GOP right now, are very much anti both things.

And those numbers are very, very generous. I'd say possibly even wishful thinking.
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Old 17th August 2017, 08:58 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And those numbers are very, very generous. I'd say possibly even wishful thinking.
Here are a couple of polls on gay marriage support showing 40 and 47 percent support among Republicans:
http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/c...-gay-marriage/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/210566/su...-new-high.aspx
That's a fair spread, but even the lower poll number is still pretty strong for Republicans. Both polls indicate a rapid rise.
Here's a pair of polls showing about a third of Republicans being pro-choice:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...two-parties-2/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/211901/ab...-legality.aspx

I'm no pollster or statistician, so I can't personally vouch for the validity of these polls. If you're seeing other numbers indicating lower support then share them so we can compare sources.
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Old 17th August 2017, 09:52 AM   #135
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I was thinking of this.

There are a couple of different sorts of marketing. Marketing can be all about telling "consumers" i.e. voters, what you are all about, or it could be about hiding what you are all about.

I'll illustrate using a political example. Vermin Supreme is a perennial candidate who has a main plank of giving all voters a pony. He doesn't do so well, so he needs better marketing. When it comes to the pony plank of his platform, he could be truthful, and try to make sure people understand that he wants to give them ponies, or if he decides that isn't popular, he could try to hide his stand on free ponies. If he decides to go the full pony route, there's still a problem. Some people don't think it's a good idea, so he has to persuade them. His marketing could tell the truth, that pony distribution is expensive and will require a tax increase, but will be worth it because we'll all have ponies, or he could lie, and say that the increase in productivity as a result of having ponies will pay for itself at no cost. Finally, a candidate can tell people not to worry about specific issues, like ponies. Instead, he can convince people that he is such a smart, competent, caring individual that he will do good stuff. Once again, that can be based on truths, or on lies.

For the Democrats, what sort of marketing is needed? Travis' OP seemed to think that what was needed was truthful, issue oriented marketing. We need to convince people that our answers are good answers. Others have questioned that approach.

In short, does the Democratic Party need to convince people that their goals are lined up with people's goals, and their programs will achieve those goals, and their candidates are the right people to push those goals? Alternatively, are they out of touch with people's goals, or incompetent about how to achieve them, and the only way they can win would be to pull the wool over voters' eyes using a good marketing campaign?
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:17 AM   #136
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Since our country has a free press and Republicans have vigorous and well-funded media of their own, I think serious dishonesty would likely backfire. I also think it's largely unnecessary. Reading thought the official platform of the Democratic party, I think it's sufficiently in line with American attitudes that it can be sold to American voters without a lot of lying.
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Old 17th August 2017, 10:52 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I'm no pollster or statistician, so I can't personally vouch for the validity of these polls. If you're seeing other numbers indicating lower support then share them so we can compare sources.

Given that the sources are generally reliable, I think we can accept those as representative of reality, within the normal error margins.

However, it does demonstrate two things:

1) They're still the minority, the Religious Right still controls the GOP, and abortion and homosexuality are still keystone issues for them and their core support base, which is still polling at over 70% anti gay rights.

2) There's another reason the pro-gay, pro-choice conservatives are sticking with the GOP. Possibly a lot of reasons. Elitism, classism, racism, and/or xenophobia likely play a key role in that among those voters. We've seen the intense social backlash against muslim immigrants, the pegging of BLM and similar protest groups as violent anti-white racists, and similar attitudes. And there is growing awareness of racism and xenophobia within the LGBT community, so it stands to reason it would be there for the conservative supporters as well.

There's also the small vs. big government argument, which is very likely the primary sticking point for those pro-gay, pro-choice conservatives. The anarcho-capitalist libertarian wing of the party is quite large and powerful and influential right now (and likely largely overlaps with the pro-choice and pro-gay faction), and the GOP panders heavily to the "small government" anti-regulation worldview; it's one of their most common talking points. The Democrats are and always have been the "big government" party, and I don't see that changing, since social programs and environmental regulation are fundamental aspects of the Democrat Party platform. It's a conflict of worldview, those who support the legitimacy of government programs, and those who oppose them. And worldviews are extremely difficult to change.

