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Tags donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 11th December 2017, 05:34 PM   #3281
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I highly suspect the persecution complex is carried over from Christianity. They view sticking to their guns in the face of such insurmountable odds as a virtue, and any victory as a validation of the righteousness of their cause.
I think it's carried over from Karl Rove's Playbook, calculated political propaganda.
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Old 11th December 2017, 06:11 PM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
I highly suspect the persecution complex is carried over from Christianity. They view sticking to their guns in the face of such insurmountable odds as a virtue, and any victory as a validation of the righteousness of their cause.
Defeats are also described in such terms.
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Old 11th December 2017, 06:35 PM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The plot thickens. Whoosh goes the boomerang.
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Then you'd better duck.

That's beyond pathetic.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 11th December 2017 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:03 PM   #3284
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That's beyond pathetic.
What is beyond pathetic is the pretense that it even matters who was or wasn't involved in the production of the dossier.

The dossier is nothing but raw intelligence. Lots of individuals and organizations collect all kinds of raw intelligence all the time. Some of it may be true. None of it may be true. All of it may be true. To date, none of it has been publicly verified, and none of it has been credibly debunked.

Trump may or may not be a pisshead. Hillary may or may not need to be locked up. At this point, none of that matters.

What does matter is that Trump, pisshead or not, now controls a large nuclear arsenal, thanks in part to one Vladimir ****head Putin. That should be the primary matter of concern among any sane, rational parties that may continue to persist in isolated pockets on the surface of the monkeyball. Whether he is vulnerable to Russian blackmail is, at this point, both unknown and of secondary importance.

The important question is how crazy is the bastard.

Putin doesn't seem to be worried, but he's probably a psychopath, and they don't worry about anything. Little Rocket Man seems somewhat purturbed, throwing rockets around every time Trump's nose twitches and regularly describing him as a geriatric lunatic - which has compelled me to conclude that Little Rocket Man may not be as high on the psychopath scale as I had him pegged.

The only certainty in all of this is that these three creatures have clawed and scrabbled their ways into positions from which they threaten all of human civilization.

So. We keep playing silly games. No use trying to change now.
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:14 PM   #3285
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Old 11th December 2017, 08:18 PM   #3286
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Putin btw had his "mission accomplished" moment today, visiting Syria, meeting with Assad and calmly ordering the withdrawal of Russian troops from combat operations after he defeated the Empire's tool ISIS. He hurried up to make that order to again humiliate the Pentagon who are at the moment in complete denial mode frantically searching for some excuse to keep their new bases in north-eastern Syria while everybody in the region including their ex-proxies chant "get out" in unisono.
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Old 11th December 2017, 09:19 PM   #3287
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That's beyond pathetic.

Another of Putin's serial pullouts. Pull out. Run back in. Pull out...

Every time he thinks he's out, they pull him back in.

http://www.newsweek.com/most-russian...-mounts-659450
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:34 AM   #3288
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Has anyone found any voters who were swayed by Russian facebook posts?
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:50 AM   #3289
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Has anyone found any voters who were swayed by Russian facebook posts?
I'd guess that might depend on what you count as "swayed" and what point you're trying to get at. Trump was elected by the American people. There was a narrow enough margin that Russian ads that helped depress the turnout for Hillary and helped promote the turnout for Trump could maybe have swayed things, but that would just be one of many factors in play, the overwhelming amount of which are quite rooted in the US. Trying to demand clear evidence that one factor among many was completely responsible is not even potentially going to lead to any good argument.

Either way, that Russia was trying to mess with our elections is a problem all it's own, completely separate from whether their attempts to support Trump actually did enough to lead to his victory. Contrary to how I've seen some right-wingers try to dismiss the whole matter, being concerned about foreign countries (for many, that can and does include when the US has done so) trying to use illegal and/or underhanded methods to interfere with democratic electoral processes (especially in ways that we don't have decent countermeasures for) is worthy of attention on its own merits, with no need to try to make it all about unhappy people trying to get rid of Trump and make Hillary President.
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:07 AM   #3290
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Has anyone found any voters who were swayed by Russian facebook posts?
What a truly ludicrous question. Have you found any Twinkie eaters who were swayed by Hostess ads? People don't necessary know what swayed them. Especially dimwits, e.g. Trump supporters (disproportionately).

