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Old 18th April 2019, 08:39 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Then why is there no opposite force observed on the scale?
Because that's not an analogous system.

Newtonian mechanics defines its terms precisely. A "particle" is that upon which elementary forces act, and which exhibits unary reactions. A "system" is a collection of particles related by mechanics described in the laws of motion and other physical laws. We may reckon some of the physical phenomena of mechanics in terms of net effects, summed across the system. We can also describe different values for those same properties confined to their behavior within the system. Until you understand this, you cannot properly reason your way through Newtonian problems.

A mass on a scale in a gravity field describes a system composed of the mass, the scale, and the Earth. When you lift the weight off the scale, you have introduced a force that is external to the system. There is no expectation that momentum will be conserved in that frame of reference. In a different frame of reference, the weight, the scale, the Earth, and you comprise a larger system. If you lift the weight off the scale, the net momentum of that system remains the same despite the velocity and position information of particles in that system having changed. There is no expectation that momentum will be conserved among all particles in a portion of the system. That is, how you specify the system is of utmost importance.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:39 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
And your opinion means what exactly? Why should we believe you over... like literally everyone else on the planet?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:40 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
Your logical fallacy is "argument from personal incredulity."
Quote:
personal incredulity
Because you found something difficult to understand, or are unaware of how it works, you made out like it's probably not true.

See also "No one I know voted for Nixon."
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:41 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Have you seen a rocket go into space?
See my previous statements. I have designed and built objects that were launched into space on rockets, although you are trying to apply the solopsist argument that I only saw it leave the ground and vanish into the sky. However, once those objects were in space, I was able to use their incorporated rocket propulsion systems to effect changes in their motion that I was able to confirm from the ground by tracking mechanisms independent of NASA. The observed movements conform to the prediction of Newtonian mechanics, including the third law of motion.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:42 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
But answer the question: does the exhaust from a rocket expand equally in all directions?

Any chance of an answer to this question, Gingervytes?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:42 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
Do tell. Where have you seen them go?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:43 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Do you have a simple experiment to show what you say is true. I have already shown that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Now it is your turn provide evidence
Blow up a balloon. Hold the neck of the balloon so that the air is trapped. Now release the neck. What happens? In the atmosphere, the balloon flies all about. What do you suppose would happen if that balloon was in the vacuum of space?

Is there any important difference between a balloon and a rocket?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:43 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Yes there was a scale in the video. You just choose to ignore it
I was not referring to your incorrect video, but an example on real world physics. I've watched that video some time ago, so don't tell me I haven't watched it. And yes it is totally flawed from the a physics understanding. You have been suckered into believing the video is correct, or you are using it to promote your disbelief in rockets travelling into space.
One of the posters asked you a question, what are all those dishes pointing at if it isn't satellites placed into orbit, or how does GPS work.
You aren't a flat Earther by chance, because from what I've read it seems like it. We should go into that stupid idea as it isn't on task with your OP, just curious.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:44 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
There's a two-player Cheese Shop game in The Brand New Monty Python Bok, in which one player - the customer - asks for various different types of cheese, and the other - the shopkeeper - has to think up a new excuse as to why he hasn't got it.

Since a pointless digression can only improve this thread, there was an amusing comic in the Order of the Stick webcomic, in which the party fighter went to a weapon shop to buy a polearm, and every one he asked for was out of stock for various reasons.

"Glaive?"
"Guisarme?"
"Glaive-Guisarme?"
"Guisarme-Glaive?"
"Glaive-Glaive-Glaive-Guisarme-Glaive?
"I think you're drifting into another sketch, sir."
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:44 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All the rockets ive seen, they donít appear to go into space
Because the physics don't allow for it, or because of limitations on your ability to observe? You seem to have conflated your inability to observe a condition with proof that the condition itself cannot arise.

Again, the laws of motion are universal. You have agreed that fluids have mass, and therefore that the motion of fluids must have momentum. Newton's third law applies to systems in which that momentum is a factor. You have attempted to evade that by defining a rocket as a system that does not include its propellants. I have corrected that by giving you the appropriate definition of a system according to Newton, such that the law holds. So far you seem unable to explain, under the proper definitions, why Newton's third law should not hold for rockets.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:46 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Do tell. Where have you seen them go?
I too am interested in learning where the rockets I fly go, if not into space. Everything about the system, over which I and my colleagues have complete control, behaves as if rockets work in space. What is happening instead? Who is making it happen? How are they making it happen?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:49 AM   #292
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Few years back I was on a Ticonderoga Class Cruiser that fired a missile into space to take out a satellite.

