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Old 11th August 2018, 08:26 PM   #41
beachnut
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Do aircraft not have enough room on their forty seven square feet of control panels for an ignition key?
Small aircraft may have door locks, and ignition keys. Most jet don't.

Ground crew can have the skill to start and taxi an aircraft. In the USAF if they were short of qualified ground crew for taxi, or towing, they would use pilots.


from multiple sources, and audio I have heard
Quote:
The man could be heard on audio recordings telling air traffic controllers that he is "just a broken guy." An air traffic controller called the man "Rich," and tried to convince the man to land the airplane.

"There is a runway just off to your right side in about a mile," the controller says, referring to an airfield at Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

"Oh man. Those guys will rough me up if I try and land there," the man responded, later adding "This is probably jail time for life, huh?"

Later the man said: "I've got a lot of people that care about me. It's going to disappoint them to hear that I did this ... Just a broken guy, got a few screws loose, I guess."

The employee added: Ive got a lot of people that care about me. Its going to disappoint them to hear that I did this. I would like to apologize to each and every one of them. Just a broken guy, got a few screws loose, I guess. Never really knew it, until now.

At another point, the employee said: Im gonna land it, in a safe kind of manner. I think Im gonna try to do a barrel roll, and if that goes good, Im just gonna nose down and call it a night.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:33 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sorry, I thought something like that could only happen in a regional airport. I am doubly staggered. I've only ever got airside as a passenger or with a security pass. That you achieved it by riding a bike through is a major security failure.


If we wanted to be really pedantic, I should probably say that I rode my bike "around" security. Actually not even that, the outdoor smoking area, was a small semi-walled courtyard, that typically had a number of people sitting in it, getting some sun, and smoking. I was using that entrance, because it was the nearest to my home/pedestrian gate on my side of the airport. To get to the main entrance and security, I would have had to ride further.

The first time I "parked" the bike there, I asked a couple of people if they thought it would be OK, and they both said "yes". There were two doors and a short corridor between that area and the concourse.

In hindsight, I think the hi-vis vest was the magic key.

These days, that entire terminal is gone, so hopefully everything is much more secure.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:38 PM   #43
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Thinking further about this... It was probably the combination of business attire, with the hi-vis over the top.
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Old 11th August 2018, 08:40 PM   #44
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Edited by kmortis:  Removed reply to previously moderated content

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Old 12th August 2018, 12:43 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You think a passenger plane that requires almost a mile to take off would have some trouble going vertical?

The Q400 is designed to relatively STOL with turboprop engines capable of getting up near jet speed. Unloaded it would be quite agile.
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Old 12th August 2018, 01:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
... Unloaded it would be quite agile.
That thought actually occurred to me later. MIght be quite peppy without 70+ lard asses in the seats.

Still don't know if he looped it, though he did ask if it could.
Not agreeing with some "pilot" commentators saying he "was a skilled pilot"... what he asked was could he "backflip" it? Sheesh.
Oh... lacking any word on if he had stick time and how much, I was going to speculate he might have just played with PC flight sims/games. Yep... looks that way. Silly rabbit... the takeoff's the easy part.

Unless this becomes "a thing", I think it's a tempest in a teapot.
Hell, boosting a general aviation light craft is easier than popping the lock on your home bathroom (okay... a little worse). But for obvious reasons, Piper theft isn't a real big deal. Commercial carriers from even more well regulated fields... even less so.
Speaking of... Daily Beast (and others?) are stuck calling this a "hijack". How's that?
Grand theft aeroplane... sure. Hijacking? I'm not sure I like that usage of the word here.
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Old 12th August 2018, 01:44 AM   #47
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As a flight sim expert of about two hours experience, getting them up in the air was not so hard. It was getting them down that took real skill.


I think he did a roll, not a loop, and came out of the roll as the end part of a loop. Hence only just clearing the water at the bottom of it.
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Old 12th August 2018, 01:52 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
...
I think he did a roll, not a loop, and came out of the roll as the end part of a loop. Hence only just clearing the water at the bottom of it.
Right... just like the reporters, you lost me.
(though that is the one "maneuver" vid clip I have seen... very close call that was)
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Old 12th August 2018, 04:36 AM   #49
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Hearing talk of flying near Olympics had me confused,but apparently it's a scenic area.

