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Tags donald trump , Mueller investigation , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , William Barr

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Old 16th July 2019, 03:26 PM   #2561
CapelDodger
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Those of us who were actually paying attention were already pretty sure that Assange/Wikileaks were in cahoots with the Russians.
I think it's worth repeating that the Assange-Putin connection was widely accepted, for very good reasons, long before Trump became anything more than a US TV celebrity.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:54 PM   #2562
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Try to comprehend the texts you read.
Try to comprehend that your hostility does not belong in this discussion so please do kindly shove it...

Quote:
The source of the claim that Mueller requested the postponing is given as "House democrats". A factual claim. The claim you claim I omitted is an opinion. It just "also appeared" to Democrats if we read the sentence benevolently. If not, it's just the opinion of the author of the text. Value in both cases: zero.
So basically the source is: people with actual knowledge of what's going on

The hearing is being expanded. The hearing was then delayed.

I find that far more credible than your insane web of random information with little squiggly lines drawn everywhere. I give that a value of: less than zero.

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Old 16th July 2019, 03:55 PM   #2563
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Just witness ChildhoodEmpress... tries attacking the CNN article, and does so by referring to some "journalist" that probably nobody here has heard of, who has her work published in such high quality locations as GlobalResearch.ca, and seems to have written a book on astrology. Yet to her that is somehow this person is somehow someone who's opinion actually matters.

I did not "try to attack" the CNN article, I skimmed it for a minute and gave you what you need to know. In addition to it I linked Caitlin's article (because it just showed up in my newsreader which I checked after sending my post), which gives several tons of links you could inquire without ad hom-ing her.

And it is far from the first time I linked to her articles (she is just so superior to the pseudo-skeptical mindset that watching the reactions is always amusing), it is also far from the first time that ad homs followed. And believe it or not, you weren't the first to point to the astrology book she once wrote. Or the second. Or the third. One time I answered that by linking the article she herself wrote on that, and that was enough. You can search my posts if you like.

Reading your reply I just thought "I could program that bot in half an hour".

Try to be more original next timet.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:58 PM   #2564
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Try to comprehend that your hostility does not belong in this discussion so please do kindly shove it...

You wasted my time with something you could have found yourself in a minute (the court order) and then continued to passive-aggressively "I love how you...." bother me. It's you who has to change the tone, buddy. People get back from me what they send out.
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Old 16th July 2019, 05:34 PM   #2565
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You wasted my time with something you could have found yourself in a minute (the court order) and then continued to passive-aggressively "I love how you...." bother me. It's you who has to change the tone, buddy. People get back from me what they send out.
Actually, that's not true. I asked you a question. What I got back was BS.
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Old 16th July 2019, 05:40 PM   #2566
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Actually, that's not true. I asked you a question. What I got back was BS something that went way over my head although the quintessence was right in the headline. And it's not that I cared about the answer anyway - as I told you last time I just want to troll hahaha got you again.

FTFY. I guess this is where our "conversations" end, Cabbage.
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Old 16th July 2019, 06:02 PM   #2567
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
FTFY. I guess this is where our "conversations" end, Cabbage.
Wow, more BS!

It's like she can't post anything else! LOL!
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Old 16th July 2019, 06:21 PM   #2568
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
FTFY. I guess this is where our "conversations" end, Cabbage.
Oh, and failing to fall for the propaganda you post doesn't imply it "went way over my head".....

......it simply means I'm not a gullible sucker.

Sorry to disappoint you!
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Old 16th July 2019, 10:21 PM   #2569
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Never underestimate the ability of Trump supporters and the like to ignore evidence. As I have stated before, you could publish the video of Trump giving oral sex to Putin as he personally accesses the Democratic email servers (and Assange lovingly looks on) and it still wouldn't be enough for some people.

Just witness ChildhoodEmpress... tries attacking the CNN article, and does so by referring to some "journalist" that probably nobody here has heard of, who has her work published in such high quality locations as GlobalResearch.ca, and seems to have written a book on astrology. Yet to her that is somehow this person is somehow someone who's opinion actually matters.
I see it like this

Debating with Trumpistas is like playing a game of "Jenga" but one with special rules - you are trying to make the tower fall, they are trying to keep it up.

The tower is the whole imaginary Trump construct they believe in
- what a great job Trump does
- no collusion
- no obstruction
- not a racist or a white supremacist
- biggest and best at everything

Your turn is when you provide and/or show them new evidence - that's you pulling a piece out of the tower.

Their turn is to claim that you haven't pulled out any pieces.

