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Old 7th July 2019, 09:20 AM   #481
caveman1917
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I don't think we need to go to such extremes in order to discuss the current happenings in the United States. The Nazis (current and past) were/are very, very bad. The gulags were also very, very bad. Most of the time, when one group decides to lock another group up for wrongthink, things have gotten very, very bad.
It depends, let's consider an example of one of the largest groups (150k) of political prisoners sent to the Gulags, as described in the Black Book of Communism[*]:
Originally Posted by Black Book of Communism
A singular fate was reserved for the Vlasovtsy, the Soviet soldiers who had fought under the Soviet general Andrei Vlasov. Vlasov was the commander of the Second Army who had been taken prisoner by the Germans in July 1942.
On the basis of his anti-Stalinist convictions, General Vlasov agreed to collaborate with the Nazis to free his country from the tyranny of the Bolsheviks. With the support of the German authorities, Vlasov formed a Russian National Committee and trained two divisions of an "Army for the Liberation of Russia." After the defeat of Nazi Germany, the Allies handed over General Vlasov and his officers to the Soviet Union, and they were promptly executed. The soldiers trom Vlasov's army, following an amnesty decree of November 1945, were deported for six years to Siberia, Kazakhstan, and the far north. In early 1946, 148,079 Vlasovtsy, most of them noncommissioned officers, were accused of treason and sent to the gulags.
What other option would you have suggested? Especially considering that the group actively participated in the Holocaust then a 6-year prison sentence doesn't seem all that "very, very bad" to me.

Or another large group (37k) of political prisoners:
Originally Posted by Black Book of Communism
The first occupation of western Ukraine, from September 1939 to June 1941, had brought about the formation of a fairly powerful armed resistance movement, the OUN, or Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists. Members of this organization subsequently enlisted as special troops in SS units to fight Communists and Jews. In July 1944, when the Red Army arrived, the OUN set up a Supreme Council for the Liberation of Ukraine. Roman Shukhovich, the head of the OU N, became commander of the UPA, the Ukrainian insurgent army. According to Ukrainian sources, the UPA had more than 20,000 members by the autumn of 1944. On 31 March 1944, Beria signed an order stipulating that all family members of soldiers in the OUN and UPA were to be arrested and deported to the region of Krasnoyarsk. From February to October 1944, 100,300 civilians (mainly women, children, and old people) were deported under Beria's order. As for the 37,000 soldiers who were taken prisoner during this time, all were sent to the gulags.
What other option would you have suggested? Especially considering that this group didn't just actively participate in the Holocaust but did so with such ferocity and brutality (such as ripping apart babies) that it even made their SS superiors uneasy and they had to intervene to tone it down a bit. A couple of years of hard labour in an attempted re-education effort doesn't seem all that "very, very bad" to me.

* I suppose one advantage of the Black Book of Communism is that it doesn't even attempt to hide its Nazi apologia, whereas other such political propaganda under the guise of historical scholarship usually simply refers to such political inmates as "freedom fighters" or "heroic victims of communist oppression" or something.
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Old 7th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #482
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You're asserting, not arguing. If communists are "as bad as" fascists because of sharing those "relevant qualities" then why isn't the rest of the political spectrum "as bad as" fascists if they also share those "relevant qualities"?
The difference between communists and everybody else on the political spectrum is that murdering millions of your fellow citizens for absolutely no reason is part and parcel of the communist ideology. This has been discussed to death in other threads.
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Old 7th July 2019, 01:04 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
As someone said on twitter, you can't look in a mirror and say "Nazis suck" three times without someone popping up to ask, "What about antifa?"
TFW your brand recognition culminates in "when I say Nazis, you think antifa".
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Old 7th July 2019, 04:15 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Isn't this a No true Scotsman? He votes progressive. He describes his politics as progressive. For sure, he has found a new audience after leaving Evergreen but I hardly see him as anything but a liberal.

You sure about that? Looking what I can find of his recent political activity, it seems less progressive and more libertarian, particularly economically. Doesn't explain why he's been cozying up to the right in the last couple years.

Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Why are we contrasting antifa to the worst and most violent people in our society? What is the purpose of that? You need to raise the bar.

Don't ask me, you're the one who brought it up.