Transcript here https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jEpxK9rGAL8
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Old 12th August 2018, 07:55 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
As a flight sim expert of about two hours experience, getting them up in the air was not so hard. It was getting them down that took real skill.


I think he did a roll, not a loop, and came out of the roll as the end part of a loop. Hence only just clearing the water at the bottom of it.
Hard to tell from the video, but it looked like some sort of Immelmann. Part of a loop with a half roll at the end to get back upright. Kind of inverted from the classic version, perhaps.
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Old 12th August 2018, 08:13 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by AJM8125 View Post
He commented a couple times that he was surprised about fuel consumption rate - ran out of gas?
I've never been in an airplane before but I can kind of guess at what it's like to be a pilot to answer this.

You're doing an instrument scan. Altimiter, vertical airspeed, oil temp, exhaust gas temp, fuel, rpm's, looking out the window... busy, busy, busy.

And there's lots of calculations to be doing. Current altitude = 1,000 with vertical airspeed = -200 despite engines on full means five minutes to impact. You're in "down air" and there's nuthin' you're gonna do about it. It's a Lee side rotor, or the spot just outside the uplift of thermals from cloud formation, wave turbulence, whatever.

Let's say it's a 737 burning 5,000 lbs of fuel an hour. If you have 1,000 lbs of fuel on board, then impact is about 12 minutes away.

When you teach someone else to fly, they can take off the first time in the seat. That's not complicated. It's talking to ground, navigating the way to take-off position, doing your run-up, all the pre-flight instrument and power checks etc.

If it's a prop, you have to use a little rudder and it comes naturally. But a jet? Easier in terms of rudder and aelerons. They're real stable compared to a small plane.

If he had as much practice landing as he did flying, then he could have brought that thing in. They could have talked him down. Just zip out a good distance and come in straight, no problem. You've got red and white approach lights, all you have to do is conrrol throttle to stay in the bands.

Flight simultators just piss me off. Everything is wrong about them to me and I get frustrated right away. So I don't know personally how good you can get at various aspects of flying. But it seems logical you could take off and then crash it into something, yeah. First time out. It seems clear to me he wanted to.
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Old 13th August 2018, 08:03 AM   #52
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They have found his 'body parts and flight box' amongst the wreckage.

It strikes me, suicidal or not, he must have been terrified when he realised there was no way he could land the thing.
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Old 13th August 2018, 09:00 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
He was tailed by F-15s ,hmm was he shot down? Aside from that how do you take off without permission ,things like airspace need to be considered surely?
Traffic lights and air traffic control are similar. They coordinate the permission of cooperating vehicles to use a shared space.

Neither one can reach over and give you a time out when you don't cooperate.
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:27 AM   #54
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He mentioned feeling lightheaded due to cabin pressure,so maybe that affected him also.
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:29 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
Traffic lights and air traffic control are similar. They coordinate the permission of cooperating vehicles to use a shared space.

Neither one can reach over and give you a time out when you don't cooperate.
I was meaning was it luck he didnt hit another plane coming in as he took off,not having permission to enter any empty space?
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Old 13th August 2018, 10:42 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
He mentioned feeling lightheaded due to cabin pressure,so maybe that affected him also.
It'll be interesting to see if he was ever at sufficient altitude for that to have been a factor. The FDR will have the info. And of course, they'll be doing drug and tox screening on his remains.
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Old 13th August 2018, 03:53 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Azrael 5 View Post
I was meaning was it luck he didnt hit another plane coming in as he took off,not having permission to enter any empty space?
I see what you're asking. Well in this case, ATC is considerably more reactive than traffic lights are. Tower was aware they had a rogue airplane once he started moving on the taxiways without permission. I suppose they were lucky that nothing was on final right at that time, but even so the landing craft would have been informed that the runway was no longer clear.