But you know, that if you keep pulling those pieces out, the tower is going to fall.
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Old 16th July 2019, 10:37 PM   #2570
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

But you know, that if you keep pull the pieces out, the tower is going to fall.
according to Trumpistas, a jumbled pile of pieces is the best, most beautiful tower of all, and anyway, Obama's and President HRCs towers had some holes, too.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:11 PM   #2571
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
All the time Assange was holed up in the Ecuadorian Embassy, he was under surveillance, and they were reading his mail and eavesdropping on his communications.

The result is stunning.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/15/p...nts/index.html
Stunning and disgusting. It's depressing to read.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:26 PM   #2572
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I don't want to hear anymore ******** about how "neutral" Wikileaks is anymore. I mean if it wasn't clear already, right.
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Old 16th July 2019, 11:31 PM   #2573
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I don't want to hear anymore ******** about how "neutral" Wikileaks is anymore. I mean if it wasn't clear already, right.
Did someone here say that?
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:17 AM   #2574
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
You wasted my time
I'd call that karma.
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Old 17th July 2019, 07:03 AM   #2575
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
It's like she can't post anything else! LOL!
Not where someone might be checking.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Did someone here say that?
I think it started out fairly neutral, but after it was clear the US wanted him in jail and Russia wanted to help him for their own ends, how long could that neutrality have lasted?

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Old 19th July 2019, 01:29 AM   #2576
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And we should care what Caitlin Johnstone says, why?

Is this the same Caitlin Johnstone that wrote "The Complete Book of Astrology"?

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Book.../dp/1741578264

Don't let that affect your estimate of her integrity and dedication to the truth.

She's been quite adamant that she only wrote the book because she needed the money.

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Old 22nd July 2019, 06:06 AM   #2577
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With Mueller testifying live and on TV this week, The PDJT is going to have to do something extraordinary to attempt a distraction this time. Start a war, maybe?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 06:38 AM   #2578
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
With Mueller testifying live and on TV this week, The PDJT is going to have to do something extraordinary to attempt a distraction this time. Start a war, maybe?
He could drop the N-bomb...
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:54 AM   #2579
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Trump Tweets

Highly conflicted Robert Mueller should not be given another bite at the apple. In the end it will be bad for him and the phony Democrats in Congress who have done nothing but waste time on this ridiculous Witch Hunt. Result of the Mueller Report, NO COLLUSION, NO OBSTRUCTION!...

....But the questions should be asked, why were all of Clinton’s people given immunity, and why were the text messages of Peter S and his lover, Lisa Page, deleted and destroyed right after they left Mueller, and after we requested them(this is Illegal)?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:24 AM   #2580
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Another bite at the apple? Wouldn't that mean he's starting the investigation over again?

I'm trying to figure out what the "best case scenario" is from testifying in front of these committees. In my heart of hearts I hope they use the information to strengthen our voting processes and equipment. I don't want this to be a petty soundbyte competition.

What I'd like to learn is, in no particular order:

Why have so many investigations been closed since the report was issued?

Does Mueller believe those investigations should have been closed, and what evidence was used to begin the investigations in the first place?

Was there any pressure by Barr to limit the investigation after taking over?

Lastly, I would like the details of the obstruction laid out in layman's terms so that the average individual can understand what happened. Put a rest to that "No Obstruction" nonsense.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:31 AM   #2581
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I'm most curious about the Counterintelligence side of the Mueller report: from what we know as a fact, from lawsuits, reports and Mueller, it that the Intelligence vulnerabilities of the Election Systems, Social Media and the Trump Campaign were unprecedented and monumental. There is a lot that requires investigating, not in order to get a conviction, but to prevent another case like this.
But the IC has no one it can trust to report the results to, since Republicans in the Gang of Eight have leaked their confidential briefings to subjects of the investigation, i.e. Trump and his Team.
The FBI CI is in exactly the same boat as Mueller: all they can do is collect evidence and wait for Congress (or the next President) to circumvent Trump so that they can do their job without having to report their results to the target of their investigation.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:44 AM   #2582
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Another bite at the apple? Wouldn't that mean he's starting the investigation over again?
Maybe Trump believes that this is exactly what they're going to do.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 11:50 AM   #2583
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Maybe Trump believes that this is exactly what they're going to do.
That could be true, he is a moron.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm most curious about the Counterintelligence side of the Mueller report: from what we know as a fact, from lawsuits, reports and Mueller, it that the Intelligence vulnerabilities of the Election Systems, Social Media and the Trump Campaign were unprecedented and monumental. There is a lot that requires investigating, not in order to get a conviction, but to prevent another case like this.
But the IC has no one it can trust to report the results to, since Republicans in the Gang of Eight have leaked their confidential briefings to subjects of the investigation, i.e. Trump and his Team.
The FBI CI is in exactly the same boat as Mueller: all they can do is collect evidence and wait for Congress (or the next President) to circumvent Trump so that they can do their job without having to report their results to the target of their investigation.
I agree in that I think the most important thing to get from all of this is how can we stop it in the future? What do we have to do to "shore up the defenses"?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:02 PM   #2584
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
What I'd like to learn is, in no particular order:

Why have so many investigations been closed since the report was issued?

