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Old 9th July 2019, 09:15 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
For the 500th time. Their beliefs are largely the same.
You understand that repeating a claim does not make it true, right?

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Now if only I had done that.
I was obviously talking about some other guy over at the IMDB forum.

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LoL this is getting insane.
Indeed. The lengths to which you'll go to deny saying what is a matter of public record is borderline crazy. You were asked how widespread Nazi belief was. You pulled a stat based on a related but different group and were called on it. Now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, both saying that they are essentially of the same philosophy, enough so that we can ignore the differences for the purposes of the discussion, AND that you've never claimed they were the same thing. Which is it?

Quote:
Do you agree or disagree that Nazism and those who identify as alt-right hold, largely, the same beliefs? i.e. white's are superior, anti-LGBTQ, anti-minorities, etc.
I don't strictly agree with the above because it's misleading. They hold some of the same beliefs, just like Hitler and Peter Dinklage share vegetarianism. Whether the overlap makes them sufficiently similar to be considered one and the same thing is a point of contention.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:18 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The ******* Nazis and the other groups are being used as the larger number because the ******* ideology is, largely, the same. That's why they were all on the same "side".
That makes no sense whatsoever. Enemies sometimes gather together to fight a third party. It doesn't make them the same at all.

Also, do you think you could calm down? It's really not helping your eloquence or your ability to present a well-constructed argument.

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I did have to take logic, yes.
That wasn't my question. My profession, for example, requires me to use logic and inference constantly. Taking a logics course one time isn't the same thing.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:21 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed. The lengths to which you'll go to deny saying what is a matter of public record is borderline crazy. You were asked how widespread Nazi belief was. You pulled a stat based on a related but different group and were called on it. Now you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, both saying that they are essentially of the same philosophy, enough so that we can ignore the differences for the purposes of the discussion, AND that you've never claimed they were the same thing. Which is it?
Yet despite all of the posts neither of you have actually ******* said what the differences between them are, have you? Zigg argued about google searches, and we're arguing about how similar they are while you downplay that massive amount of similarities between the two, all while implying I'm completely wrong.

You say they're related and I was asked about how accepted the IDEOLOGY is, of which the two are extremely similar. No matter how much you keep saying they aren't.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't strictly agree with the above because it's misleading. They hold some of the same beliefs, just like Hitler and Peter Dinklage share vegetarianism. Whether the overlap makes them sufficiently similar to be considered one and the same thing is a point of contention.
Sweet, now we're getting somewhere. What do you think is the most distinguishing difference where we can say "yeah, they are extremely far apart actually"?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was obviously talking about some other guy over at the IMDB forum.
Yes, and I was saying it had absolutely nothing to do with anything I've done, and you replied to a quote about my actions with your tale.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:24 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That makes no sense whatsoever. Enemies sometimes gather together to fight a third party. It doesn't make them the same at all.

Also, do you think you could calm down? It's really not helping your eloquence or your ability to present a well-constructed argument.
Ah, you're one of those "if he's swearing he's really mad" type of people. I'm not riled up at all, I assure you. This is just the normal plague311.

Ok, so great. Enemies sometimes gather together to fight a third party. Are you saying that's what happened here? People of two completely different ideologies teamed up to fight?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That wasn't my question. My profession, for example, requires me to use logic and inference constantly. Taking a logics course one time isn't the same thing.
Neat, it was an irrelevant question so I gave at an irrelevant reply. I use logic in my daily work too. Moving on.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:30 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's a keyword search. If it locates the word inside of those articles, etc. then it associates the keyword with the article. It so happens that my search criteria that included Nazi's brought up a ton of alt-right articles. Further proving my point. I didn't feel I needed to explain how ******* google searches work, but when you guys don't have **** to fall back on then you have to dick around with dumb **** like this.

I'm a network administrator by trade, and I can explain how each packet traverses the network and **** too. How specific do you want it? Christ.
This is an appeal to to popularity, bolstered by an appeal to authority.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:31 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yet despite all of the posts neither of you have actually ******* said what the differences between them are, have you?
Well I assumed you knew, but it's becoming increasingly obvious that you don't. However since you seem to lump them together because they are part of a larger rally and occupied the same physical space, I think that has to do with your ability to distinguish objects.

