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Old 15th December 2017, 08:09 AM   #1
Tsukasa Buddha
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The Best Judges

I really recommend watching the video.

Quote:
One of Donald Trump’s nominees to become a federal judge has failed to answer a string of basic questions about law.

Matthew Spencer Petersen admitted he was unfamiliar with several common legal terms during questioning by Republican Senator John Kennedy at a hearing earlier this week.
Linky.

I love the bit about blogging and the KKK at the end too.

Maybe this one won't get confirmed...
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:23 AM   #2
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Now we have lay judges in the UK one type we call magistrates - but the system is set up so that is taken into account - they have a clerk that provides the legal knowledge they lack and can advise them on matters of law. But someone being appointed as a senior judge whose legal judgements and decisions can bind the entire nation not having any relevant legal background nor previous judging experience? That seems incredible to me.
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:27 AM   #3
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There have been multiple Trump nominees that have received a "not qualified" rating from the American Bar Association. As I understand, this is an unusual rating for someone nominated for such positions.
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:29 AM   #4
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Am I being more ignorant than usual? These are "real" judges - they will be expected to hold court and make legally binding decisions? Or are these like say our Lord Lieutenants e.g. ceremonial?
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:34 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Am I being more ignorant than usual? These are "real" judges - they will be expected to hold court and make legally binding decisions? Or are these like say our Lord Lieutenants e.g. ceremonial?
This is the court this comically unqualified man is nominated for: United States District Court for the District of Columbia.
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:35 AM   #6
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It seems like a common view among many Trump supporters that lack of education and experience is a qualification.
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Old 15th December 2017, 08:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Finster View Post
It seems like a common view among many Trump supporters that lack of education and experience is a qualification.
Bingo! I think they view this as part of "draining the swamp".

If you believe the court system went off the rails with Marbury vs. Madison and has been off kilter ever since, then the appointment of people unfamiliar with (or hostile to) the post-Marbury/Madison legal system is perfectly reasonable.
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Old 15th December 2017, 10:20 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Am I being more ignorant than usual? These are "real" judges - they will be expected to hold court and make legally binding decisions? Or are these like say our Lord Lieutenants e.g. ceremonial?
Real judges.

Sadly, I believe the only requirement in the constitution for a judge is based on age.

In the past, those that were unqualified were, for the most part, not confirmed.

The current circus side-show that has become our government has tossed any idea of qualification out the window. Confirmation has become about politics only, now, without even a passing nod given to competence. Much like how we ended up with out current president.
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Old 15th December 2017, 10:28 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Real judges.

Sadly, I believe the only requirement in the constitution for a judge is based on age.

In the past, those that were unqualified were, for the most part, not confirmed.

The current circus side-show that has become our government has tossed any idea of qualification out the window. Confirmation has become about politics only, now, without even a passing nod given to competence. Much like how we ended up with out current president.
If Trump thinks the FBI is in "tatters," he should take a look at what's happened to the "world's greatest deliberative body" under McConnell.
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Old 15th December 2017, 10:51 AM   #10
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Is there something specific Trump would have to gain by this guy being appointed, or is it just having someone there he thinks he can control or who has the same goals as him?
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Old 15th December 2017, 11:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is there something specific Trump would have to gain by this guy being appointed, or is it just having someone there he thinks he can control or who has the same goals as him?
As I understand it, it's getting young conservative judges appointed who can influence decisions for decades and help turn the US into the theocracy that right wingers seem to want.

Last edited by The Don; 15th December 2017 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 15th December 2017, 11:17 AM   #12
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So the latter rather than the former. Thanks. I thought that was probably the case, but didn't think it hurt to ask.
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Old 15th December 2017, 11:23 AM   #13
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If there had been more time, I think it would have got to:

Q: Sir, do you know what a courtroom is?
A: I, uh, don't have that information at my fingertips right now.
Q: Have you ever been in a courtroom?
A: No.

I've learned more about US laws from reading here, the Fogbow and Quatloos than this Mr Peterson appears to know after going through law school.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:38 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
As I understand it, it's getting young conservative judges appointed who can influence decisions for decades and help turn the US into the theocracy that right wingers seem to want.
As repulsive as that might be to me, I don't have any trouble understanding it. What I don't understand is why they can't find relatively young (40 something) guys who are at least superficially qualified. There isn't a shortage of conservative lawyers who are good at their jobs. Loads of prosecutors fit the bill. Plenty of smart Republican corporate lawyers as well.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:43 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
As repulsive as that might be to me, I don't have any trouble understanding it. What I don't understand is why they can't find relatively young (40 something) guys who are at least superficially qualified. There isn't a shortage of conservative lawyers who are good at their jobs. Loads of prosecutors fit the bill. Plenty of smart Republican corporate lawyers as well.
I suspect it's about more than mere ideological purity, it's about being willing to play hardball on everything, no matter how petty.