Does Mueller believe those investigations should have been closed, and what evidence was used to begin the investigations in the first place?

Was there any pressure by Barr to limit the investigation after taking over?

Lastly, I would like the details of the obstruction laid out in layman's terms so that the average individual can understand what happened. Put a rest to that "No Obstruction" nonsense.
Personally I would like Mueller to answer one question:

"If you were a prosecutor, and Trump were not president, and you were presented with the evidence as provided in the report, would you have prosecuted him."

You can point out all the evidence you want, but it will always leave the republicans with an 'out'.... "We don't think it warrants impeachment/laying charges". Answering the above question would make it pretty much impossible for the republicans to hide.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:11 PM   #2585
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Personally I would like Mueller to answer one question:

"If you were a prosecutor, and Trump were not president, and you were presented with the evidence as provided in the report, would you have prosecuted him."

You can point out all the evidence you want, but it will always leave the republicans with an 'out'.... "We don't think it warrants impeachment/laying charges". Answering the above question would make it pretty much impossible for the republicans to hide.
Why do you think Mueller will change his answer (I assume you expect a change or there would be no point in asking). He is still a DOJ employee. (ETA that turns out to be wrong I think, but it still seems his reasons for his prior answer would apply).
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:12 PM   #2586
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Personally I would like Mueller to answer one question:

"If you were a prosecutor, and Trump were not president, and you were presented with the evidence as provided in the report, would you have prosecuted him."

You can point out all the evidence you want, but it will always leave the republicans with an 'out'.... "We don't think it warrants impeachment/laying charges". Answering the above question would make it pretty much impossible for the republicans to hide.
For that reason I think Mueller will stay as far away from that question as possible. I know he'll be asked it, but I would expect the most top notch non-answer, answer ever. He stated that the report was his testimony and he refused to make that distinction in the report.

Make no mistake, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm just keeping my expectations exceptionally low.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:13 PM   #2587
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why do you think Mueller will change his answer (I assume you expect a change or there would be no point in asking). He is still a DOJ employee.
No he isn't.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:16 PM   #2588
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Highly conflicted Robert Mueller should not be given another bite at the apple. In the end it will be bad for him and the phony Democrats in Congress who have done nothing but waste time on this ridiculous Witch Hunt. Result of the Mueller Report, NO COLLUSION, NO OBSTRUCTION!...

....But the questions should be asked, why were all of Clinton’s people given immunity, and why were the text messages of Peter S and his lover, Lisa Page, deleted and destroyed right after they left Mueller, and after we requested them(this is Illegal)?
Oh, so many things in that one infantile tweet:

1. Mueller was not 'conflicted'.
2. 'Phony Democrats'? They're not really Democrats?
3. Mueller did not find there was 'no obstruction'.
4. Were ALL of Clinton's people given immunity?
5. Why the childish continued use of the word 'lover' whenever Peter S or Page is mentioned?
6. What evidence is there that their 'emails were destroyed right after they left Mueller'?


The more Trump tweets, the more idiotic he looks.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:16 PM   #2589
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Why do you think Mueller will change his answer (I assume you expect a change or there would be no point in asking). He is still a DOJ employee.
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No he isn't.
While technically true I wonder if he'll have to act in that capacity since that's what he was when the work was being done.

I honestly don't know.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:20 PM   #2590
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No he isn't.
You're right, I thought he had just changed roles in the DOJ but he actually resigned. Not sure that's enough to change his reasoning but we'll see.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:39 PM   #2591
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
Personally I would like Mueller to answer one question:

"If you were a prosecutor, and Trump were not president, and you were presented with the evidence as provided in the report, would you have prosecuted him."
Why do you think Mueller will change his answer (I assume you expect a change or there would be no point in asking). He is still a DOJ employee. (ETA that turns out to be wrong I think, but it still seems his reasons for his prior answer would apply).
Was he ever asked that exact question? Yes, he's pretty evasive for the most part, but I never remember him being presented with that sort of scenario before.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:44 PM   #2592
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Was he ever asked that exact question? Yes, he's pretty evasive for the most part, but I never remember him being presented with that sort of scenario before.
No, he answered it without being asked since it's so obvious.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Mueller
And beyond Department policy we were guided by principles of fairness. It would be unfair to potentially — it would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge.
https://www.vox.com/2019/5/29/186442...rks-transcript
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Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 22nd July 2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 01:43 PM   #2593
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Does it actually matter if we close loopholes to election meddling? To me it feels like the damage has been done. There's a solid 40% of the population brainwashed (brainfilthed?) already, and little if any leadership from the remaining marginally-less-crazy conservatives to throw their support elsewhere. Without massive voter turnout and a whole lotta Rust Belt center-right Democrats coming back to the fold, potus waltzes to another electoral college victory, no?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:12 PM   #2594
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No, he answered it without being asked since it's so obvious.