On top of which, I'm highly dubious that many people could identify which content emanated from Russia. And even if they could, I'm equally dubious they would admit to being swayed.

On top of which (as if necessary), do you actually suppose your readership is out polling their friends, neighbors, and co-workers on such matters? With said polling involving a statistically significant population size?

<loud guffaw>
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Old 12th December 2017, 07:57 AM   #3291
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The plot thickens. Whoosh goes the boomerang.
They keep repeating the same half-truths/lies. They say:
Fusion GPS has attracted scrutiny because Republican lawmakers have spent the better part of this year investigating whether the dossier, which was funded by the Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee, served as the basis for the Justice Department and the FBI to obtain FISA surveillance last year on a Trump campaign adviser named Carter Page.

When the reality is:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politi...ion/index.html
The FBI last year used a dossier of allegations of Russian ties to Donald Trump's campaign as part of the justification to win approval to secretly monitor a Trump associate, according to US officials briefed on the investigation
...
Officials familiar with the process say even if the application to monitor Page included information from the dossier, it would only be after the FBI had corroborated the information through its own investigation.
...
US law enforcement and intelligence officials have said US investigators did their own work, separate from the dossier, to support their findings that Russia tried to meddle in the 2016 presidential election in favor of Trump.


And round and round we go....
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Old 12th December 2017, 08:04 AM   #3292
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2017 Lie of the Year: Russian election interference is a 'made-up story'
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Old 12th December 2017, 09:22 AM   #3293
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
They keep repeating the same half-truths/lies. They say:
Fusion GPS has attracted scrutiny because Republican lawmakers have spent the better part of this year investigating whether the dossier, which was funded by the Hillary Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee, served as the basis for the Justice Department and the FBI to obtain FISA surveillance last year on a Trump campaign adviser named Carter Page.

When the reality is:
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politi...ion/index.html
The FBI last year used a dossier of allegations of Russian ties to Donald Trump's campaign as part of the justification to win approval to secretly monitor a Trump associate, according to US officials briefed on the investigation
...
Officials familiar with the process say even if the application to monitor Page included information from the dossier, it would only be after the FBI had corroborated the information through its own investigation.
...
US law enforcement and intelligence officials have said US investigators did their own work, separate from the dossier, to support their findings that Russia tried to meddle in the 2016 presidential election in favor of Trump.


And round and round we go....
Plus the pinning of the dossier's existence on Hillary. Republican primary candidates funded the creation, Hillary paid for a product that was already on the market.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 12th December 2017, 09:23 AM   #3294
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
"A mountain of evidence points to a single fact: Russia meddled in the U.S. presidential election of 2016." Another mountain of evidence points to the Trump campaign knowing about it. Another mountain of evidence points to a long list of things Trump has done or tried to do that would be on Putin's letter to Santa. So we know the quid, we know the quo, and we now know that both were discussed in secret meetings that TrumpCo repeatedly lied about. And of course we know of all the efforts to end any investigations.

The only thing that stands between Trump and impeachment is a Republican congress that appears to be completely devoid of integrity. But fortunately, there is a solution available in 2018.
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Old 12th December 2017, 11:03 AM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Putin btw had his "mission accomplished" moment today, visiting Syria, meeting with Assad and calmly ordering the withdrawal of Russian troops from combat operations after he defeated the Empire's tool ISIS. He hurried up to make that order to again humiliate the Pentagon who are at the moment in complete denial mode frantically searching for some excuse to keep their new bases in north-eastern Syria while everybody in the region including their ex-proxies chant "get out" in unisono.
Your praise of a great leader mixed with disdain for empire is endearing. I'll stop here, for kindness sake.
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Old 12th December 2017, 11:29 AM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Your praise of a great leader mixed with disdain for empire is endearing. I'll stop here, for kindness sake.
Why? Are you scared of her?
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Old 12th December 2017, 12:02 PM   #3297
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Fun fact/reminder of the day: Robert Mueller's first day on the job as FBI Director was September 4, 2001.