It certainly puts the situation in perspective, however, for those who aren't already fascist apologists and ostriches, and gives the lie in a big and brutal way to their "both sides are the same" rhetorical BS.
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Old 7th July 2019, 04:19 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You sure about that? Looking what I can find of his recent political activity, it seems less progressive and more libertarian, particularly economically. Doesn't explain why he's been cozying up to the right in the last couple years.









Don't ask me, you're the one who brought it up.



It certainly puts the situation in perspective, however, for those who aren't already fascist apologists and ostriches, and gives the lie in a big and brutal way to their "both sides are the same" rhetorical BS.
Luchog, you advocate political violence.

Why should we take your assessment of progressive versus libertarian, except as your idea of where you draw the line between those who you believe deserve violence and those who you believe don't?
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Old 7th July 2019, 04:37 PM   #486
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You sure about that? Looking what I can find of his recent political activity, it seems less progressive and more libertarian, particularly economically. Doesn't explain why he's been cozying up to the right in the last couple years.
To the extent that he's engaging with the right, the explanation seems blindingly obvious and quite mundane: you talk to the people who are willing to listen to you. The right is willing to listen to Bret. It seems the left no longer is. That doesn't mean Bret is actually a right-winger.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:07 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
You sure about that? Looking what I can find of his recent political activity, it seems less progressive and more libertarian, particularly economically. Doesn't explain why he's been cozying up to the right in the last couple years.




Don't ask me, you're the one who brought it up.

It certainly puts the situation in perspective, however, for those who aren't already fascist apologists and ostriches, and gives the lie in a big and brutal way to their "both sides are the same" rhetorical BS.
I did bring that up trying to make the point that they are both illiberal movements. The right-wing movements are far worse, having actually killed people but being less worse than these guys isn't an excuse for their violence or failed ideology. As Ricky Gervais said so well, there are far more options than picking a side between fascists and so-called antifa
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:30 PM   #488
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Joe Biden adds his thoughts and condemns the extrajudicial political violence of antifa:
https://nypost.com/2019/07/06/biden-...list-andy-ngo/
This whole debacle and whether or not you say something about it won't matter at all in terms of winning the primaries but in the general, it will definitely matter. Biden now scores higher than any other candidate in terms of beating Trump in a general. It is still early of course.
https://www.businessinsider.com/bide...ts-2020-2019-7
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A Washington Post/ABC News poll found Biden would lead Trump by 53% to 43% among registered voters who responded as if the election was held today.
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Old 7th July 2019, 06:29 PM   #489
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
The difference between communists and everybody else on the political spectrum is that murdering millions of your fellow citizens for absolutely no reason is part and parcel of the communist ideology. This has been discussed to death in other threads.
Not like the good right wingers who murder people for good reasons? 'Cuz they're different.

Not like the European Caucs who murdered people so they could take their homelands?

But let's not be racist... there's always the good not-communist-at-all Japanese. They only wanted to enslave an entire continent because, well, they could. And the fanatical tribalist leaders in Africa.... Hey, wiping out a tribe you've always competed with for territory? That's a noble goal.

See? Patriots kill "others" for good reasons.... bigotry, racism, greed. Commies kill people they disagree with ideologically. I'm not sure what high ground you're trying to claim here for your fellow travelers on the right.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:25 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
For the record, I believe that all the white-power mental defectives and the kids playing super-hero dress-up should be hung from the same tree.
Why?

The white power mental defectives are an active threat to the US. The other guys, not so much. Why make a bothsidesism about this?
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:28 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Wow, antifa has killed less people than their NAZI opponents have. Now that is a super important and impressive data point! How bad is antifa in this discussion? Well lets compare and contrast them to NAZIs and now we know using that benchmark, by that comparison, they are hardly violent at all really.
I seriously don't understand that point. It makes no sense. "Hey, lets support these guys, they are less violent than NAZIs!"
Comparing them to Nazis is all you guys ever do. I'm pointing out the fact that Antifa are - in fact - far less violent than Nazis, but you guys still drone on about how they are just like Nazis.
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Old 8th July 2019, 12:48 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Comparing them to Nazis is all you guys ever do. I'm pointing out the fact that Antifa are - in fact - far less violent than Nazis, but you guys still drone on about how they are just like Nazis.
Because:
1) everyone here agrees that the nazis are scum
2) not everyone agrees that antifa are scum
Also,
3) nazis pose negligible threat to the US (because they are highly unlikely to achieve power here)
4) antifa probably will make a detrimental impact on US political discourse by normalizing violence as an acceptable response to speech
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:50 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Because:

1) everyone here agrees that the nazis are scum

2) not everyone agrees that antifa are scum

Also,

3) nazis pose negligible threat to the US (because they are highly unlikely to achieve power here)

4) antifa probably will make a detrimental impact on US political discourse by normalizing violence as an acceptable response to speech
You missed 5) nazis have made a detrimental impact on US political discourse by normalizing violence as an acceptable response to speech.

One is a potential, one has happened.
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Old 8th July 2019, 01:55 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You missed 5) nazis have made a detrimental impact on US political discourse by normalizing violence as an acceptable response to speech.

One is a potential, one has happened.
Until this thread, I didnít think that violence was widely seen as an acceptable response to speech.

Bunch of violent authoritarians on this forum
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Old 8th July 2019, 02:22 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
I did bring that up trying to make the point that they are both illiberal movements. The right-wing movements are far worse, having actually killed people but being less worse than these guys isn't an excuse for their violence or failed ideology. As Ricky Gervais said so well, there are far more options than picking a side between fascists and so-called antifa
What ideology does Antifa have, though?

This is the main problem you're running into - "Antifa" isn't any sort of organization with a list of policies, a leadership, and so forth. They're just anyone who works against fascism. That's it. There's a major difference between the Black Bloc anarchists, are are definitely into destroying property and will attack Proud Boys, red hats, etc. on sight, Black Lives Matter, the nonviolent group that works through protest, voting drives, and so forth - and various online groups who work via doxxing, educational videos, and so forth. And yes, lone actors will often jump in as well.

By the way, "the Alt-Right" is also an umbrella term. The difference is, their unifying goal is "turn the US into an authoritarian, male-dominated white ethnostate", which inherently requires the removal of women's rights, as well as a genocidal campaign against all racial and religious minorities. In other words, they're inherently violent, because their goal requires killing tens of millions of people. This is why some of them are happy to shoot up religious buildings (including black churches in one case - US churches are highly segregated after all), or to run around beating random minorities (this was the major aim of the Unite the Right rally).

The main goal of Antifa, aside from "Oppose the current administration" is "Don't let those guys do that". Aside from the Black Bloc, who are usually college-age kids looking to crack skulls and stay away from the other Antifa groups, this involves a show of numbers, taking video to doxx violent white nationalists later, and the like.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:26 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I disagree. Leftists not engaging in this sort of violence only means they become victims, because the right sure as hell won't stop. Doesn't stop them winning elections either, so that excuse is right out the window.
The left really doesn't need to be led from the fringe. The kind of fights Antifa gets into are the kind of fights that don't happen at all if Antifa doesn't show up.

I don't mind doxxing Nazis. I do mind masked people showing up to parks with bats and other weapons looking to rumble.
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Old 8th July 2019, 05:57 AM   #497
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For the sake of sanity, compare Washington DC, whose police haven't totally abdicated their duty, to Portland.

Alt-right and antifa both showed up this weekend for a very charged protest/counterprotest, much like those in Portland. Except the police didn't let them roam the streets beating the snot out of eachother and bystanders.

Project Europa, noted white-supremacist group, made absolute fools out of themselves by screeching on stage how they got kicked off of Tinder. https://twitter.com/AlexThomasDC/sta...29517902245888

Antifa knocked over a newsstand.

As far as I can tell, nobody got their skull cracked for daring to take a photo.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The left really doesn't need to be led from the fringe. The kind of fights Antifa gets into are the kind of fights that don't happen at all if Antifa doesn't show up.

I don't mind doxxing Nazis. I do mind masked people showing up to parks with bats and other weapons looking to rumble.
Only in Portland is there a life-and-death struggle of illberial leftism vs neo-fascism, where one must pick sides to avoid being clubbed. In the civilized world, where the police haven't surrendered the streets to thuggery, participation in the public square remains a protected right.

Portland is the poster-child for the exact wrong way to handle these highly charged protests.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How can you claim to know that?