ETA:


https://www.vox.com/2019/5/29/186442...rks-transcript
I can't speak for Segnosaur, but from my point of view (and what I think might be suggestion from Seg) it really seems like Mueller's reluctance to comment in crimes is directly tied to Trump's position as president. That quote about fairness is a perfect example of that: he seems to be saying that because he didn't believe he could indict the president, the president couldn't defend himself in court, and thus, it wouldn't be fair to say if Trump committed a crime or not.

That's why something like "if Trump weren't president, would you charge him with a crime?" is a valid and important thing to ask Mueller - his answer about whether or not Trump committed crimes could very well be different because the condition removes the protections that have led to his conclusions. As far as I know, he hasn't really addressed anything like it yet, only the position of basically "I can't charge him with a crime, so I don't think it would be fair to say if this stuff was illegal, but here are some things that might be considered crimes if looked at by a party that could charge Trump in a court."
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:20 PM   #2595
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I can't speak for Segnosaur, but from my point of view (and what I think might be suggestion from Seg) it really seems like Mueller's reluctance to comment in crimes is directly tied to Trump's position as president. That quote about fairness is a perfect example of that: he seems to be saying that because he didn't believe he could indict the president, the president couldn't defend himself in court, and thus, it wouldn't be fair to say if Trump committed a crime or not.

That's why something like "if Trump weren't president, would you charge him with a crime?" is a valid and important thing to ask Mueller - his answer about whether or not Trump committed crimes could very well be different because the condition removes the protections that have led to his conclusions. As far as I know, he hasn't really addressed anything like it yet, only the position of basically "I can't charge him with a crime, so I don't think it would be fair to say if this stuff was illegal, but here are some things that might be considered crimes if looked at by a party that could charge Trump in a court."
"That is a hypothetical situation that has no bearing in this hearing."
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:20 PM   #2596
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Does it actually matter if we close loopholes to election meddling? To me it feels like the damage has been done. There's a solid 40% of the population brainwashed (brainfilthed?) already, and little if any leadership from the remaining marginally-less-crazy conservatives to throw their support elsewhere. Without massive voter turnout and a whole lotta Rust Belt center-right Democrats coming back to the fold, potus waltzes to another electoral college victory, no?
I think it make make a huge difference, as long as voter turnout also improved. Maybe that's just me being hopeful, but Trump did lose the popular vote (only 28% of the country or so voted for him), and in the states he actually did win, it was by a small margin, usually smaller than the percentage that voted for third party candidates (ex: 47% Hillary, 48% Trump, 3% Stein). A bigger, more motivated voter base, especially one that might be more conscious about trolls trying to influence them, could easily reverse many Trump states.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:23 PM   #2597
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"That is a hypothetical situation that has no bearing in this hearing."
I mean, yeah, that's about the response I'd expect. But there might be value phrasing the question like that publicly - even an evasive answer provides a nice soundbite that demonstrates Mueller didn't really "exonerate" Trump and was only making a conclusion based on the idea he couldn't charge him with crimes in the first place.

For a lot of the public that probably isn't even aware of the conditions Mueller placed in his conclusion, that could be pretty eye-opening. Hypothetically, of course.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:24 PM   #2598
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
That's why something like "if Trump weren't president, would you charge him with a crime?" is a valid and important thing to ask Mueller - his answer about whether or not Trump committed crimes could very well be different because the condition removes the protections that have led to his conclusions.

But that's exactly the hypothetical he was addressing.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:27 PM   #2599
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
"That is a hypothetical situation that has no bearing in this hearing."
Yup, that's exactly what I see happening.

"I apologize congressperson, I don't want to get into hypothetical situations."
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Old 22nd July 2019, 02:29 PM   #2600
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
But that's exactly the hypothetical he was addressing.
Maybe I'm missing something, but in what way?

As far as I'm aware, Mueller has exclusively commented on Trump's actions as he believes the law currently applies to him (ie, that he can't be indicted, and can't defend himself in court). Are you aware of him commenting about a hypothetical where Trump wasn't president? If not, do you mind explaining how his current statements cover the hypothetical? I'm asking seriously here, I'm not a lawyer and am fully aware I could be wrong, and I also want to make sure I actually understand what you're arguing for.
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