Quote:
Zigg argued about google searches, and we're arguing about how similar they are while you downplay that massive amount of similarities between the two, all while implying I'm completely wrong.
That's a very nice way to twist words to pretend like things happened differently than they have. I'm starting to think you're not half as pissed as you seem to be.

The thing you're completely wrong about is that they largely have the same ideology. You're not wrong about there being an overlap between the two groups, something I've already stated a few minutes ago.

Quote:
You say they're related and I was asked about how accepted the IDEOLOGY is, of which the two are extremely similar.
See, there's that wordplay again. What do you mean by "extremely"? How much is extremely? What things don't they have in common, for instance? Which of those things are part of the other's core ideology?

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What do you think is the most distinguishing difference where we can say "yeah, they are extremely far apart actually"?
I'm not sure I'm parsing this correctly. Are you asking me for the most crucial difference between the two?
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:34 AM   #607
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ah, you're one of those "if he's swearing he's really mad" type of people.
No, I'm one of those "if he's swearing repeatedly he's rather miffed" type of people. Asterisked words are disruptive to reading, so using them repeatedly certainly gives off the impression that you're not really trying to be understood clearly, but are rather venting.

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Ok, so great. Enemies sometimes gather together to fight a third party. Are you saying that's what happened here? People of two completely different ideologies teamed up to fight?
Why are you always trying to find some hidden meaning in what I write? I responded to a specific argument of yours. The peg won't fit anywhere else.

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Neat, it was an irrelevant question so I gave at an irrelevant reply.
The question was entirely relevant since the ability to understand logic was under discussion. Are you sure you know what "relevant" means?
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:39 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well I assumed you knew, but it's becoming increasingly obvious that you don't. However since you seem to lump them together because they are part of a larger rally and occupied the same physical space, I think that has to do with your ability to distinguish objects.
No, I don't lump them together because of the things you mentioned. I lump them together because they lump themselves together, because they share similar outlooks. As you said, they banded together to fight someone else. Why?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's a very nice way to twist words to pretend like things happened differently than they have. I'm starting to think you're not half as pissed as you seem to be.
Ok...what words did I twist? Why do I feel like I have to milk answers out of people? I specifically told you I wasn't pissed, at all. Why would I be? This is an anonymous internet discussion forum.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The thing you're completely wrong about is that they largely have the same ideology. You're not wrong about there being an overlap between the two groups, something I've already stated a few minutes ago.
Awesome, for extreme clarification. You're saying that there are several more differences than there are similarities, right?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
See, there's that wordplay again. What do you mean by "extremely"? How much is extremely? What things don't they have in common, for instance? Which of those things are part of the other's core ideology?
...that's what I'm asking. I've given examples of how the core tenants are exactly the same between these two. You and Zig have repeatedly told me that I'm wrong. I'm merely asking, how am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure I'm parsing this correctly. Are you asking me for the most crucial difference between the two?
Yes. I want to know what the key differences between the ideologies of Nazism and the alt-right movement that self identifies as white nationalists, etc.

I kept it swear free because I know how it bothers some.

ETA: I am not going to reply to the post after your first one as they're becoming somewhat redundant. I think we're on a forward moving track, so lets stick with this one for now.
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Last edited by plague311; 9th July 2019 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:47 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, I don't lump together because of the things you mentioned. I lump them together because they lump themselves together, because they share similar outlooks.
Now who's being pedantic? I'm pretty sure you know what I mean.

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As you said, they banded together to fight someone else. Why?
Are you going to commit the exact same error of logic I earlier corrected you on? I'll remind you that people who hate each other often band together. Having a common goal does not mean you agree on the fundamental of each other's ideology.

Quote:
Ok...what words did I twist? Why do I feel like I have to milk answers out of people?
It feels that way because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can read your way out of a paper bag.

It's your use of superlatives and exaggerated adjectives that I was refering to. You're trying to force a meaning onto other words by adding these.

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I specifically told you I wasn't pissed, at all. Why would I be? This is an anonymous internet discussion forum.
Yeah anonymous internet discussions never get heated, after all.

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Awesome, for extreme clarification. You're saying that there are several more differences than there are similarities, right?
No. Are you seriously suggesting that we resolve this question mathematically?

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...that's what I'm asking. I've given examples of how the core tenants are exactly the same between these two.
You tell me. You're the one who claimed that they shared them. So which ones do they share, and which ones do they not?
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Old 9th July 2019, 09:52 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You make gulags sound so awesome!



