|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
15th December 2017, 08:09 AM | #1 |
Other (please write in)
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
|
The Best Judges
|
__________________
As cultural anthropologists have always said "human culture" = "human nature". You might as well put a fish on the moon to test how it "swims naturally" without the "influence of water". -Earthborn |
|
15th December 2017, 08:23 AM | #2 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
|
Now we have lay judges in the UK one type we call magistrates - but the system is set up so that is taken into account - they have a clerk that provides the legal knowledge they lack and can advise them on matters of law. But someone being appointed as a senior judge whose legal judgements and decisions can bind the entire nation not having any relevant legal background nor previous judging experience? That seems incredible to me.
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
15th December 2017, 08:27 AM | #3 |
Alta Viro
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,307
|
There have been multiple Trump nominees that have received a "not qualified" rating from the American Bar Association. As I understand, this is an unusual rating for someone nominated for such positions.
|
15th December 2017, 08:29 AM | #4 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
|
Am I being more ignorant than usual? These are "real" judges - they will be expected to hold court and make legally binding decisions? Or are these like say our Lord Lieutenants e.g. ceremonial?
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
15th December 2017, 08:34 AM | #5 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,837
|
This is the court this comically unqualified man is nominated for: United States District Court for the District of Columbia.
|
15th December 2017, 08:35 AM | #6 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,203
|
It seems like a common view among many Trump supporters that lack of education and experience is a qualification.
|
__________________
"You can't help respecting anybody who can spell TUESDAY, even if he doesn't spell it right; but spelling isn't everything. There are days when spelling Tuesday simply doesn't count." - WtP |
|
15th December 2017, 08:57 AM | #7 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Colorado
Posts: 5,718
|
Bingo! I think they view this as part of "draining the swamp".
If you believe the court system went off the rails with Marbury vs. Madison and has been off kilter ever since, then the appointment of people unfamiliar with (or hostile to) the post-Marbury/Madison legal system is perfectly reasonable. |
15th December 2017, 10:20 AM | #8 |
Merchant of Doom
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 15,112
|
Real judges.
Sadly, I believe the only requirement in the constitution for a judge is based on age. In the past, those that were unqualified were, for the most part, not confirmed. The current circus side-show that has become our government has tossed any idea of qualification out the window. Confirmation has become about politics only, now, without even a passing nod given to competence. Much like how we ended up with out current president. |
15th December 2017, 10:28 AM | #9 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
15th December 2017, 10:51 AM | #10 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
Is there something specific Trump would have to gain by this guy being appointed, or is it just having someone there he thinks he can control or who has the same goals as him?
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
15th December 2017, 11:13 AM | #11 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,583
|
|
15th December 2017, 11:17 AM | #12 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 32,124
|
So the latter rather than the former. Thanks. I thought that was probably the case, but didn't think it hurt to ask.
|
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
|
15th December 2017, 11:23 AM | #13 |
Winking at the Moon
Administrator
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 16,711
|
If there had been more time, I think it would have got to:
Q: Sir, do you know what a courtroom is? A: I, uh, don't have that information at my fingertips right now. Q: Have you ever been in a courtroom? A: No. I've learned more about US laws from reading here, the Fogbow and Quatloos than this Mr Peterson appears to know after going through law school. |
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader |
|
15th December 2017, 03:38 PM | #14 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,657
|
As repulsive as that might be to me, I don't have any trouble understanding it. What I don't understand is why they can't find relatively young (40 something) guys who are at least superficially qualified. There isn't a shortage of conservative lawyers who are good at their jobs. Loads of prosecutors fit the bill. Plenty of smart Republican corporate lawyers as well.
|
15th December 2017, 03:43 PM | #15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,083
|
I suspect it's about more than mere ideological purity, it's about being willing to play hardball on everything, no matter how petty.
Petersen is currently an FEC commissioner and part of the three-Republican bloc who has held up a number of discussions, most infamously on whether or not bagels or donuts should be served at the FEC's 40th anniversary party. (paywall). |
15th December 2017, 03:44 PM | #16 |
King of the Pod People
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,628
|
It's times like this I almost miss sunmaster. His pontifixating on how this schmuck is The Most Qualified Judge Ever would be entertaining.
|
15th December 2017, 03:54 PM | #17 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,657
|
|
15th December 2017, 04:07 PM | #18 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Patriot Nation
Posts: 22,131
|
|
15th December 2017, 04:55 PM | #19 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
|
|
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
|
15th December 2017, 05:41 PM | #20 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
|
I think part of it is, even a hard-core religious conservative might not be counted on to make the "proper" rulings, if they be educated in the law, because there's just a slight possibility that they might actually understand that some of the things the religious right want to do are illegal or unconstitutional. With this guy, though, he'll have no basis for his rulings other than his biases and beliefs. None of that pesky "rule of law" nonsense to get in the way. |
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
|
15th December 2017, 07:05 PM | #21 |
Straussian
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 15,419
|
People said Trump wasn't qualified, and look at how great the stock market has been doing! Enough of these snobs using fancy words they learned from "fully accredited" schools. We know Trump's picks will do a good job because they'll get sworn in on the BIBLE.