Petersen is currently an FEC commissioner and part of the three-Republican bloc who has held up a number of discussions, most infamously on whether or not bagels or donuts should be served at the FEC's 40th anniversary party. (paywall).
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:44 PM   #16
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It's times like this I almost miss sunmaster. His pontifixating on how this schmuck is The Most Qualified Judge Ever would be entertaining.
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Old 15th December 2017, 03:54 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
I suspect it's about more than mere ideological purity, it's about being willing to play hardball on everything, no matter how petty.

Petersen is currently an FEC commissioner and part of the three-Republican bloc who has held up a number of discussions, most infamously on whether or not bagels or donuts should be served at the FEC's 40th anniversary party. (paywall).
You could well be right about that. There is indeed an ugly pettiness that characterizes the hardcore Trumpist that some of the finer conservative legal minds would not exhibit.
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Old 15th December 2017, 04:07 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
It's times like this I almost miss sunmaster. His pontifixating on how this schmuck is The Most Qualified Judge Ever would be entertaining.
You mean infuriating
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Old 15th December 2017, 04:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
As repulsive as that might be to me, I don't have any trouble understanding it. What I don't understand is why they can't find relatively young (40 something) guys who are at least superficially qualified. There isn't a shortage of conservative lawyers who are good at their jobs. Loads of prosecutors fit the bill. Plenty of smart Republican corporate lawyers as well.
They don't like smart guys. It's reverse snobbery.
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Old 15th December 2017, 05:41 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
As repulsive as that might be to me, I don't have any trouble understanding it. What I don't understand is why they can't find relatively young (40 something) guys who are at least superficially qualified. There isn't a shortage of conservative lawyers who are good at their jobs. Loads of prosecutors fit the bill. Plenty of smart Republican corporate lawyers as well.


I think part of it is, even a hard-core religious conservative might not be counted on to make the "proper" rulings, if they be educated in the law, because there's just a slight possibility that they might actually understand that some of the things the religious right want to do are illegal or unconstitutional.

With this guy, though, he'll have no basis for his rulings other than his biases and beliefs. None of that pesky "rule of law" nonsense to get in the way.
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Old 15th December 2017, 07:05 PM   #21
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People said Trump wasn't qualified, and look at how great the stock market has been doing! Enough of these snobs using fancy words they learned from "fully accredited" schools. We know Trump's picks will do a good job because they'll get sworn in on the BIBLE.
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Old 15th December 2017, 09:16 PM   #22
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Trumpism isn’t just about greed and bigotry and misogyny and stupidity and treason, although it’s about all those things. It’s not just an assault on democracy and the free press and reason and objective truth, although it’s those things too. It’s also the practice of contempt for the very concept of professionalism.
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Old 15th December 2017, 10:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by sts60 View Post
Trumpism isn’t just about greed and bigotry and misogyny and stupidity and treason, although it’s about all those things. It’s not just an assault on democracy and the free press and reason and objective truth, although it’s those things too. It’s also the practice of contempt for the very concept of professionalism.
Appointments like this are an incredible insult to the American people. Judges have a life-changing impact on every person that comes before them, whether they're convicted or freed, and Republicans simply don't care if it's a ridiculously clueless jerk sending innocent people to jail and letting guilty people off, as long as he's a "conservative."

Every day in every way, today's Republican Party demonstrates that it is completely unfit to govern. **** this ****.
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Old 15th December 2017, 11:27 PM   #24
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Do you think Trump is giving us the best people? No. What kind of a system is that? He gives us the worst people, he puts them in a bin, but in his hand when he’s picking ’em is the really the worst of the worst, congratulations you’re going to be a United States judge. Okay. What a system.

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Old 16th December 2017, 03:46 AM   #25
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Trump has delegated the responsibility to some idiot named McGahn who has a mission to get religious right judges in the courts to start getting decisions that go the way far right religious zealots want. So he trawls blogs looking for guys (definitely men) who write up nice think pieces arguing that you CAN ban Muslims from public office. That women are just the property of men. That the Bill of Rights only applies to Christians.

And so on. When McGahn finds someone that writes the right stuff and is young enough he will nominate him. Even if they are wholly unqualified.

It was stuff like that this that I tried to explain to Bernie Bros as a potential threat to our nation and they just blew me off with a "both sides are bad" equivocation.
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Old 16th December 2017, 04:01 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
If there had been more time, I think it would have got to:

Q: Sir, do you know what a courtroom is?
A: I, uh, don't have that information at my fingertips right now.
Q: Have you ever been in a courtroom?
A: No.

I've learned more about US laws from reading here, the Fogbow and Quatloos than this Mr Peterson appears to know after going through law school.
Q: Have you ever watched Judge Judy
A: Yes!

That's it you are confirmed, welcome aboard the gravy train heading into Swamp central!
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Old 16th December 2017, 04:06 AM   #27
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(I'm saying this as a citizen of a country in which I don't think we have the best process for selecting judges, so not pulling a "why aren't you doing as we do.")

This seems to be about the worse form of selection I can think of in a country with such strong democratic credentials as the USA. I knew judges were political appointments but I really did think there was some minimum legal qualification that would be necessary.