Once in the air, controllers got down to clearing everyone else away as best they could. There are several youtube videos up already with replays of some of the ATC communication. I'm sure it caused a lot of headaches (especially because they didn't know what he was planning), but it wasn't blind luck that there was no collision.
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Old 13th August 2018, 03:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
As a flight sim expert of about two hours experience, getting them up in the air was not so hard. It was getting them down that took real skill.
Have you ever flown a real plane? PC flight simulators seemed excessively hard to land. I landed a real plane many times before I had a successful simulator landing.
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Old 14th August 2018, 06:36 AM   #59
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Just reading an article this morning that Russell's only flying experience may have been video games.
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Old 14th August 2018, 07:12 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
I've never been in an airplane before but I can kind of guess at what it's like to be a pilot to answer this.
ABP, since you've never been in a plane before... Can you tell if the mechanic was out of control? or if he was actually executing an aileron roll or whatever this is: https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=k7SBd_1533989746


It's like he was toying with the aircraft over the water, and then just lost his bearings. But since you are not a pilot, and have no idea, I thought I'd ask your opinion.
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Old 14th August 2018, 08:02 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Mark F View Post
Just reading an article this morning that Russell's only flying experience may have been video games.
I expect the "video games" in question were flight simulators. Some are pretty good, I think.
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Old 14th August 2018, 01:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I expect the "video games" in question were flight simulators. Some are pretty good, I think.
Hmm... PC flight sims? Not really. Think of driving/racing games compared to motoring down the road. And it goes toward why IRL landing is [/i]not[/i] a skill to be learned there.
"Flying" with a keyboard is pretty much a non-starter. A second (or third) monitor; proper controls and a darkened room... and it starts to be fun. Though I've seen evidence of home setups that look tempting as hell. Of course even the basics are useful for learning procedure etc.

Real sim facilities (research/training, gov't and corporate) are a whole different animal. Fully enclosed cab; proper controls and a large monitor array to create a windscreen effect and you can really get your heart rate up. Oddly (or not) the "realism" of the display graphics are one of the least important parts... we tend to seriously "get into" the simulation despite less than realistic CGI imagery. Go brain.
Adding even the most modest motion base jacks the realism through the roof.

I'm trying to recall the name of the old, old little box cab training sim (with tiny wings ) from the 30s/40s (?)... no display, just a minimal dash of analog instruments for in essense just flight and instrument conditions training, no landings obviously (and a flat plotter outside for the instructor to watch), but with a modest motion base. That thing would kick your ass. Absolute tons of fun.
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Old 14th August 2018, 01:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
I'm trying to recall the name of the old, old little box cab training sim (with tiny wings ) from the 30s/40s (?)... no display, just a minimal dash of analog instruments for in essense just flight and instrument conditions training, no landings obviously (and a flat plotter outside for the instructor to watch), but with a modest motion base. That thing would kick your ass. Absolute tons of fun.
That would be the old Link "Blue Box" trainer. Interesting device. The flight computer and motion base were an integrated analog pneumatic mechanical computer. Air pressure was supplied by a pump from the Hammond Organ company. Later models had an electrical analog computer navigation and tracking system added.

Almost, but not quite the first flight simulator.
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Old 14th August 2018, 02:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
ABP, since you've never been in a plane before... Can you tell if the mechanic was out of control? or if he was actually executing an aileron roll or whatever this is: https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=k7SBd_1533989746


It's like he was toying with the aircraft over the water, and then just lost his bearings. But since you are not a pilot, and have no idea, I thought I'd ask your opinion.
That's the first film I watched of him - lol, he cut that a little close.

Seems to me he studied what airspeed and altitude he needed going into a loop. You can't pull that off without knowing both. This says to me that maneuver was extremely important to him, his legacy. He wanted to thrill people with the bottom of the loop so close to water. So he nailed the airspeed and minimum altitude going into it.

I owned a Citabria for over ten years before moving on to supercubs. That name is "airbatic" spelled backwards, and a number of world record stunts have been performed in that plane.

I didn't like it. They made me sick. They're great STOL planes, (short take-off-and-landing), second only to supercubs. So that's why I had it, but boy it could do some insane stuff.

My stunt instructor was killed in a crash like so many others. Ole Sparky, lol.

One day I flew into his hangar, I had to see his mechanic Tom and Sparky was in there so he says let's go do a bunch of barrel rolls, bush bunny. That hangar used to call me so because my belly was green from mowing up so much tall grass.