Explains a lot about how he was able to so rapidly build a massive (and so far, successful) investigation into a devastating attack on the United States that was carried out by foreign actors, IMO.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:04 PM   #3298
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
No, the DNC didn't announce the hack until June 14.
Ah. My apologies then.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:05 PM   #3299
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Originally Posted by Aber View Post
EX-foreign intelligence operative; a significant difference.
Clearly, because he's an "ex" foreign intelligence operative, he would have zero ties to that foreign government, yes?
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:08 PM   #3300
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
"A mountain of evidence points to a single fact: Russia meddled in the U.S. presidential election of 2016." Another mountain of evidence points to the Trump campaign knowing about it. Another mountain of evidence points to a long list of things Trump has done or tried to do that would be on Putin's letter to Santa. So we know the quid, we know the quo, and we now know that both were discussed in secret meetings that TrumpCo repeatedly lied about. And of course we know of all the efforts to end any investigations.

The only thing that stands between Trump and impeachment is a Republican congress that appears to be completely devoid of integrity. But fortunately, there is a solution available in 2018.
I would like evidence of the "pro"
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:08 PM   #3301
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Skepticism is characterized by a willingness to say that I don't know and by careful reasoning.

In this case, I can't say that even a preponderance of the evidence points to illegalities by Trump himself. There's some suggestive stuff out there, but not enough for me to think the odds are greater than 50/50 yet.

So I'll wait and see. If I had any practical role in the investigation, perhaps I wouldn't have the luxury of waiting, but I don't. I don't have to have an opinion on these things, so waiting and seeing seems the best option to me.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
None of this is to suggest that Trump is a respectable man or anything close to a reasonable choice for President. He's one of the least likeable public figures I've seen, an incompetent egotist with not any interest in actual policy or principles, a boob who lies just as soon as blink.
Even more agreed.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:13 PM   #3302
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I took EC to be referring to numerous "unnamed senior administration/intelligence officials" as the basis for much of what is discussed as accepted fact.

ETA: the "helpful" infographic with the dude in a hoodie hacking the DNC being touted as some kind of evidence was probably one of my personal favorites.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
Pretty much.

And Varwoche, I get where you're coming from, but it's an absurd request. It's been a part of so many posted articles, and it's been called out as speculative so many times, that it ends up feeling like a game here. I say "a lot of the grains of sand on the beach in Hawaii are actually ground up bits of coral" and you respond with "Yeah? Well show me one in person or I don't believe it!"

I get that's not your intention... but this is not difficult. You're asking me to do meaningless research for things that are prevalent and abundant in this thread. The fact that they're prevalent and abundant in this thread is exactly why I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:18 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
More curious are the parts you left out...

Quote:
CNN originally reported the email was released September 4 -- 10 days earlier -- based on accounts from two sources who had seen the email. The new details appear to show that the sender was relying on publicly available information. The new information indicates that the communication is less significant than CNN initially reported.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:28 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
More curious are the parts you left out...

