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Old 21st July 2019, 08:58 AM   #3601
ceptimus
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All Politicians always try to ride on the coat tails of a national team's sports win.



Image from this BBC report.

Last edited by ceptimus; 21st July 2019 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 21st July 2019, 10:52 AM   #3602
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All Politicians always try to ride on the coat tails of a national team's sports win.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cp...nd_team_pa.jpg

Image from this BBC report.
It's the end of term when you're traditionally allowed to bring games in. She just brought the whole team.
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Old 21st July 2019, 11:07 AM   #3603
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All Politicians always try to ride on the coat tails of a national team's sports win.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cp...nd_team_pa.jpg

Image from this BBC report.
Did she serve them cheeseburgers from McDonald's?
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Old 21st July 2019, 12:16 PM   #3604
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Did she serve them cheeseburgers from McDonald's?

Fish 'n Chips from Poppies. At least there's the Omega 3 edge.
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Old 21st July 2019, 08:55 PM   #3605
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Quick question: Assuming Boris gets to be PM and the rate of political resignations and defections away from the Tories, and Labour gets its ******* act together, how long after parliament resumes will it take before there is a Motion of No Confidence in the government and another general election is called?

That is, will Boris have the shortest and most ineffectual PM-ship in UK history?
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Last edited by Norman Alexander; 21st July 2019 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:36 AM   #3606
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Quick question: Assuming Boris gets to be PM and the rate of political resignations and defections away from the Tories, and Labour gets its ******* act together, how long after parliament resumes will it take before there is a Motion of No Confidence in the government and another general election is called?

That is, will Boris have the shortest and most ineffectual PM-ship in UK history?
There won't be a motion of no confidence and if there was BJ would win it. BJ would also win a GE anyway.

The idea that BJ is a liability for the Tories is a nonsense. He's the most popular and well known politician in the UK. He might be incompetent but when did that ever matter?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:39 AM   #3607
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
All Politicians always try to ride on the coat tails of a national team's sports win.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/onesport/cp...nd_team_pa.jpg

Image from this BBC report.
How apt. The cricket team repeatedly failed to get a majority of runs in the final.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:30 AM   #3608
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Remoaner ministers are resigning in protest at a likely Boris win in Prime Ministerial race (or maybe quitting before they can be fired ?). They say that they don't want a no-deal Brexit which will they say will be very damaging.

So far it's Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Alan Duncan, but the rumour is that there are others are considering their positions.

Quote:
Sir Alan Duncan has quit as a foreign office minister in protest against a possible Boris Johnson victory in the Conservative leadership race.

In his resignation letter, Sir Alan described Brexit as "a dark cloud".

Chancellor Philip Hammond and Justice Secretary David Gauke have already said they intend to resign if he wins.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49069880

Last edited by The Don; 22nd July 2019 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:31 AM   #3609
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Remoaner ministers are resigning in protest at a likely Boris win in Prime Ministerial race (or maybe quitting before they can be fired ?). They say that they don't want a no-deal Brexit which will they say will be very damaging.

So far it's Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Alan Duncan, but the rumour is that there are others are considering their positions.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49069880
It's possible they're jumping before they're pushed but it's not impossible they think having held high office in the widely-scorned May government will actually look better on their c.v. than what's coming next.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:54 AM   #3610
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Remoaner ministers are resigning in protest at a likely Boris win in Prime Ministerial race (or maybe quitting before they can be fired ?). They say that they don't want a no-deal Brexit which will they say will be very damaging.

So far it's Phil Hammond, David Gauke and Alan Duncan, but the rumour is that there are others are considering their positions.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49069880

Shows what a total liar Theresa May was - she said, over and over again, that, "No deal is better than a bad deal", knowing that she'd chosen her cabinet and ministers stuffed full of remainers who were not prepared to countenance 'no deal' under any circumstances.