When the famine is caused by (or exacerbated by) the communist government, it still counts as the communists killing people. Especially when the famine is sorta on purpose to subdue a population that isn't getting with the program.
My observation of caveman1917 is that he or she is an apologist for communist atrocities who employs a form of DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).

1. Communism isn't as bad as you thought or not bad at all.

2. The virtues of western democratic capitalist institutions that you take for granted are a lie.

3. Democracy and capitalism are actually much more evil than any misinformed idea you have about communism.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:07 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah anonymous internet discussions never get heated, after all.
They don't for me, I'm sorry they do for you.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No. Are you seriously suggesting that we resolve this question mathematically?
Ok, what other way would you like to do it? If we don't say they have more similarities than differences or vice versa, how do we come to a conclusion? If you just want to hear me say "Ok, you're right", I'm sorry it's not going to happen. You can sit here and imply I'm a moron that can't read as many times as you want. I don't really care. I have teenage kids, I get called worse consistently.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You tell me. You're the one who claimed that they shared them. So which ones do they share, and which ones do they not?
Tough to say as I can't list each and every aspect of it, which is why I focused on the core tenants. For instances:

White people are superior
Anti-LGBTQ
Anti-Immigrant
Anti-Semetic
Wearing Nazi clothing or displaying it on their vehicles\houses
Violence (whether the left uses it or not, the NC incident proves they will beat and kill people without hesitation)
Making it harder for ethnic people to vote

All of those they seem to have in common. The large differences is that they don't have the power to kill people.

The things they don't have in common:

They don't have death camps
Uhm...they, uhm, haven't taken over government, I guess?

I don't know. That's why I was asking you. Instead you told me I can't read. So what are their key differences? I honestly don't know.

Hell, give me some search criteria. After all, I can't read. I need some help.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:17 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
(or, in the case of Harris, to pursue the victims).

To be fair, Harris did in fact throw the first punch.



The violence in Charlottesville was describe earlier (by you?) as "one sided", but that was far from the case. What I saw at Charlottesville was a group of white supremacists who were eager to be attacked, so that they could escalate, and a group of counterprotestors quite willing to give them the opportunity to do so. Some of the counterprotesters carried weapons and shields, and, in an interesting twist, balloons filled with mixtures of paint and human waste. I can't imagine using such an item in self defense.

What should have happened was that the two groups should have been kept far from each other. People should have been arrested or ticketed for interfering with "the other side", whoever that was. Instead, the police sat back and let a whole bunch of low level violence occur, and only stepped in when it got way out of hand.


The details of the Harris fight were covered in the thread about Charlottesville, but I'll put them hear, in a spoiler, in case anyone is interested.


A group of Nazis* were walking down the street. The gathering at the park had been dispersed, but they were walking through the streets, still in groups, basically returning to parking lots or gathering areas. Deandre (sp?) Harris and Corey Long were walking behind them, harassing and issuing vague threats. (Harris was taped waving some sort of club while saying "respect the bat"). At some point, a Nazi had his flag resting on his shoulder as he walked. Corey Long snuck up behind and tried to steal the flag. The Nazi and Long were struggling with the flag, when Harris stepped in and used the "bat" he was carrying to hit the Nazi in the head. That's what precipitated the fight. Several other Nazis came in to defend their friend, and they knocked Harris to the ground and he was struck while on the ground. Another man, white, was also knocked to the ground and struck on the ground, but I don't think anyone was ever charged for that.

As an aside, you might see footage of Charlottesville in which a man was using a lighter and can of spray paint as a sort of short range flamethrower to threaten the Nazis. That man was Corey Long. It was while he was using the flame-sprayer that the other white supremacist discharged his firearm, firing a shot into the ground near Corey Long's feet.


*I don't know if they would call themselves "Nazis", but it's close enough.

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Old 9th July 2019, 10:20 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, Harris did in fact throw the first punch.
And I am sure the police were also right to ignore the crying nazi when he was only taking pot shots at those terrorist antifa. Really the sympathy that violent antifa like Heather Heyer gets for getting run over by a terrified person trying to flee for their life is sickening to all true Americans.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:21 AM   #614
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
They don't for me
Sure they don't.

Quote:
Ok, what other way would you like to do it?
Any other way would be better, since otherwise you'd either have to agree as to their exact number and how many are part of the set or not, or how many points each is worth on the balance, etc., and it would get ridiculous quite fast.