To be fair, that disclaimer likely wasn't there when he posted the article. He's eager to deliver us all the bunk before it is debunked. And never looks back.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:37 PM   #3305
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clearly, because he's an "ex" foreign intelligence operative, he would have zero ties to that foreign government, yes?
No, but because ex-operative is what he is.
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Old 12th December 2017, 01:51 PM   #3306
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I would like evidence of the "pro"
Their efforts to hide the contacts is evidence, and it implies guilty knowledge of something.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:12 PM   #3307
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clearly, because he's an "ex" foreign intelligence operative, he would have zero ties to that foreign government, yes?
That foreign government which has arguably been the closest ally of the US for the last 40 years.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:39 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Clearly, because he's an "ex" foreign intelligence operative, he would have zero ties to that foreign government, yes?
Please explain: What would having non-zero "ties" to that government mean? Are you suggesting he was acting as an agent for that government, or is it more like Glenn Beck/Alex Jones "ties"?
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:44 PM   #3309
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Their efforts to hide the contacts is evidence, and it implies guilty knowledge of something.
Then go find the evidence of what that something is.find the "pro"
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:54 PM   #3310
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Then go find the evidence of what that something is.find the "pro"
It sure looks like Trump is getting ready to take a wrecking ball to Mueller's investigation before he can find much more, but we don't yet know what he already got out of Flynn and Papadopoulos.
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Old 12th December 2017, 02:59 PM   #3311
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Interesting comparison between Watergate and Russiagate:

Originally Posted by Alexander Mercouris
[...] In summary, it took the FBI just four months to arrive at a clear picture of what had happened. Within ten months – by the time of Haldeman’s and Ehrlichman’s resignations and Dean’s dismissal – the existence of the cover-up was accepted knowledge. Within a year the existence of the evidence which would implicate Nixon himself in the cover-up had been discovered

Contrast this with the Russiagate investigation.

It is known that the Russiagate investigation began in July 2016, following Wikileaks’ publication of the DNC emails and the FBI’s initial meetings with Christopher Steele, the compiler of the Trump Dossier. Eighteen months later it has however come up with no evidence of the conspiracy between the Trump campaign team and the Russians which it is supposed to be investigating.

This despite the fact that the investigative resources committed to the Russiagate investigation – which included surveillance of US citizens during the election – have been immeasurably greater and more intrusive than anything seen during Watergate. [...]
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Old 12th December 2017, 03:02 PM   #3312
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Pretty much.

And Varwoche, I get where you're coming from, but it's an absurd request. It's been a part of so many posted articles, and it's been called out as speculative so many times, that it ends up feeling like a game here. I say "a lot of the grains of sand on the beach in Hawaii are actually ground up bits of coral" and you respond with "Yeah? Well show me one in person or I don't believe it!"

I get that's not your intention... but this is not difficult. You're asking me to do meaningless research for things that are prevalent and abundant in this thread. The fact that they're prevalent and abundant in this thread is exactly why I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole.
Frankly, I find this evasive to the point of bizarre.

In thread after thread you complain about the behavior of the press. Yet time after time, you refuse to cite one, lonely, solitary example of the behavior you take issue with. What, are readers supposed to take your word for it? And proceed to have a conversation in the abstract?

Actually, it's worse than that. You not only refuse to cite examples. You're dismissive, as if a simple request for a citation is somehow jerking you around. I don't get it one bit.

Despite that it may not always seem so, this Politics forum exists within what ostensibly is a forum for skeptics / critical thinkers, with an ethos for supporting our claims. That ethos seems to have wilted since the time I first joined. Where's CFLarsen when you need him?
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:18 PM   #3313
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
To be fair, that disclaimer likely wasn't there when he posted the article. He's eager to deliver us all the bunk before it is debunked. And never looks back.
Fair point.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:24 PM   #3314
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, but because ex-operative is what he is.
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That foreign government which has arguably been the closest ally of the US for the last 40 years.
Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Please explain: What would having non-zero "ties" to that government mean? Are you suggesting he was acting as an agent for that government, or is it more like Glenn Beck/Alex Jones "ties"?
The majority of the dot-connecting with respect to Trump is based on people who have ties to the Russian government. Not direct employees of that government, but are in some fashion tied to it through a series of connections. In several cases, the connections are alleged (ie a bank that is alleged to have been involved in some alleged money laundering allegedly on behalf of people allegedly tied to Putin).