I didn't have my rear stick with me. Sparky looks around the plane and digs up a really short hammer, the handle of which fit into the hole for the stick. He shows it to Tom for a laugh, and off we went.
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Old 14th August 2018, 02:39 PM   #65
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A couple of YouTube clips with the ATC audio / subtitles and the video:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos on ATC - Pilot interaction lately. It's fascinating how much work goes into the smooth flow of traffic at an airport.

You can hear the tower trying to get a hold of the plane as it's taxiing to the runway on the ATC audio in the first video above.
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Old 14th August 2018, 02:52 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
That would be the old Link "Blue Box" trainer. Interesting device. ...
The Link trainer. Thank you, thank you, etc. (serious early onset senior moment there )

And thanks for the details. Ours at AMES was old, but we did have the plotter. Same blue and gold livery (Navy?) too.
Same gov't gray walls as well.
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Old 14th August 2018, 02:57 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
That's the first film I watched of him - lol, he cut that a little close.

Seems to me he studied what airspeed and altitude he needed going into a loop. You can't pull that off without knowing both. This says to me that maneuver was extremely important to him, his legacy. He wanted to thrill people with the bottom of the loop so close to water. So he nailed the airspeed and minimum altitude going into it.
...
IMO... I think you're dreaming.
He failed that roll hard.* Came out 90 degrees off entry... and damn near ditched.
He (from what little I've seen transcribed) seemed to have had little or minimal knowledge of actual flying/navigation/altitude/fuel consumption, etc.
You see a plan... I say he was stupendously lucky not to have ended right there.


* I know the move, I just don't think that's whet he "planned". When I wasn't, as was my wont, flying the entire final of the big Shuttle sim (a bigger pig in the air than that Q400 I'm sure) inverted... my "thing" was to squeeze a third roll from the fairly low IP (Initial Position), everyone could do two.
Keeping it on course was a bear... but then, that was the plan.
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Old 14th August 2018, 05:54 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Bindamel View Post
A couple of YouTube clips with the ATC audio / subtitles and the video:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I've been watching a lot of YouTube videos on ATC - Pilot interaction lately. It's fascinating how much work goes into the smooth flow of traffic at an airport.

You can hear the tower trying to get a hold of the plane as it's taxiing to the runway on the ATC audio in the first video above.
The professionalism of that ATC guy is amazing. I'm glad the video producers didn't try to merge the audio with the video like the local teevee has been doing, when they've no clue what time was what.
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Old 15th August 2018, 05:36 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
IMO... I think you're dreaming.
He failed that roll hard.* Came out 90 degrees off entry... and damn near ditched.
He (from what little I've seen transcribed) seemed to have had little or minimal knowledge of actual flying/navigation/altitude/fuel consumption, etc.
You see a plan... I say he was stupendously lucky not to have ended right there.


* I know the move, I just don't think that's whet he "planned". When I wasn't, as was my wont, flying the entire final of the big Shuttle sim (a bigger pig in the air than that Q400 I'm sure) inverted... my "thing" was to squeeze a third roll from the fairly low IP (Initial Position), everyone could do two.
Keeping it on course was a bear... but then, that was the plan.
In fact, right after the roll, he says "I was kinda hoping that was gonna be it, you know?" (6:55 of the second video) That suggests to me that he wasn't terribly concerned about succeeding on the roll.
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Old 15th August 2018, 04:31 PM   #70
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Listening to the audio he sounded like Andy from Parks and Rec.
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Old 16th August 2018, 06:27 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Hard to tell from the video, but it looked like some sort of Immelmann. Part of a loop with a half roll at the end to get back upright. Kind of inverted from the classic version, perhaps.

Looked kinda like a poorly executed Split S.
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Old 16th August 2018, 07:46 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
Looked kinda like a poorly executed Split S.
Yes, that looks closer.
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Old 20th August 2018, 07:07 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
IMO... I think you're dreaming.
He failed that roll hard.* Came out 90 degrees off entry... and damn near ditched.
He (from what little I've seen transcribed) seemed to have had little or minimal knowledge of actual flying/navigation/altitude/fuel consumption, etc.
You see a plan... I say he was stupendously lucky not to have ended right there.
No piloting skill in evidence there at all. He seems to have been just yanking the stick around (you know, just like most players do in a PC flight "sim". I know whereof I speak. I am a fighter ace in IL-2 Sturmovik! ).
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