|
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo. Diablo: What's that supposed to mean? Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value. |
|
15th December 2017, 09:16 PM | #22 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,095
|
Trumpism isn’t just about greed and bigotry and misogyny and stupidity and treason, although it’s about all those things. It’s not just an assault on democracy and the free press and reason and objective truth, although it’s those things too. It’s also the practice of contempt for the very concept of professionalism.
|
15th December 2017, 10:59 PM | #23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
Appointments like this are an incredible insult to the American people. Judges have a life-changing impact on every person that comes before them, whether they're convicted or freed, and Republicans simply don't care if it's a ridiculously clueless jerk sending innocent people to jail and letting guilty people off, as long as he's a "conservative."
Every day in every way, today's Republican Party demonstrates that it is completely unfit to govern. **** this ****. |
15th December 2017, 11:27 PM | #24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 7,508
|
Do you think Trump is giving us the best people? No. What kind of a system is that? He gives us the worst people, he puts them in a bin, but in his hand when he’s picking ’em is the really the worst of the worst, congratulations you’re going to be a United States judge. Okay. What a system.
|
__________________
I don't need to fight to prove I'm right. - Baba O'Riley |
|
16th December 2017, 03:46 AM | #25 |
Misanthrope of the Mountains
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,133
|
Trump has delegated the responsibility to some idiot named McGahn who has a mission to get religious right judges in the courts to start getting decisions that go the way far right religious zealots want. So he trawls blogs looking for guys (definitely men) who write up nice think pieces arguing that you CAN ban Muslims from public office. That women are just the property of men. That the Bill of Rights only applies to Christians.
And so on. When McGahn finds someone that writes the right stuff and is young enough he will nominate him. Even if they are wholly unqualified. It was stuff like that this that I tried to explain to Bernie Bros as a potential threat to our nation and they just blew me off with a "both sides are bad" equivocation. |
__________________
"Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com
|
|
16th December 2017, 04:01 AM | #26 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
16th December 2017, 04:06 AM | #27 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
|
(I'm saying this as a citizen of a country in which I don't think we have the best process for selecting judges, so not pulling a "why aren't you doing as we do.")
This seems to be about the worse form of selection I can think of in a country with such strong democratic credentials as the USA. I knew judges were political appointments but I really did think there was some minimum legal qualification that would be necessary. Seems crazy to me that you can have senior judges with absolutely no relevant qualifications and experience. |
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
16th December 2017, 04:56 AM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 47,041
|
|
16th December 2017, 06:17 AM | #29 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,712
|
Yes, these are real judges who try cases and issue legal findings and verdicts. Some of them could be called upon to sit on appellate courts with two other judges and render legal rulings that set legal precedent for their districts and can be cited by judges in other districts.
|
16th December 2017, 06:19 AM | #30 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,712
|
|
16th December 2017, 06:40 AM | #31 |
Mafia Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,579
|
|
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen |
|
16th December 2017, 09:10 AM | #32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 8,843
|
Saw a pic of that guy Petersen on Facepalm. Jesus, he looks like a Dachau survivor! And scared. Surely there's a place for him on the gummint payroll. Are there no floors to mop? No trash to collect?
Why, it's an outrage! |
__________________
When I spoke out against the bullies, they called me woke. When I lashed them with a length of chain, they called me sir. |
|
16th December 2017, 09:21 AM | #33 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 20,952
|
Does it make a difference? Even at the SC level, "learned" judges frequently make split rulings with opposing sides making opposite decisions on the same question.
Judges just make rulings that are consistent with their prejudices then afterwards make up legal reasons to support their view. "Experienced" legal people are just better at making up the legal reasons (and others can just get a clerk to do the grunt work). |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
16th December 2017, 09:23 AM | #34 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bristol UK
Posts: 4,127
|
Judges should have a knowledge of the law and be men and women of character, and impartial, and an abstract sense of justice. They should be honest, fair-minded, able to concentrate sufficiently to listen to the evidence, and capable of making up his mind at the finish.
This is an example of a biased judge on You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U |
16th December 2017, 09:25 AM | #35 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,092
|
|
16th December 2017, 09:44 AM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 37,583
|
|
16th December 2017, 09:45 AM | #37 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 20,952
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
16th December 2017, 09:50 AM | #38 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,986
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
16th December 2017, 09:55 AM | #39 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,657
|
One reason why qualifications make a difference is that not every case is one that comes down to issues of tremendous political importance. Lots and lots of cases involve conflicts that might only be of great significance to the parties involved and people with close ties to them. In those cases a well-qualified, learned judge - regardless of political persuasion - will be better suited to give out proper rulings than someone without those traits.
|
16th December 2017, 09:59 AM | #40 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 20,952
|
It's pretty much human nature. The idea that people do objective research before coming up with a consistent rational conclusion is pretty much a myth. The opposite tends to happen. People form a belief then look for evidence to support that belief (hence the term, "confirmation bias").
The previous sentence in your quote confirms that this is happening in legal circles as well. |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|