Anyway, good riddance to the lot of them, let's hope they lose the Tory whip before the next election, and are therefore deselected and lose their jobs.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:58 AM   #3611
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I see Jo Swinson has been elected the new leader of the Liberal Democrats. I wonder how many of the Lib Dems will demand a second election because they're not happy with the outcome of this first one?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 09:04 AM   #3612
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Shows what a total liar Theresa May was - she said, over and over again, that, "No deal is better than a bad deal", knowing that she'd chosen her cabinet and ministers stuffed full of remainers who were not prepared to countenance 'no deal' under any circumstances.

Anyway, good riddance to the lot of them, let's hope they lose the Tory whip before the next election, and are therefore deselected and lose their jobs.
Exactly the whole brexit has been about fighting the will of the people. The people wanted a closed border with the EU and that means closing the Irish border, to try to keep that border open is spitting in the face of democracy.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 09:12 AM   #3613
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Shows what a total liar Theresa May was - she said, over and over again, that, "No deal is better than a bad deal", knowing that she'd chosen her cabinet and ministers stuffed full of remainers who were not prepared to countenance 'no deal' under any circumstances.

Anyway, good riddance to the lot of them, let's hope they lose the Tory whip before the next election, and are therefore deselected and lose their jobs.
In fairness, she would have had to find a cabinet of Brexiteers capable of forming complete sentences without including too many racial epithets or obviously bigoted things. I'm not sure there are enough to fill the cabinet.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 09:15 AM   #3614
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
In fairness, she would have had to find a cabinet of Brexiteers capable of forming complete sentences without including too many racial epithets or obviously bigoted things. I'm not sure there are enough to fill the cabinet.
It will be interesting to see if Boris manages to do it - assuming the remoaners allow him to try. Seems some remoaners, Amber Rudd?, are so keen to keep their cabinet jobs that they don't mind pretending to embrace 'no deal', for a while longer yet...
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:14 AM   #3615
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It will be interesting to see if Boris manages to do it - assuming the remoaners allow him to try. Seems some remoaners, Amber Rudd?, are so keen to keep their cabinet jobs that they don't mind pretending to embrace 'no deal', for a while longer yet...
No, because once he is Prime Minister he can finally get out the plans he, Rees-Mogg and Farage have worked out in detail, present them to the EU, watch them dissolve in tears of gratitude for the sheer brilliance of them and have things sorted by teatime.

And if that fails, that is clearly never the fault of the brexit camp, if only everyone else had just done what they wanted, even the contradictory bits, the world would be better already.

I wonder what it will take for you to ever admit that the failure of brexit is not due to so called Remoaners, but rather the utter incompetence of the actual Brexit camp beyond getting the referendum trough.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:17 AM   #3616
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly the whole brexit has been about fighting the will of the people. The people wanted a closed border with the EU and that means closing the Irish border, to try to keep that border open is spitting in the face of democracy.
Why is it always called the 'Irish Border'?

It's the UK Border.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:32 AM   #3617
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why is it always called the 'Irish Border'?

It's the UK Border.
Exactly it is the land border with the EU and the vote was to take control of it. That is what the people voted for, it is clearly what they want.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:13 PM   #3618
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It will be interesting to see if Boris manages to do it - assuming the remoaners allow him to try. Seems some remoaners, Amber Rudd?, are so keen to keep their cabinet jobs that they don't mind pretending to embrace 'no deal', for a while longer yet...
We may have something we agree on. I think a lot of MPs, whether ostensible Leavers or Remainers, bend with the wind as it suits their careers. A shabby lot. What's that quote? They haven't lost their consciences, they've forgotten where they put them. Politique politiciens.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:18 PM   #3619
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I see Jo Swinson has been elected the new leader of the Liberal Democrats. I wonder how many of the Lib Dems will demand a second election because they're not happy with the outcome of this first one?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:43 PM   #3620
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I see Jo Swinson has been elected the new leader of the Liberal Democrats. I wonder how many of the Lib Dems will demand a second election because they're not happy with the outcome of this first one?
A good question. After all the LDs were assured beforehand it was a non-binding advisory vote. No wait, am I thinking of something else?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:55 PM   #3621
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It will be interesting to see if Boris manages to do it - assuming the remoaners allow him to try. Seems some remoaners, Amber Rudd?, are so keen to keep their cabinet jobs that they don't mind pretending to embrace 'no deal', for a while longer yet...
The public don't want no deal. Interesting if he thinks his job is to deliver something vote leave specifically said wouldn't happen.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:24 PM   #3622
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The public don't want no deal. Interesting if he thinks his job is to deliver something vote leave specifically said wouldn't happen.
Now you are just being unfair. No one before the referendum could have thought the EU wouldn't give us all the benefits of membership at zero cost and allow us to ignore all EU regulations and so on. I can't think of one person who spoke out prior to the referendum that suggested we couldn't have our cake and eat it. It's a bit rich now claiming you had this miraculous ability to predict the future! Should have spoke up at the time.....
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:44 PM   #3623
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
A good question. After all the LDs were assured beforehand it was a non-binding advisory vote. No wait, am I thinking of something else?
You must be. The government, as you should well know, sent out a leaflet to every household in the country before the referendum. The leaflet advised that leaving the EU would most likely mean leaving the single market and customs union. It carried the immortal words:

THIS IS YOUR DECISION. THE GOVERNMENT WILL IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU DECIDE.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:15 PM   #3624
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You must be. The government, as you should well know, sent out a leaflet to every household in the country before the referendum. The leaflet advised that leaving the EU would most likely mean leaving the single market and customs union. It carried the immortal words:

THIS IS YOUR DECISION. THE GOVERNMENT WILL IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU DECIDE.
Oh a bullet point on a scrap of paper.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:16 PM   #3625
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You must be. The government, as you should well know, sent out a leaflet to every household in the country before the referendum. The leaflet advised that leaving the EU would most likely mean leaving the single market and customs union. It carried the immortal words:

THIS IS YOUR DECISION. THE GOVERNMENT WILL IMPLEMENT WHAT YOU DECIDE.
The vote leave leaflet said we would have free trade with the EU. Either the vote was leaving the EU, in which case a deal where we leave the EU but remain in the customs union and single market, and pay far more than we do now would-be compatable with that vote. Alternatively you look beyond the simple vote and consider the promises, in which case the Gvt must deliver every promise or have another referendum.

Take your pick.

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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:03 PM   #3626
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I pick the government. It was the government that promised to implement the democratic result - not a mere campaign team. You expect all campaigns to lie, and both sides did - but if you can't believe a government's promise to the electorate on such an important decision then democracy will inevitably suffer.

Last edited by ceptimus; 22nd July 2019 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:33 PM   #3627
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So demand David Cameron do what he promised, and I'll keep demanding Vote Leave do what they promised.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:40 PM   #3628
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
How apt. The cricket team repeatedly failed to get a majority of runs in the final.

LIKE


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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:28 PM   #3629
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I pick the government. It was the government that promised to implement the democratic result - not a mere campaign team. You expect all campaigns to lie, and both sides did - but if you can't believe a government's promise to the electorate on such an important decision then democracy will inevitably suffer.
What if I told you...

*beat*

...the campaign team and the government are the same people.

*does the mind blown thing*
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Old 22nd July 2019, 08:42 PM   #3630
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
What if I told you...

*beat*

...the campaign team and the government are the same people.

*does the mind blown thing*
Then you'd be wrong. The main campaign teams (both sides) each contained members of the government, as well as opposition MPs and people who weren't primarily politicians.

The government was a separate thing: it recommended supporting remain, but then stood back during the campaign period "so as not to jepardize party unity."

If you want a sporting analogy, you can view the government as a referee: the referee admitted that she supported one side before the match began, but then said she would try to referee impartially for the duration of the match, and promised that the winning side would be presented with the prize.

Last edited by ceptimus; 22nd July 2019 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 10:10 PM   #3631
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Then you'd be wrong. The main campaign teams (both sides) each contained members of the government, as well as opposition MPs and people who weren't primarily politicians.

The government was a separate thing: it recommended supporting remain, but then stood back during the campaign period "so as not to jepardize party unity."

If you want a sporting analogy, you can view the government as a referee: the referee admitted that she supported one side before the match began, but then said she would try to referee impartially for the duration of the match, and promised that the winning side would be presented with the prize.
I understand that in principle there's this compartmentalization of responsibilities one must have when fulfilling different functions.