Trump was offered, but does not appear to have received*, information about his political opponent from a foreign person with alleged ties to a foreign government.

Clinton paid actual money for information that she is known to have received about her political opponent from a foreign person who was a known intelligence operative for a foreign country.

But in these two scenarios, Clinton's actions are perfectly acceptable, whereas Trump's actions are treasonous.

I'm not sure I follow the distinction.

* It is possible that he received information, but that this has not yet been discovered.
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Last edited by Emily's Cat; 12th December 2017 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:27 PM   #3315
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Interesting comparison between Watergate and Russiagate:
True story -

It takes just as long to build a doghouse than it does an entire affluent subdivision.

Honest!
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:30 PM   #3316
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Frankly, I find this evasive to the point of bizarre.

In thread after thread you complain about the behavior of the press. Yet time after time, you refuse to cite one, lonely, solitary example of the behavior you take issue with. What, are readers supposed to take your word for it? And proceed to have a conversation in the abstract?

Actually, it's worse than that. You not only refuse to cite examples. You're dismissive, as if a simple request for a citation is somehow jerking you around. I don't get it one bit.

Despite that it may not always seem so, this Politics forum exists within what ostensibly is a forum for skeptics / critical thinkers, with an ethos for supporting our claims. That ethos seems to have wilted since the time I first joined. Where's CFLarsen when you need him?
I've cited them repeatedly - I've cited them when I make the complaint. You're referencing a repeated complaint about things I've already cited, and have had several discussions about... as if there is no evidence. You're not asking me to support my argument - you're asking me to repeatedly regurgitate work I've already done ad nauseum.

If you were coming in when it was relevant, I would point you back to the information cited. Rather, you're coming in multiple pages after the fact, and following me through multiple threads, hounding me for the same thing over and over. This isn't argument, Varwoche. And it's not skepticism that you're demonstrating.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:34 PM   #3317
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
That's beyond pathetic.

Another of Putin's serial pullouts. Pull out. Run back in. Pull out...

Every time he thinks he's out, they pull him back in.

http://www.newsweek.com/most-russian...-mounts-659450
Putin's repeated failure to close anything is starting to look pathological. Even the cyber campaign is open-ended, and its purpose is vague. He maintains the frozen conflicts he inherited and has added a few of his own. It's as if he sees them as assets, but it's hard to see why.

He declared victory in Chechnya, of course, but it's noticeable how many Chechens feature in ISIS so that ain't over either.
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Old 12th December 2017, 04:58 PM   #3318
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A great question of history is certainly why those ludicrous limey landlords have such a deep hatred of Russia. And everybody else who stands against their right to rule the world. Oops, forget that question.
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Old 12th December 2017, 05:33 PM   #3319
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
The majority of the dot-connecting with respect to Trump is based on people who have ties to the Russian government. Not direct employees of that government, but are in some fashion tied to it through a series of connections. In several cases, the connections are alleged (ie a bank that is alleged to have been involved in some alleged money laundering allegedly on behalf of people allegedly tied to Putin).

Trump was offered, but does not appear to have received*, information about his political opponent from a foreign person with alleged ties to a foreign government.

Clinton paid actual money for information that she is known to have received about her political opponent from a foreign person who was a known intelligence operative for a foreign country.

But in these two scenarios, Clinton's actions are perfectly acceptable, whereas Trump's actions are treasonous.

I'm not sure I follow the distinction.

* It is possible that he received information, but that this has not yet been discovered.
Instead of thinking in terms of a political game, think of it in terms of the law. Russia is accused of espionage, aiding Trump's campaign, and money laundering, all of which are illegal. TrumpCo is being investigated for conspiring in those crimes in exchange of U.S. policies favorable to Russia.

What crime are you accusing Steele and Mueller of? Investigating TrumpCo?
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Old 12th December 2017, 06:37 PM   #3320
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
... Where's CFLarsen when you need him?
Last sighted posting in the comments of the SWIFT blog before it ceased.
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