How can you claim to know that?
How can you claim to know for sure they are not, they are comfortable being associated with those who associate with such people, and support those who willingly associate with such people. So the idea can't be too abhorrent to them.


Quote:
I've never made a point of asking whether they would be willing to openly associate with people who think sodomy should be (once again) considered a capital crime, but it might make for interesting cocktail chatter, now you mention it.

By the way, this thread actually started with an act of mob violence against a gay American. Have you condemned that action, yet, or are you happy to condone it?
I know nothing of the incident and never heard of the individual. Of course there are lots of gay Nazis as sources of I have cited in the past show and of course even have Milo a white supremacist professional homophobe apologist in an interracial gay marriage.

The world stopped making sense long ago.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:09 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
For the record, I believe that all the white-power mental defectives and the kids playing super-hero dress-up should be hung from the same tree.
Yep it makes it strange that we viewed the death of Heather Heyer as some kind of tragedy when really everyone on both sides should be viewed as equally terrible human beings. Trump was wrong, there were no fine people there at all, they were all violent thugs.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:15 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
The left really doesn't need to be led from the fringe. The kind of fights Antifa gets into are the kind of fights that don't happen at all if Antifa doesn't show up.
If they don't, innocent people get attacked instead.

Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't mind doxxing Nazis. I do mind masked people showing up to parks with bats and other weapons looking to rumble.
Get on with doxxing Nazis then. At least you're doing something.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:16 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
What ideology does Antifa have, though?

This is the main problem you're running into - "Antifa" isn't any sort of organization with a list of policies, a leadership, and so forth. They're just anyone who works against fascism. That's it. There's a major difference between the Black Bloc anarchists, are are definitely into destroying property and will attack Proud Boys, red hats, etc. on sight, Black Lives Matter, the nonviolent group that works through protest, voting drives, and so forth - and various online groups who work via doxxing, educational videos, and so forth. And yes, lone actors will often jump in as well.
And yet they are all morally equivalent to white supremacists in the eyes of so many here.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:27 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet they are all morally equivalent to white supremacists in the eyes of so many here.
I'm not willing to give their illiberal tactics a pass just because they aren't literally as bad as nazis.

There's a spectrum of illiberalism, in which Nazis and Antifa are not equal. Both are well passed the point of acceptability. The special alarm I hold for antifa is entirely due to the disturbing fact that so many are willing to treat their illiberal violence as acceptable, including those in positions of power tasked to stop them.

So yeah, getting clubbed in the head is better than being gunned down in a synagogue or run over by a car. We shouldn't pretend getting clubbed in the head is an acceptable outcome just because it isn't literally the worst thing possible.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:31 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet they are all morally equivalent to white supremacists in the eyes of so many here.
It's actually really easy to take a stance against direct action political violence without looking like a Nazi apologist. Here's how it's done:

"I appreciate that you have taken upon yourself to help solve the problem with white supremacy and Nazism, but I think you are hindering progress instead of helping it when you attack Nazis in the street. The police are there to help people who are attacked by the Nazis, and you don't need to do that."

I don't agree with the above, but it ought to encapsulate the feelings of those that don't agree with political violence and also don't agree with Fascism. Instead we get "Antifa are just like the Nazis hurr hurr", which is straight out of the alt-right playbook.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:33 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not willing to give their illiberal tactics a pass just because they aren't literally as bad as nazis.

There's a spectrum of illiberalism, in which Nazis and Antifa are not equal. Both are well passed the point of acceptability. The special alarm I hold for antifa is entirely due to the disturbing fact that so many are willing to treat their illiberal violence as acceptable, including those in positions of power tasked to stop them.

So yeah, getting clubbed in the head is better than being gunned down in a synagogue or run over by a car. We shouldn't pretend getting clubbed in the head is an acceptable outcome just because it isn't literally the worst thing possible.
And of course the non violent ones like BLM are just as bad as the violent ones too. Why photographing nazi events and doxing the attendees is clearly just as bad as hitting someone with a club.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:35 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's actually really easy to take a stance against direct action political violence without looking like a Nazi apologist. Here's how it's done:

"I appreciate that you have taken upon yourself to help solve the problem with white supremacy and Nazism, but I think you are hindering progress instead of helping it when you attack Nazis in the street. The police are there to help people who are attacked by the Nazis, and you don't need to do that."