Seems crazy to me that you can have senior judges with absolutely no relevant qualifications and experience.
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If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
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Old 16th December 2017, 04:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
(I'm saying this as a citizen of a country in which I don't think we have the best process for selecting judges, so not pulling a "why aren't you doing as we do.")

This seems to be about the worse form of selection I can think of in a country with such strong democratic credentials as the USA. I knew judges were political appointments but I really did think there was some minimum legal qualification that would be necessary.

Seems crazy to me that you can have senior judges with absolutely no relevant qualifications and experience.
Well, why not. Police Chiefs and Sheriffs are political and voted in, they need no experience.

Unfortunately we are going the same way in the UK with the Tories elected Police & Crime Commissioners
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Old 16th December 2017, 06:17 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Am I being more ignorant than usual? These are "real" judges - they will be expected to hold court and make legally binding decisions? Or are these like say our Lord Lieutenants e.g. ceremonial?
Yes, these are real judges who try cases and issue legal findings and verdicts. Some of them could be called upon to sit on appellate courts with two other judges and render legal rulings that set legal precedent for their districts and can be cited by judges in other districts.
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Old 16th December 2017, 06:19 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Well, why not. Police Chiefs and Sheriffs are political and voted in, they need no experience.

Unfortunately we are going the same way in the UK with the Tories elected Police & Crime Commissioners
That depends on the state. Some states require a sheriff to hold a certification from a police academy and meet certain education requirements before they can run for office.
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Old 16th December 2017, 06:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes, these are real judges who try cases and issue legal findings and verdicts. Some of them could be called upon to sit on appellate courts with two other judges and render legal rulings that set binding legal precedent for their districts and can be cited by judges in other districts.
FTFY. A US appeals court decision is binding precedent for all the district courts that fall under it, so they have to follow it, and it's just precedent, that can be cited, for other district courts.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:10 AM   #32
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Saw a pic of that guy Petersen on Facepalm. Jesus, he looks like a Dachau survivor! And scared. Surely there's a place for him on the gummint payroll. Are there no floors to mop? No trash to collect?

Why, it's an outrage!
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:21 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seems crazy to me that you can have senior judges with absolutely no relevant qualifications and experience.
Does it make a difference? Even at the SC level, "learned" judges frequently make split rulings with opposing sides making opposite decisions on the same question.

Judges just make rulings that are consistent with their prejudices then afterwards make up legal reasons to support their view. "Experienced" legal people are just better at making up the legal reasons (and others can just get a clerk to do the grunt work).
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:23 AM   #34
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Judges should have a knowledge of the law and be men and women of character, and impartial, and an abstract sense of justice. They should be honest, fair-minded, able to concentrate sufficiently to listen to the evidence, and capable of making up his mind at the finish.

This is an example of a biased judge on You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Does it make a difference? Even at the SC level, "learned" judges frequently make split rulings with opposing sides making opposite decisions on the same question.

Judges just make rulings that are consistent with their prejudices then afterwards make up legal reasons to support their view. "Experienced" legal people are just better at making up the legal reasons (and others can just get a clerk to do the grunt work).
Imagine that you are unjustly accused of a crime, and you have to go before a judge who doesn't even know the rules of evidence.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:44 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Judges should have a knowledge of the law and be men and women of character, and impartial, and an abstract sense of justice. They should be honest, fair-minded, able to concentrate sufficiently to listen to the evidence, and capable of making up his mind at the finish.

This is an example of a biased judge on You Tube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyos-M48B8U
For those of you who don't click on random Youtube links, it's an old Peter Cook sketch.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:45 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Judges should have a knowledge of the law and be men and women of character, and impartial, and an abstract sense of justice. They should be honest, fair-minded, able to concentrate sufficiently to listen to the evidence, and capable of making up his mind at the finish.
And how does allowing politicians to appoint them achieve this?
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:50 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Does it make a difference? Even at the SC level, "learned" judges frequently make split rulings with opposing sides making opposite decisions on the same question.

Judges just make rulings that are consistent with their prejudices then afterwards make up legal reasons to support their view. "Experienced" legal people are just better at making up the legal reasons (and others can just get a clerk to do the grunt work).
What do you base this on?
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:55 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Does it make a difference? Even at the SC level, "learned" judges frequently make split rulings with opposing sides making opposite decisions on the same question.

Judges just make rulings that are consistent with their prejudices then afterwards make up legal reasons to support their view. "Experienced" legal people are just better at making up the legal reasons (and others can just get a clerk to do the grunt work).
One reason why qualifications make a difference is that not every case is one that comes down to issues of tremendous political importance. Lots and lots of cases involve conflicts that might only be of great significance to the parties involved and people with close ties to them. In those cases a well-qualified, learned judge - regardless of political persuasion - will be better suited to give out proper rulings than someone without those traits.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:59 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
What do you base this on?
It's pretty much human nature. The idea that people do objective research before coming up with a consistent rational conclusion is pretty much a myth. The opposite tends to happen. People form a belief then look for evidence to support that belief (hence the term, "confirmation bias").

The previous sentence in your quote confirms that this is happening in legal circles as well.
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