I also know what I've observed in the real world.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:25 PM   #3632
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I pick the government. It was the government that promised to implement the democratic result - not a mere campaign team. You expect all campaigns to lie, and both sides did - but if you can't believe a government's promise to the electorate on such an important decision then democracy will inevitably suffer.
So why have you previously objected so strongly to leaving the EU whilst remaining in the single market and customs union? That would clearly implement the decision in the referendum. Why do you hate democracy?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:40 PM   #3633
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
There won't be a motion of no confidence and if there was BJ would win it. BJ would also win a GE anyway.
That's why I added the qualification about Labour. If they were even half-way sensible and likeable, they would romp in a GE over the fat mop-head.

Quote:
The idea that BJ is a liability for the Tories is a nonsense. He's the most popular and well known politician in the UK. He might be incompetent but when did that ever matter?
Well, Hitler was the most well-known German in the UK at one point. Didn't make him liked or even popular.

That is to say, my question was about what happens after BJ goes into Number 10. Of course he's incompetent. And Brexit is a great big urgent Gordian knot that doesn't even understand. So surely there will come a time in the very near future that it will be obvious that BJ would be more use as a doorstop at the back of the house, and someone vaguely intelligent should be at the wheel instead.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 12:34 AM   #3634
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That's why I added the qualification about Labour. If they were even half-way sensible and likeable, they would romp in a GE over the fat mop-head.

Well, Hitler was the most well-known German in the UK at one point. Didn't make him liked or even popular.

That is to say, my question was about what happens after BJ goes into Number 10. Of course he's incompetent. And Brexit is a great big urgent Gordian knot that doesn't even understand. So surely there will come a time in the very near future that it will be obvious that BJ would be more use as a doorstop at the back of the house, and someone vaguely intelligent should be at the wheel instead.
The trouble is that it doesn't matter that he's a useless Prime Minister, he's a tousle-haired toff with an agreeable TV persona - which will be enough to get the Conservative Party reelected.

This is especially true if the Labour Party is led by Jeremy Corbyn (or similar nonentity who can be so easily demonised by the right-wing press).

The real core of the problem is that there are only two possible outcomes - no Deal or no Brexit. Any Brexit deal will fail to get majority support in Parliament or the country:
  • Theresa May's deal is about as hard a Brexit as you can have without it being a no-deal and even this couldn't get the support of the ERG
  • A deal which resulted in leaving but remaining in the Customs Union would fail to get through because it would be mostly rejected by Remainers and utterly rejected by the majoirty of the Conservative Party
  • EEA membership would have the same problem

It doesn't matter how intelligent the Prime Minister is, it's no-deal or no-Brexit. The former is only supporter by a small minority but is the political default. The latter may just have the support of the majority of the UK population but cannot be delivered politically.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:14 AM   #3635
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I see Jo Swinson has been elected the new leader of the Liberal Democrats. I wonder how many of the Lib Dems will demand a second election because they're not happy with the outcome of this first one?
Well, let's see. The LibDem vote was for two clear choices, this person, or that person, rather than a vague "all things to all people" option and a clear option...Leave (how? on what terms? etc etc) or Remain.

And Jo won with 2/3rds of the votes, so not the "narrow margin meaning a rerun" ((c) Nigel Farage 2016) that we saw in 2016.

In other words, a load of old cobblers that fails to draw any comparison between the two events due to stark differences. Great Work! You should be on the Brexit negotiating team...
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:15 AM   #3636
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
That's why I added the qualification about Labour. If they were even half-way sensible and likeable, they would romp in a GE over the fat mop-head. p
No they wouldn't because as I keep saying BJ is the most popular politician in the UK

Quote:
Well, Hitler was the most well-known German in the UK at one point. Didn't make him liked or even popular.
I don't know if he was liked or popular at the time with the German people but BJ is. All the polls tell us that.