I don't agree with the above, but it ought to encapsulate the feelings of those that don't agree with political violence and also don't agree with Fascism. Instead we get "Antifa are just like the Nazis hurr hurr", which is straight out of the alt-right playbook.
The problem is that antifa isn't just those being willing to use violent methods. And reducing all those who are part of it as such is a horrible generalization. It helps fit into the idea that the death of Heather Heyer was justified because she was part of the violent antifa attack on them.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:38 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The problem is that antifa isn't just those being willing to use violent methods. And reducing all those who are part of it as such is a horrible generalization. It helps fit into the idea that the death of Heather Heyer was justified because she was part of the violent antifa attack on them.
That's true, and you can note that I didn't say "Antifa" in my attempt at a suggestion. However, the US political system is so obsessed with labels that it simply doesn't sink in what Antifa means.

Maybe I can try an analogy? Antifa is like Football. It's something you do. The New York Giants is a football club, analogous to a local chapter who calls themselves Antifa.

Does that make sense?
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:43 AM   #507
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Only in Portland is there a life-and-death struggle of illberial leftism vs neo-fascism, where one must pick sides to avoid being clubbed. In the civilized world, where the police haven't surrendered the streets to thuggery, participation in the public square remains a protected right.

Portland is the poster-child for the exact wrong way to handle these highly charged protests.

I would agree with this, except for the fact that it's not just Portland where the police have ceded the streets to the Nazis and brawlers. Police in too many cities have been far too willing to let the fascist white supremacists stomp around unopposed, and in some cases have openly sympathized with them. That's why Charlottesville happened, the police chose to do nearly nothing effective to halt the clear and present threat that a bunch of armed fascist thugs comprised; not even when those thugs started beating unarmed, non-violent protesters. It wasn't until the antifa direct-action groups intervened to oppose the fascists that the police started to get involved in a meaningful way.

And that's the problem overall. If the police were actually there as a neutral presence to protect the people, then we wouldn't be seeing the violent resistance from antifa groups. But they're not, and never have been. Portland police are among the most openly racist, but nearly all PDs across the country have a problem with racism and far-right sympathies.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:47 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course the non violent ones like BLM are just as bad as the violent ones too. Why photographing nazi events and doxing the attendees is clearly just as bad as hitting someone with a club.

It isn't that long ago that Black Lives Matter activists were being called terrorists simply for existing and non-violently protesting against racist police violence and policy. As far as the far-right is concerned, a "terrorist" is anyone who opposes their worldview.
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:50 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And of course the non violent ones like BLM are just as bad as the violent ones too. Why photographing nazi events and doxing the attendees is clearly just as bad as hitting someone with a club.
knock the hell out of that straw man
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:02 AM   #510
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I would agree with this, except for the fact that it's not just Portland where the police have ceded the streets to the Nazis and brawlers. Police in too many cities have been far too willing to let the fascist white supremacists stomp around unopposed, and in some cases have openly sympathized with them. That's why Charlottesville happened, the police chose to do nearly nothing effective to halt the clear and present threat that a bunch of armed fascist thugs comprised; not even when those thugs started beating unarmed, non-violent protesters. It wasn't until the antifa direct-action groups intervened to oppose the fascists that the police started to get involved in a meaningful way.

And that's the problem overall. If the police were actually there as a neutral presence to protect the people, then we wouldn't be seeing the violent resistance from antifa groups. But they're not, and never have been. Portland police are among the most openly racist, but nearly all PDs across the country have a problem with racism and far-right sympathies.
Sure, plenty of police departments have mishandled these very charged political protests and counterprotests. Plenty of these police departments have strong right-wing and racist affinities. The tactics of the police at Charlottesville has a lot to answer for allowing such extreme escalation to occur prior to the death of Heyer.

The solution is not to abandon all hope for peaceful protest. Public pressure is being put on these departments. Charlottesville did very poorly on the day, but in the aftermath was shamed into acting appropriately. Those goons that beat Harris in the parking garage were identified, arrested, and prosecuted, though initially it seemed they might escape all justice due to disinterest by the police. Chris "the crying Nazi" Cantwell plead guilty and was banished from the state for 5 years. Four white supremacists were charged with rioting. The KKK man who discharged a firearm was arrested aand sentenced to 4 years prison. All of these things occurred, despite the original inclination of the police to do nothing (or, in the case of Harris, to pursue the victims). Public pressure works.