What the hell did we shoot down? Now I'm worried.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:49 AM   #293
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Still waiting on an answer to this question:

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It is my profession to do just that. Are you comfortable calling me a liar to my face?
Are you comfortable enough with your beliefs and the lines of reasoning behind them to call me a liar, and the few others in this thread who also claim to send things into space?

Don't be bashful.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:50 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Again, the laws of motion are universal. You have agreed that fluids have mass, and therefore that the motion of fluids must have momentum. Newton's third law applies to systems in which that momentum is a factor. You have attempted to evade that by defining a rocket as a system that does not include its propellants. I have corrected that by giving you the appropriate definition of a system according to Newton, such that the law holds. So far you seem unable to explain, under the proper definitions, why Newton's third law should not hold for rockets.
Personally, I'd like to know the exact definition of the point at which a sunstance becomes a fluid, and therefore not subject to Newton's Third Law. Plenty of materials (glass not included!!!!!!!!) flow under sufficient shear, and so are technically very high viscosity fluids. I want to know precisely how runny the Camembert has to get before it doesn't obey Newton's Third Law.

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Old 18th April 2019, 08:50 AM   #295
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Also how do things like GPS and Satellite Radio and Cell Phones work if there's no space? Basically any over the horizon... anything. Or are they all myths too?
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:50 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Few years back I was on a Ticonderoga Class Cruiser that fired a missile into space to take out a satellite.
You were part of that mission? Awesome!

Quote:
What the hell did we shoot down? Now I'm worried.
You should be. The people on shore ever only saw you leave port. They have no reason to believe you actually went to sea, therefore no reason to believe that oceangoing vessels are possible.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:52 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also how do things like GPS and Satellite Radio and Cell Phones work if there's no space? Basically any over the horizon... anything. Or are they all myths too?
He has already answered this. He doesn't know how they are done. He speculates there exists technology that he hasn't seen and can't describe that achieves these effects. In other words, magic.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:53 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You were part of that mission? Awesome!
Yeah sadly I wasn't on the actual shooting ship, but I was stationed on a ship that did some of the tracking and Comm support and we later went through several simulation runs of the same scenario.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:55 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah...
Still a great experience. Welcome to the Liars' Club.
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Old 18th April 2019, 08:58 AM   #300
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And the thing is I spend a lot of my navel career patching into satellite communications. I was an IT it was one of the main parts of my job. Satellite access request, antenna maintenance, solar weather reports.

Kind of wonder know what I was doing all those years.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:06 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the thing is I spend a lot of my navel career patching into satellite communications. I was an IT it was one of the main parts of my job. Satellite access request, antenna maintenance, solar weather reports.

Kind of wonder know what I was doing all those years.
Waving your hands and performing magic so it seems.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:07 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And the thing is I spend a lot of my navel career patching into satellite communications. I was an IT...
My brother-in-law did that for years on the Perry-class frigates.

Quote:
Kind of wonder know what I was doing all those years.
Our poster doesn't know, but the typical explanation is balloons and airplanes pretending to be satellites. I'm hoping he makes some specific claims by way of explanation, but he's already signaled that he probably won't. Which makes his initial bluster at this forum a little funny. He claimed at one point that belief in NASA and space flight was akin to a religious belief. But now when pressed to explain the effects of spacefaring, he's essentially making an appeal to religion: "I don't know how it's done, but I want to believe it's not done by ordinary means; I have faith -- but no evidence -- that somehow, someone figured out how to do it."
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:10 AM   #303
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Also think about the political implications of this. For the entire space industry to be wrong... literally everybody has to be in on it. The US, the Russian, the European Space Agency, India, Japan, China... all have to be in on it completely and practically every country on Earth is gonna have to be in on it at least a little.

So basically all politics is a lie because all these countries really secretly behind the scenes get along enough to keep perpetrating this myth.

So basically we've also solved world peace, as all the fighting and political saber rattling has to be for show because no one is gonna risk one of the other "LOL Space Faring LOL" nations from getting mad enough to let the cat out of the bag.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:19 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also think about the political implications of this. For the entire space industry to be wrong... literally everybody has to be in on it.
He's already invoked magic and religion, so at this point why not? Literally everyone is in on the space scam -- except for a few people on YouTube.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:25 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He's already invoked magic and religion, so at this point why not? Literally everyone is in on the space scam -- except for a few people on YouTube.
No it's just funny to me that the "implications" of the Conspiracy are bigger and a better story then just the conspiracy theory.