Quote:
White people are superior
Anti-LGBTQ
Anti-Immigrant
Anti-Semetic
The last point is not quite right. Antisemitism is not a core feature of the alt-right and in fact some consider Jews to be white.

Quote:
Wearing Nazi clothing or displaying it on their vehicles\houses
Pretty sure this is not a core feature of alt-right ideology.

Quote:
Violence (whether the left uses it or not, the NC incident proves they will beat and kill people without hesitation)
Granted.

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Making it harder for ethnic people to vote
I think that's included in the previous points. You padding the scoreboard, bruh?

Quote:
All of those they seem to have in common. The large differences is that they don't have the power to kill people.

The things they don't have in common:

They don't have death camps
Uhm...they, uhm, haven't taken over government, I guess?
Come on, you can try harder than that. Are you seriously out of items, or would you rather not name the rest because it would boost the latter list? How about nationalisation of industry, for instance? Hell, you missed patriarchal tendencies in your pro-list.

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I don't know. That's why I was asking you.
I'm not the one who made a claim.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:26 AM   #615
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Antifa had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech, in Berkeley, a year or more before Charlottesville.
Nazis started normalising violence against those they targeted over a hundred years ago.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:27 AM   #616
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The last point is not quite right. Antisemitism is not a core feature of the alt-right and in fact some consider Jews to be white.
And of course there are a number of gay white supremacists who think the blacks are the jews thugs. So the LGBT thing is also not universal as well. But does minor differences in the definition of white and such really count as enough to classify them differently?

Then there are the jewish antisemitic nazis who have podcasts because the world stopped making any sense. See the Daily Shoah

Do does being a pro holocaust anti Semitic nazi supporting jew, hit enough buttons to call them out as nazis or not just because they are jewish?
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:31 AM   #617
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The last point is not quite right. Antisemitism is not a core feature of the alt-right and in fact some consider Jews to be white.
Ok, conceded.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Pretty sure this is not a core feature of alt-right ideology.
Maybe, but it certainly goes to show their support of the ideology we were talking about.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think that's included in the previous points. You padding the scoreboard, bruh?
I didn't think it fell into anti-immigration because ethnic people are born here as well. I didn't think it fell into white people are superior because it's about voting. I'll digress though.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Come on, you can try harder than that. Are you seriously out of items, or would you rather not name the rest because it would boost the latter list? How about nationalisation of industry, for instance? Hell, you missed patriarchal tendencies in your pro-list.
As I said, I did vague research. I don't know if the alt-right supports or doesn't support the nationalization of industry. I know for sure Trump doesn't as he is trying to go in the complete opposite direction.

You are right though, the alt-right are misogynists as well. Thanks for the catch.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not the one who made a claim.
Are we both not making claims right now? I'm claiming they're similar, you're claiming they aren't. I provided the reasoning behind my claim, why do I also have to provide the reasoning behind yours?
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Last edited by plague311; 9th July 2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:38 AM   #618
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I didn't think it fell into anti-immigration because ethnic people are born here as well. I didn't think it fell into white people are superior because it's about voting.
No but both fit with the white supremacy thing anyway. I don't think they object to white immigrants from Finland.

Quote:
I'll digress though.
You will?

Quote:
I don't know if the alt-right supports or doesn't support the nationalization of industry.
Well then, do you not see why I find your claim that they largely overlap hard to accept? Clearly they overlap to a good degree, but although the Alt-Right are despicable in their own right it's just silly to use their own numbers to bolster the number of Nazis in the country.

Quote:
You are right though, the alt-right are misogynists as well. Thanks for the catch.
Glad I could help out.

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Are we both not making claims right now?
Well, if you want to be pedantic, anytime someone says "X" and the other on says "Not X!", you could say they are both making claims, but you've been here long to know that the positive claim is usually the one carrying the burden.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:43 AM   #619
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazis started normalising violence against those they targeted over a hundred years ago.
I think you must be referring to the Romans, more than 2,000 years earlier.

For something more contemporaneous to the literal Nazis, we can look at the Communists, who were just as active in the same ways during that period. I think it's a stretch to blame this "normalization" on the Nazis.

And certainly in America today, it's extremely narrow-minded and ahistorical to do so.

Last edited by theprestige; 9th July 2019 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:48 AM   #620
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Granted.
I disagree. The violence in NC can be attributed to one group. It does not demonstrate violence as a shared value across all the groups.