My reading is that most cities have learned how to appropriately respond. There is a reason that Portland is the repeat venue for these clashes, and that reason is that Portland is one of the few cities where these clashes can occur without interference by the police. They have refused to learn the lessons of the violent clashes.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:11 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
knock the hell out of that straw man
We have established that the sides are just as bad, mostly by no true scottsmaning antifa. By limiting it to only the most violent we then lump the whole movement together as violent.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:13 AM   #512
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Sure, plenty of police departments have mishandled these very charged political protests and counterprotests. Plenty of these police departments have strong right-wing and racist affinities. The tactics of the police at Charlottesville has a lot to answer for allowing such extreme escalation to occur prior to the death of Heyer.

The solution is not to abandon all hope for peaceful protest. Public pressure is being put on these departments
Yea but that doesn't matter, it isn't like public pressure can force any kind of change in the police. It takes a lot more than that to get any kind of change and there simply is no political will to reform the police.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I get it. You live in a fantasy world where "gather support and gain legitimacy" isn't "part of the plan."
So what's the solution again? Criminalise speech we find unacceptable? How does one define what's acceptable or not in a way that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass afterwards?

I've never really had a good answer to that.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:34 AM   #514
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So what's the solution again? Criminalise speech we find unacceptable?
People always speak of this is hushed tones like it's an opinion that can only come from some totalitarian overlord, but all societies do it to some degree. No functioning concept of free speech that actually exists in the real world is absolute. I can't yell fire in a crowded theater, accuse you of something you aren't without good reason, claim to be Dutchess of York on my Passport application, or countless other things.

Suggesting that a health society does not need Nazis shouting in the streets doesn't make me a... well Nazi.

Quote:
How does one define what's acceptable or not in a way that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass afterwards?
The same way we outlawed shouting fire in a crowded theater without it coming back to bite us in the ass afterwards. The same way we have slander and libel laws without destroying parody and satire. The same we have barbers who can cut your hair but not have barbers who can cut your head off.

"Okay but what if we go too far?" as an on call, open ended worry shuts down everything, all discussion and all actions forever of all time.

We can't do anything if "Okay but what if we go too far?" is allowed as a universal retort.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:42 AM   #515
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
People always speak of this is hushed tones like it's an opinion that can only come from some totalitarian overlord, but all societies do it to some degree. No functioning concept of free speech that actually exists in the real world is absolute. I can't yell fire in a crowded theater, accuse you of something you aren't without good reason, claim to be Dutchess of York on my Passport application, or countless other things.

Suggesting that a health society does not need Nazis shouting in the streets doesn't make me a... well Nazi.



The same way we outlawed shouting fire in a crowded theater without it coming back to bite us in the ass afterwards. The same way we have slander and libel laws without destroying parody and satire. The same we have barbers who can cut your hair but not have barbers who can cut your head off.

"Okay but what if we go too far?" as an on call, open ended worry shuts down everything, all discussion and all actions forever of all time.

We can't do anything if "Okay but what if we go too far?" is allowed as a universal retort.
I can guarantee you that no good law will come from masked antifa and prouds boys clubbing each other in the streets. Expect an authoritarian overreach in the form of aggressive policing, prohibition of public assembly, or some other erosion of civil rights.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:46 AM   #516
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
A second 2020 democratic hopeful, Eric Swalwell, has condemned the attacks:

Sadly, it seems like we need a Journalist Protection Act.
It kinda seems like it, but I actually disagree.

Journalists enjoy exactly the same right to speech and publication as every other citizen. In terms of human rights and government protections, assaulting a journalist is already against the law, because assaulting anyone is against the law.

Assault, whether political or otherwise, probably shouldn't be a federal crime, just like most common crimes aren't federal crimes.

I really don't want people to have to get on some federal "official journalist" registry, just so they can appeal to federal courts when they are assaulted. For one thing, it's redundant with existing laws and principles of civil society. For another thing, it would tend to create a false boundary between free citizen and "legitimate" journalist.