One thing I'd really like to see, which the breakdowns of the polls do not provide, si the economic breakdown of those numbers. We know that the bulk of the GOP support is in the upper economic levels; and they will stick with the GOP out of greed and fear of losing their economic status. The only way the Dems are going to reach them is by either becoming more pro-business like the GOP, or by changing these peoples' worldviews. As noted, the GOP right now is hard into the small-government right-libertarian quadrant, and those types are not going to be convinced to switch sides without a fundamental change in worldview.

For example, one of the most common complaints about and attacks on the $15 minimum wage is the elitist libertarian attitude that the lower classes don't deserve to be paid more, that they're too unskilled and uneducated to be paid the same as more skilled and educated workers. The "rising tide lifting all boats" argument has been soundly and firmly rejected by these people, despite the fact that it does not affect those making the argument negatively in any way. Their objection is one of fundamental principle, not real-world practicality. A very large percentage of them still oppose it on the grounds it will kill businesses, despite the empirical evidence that it doesn't, which further highlights the fact that this is a matter of ideology not pragmatism.

For the Dems to win GOP voters would require a massive shift in worldview for either the Dems or those voters, which again is something that is extremely difficult to manage. They would be better served not by trying to emulate and woo the GOP voters, but by pushing further to the left, by trying to bring back the progressives and independents who have been alienated by the party's increasingly conservative, pro-business economic stance, and defected to fringe parties like the Greens, or simply stopped voting. There was a massive anti-Hillary movement amongst the progressives that hurt the popular vote in a lot of key states, and resulted in the defection of a few electors in caucus states like mine.

The more the Dems push to the right and try and appeal to the moderate right voters in the GOP, the more they're going to hemorrhage voters from the progressive and independent left. It's the wrong move, and it's going to keep them ineffective in the long run. The Dems have, for far too long, been far too wishy-washy, trying to be "all things to all men", fielding ineffectual candidates and weak party platforms. They need to establish a more aggressively liberal-progressive platform, and push hard to regain their image as the Friend of the Working Man. They need to be less pro-business Clinton, and more New Deal Roosevelt. That is what is going to get their relevancy back, not becoming the GOP-lite.

I think another huge part of the problem here that a lot of people are missing is that the Dems did win the popular vote, so they are in the majority nationwide. Much of the GOP's victory comes from gerrymandering, including illegal gerrymandering, and once in power, they've made a concerted and very effective effort to stay in power. That is going to be an extremely hard wall to break through, since it requires having someone in power who is willing and capable to make that change and make it stick.
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Old 17th August 2017, 11:57 AM   #138
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Here's a great example of a problem with the left (from another thread).

Quote:
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yeah, a couple in this thread have apparently eagerly signed on.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
This. 100% this.
Every right winger who showed up did so with a very specific intent to endorse Naziism, to endors White Supremacism, to endorse the KKK.

Sceptik Tank, Emily's Cat, TBD, Sunmaster. When you get an invitation by White Supremacists, and they ask you to unite with Nazis and KKK - do you heed the invitation, thinking this is what a good person will do?

This is a Yes/No question. Please don't wiggle.
Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Of course you are. You're a "free speech" advocate. Maybe a neo free speech advocate.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What total B.S.
I get the feeling you secretly support the Nazis/Klan because you see them as "fihgitng the Communist" Shades of the Weimar Republic.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
He is apparently joining in their parades so he is worried about being mistaken for a nazi. That seems a common reaction after these protests.
Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Unsurprisingly, Sunmaster and The Big Dog were unable to give the easy short answer "No".
I thinkj we must take their silence as a tacit "Yes, marching with Nazis and KKK is what fine people do" - just as the President believes.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow.He is not even hiding his support of the Neo Nazis now.