If it did, we'd have to conclude that antifa share something important in common with the "alt-right". Which when it comes to political violence, they kinda do. But I doubt that's the direction plague intended this to go.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:49 AM   #621
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If it did, we'd have to conclude that antifa share something important in common with the "alt-right".
Well, don't we?
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:51 AM   #622
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, don't we?
I guess it depends who "we" are.

The central point of contention in this debate seems to be whether antifa engage in political violence.
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Old 9th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #623
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess it depends who "we" are.

The central point of contention in this debate seems to be whether antifa engage in political violence.
If we want to be logically consistent, I think we have to say that they do. Otherwise one could say that the alt-right aren't all violent and that the violent ones don't necessarily represent the whole, etc.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:06 AM   #624
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I expect the best people to ask what differentiates NAZI's from the rest of the Alt-right are the NAZI's, I'm willing to bet they can come up with a pretty comprehensive list of why the rest of the alt-right will eventually be purged.

Aside from that, NAZIism is a very clearly defined albeit incoherent ideology, which is what differentiates from other alt-right types which mostly have only vaguely defined notions of hating other people and blaming others for their misfortune.

So, the alt-right's big moment, charlottesville, how many showed up?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:07 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No but both fit with the white supremacy thing anyway. I don't think they object to white immigrants from Finland.
Ok.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You will?
Won't be my first or last.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well then, do you not see why I find your claim that they largely overlap hard to accept? Clearly they overlap to a good degree, but although the Alt-Right are despicable in their own right it's just silly to use their own numbers to bolster the number of Nazis in the country.
I wasn't really doing that though. I was asked if I felt that the Nazi ideology was widely accepted. I didn't even limit it to this particular country since alt-right and, to some extent, Nazism is global. I mentioned that earlier.

I think if there were a Venn Diagram about this it would come out somewhere close to an eclipse. I think the differences are much more minuscule than the similarities. In my opinion, the reason we don't call them Nazi's is merely because of the negativity surrounding Nazi's because of their massive slaughter of humans. That doesn't mean that the alt-right wouldn't do the exact same thing given the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, if you want to be pedantic, anytime someone says "X" and the other on says "Not X!", you could say they are both making claims, but you've been here long to know that the positive claim is usually the one carrying the burden.
I was.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If it did, we'd have to conclude that antifa share something important in common with the "alt-right". Which when it comes to political violence, they kinda do. But I doubt that's the direction plague intended this to go.
I would definitely say that antifa and the alt-right have stuff in common. I wouldn't say it's as much as the alt-right has in common with Nazism, but your point is valid.

The difference there is I can't really think of many people that have been killed by antifa, or the amount of bombs they've sent, or abortion hospitals they've shot up, etc. That doesn't mean they aren't violent, just not as...
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:13 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I expect the best people to ask what differentiates NAZI's from the rest of the Alt-right are the NAZI's, I'm willing to bet they can come up with a pretty comprehensive list of why the rest of the alt-right will eventually be purged.
Again, I never said they were completely the same. I said the ideologies were the same. Something I stand by.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Aside from that, NAZIism is a very clearly defined albeit incoherent ideology, which is what differentiates from other alt-right types which mostly have only vaguely defined notions of hating other people and blaming others for their misfortune.
I don't think Nazi's started with as much hate as they had at the end either. I think it was spoonfed to them, as is shown by history. Along the same lines as the alt-right is moving. They've become emboldened in the last few years and I don't think the alt-right of even 5 years ago is the same as now.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
So, the alt-right's big moment, charlottesville, how many showed up?
*shrug* I don't know. Enough to kill someone. That's more than enough for me. How many need to show up before it's a problem? It's by far and away larger than any antifa moment, but that's more of a whataboutism than anything, only in reverse I think.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:21 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think Nazi's started with as much hate as they had at the end either. I think it was spoonfed to them, as is shown by history. Along the same lines as the alt-right is moving. They've become emboldened in the last few years and I don't think the alt-right of even 5 years ago is the same as now.
And of course like any large party they had a diversity of views as well, so clearly not all members of the German national socialist workers party can really accurately be called nazis.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:23 AM   #628
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I AGREE
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Is there anything in there? I'm not listening to 1:11:00 of Ngo droning on in a pity party with a fellow right wing non-entity.
Either Ngo's a threat to civilization (warranting violent preprisals from vigilant antifascists) or he's a non-entity warranting nothing more than dismissal. Can't be both.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Either Ngo's a threat to civilization (warranting violent preprisals from vigilant antifascists) or he's a non-entity warranting nothing more than dismissal. Can't be both.
Can there be something in the middle of those two possibilities?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:27 AM   #630
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can there be something in the middle of those two possibilities?
Of course not, it is morally unacceptable to use force on anything less than a total threat to civilization. Isn't that clear? Now we just need to figure out of a little genocide is really a threat to civilization or not.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:27 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I wasn't really doing that though.
Plague, you linked to numbers that included a far larger group because, as you stated earlier, they pretty much had the same ideology. That sounds exactly like what I described.