Why if "All of modern history, at the very, very least since the dawn of the space program (and that would bring World War 2 in questions since so much of the space program is a direct off shoot of missile and rocket development of that conflict, but if you call World War 2 in question you have to call World War 1 into question since they are directly linked conflicts, but World War 1 happened largely because of the complicated social-political structure of treaties and agreements brought about after the Napoleonic Wars and so forth and so forth back to the dawn history basically) has basically been a complete and total lie because politics we know it can't exist because rockets don't exist" focus on the "Rockets don't exist" part of that?
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 18th April 2019 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:37 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I donít think space travel exists, but who know what other technology is out there. By they certainly do no go into space with rockets
Iíve personally built (as part of a team), integrated, tested, observed the launch of, and operated spacecraft. Your claim is observed to be wrong.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:42 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Pressure pushes toward least resistance. The bullet provides resistance. Why donít you make a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force?
Easy. Take a toy balloon. Blow it up. Release it.

Hans
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:42 AM   #308
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When do we get our shill hush money?

Also how does everyone categorize their shill hush money for tax purposes? I don't want to pay anymore taxes on my shill hush money then I have to.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:44 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
When do we get our shill hush money?

Also how does everyone categorize their shill hush money for tax purposes? I don't want to pay anymore taxes on my shill hush money then I have to.
Don't report it, hush money is off balance sheet.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:44 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Easy. Take a toy balloon. Blow it up. Release it.

Hans
Hans, you are not following. Gingervytes asked for a simple experiment. Yours has too many steps.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:45 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
Don't report it, hush money is off balance sheet.
Listen I'll happily face down the combined might of every supposed space faring nation in the world when they come to silence me.

But the IRS? Are you crazy?
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:50 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I want to know precisely how runny the Camembert has to get before it doesn't obey Newton's Third Law.

Dave
A bit runnier than you'd like it.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:51 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Listen I'll happily face down the combined might of every supposed space faring nation in the world when they come to silence me.

But the IRS? Are you crazy?
If you don't receive your check by the 15th, then contact the Treasury, not the IRS. I know the IRD is part of the Treasury, but they deal with income not outflows.

IIRC I watched the radar image of that test, blowing up the satellite that was in orbit your rocket.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:55 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Any chance of an answer to this question, Gingervytes?
I already did. Pressure expand to least resistance and low pressure. Space provides no resistance and is near zero pressure
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:55 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
... The people on shore ever only saw you leave port. They have no reason to believe you actually went to sea, therefore no reason to believe that oceangoing vessels are possible.
This seems a perfect analogy.

We know that ships work inshore because we can all watch them sailing. But imagine if your instinctive belief was that they only stay afloat because when the ship settles down into the water, it increases the pressure between its hull and the seabed, and that gives the hull something to push against which holds the ship up. If it sailed beyond the continental shelf into deep ocean there would be nothing to push against and the ship would just sink.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:58 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
We know that ships work inshore because we can all watch them sailing. But imagine if your instinctive belief was that they only stay afloat because when the ship settles down into the water, it increases the pressure between its hull and the seabed, and that gives the hull something to push against which holds the ship up. If it sailed beyond the continental shelf into deep ocean there would be nothing to push against and the ship would just sink.
WHO TOLD YOU THAT!

I mean... that totally not how it works and it's certainly not true that all the Navies in the world are just party boats that go about an hours away from shore, drink cheap beer for a few months, and come back in and tell you about all the cool wars we've been fighting. No sirree certainly not true. *Whistles*
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:59 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I already did. Pressure expand to least resistance and low pressure. Space provides no resistance and is near zero pressure
But the jet of gas is still directional and will propel the rocket/balloon/whatever in a certain direction.
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Old 18th April 2019, 09:59 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
I already did. Pressure expand to least resistance and low pressure. Space provides no resistance and is near zero pressure
No, you didn't answer the question. The question was in what direction the rocket exhaust expands, not why it expands. I think your insistence on answering a different question is evidence that you know the implications of the correct answer for your claims. The direction in which a rocket exhaust expands matters.
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Old 18th April 2019, 10:01 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss

Proven right here that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force
Jerry Sprockets is no match for Cogswell and his mighty Cogs!!

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I AGREE
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Old 18th April 2019, 10:02 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, you didn't answer the question. The question was in what direction the rocket exhaust expands, not why it expands. I think your insistence on answering a different question is evidence that you know the implications of the correct answer for your claims. The direction in which a rocket exhaust expands matters.
In the direction of low pressure lol. Campfire smoke pressure moves up because there is low pressure at higher altitude
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