And the Neo Nazis are such non violent people.

A Trump supporter sides with the Nazis. What a surprise.
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Do you think the Nazis and the counter protesters are equally bad?

ETA: So far, we have at least two outed Nazi-sympathizers posting in this thread.

Sick. Straight out of 1984. Unabashed finger-pointing, Nazi Nazi!!!

You people sound so gawdamn silly it's disturbing. Calling names and filthy accusations to posters who have been here debating with you for years. Nazi Nazi! What is this fifth grade?

You want to know what the problem is with the left's message, Travis (referring to his thread)? Here ya go. Hateful, emotionally driven name calling. This is some scary stuff people. You're acting like children.

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Old 17th August 2017, 12:24 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
I think serious dishonesty would likely backfire.
Serious dishonesty is so common in elections that it might be considered the norm, although there are disagreements about which American party practices it more often.

Quote:
I also think it's largely unnecessary. Reading thought the official platform of the Democratic party, I think it's sufficiently in line with American attitudes that it can be sold to American voters without a lot of lying.
I'm not sure. I haven't read this year's official platform, but I watched a lot of their convention. I found them to be completely out of touch. I don't know to what extent other Americans agree. I think both parties are seriously out of touch with me, but I don't know about other people.
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:46 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Are you going to recommend that the Dems drop their support for abortion and gay rights? Because until you do, you're going to be talking to a brick wall.
Hey - here's a novel idea! How about you don't try to talk about every single topic to every audience? You know, maybe you talk about topics that are more likely to resonate with moderate right people and set aside topics that won't? I mean, that's just a mind-blowingly obvious idea, isn't it?
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:48 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Which are not the people I was talking about. The core of the Religious Right, who effectively control the GOP right now, are very much anti both things.

And those numbers are very, very generous. I'd say possibly even wishful thinking.
So your approach is what? If you can't reach and connect with the far right fringe, it's not worth the bother to even try to connect with the near-centrists? Fantastic logic there, sure to help you win the next election!
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:58 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was thinking of this.

There are a couple of different sorts of marketing. Marketing can be all about telling "consumers" i.e. voters, what you are all about, or it could be about hiding what you are all about.

I'll illustrate using a political example. Vermin Supreme is a perennial candidate who has a main plank of giving all voters a pony. He doesn't do so well, so he needs better marketing. When it comes to the pony plank of his platform, he could be truthful, and try to make sure people understand that he wants to give them ponies, or if he decides that isn't popular, he could try to hide his stand on free ponies. If he decides to go the full pony route, there's still a problem. Some people don't think it's a good idea, so he has to persuade them. His marketing could tell the truth, that pony distribution is expensive and will require a tax increase, but will be worth it because we'll all have ponies, or he could lie, and say that the increase in productivity as a result of having ponies will pay for itself at no cost. Finally, a candidate can tell people not to worry about specific issues, like ponies. Instead, he can convince people that he is such a smart, competent, caring individual that he will do good stuff. Once again, that can be based on truths, or on lies.

For the Democrats, what sort of marketing is needed? Travis' OP seemed to think that what was needed was truthful, issue oriented marketing. We need to convince people that our answers are good answers. Others have questioned that approach.

In short, does the Democratic Party need to convince people that their goals are lined up with people's goals, and their programs will achieve those goals, and their candidates are the right people to push those goals? Alternatively, are they out of touch with people's goals, or incompetent about how to achieve them, and the only way they can win would be to pull the wool over voters' eyes using a good marketing campaign?
Alternatively, Vermin Supreme could tell people who love ponies about his free-pony-plan... and he can focus on something completely different for the people who think ponies are dumb.

