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Old 28th August 2018, 04:40 AM   #121
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's largely because any attempt at greater control over the access and distribution of firearms is interpreted as an invasion of personal "freedoms". So in effect, no price is too high.
Many gun bans do limit personal freedom. People can disagree on what is or is not reasonable or acceptable, but much of the modern US gun control movement is predicated on restricting access across the board to particular types of firearms.

It's inherently a prohibitionist argument. The general public must have its options restricted because a small portion will behave badly. Given the strong strain of individualism in the USA, it's a tough argument to make.
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Old 28th August 2018, 04:51 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The Desert Eagle is a gimmick.

There, I said it.
There, I agree.
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Old 28th August 2018, 10:34 AM   #123
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If the left can agree to let me have my guns, then I'll agree not to shoot them (on purpose).
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Old 28th August 2018, 10:47 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Many gun bans do limit personal freedom. People can disagree on what is or is not reasonable or acceptable, but much of the modern US gun control movement is predicated on restricting access across the board to particular types of firearms.

It's inherently a prohibitionist argument. The general public must have its options restricted because a small portion will behave badly. Given the strong strain of individualism in the USA, it's a tough argument to make.
This.
I support background checks and stricter rules as to who should own certain type of weapons, but oppose an across the board ban.
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Old 28th August 2018, 10:55 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I am responding to what argument is being put forth. Go and read. It's constantly bandied about that "more guns equals more gun crime."

However, even your correction fails, and it fails for the same reason. You're claiming a correlation a causitive one. You're wanting to say "more availability causes more gun crime."

Again, not true. All I have to do is provide one instance but again, the instances are all over the place. Washington DC for example, or Chicago both have extremely strict gun laws and gun ownership is quite a bit lower than other areas and other states. Yet the crime rates were sky-high in the former places.

Over the entire United States, gun ownership has risen and crime still has fallen, including gun crime.

It's not as low as we all (and I mean that sincerely) want.

Let's start actually solving the problems which make people want to commit crimes in the first place and crime gun crime will drop further.




Yet you're still here and in every other gun control/debate thread, pushing the exact same phony statistics, making the exact same anti-gun claims and sailing by being critical of the real issues that matter most to the whole of our society.




Hm. The US has imposed restrictions, yet no impact on the 'gun death rate.' But you're saying it's because of a societal concept of gun ownership is the real problem?

You mean exactly what I've been saying all along? And yet you claim you care so much that you ignore the actual problems behind all the gun violence and continue to do the same thing you admit here doesn't work?

Oh, I forgot. It's too hard to actually fix the systemic problems driving our 'gun violence.'
WHat I want to know is WHY these mass shootings are happening more often.
The problem is people don't want to look at that; easier to posture about guns.
It's also a problem that is probably not solvable by legislatation;and a lot of people have a "there ought to be a law" mentality. There are very uncomfortable with a problem you can solve by passing a law, and prefer not to deal with them.
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Old 28th August 2018, 05:07 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
WHat I want to know is WHY these mass shootings are happening more often.
The answer to that question is complex and multifaceted. Availability and access to firearms is undoubtedly a part of the answer, but access to mental health services and the pervasive and long-term culture of gun acceptance are also a part of it, as are the legal shenanigans around the 2nd Amendment and Heller and a long history of failed attempts at legal gun control. Where we make our mistake is in focusing too hard on only one aspect of the problem and ignoring others, which is something that I have definitely done, as have many others on this forum and elsewhere.
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Old 28th August 2018, 05:29 PM   #127
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I'm going to get a Sig Sauer p365 as soon as they actually get them is stock around here.

In any case, over 60% of the people who die from gunfire kill themselves. That means mental health problems cause more firearm deaths than all other causes put together. As long as fake news blames guns, the actual problem causing 62% of the deaths is never going to be addressed, let alone solved.
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Old 28th August 2018, 07:06 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by BrooklynBaby View Post
In any case, over 60% of the people who die from gunfire kill themselves. That means mental health problems cause more firearm deaths than all other causes put together. As long as fake news blames guns, the actual problem causing 62% of the deaths is never going to be addressed, let alone solved.
Even without considering mental health, which is definitely something that needs to be considered, the availability of a firearm increases the probability for a suicide attempt to be completed. More people use a gun to end their own life than any other method. The currently-supported theory is that other methods usually give a person time to reconsider. Guns are more or less instantaneous and facilitate a spur-of-the-moment decision.
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Old 29th August 2018, 05:28 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The answer to that question is complex and multifaceted. Availability and access to firearms is undoubtedly a part of the answer, but access to mental health services and the pervasive and long-term culture of gun acceptance are also a part of it, as are the legal shenanigans around the 2nd Amendment and Heller and a long history of failed attempts at legal gun control. Where we make our mistake is in focusing too hard on only one aspect of the problem and ignoring others, which is something that I have definitely done, as have many others on this forum and elsewhere.
Sure, but firearms have been widely available in the USA for a long time. If anything, firearms were more common in American households in the past than today.
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Old 29th August 2018, 09:24 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Even without considering mental health, which is definitely something that needs to be considered, the availability of a firearm increases the probability for a suicide attempt to be completed. More people use a gun to end their own life than any other method. The currently-supported theory is that other methods usually give a person time to reconsider. Guns are more or less instantaneous and facilitate a spur-of-the-moment decision.
I watched a show years ago about people who had survived jumping off of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco. All of them said they changed their mind about wanting to die immediately after they jumped when it was too late to turn back. Who knows, maybe Anthony Bourdain changed his mind right before the blood flow to his brain was blocked and he blacked out. But, no one blamed his bathrobe belt. Dianne Feinstein has blamed the bridge in a way, securing millions of federal tax dollars to put a net under the Golden Gate Bridge to catch people who jump. Total cost estimated to be around $200 million, and it is projected to be ready in 2021. The skeptic in me is saying that people will just find another place to jump or an alternate method, and the money would have been better spent reaching out to people having suicidal thoughts and helping them to see that yes, things can and will get better if you give them a chance.
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Old 29th August 2018, 12:06 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
WHat I want to know is WHY these mass shootings are happening more often.
The problem is people don't want to look at that; easier to posture about guns.
It's also a problem that is probably not solvable by legislatation;and a lot of people have a "there ought to be a law" mentality. There are very uncomfortable with a problem you can solve by passing a law, and prefer not to deal with them.
The copy cat effect is one possible reason.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University. The effect lasts about 13 days, they write in the report published Thursday in the Public Library of Science journal PLoS ONE."
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Old 29th August 2018, 12:10 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The copy cat effect is one possible reason.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...-finds-n386141

"Police have said so for years and now scientists have measured the effect: Mass shootings and school attacks do inspire copycats.

As many as 20 to 30 percent of attacks are set off by other attacks, according to researchers at Arizona State University and Northeastern Illinois University. The effect lasts about 13 days, they write in the report published Thursday in the Public Library of Science journal PLoS ONE."
I also wonder if "mass shooting" has become the default for pissed off people to choose for suicide missions.

Doesn't seem like there are as many targeted assassinations like there used to be. Would the bjork stalker of today instead be a mass shooter? What about the John Lennon killer? Seems that shooting up large groups has supplanted that trope among the deranged and pissed off.
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Old 29th August 2018, 05:25 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I also wonder if "mass shooting" has become the default for pissed off people to choose for suicide missions.

Doesn't seem like there are as many targeted assassinations like there used to be. Would the bjork stalker of today instead be a mass shooter? What about the John Lennon killer? Seems that shooting up large groups has supplanted that trope among the deranged and pissed off.
That is an interesting question, but I don't have an answer for it.
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