It's really frustrating to me that Andy Ngo, who has a legitimate complaint, has chosen to present that complaint in terms of "legitimate journalism" rather than in terms of "free citizen with human rights".
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:50 AM   #517
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It kinda seems like it, but I actually disagree.

Journalists enjoy exactly the same right to speech and publication as every other citizen. In terms of human rights and government protections, assaulting a journalist is already against the law, because assaulting anyone is against the law.

Assault, whether political or otherwise, probably shouldn't be a federal crime, just like most common crimes aren't federal crimes.

I really don't want people to have to get on some federal "official journalist" registry, just so they can appeal to federal courts when they are assaulted. For one thing, it's redundant with existing laws and principles of civil society. For another thing, it would tend to create a false boundary between free citizen and "legitimate" journalist.

It's really frustrating to me that Andy Ngo, who has a legitimate complaint, has chosen to present that complaint in terms of "legitimate journalism" rather than in terms of "free citizen with human rights".
I agree. Again, the problem with Ngo's case isn't that beating the hell out of someone at a protest isn't illegal enough, it's that the law isn't being enforced. It doesn't matter how severe the punishment is if there is 0% chance of the police enforcing the law and making arrests, as is the case in Portland.

I also would not single out journalists for special protection. I would be ok with laws being passed to make political violence a more severe form of battery and carrying a more severe penalty. Throwing a fist a political event has much more a negative societal impact than your average bar-fight, and I would support sentences that reflect that.

Extra-legal beatings at a political event has a chilling effect on public participation in politics, and that ought to be harshly punished.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:54 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How does one define what's acceptable or not in a way that doesn't come back to bite us in the ass afterwards?

I've never really had a good answer to that.
By gaining total control. When you make all the decisions, the standards always work for you. Stalin pulled it off, so did Mao.
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Old 8th July 2019, 07:55 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
For the sake of sanity, compare Washington DC, whose police haven't totally abdicated their duty, to Portland.

Alt-right and antifa both showed up this weekend for a very charged protest/counterprotest, much like those in Portland. Except the police didn't let them roam the streets beating the snot out of eachother and bystanders.

Project Europa, noted white-supremacist group, made absolute fools out of themselves by screeching on stage how they got kicked off of Tinder. https://twitter.com/AlexThomasDC/sta...29517902245888

Antifa knocked over a newsstand.

As far as I can tell, nobody got their skull cracked for daring to take a photo.



Only in Portland is there a life-and-death struggle of illberial leftism vs neo-fascism, where one must pick sides to avoid being clubbed. In the civilized world, where the police haven't surrendered the streets to thuggery, participation in the public square remains a protected right.

Portland is the poster-child for the exact wrong way to handle these highly charged protests.
So, the guys who go on and on about degeneracy and whoreishness in society and who want to remove women's rights and lock them in houses are happy to use Tinder?

Jesus christ, somebody help me, the cognitive dissonance and irony is suffocating.

I still don't understand this movement.

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Old 8th July 2019, 08:01 AM   #520
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The solution is not to abandon all hope for peaceful protest. Public pressure is being put on these departments. Charlottesville did very poorly on the day, but in the aftermath was shamed into acting appropriately. Those goons that beat Harris in the parking garage were identified, arrested, and prosecuted, though initially it seemed they might escape all justice due to disinterest by the police. Chris "the crying Nazi" Cantwell plead guilty and was banished from the state for 5 years. Four white supremacists were charged with rioting. The KKK man who discharged a firearm was arrested aand sentenced to 4 years prison. All of these things occurred, despite the original inclination of the police to do nothing (or, in the case of Harris, to pursue the victims). Public pressure works.

The problem with that is that this is just a handful of token prosecutions for the most extreme cases, under public pressure to take action. IIRC, at least one of these would not have even been prosecuted had it not been for the efforts of antifa activists.

Aside from those, there are literally hundreds of participants in Unite the Right; dozens of those were involved in violence against non-violent protesters, and have gotten off scot-free.

As for other cities learning from Charlottesville, well, time will tell. A few big cities have improved their handling of these events; but police responses to far-right violence are still lacking in much of the US. And since we haven't seen anything anywhere near the scale of Charlottesville since, we can't really say how much better things have gotten.

At least the ACLU has finally stopped supporting violent fascists and white supremacists.
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