"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"
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Old 17th August 2017, 12:59 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Hey - here's a novel idea! How about you don't try to talk about every single topic to every audience? You know, maybe you talk about topics that are more likely to resonate with moderate right people and set aside topics that won't? I mean, that's just a mind-blowingly obvious idea, isn't it?
I think there's something to that. I recall Mick Huckabee participating in one of Tavis Smiley's events some years back. Almost all-black audience, overwhelmingly Democrats. He did great. Focused on issues of faith and family and just didn't bring up any of the stuff that might have gotten a bad reaction from the crowd. Can't think that he converted a lot of folks into Republicans that day, but he probably did take the edge off of some of the hostility that they might have felt toward him before he started speaking. Impossible to keep other folks in your party from poisoning the well, of course, but it's a start.
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:30 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Here's a great example of a problem with the left (from another thread).
The "Republicans are Nazis," stuff is pretty effective at keeping the morons on the Left rabid, just as "Democrats are communists" works among the simple-minded on the Right. It saddens me greatly to see how many here seem to buy it, hook, line and sinker. In a way, it's terrorism used by the Democrats and their complicit media pals against the party's own base.
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:34 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Alternatively, Vermin Supreme could tell people who love ponies about his free-pony-plan... and he can focus on something completely different for the people who think ponies are dumb.

"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others!"
In this day and age, that's dangerous. If you tell one group of people one thing, there might be a camera, with sound, recording it. Mitt Romney's 47% and Hillary Clinton's "deplorables" were both delivered to friendly audiences.

But certainly you should have a message for different sorts of audiences. Just don't expect the message to be contained to that specific audience.
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Old 17th August 2017, 01:53 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In this day and age, that's dangerous. If you tell one group of people one thing, there might be a camera, with sound, recording it. Mitt Romney's 47% and Hillary Clinton's "deplorables" were both delivered to friendly audiences.

But certainly you should have a message for different sorts of audiences. Just don't expect the message to be contained to that specific audience.
I think it's a calculable risk. Targeted marketing is actually becoming more common, in what seems to be a geometric growth rate, due to technology. The conflicting proposals are not necessarily going to be in a meatspace forum.

This is the value of fake news. You can display content to a microsegment that is confirmed statistically likely to sway their vote. If they share it to a nonbeliever, it's fake, so there's plausible deniability. Pope endorses Trump.
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Old 17th August 2017, 03:07 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The "Republicans are Nazis," stuff is pretty effective at keeping the morons on the Left rabid, just as "Democrats are communists" works among the simple-minded on the Right.
More false equivalence.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:30 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The "Republicans are Nazis," stuff is pretty effective at keeping the morons on the Left rabid, just as "Democrats are communists" works among the simple-minded on the Right. It saddens me greatly to see how many here seem to buy it, hook, line and sinker. In a way, it's terrorism used by the Democrats and their complicit media pals against the party's own base.

And both size have their own ways to handwave away any criticism that points out how they are susceptible to the same failures and blind spots as their ideological opponents. Both think they're always right. Any self reflection that doesn't reinforce the dogma means you're with the enemy.

I wouldn't say it saddens me. It just goes to show that even people who ostensibly value rationality can still fall victim to thinking their political rivals are evil incarnate and they are the good guys.
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Old 17th August 2017, 04:32 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
More false equivalence.

Keep believing that. I'm sure it will be a path to electoral victory.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:12 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
So much more direct and inspiring is "We're against them". In my opinion Clinton's big mistake was backing-off on the deplorables line.
As someone who agrees that the "deplorables" line was not the defining moment of the campaign, tell me: Who would "We're against them" have convinced that did not already vote for Hillary?