Quote:
That is to say, my question was about what happens after BJ goes into Number 10. Of course he's incompetent. And Brexit is a great big urgent Gordian knot that doesn't even understand. So surely there will come a time in the very near future that it will be obvious that BJ would be more use as a doorstop at the back of the house, and someone vaguely intelligent should be at the wheel instead.
Well that would suggest a level of interest in politics and sensible decision making that the UK people have so far failed to demonstrate. It's a bit like Trump not being fit to govern... but there he is.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:54 AM   #3637
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Shows what a total liar Theresa May was - she said, over and over again, that, "No deal is better than a bad deal", knowing that she'd chosen her cabinet and ministers stuffed full of remainers who were not prepared to countenance 'no deal' under any circumstances.
Please post a list of both Leavers and Remainers - and a timeline of their appointment - to demonstrate this claim.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 01:55 AM   #3638
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No they wouldn't because as I keep saying BJ is the most popular politician in the UK
And he has been for some time, although Ed Balls briefly knocked him off top spot when he (Ed) performed Gangnam Style on Strictly

As Dr Martin Luther King Jr. said...

Quote:
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by how popular they are on reality TV shows

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I don't know if he was liked or popular at the time with the German people but BJ is. All the polls tell us that.
And cannily, because the character he plays is a tousle-haired, absent minded toff, political failure and stupidity are already priced in

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well that would suggest a level of interest in politics and sensible decision making that the UK people have so far failed to demonstrate. It's a bit like Trump not being fit to govern... but there he is.
....and to be honest, as a lifelong Labour supporter and voter, I wouldn't know who to vote for at an upcoming election:
  • Labour - and vote in favour of Brexit - no thanks
  • Conservative or Brexit Party aren't worth even considering
  • LibDem, and see my chosen party limp in third or fourth
  • Plaid, Green or some other fringe (in a FPTP GE, different story in a proportional European election) party
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Old 23rd July 2019, 02:25 AM   #3639
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And he has been for some time, although Ed Balls briefly knocked him off top spot when he (Ed) performed Gangnam Style on Strictly

As Dr Martin Luther King Jr. said...






And cannily, because the character he plays is a tousle-haired, absent minded toff, political failure and stupidity are already priced in



....and to be honest, as a lifelong Labour supporter and voter, I wouldn't know who to vote for at an upcoming election:
  • Labour - and vote in favour of Brexit - no thanks
  • Conservative or Brexit Party aren't worth even considering
  • LibDem, and see my chosen party limp in third or fourth
  • Plaid, Green or some other fringe (in a FPTP GE, different story in a proportional European election) party
Next election probably will be too late to do anything about Brexit anyway and given most seats are incredibly safe for whoever is in them it probably wouldn't matter who you voted for anyway.

I'd probably vote Plaid just to given the Union Jack wavers a bit of a scare.
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Old 23rd July 2019, 02:51 AM   #3640
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And cannily, because the character he plays is a tousle-haired, absent minded toff, political failure and stupidity are already priced in
Jeremy Vine tells a revealing story about being a host at an award ceremony where Boris was giving the after dinner speech. Boris arrived minutes before he was due on stage apparently unprepared and unaware of where he was or what role he was supposed to play. When told he was there to make a speech in about 2 minutes he borrowed a pen and wrote five words on the back of a menu, which he promptly left on the table, went up and delivered an improvised speech that despite a few errors and forgetting the punchline to the closing shaggy dog story was well received. He then left with his reputation as an orator intact and his reputation for thinking on his feet enhanced.

Vine was participating in another event, about three years later which also had Boris Johnson as speaker, again he was late, and Vine got to watch the entire performance again, the last minute rush, the surprise at being speaker, borrowed pen, 5 words on the back of a menu and the exact same speech, word for word, mistake for mistake, incomplete shaggy dog story and all. It was a routine.

To be fair, it's a very good trick and must impress the audience who think they're present for a unique event while allowing him to turn up anywhere with no prior preparation required. Boris has made quite a career from performing scripts as improvisation (HiGNFY), he's also dedicated to ignoring questions and turning back to his preprepared remarks when dealing with reporters. But being an entertainer will not cut it as PM and he's shown a marked disregard for the details that we will rely on him being on top of.
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