The lines in the sand were drawn long before that.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:14 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Interesting perspective here. His point is that liberals and progressives are generally oriented toward fair(er) outcomes, while conservatives focus on what they see as fair procedures.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.dd08289ce3d6
Sure, procedures don't assume a comparable starting point.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:18 PM   #152
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In the spirit of the entire thread, allow me to present part of the problem:

I'm a reliable center-left voter, and I have more liberals -- with whom I agree on most political issues -- on ignore in this thread than our conservative counterparts. I can't put my finger on it, but there's definitely a lesson there.
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Old 17th August 2017, 05:40 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Varanid View Post
I'm a reliable center-left voter, and I have more liberals -- with whom I agree on most political issues -- on ignore in this thread than our conservative counterparts. I can't put my finger on it, but there's definitely a lesson there.
The lesson is that you've been compromised by the evil cabal of alt right demons and their messaging. There is no alternate explanation. Any attempt to debunk this is evidence that their message has penetrated your skull and raped your brain.
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Old 18th August 2017, 12:58 PM   #154
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Keep believing that. I'm sure it will be a path to electoral victory.
'Electoral victory' should not take precedence over fairness and truth. The truth is, Nazi-like ideas are a significant part of the Republican platform, while Democrats (with the possible exception of Bernie Sanders) are far removed from Communism. In most countries the Democratic Party would be center right - but you wouldn't think it from how the Right describes 'liberals' and their policies.

I will call out false equivalence when I see it, and I honestly don't care if it riles up the morons on the Right. Trump is good because he is bringing it all out into the open. Now moderate Republicans are finally having to disavow themselves from the Nazi elements in their party. We can hope this will turn the tide, but if not we just get the government we deserve.
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Old 18th August 2017, 01:57 PM   #155
luchog
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
'Electoral victory' should not take precedence over fairness and truth. The truth is, Nazi-like ideas are a significant part of the Republican platform, while Democrats (with the possible exception of Bernie Sanders) are far removed from Communism. In most countries the Democratic Party would be center right - but you wouldn't think it from how the Right describes 'liberals' and their policies.

I will call out false equivalence when I see it, and I honestly don't care if it riles up the morons on the Right. Trump is good because he is bringing it all out into the open. Now moderate Republicans are finally having to disavow themselves from the Nazi elements in their party. We can hope this will turn the tide, but if not we just get the government we deserve.

This.

Rather than push farther to the right to capture the vote of those who, while they may not be racist, sexist bigots themselves, are perfectly happy to tolerate and turn a blind eye to racism, sexism, and bigotry in their party; rather than courting the religious fanatics that are the cause of the decay of the GOP; the Democrats need to push farther left. They need to recapture the Sanders Progressives, the reasonable wing of the Greens, the labour unions, the Social Democrats and Democratic Socialists and IWW, and all the left-leaning independents who have been alienated by the Dems' pandering to big business and war hawks.

The Democratic party needs to go back to being a true, New Deal, left-wing party, and stop trying to be GOP-lite.

With the GOP potentially imploding from these latest fiascos, now is the perfect time to do this. With a year and a bit to go before the 2018 elections they could make huge progress is shifting the focus and bringing in a lot of broad-tent left voters. But so far they've doubled down on their cluelessness, effectively guaranteeing more GOP victories.
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Last edited by luchog; 18th August 2017 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 18th August 2017, 05:10 PM   #156
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To review the key issues:

One need not be dishonest or fear monger to be an effective marketer of liberal messages.

All the answers are not already in effect. Pointing out all the shortcomings of the current Democratic and other liberal marketing misses the point. Of course some, if not most of that is failing, that's why we need better marketing research and development.

It is unrealistic and unnecessary to convince every single-issue voter* or extreme right winger. For elections in the US one only needs to swing the middle and get the base out to the polls.
*Another example: So no, we don't need to give up the pro-choice position. What we need to do is convince the anti-abortion group that the best way to end abortion is to provide access to birth control and good sex education. They are fixated on making abortion illegal. But their goal is to end abortion, something making abortion illegal has never accomplished. Now they are into closing clinics. You have to start there, target the beliefs using the beliefs.
... But I digress.

And it is not just in politics. We need better persuasion tactics promoting an evidence based world as well.
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