Quote:
I think if there were a Venn Diagram about this it would come out somewhere close to an eclipse. I think the differences are much more minuscule than the similarities.
You think nationalisation, antisemitism, warmongering, eugenics and the like are minor differences?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:30 AM   #632
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You think nationalisation, antisemitism, warmongering, eugenics and the like are minor differences?
And of course no one would accuse richard spencer the founder of the Alt Right of any of that. It is all peaceful ethnic cleansing, like the nazis before WWII only this time we will find someone to actually take the bastards. No death camps or anything certainly.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:38 AM   #633
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Plague, you linked to numbers that included a far larger group because, as you stated earlier, they pretty much had the same ideology. That sounds exactly like what I described.
Ok, I'll just have to say that I disagree. I still feel there is enough overlap to consider the ideologies close. That's totally like...my opinion man.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You think nationalisation, antisemitism, warmongering, eugenics and the like are minor differences?
I think the alt-right is warmongering. They're certainly violent, and plenty would just love the opportunity for war in the Middle East. I think those things are differences, but again this goes back to just them not having enough power. When they have power they ban abortion, they are aggressive in getting minorities not to vote, they try to take away protections for LBGTQ, and that's also been proven time and again.

Just because they aren't doing those things doesn't mean they wouldn't if they didn't have the power to do so. The alt-right was marching with torches shortly before that and they've threatened more than enough people during those "demonstrations".

This was good for a couple pages of debate, I certainly won't argue that, but at this point I just don't believe we'll agree.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:41 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
That's totally like...my opinion man.


Quote:
I think the alt-right is warmongering.
You mean the rank-and-file, or politicians you consider to be alt-right?

Quote:
Just because they aren't doing those things doesn't mean they wouldn't if they didn't have the power to do so.
Yeah but that's why we should look at what they claim their goals are. Or at least what they say behind closed doors.

Quote:
This was good for a couple pages of debate, I certainly won't argue that, but at this point I just don't believe we'll agree.
Don't underestimate the power of a good argument.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:44 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Can there be something in the middle of those two possibilities?
Something that warrants mobbing and assault?

I mean, maybe...? Such as?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:48 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I was hoping that would land.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You mean the rank-and-file, or politicians you consider to be alt-right?
A little from column A and a little from column B. I see John Bolton as an alt-right figure, considering his past. He's about as pro-war as they get.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah but that's why we should look at what they claim their goals are. Or at least what they say behind closed doors.
I truly believe that there would be an echo chamber between the two for the most part. I believe that our difference is how extreme we think each one is and that's a matter of opinion. I don't see the beginnings of Nazism much differently than I view the alt-right of today...or the last few years actually. It's taken a sharp turn.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Don't underestimate the power of a good argument.
Absolutely.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:49 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
A little from column A and a little from column B. I see John Bolton as an alt-right figure, considering his past. He's about as pro-war as they get.
I don't know much about him. How is he alt-right?
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:50 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Something that warrants mobbing and assault?

I mean, maybe...? Such as?
I don't think there is anyone here arguing in good faith that anyone deserves to be mobbed and assaulted. The people that are definitely speak on their own and have received little to no support at all.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:53 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't know much about him. How is he alt-right?
From wiki:

Quote:
Bolton has been involved with numerous conservative organizations, including the anti-Muslim Gatestone Institute, where he served as the organization Chairman until March 2018, and as a Director of the Project for the New American Century, which favored going to war with Iraq.

A Republican, his political views have been described as American nationalist, conservative, and "neoconservative". Bolton rejects the last term and uses the term "pro-American" instead.
I would guess from his past that he is, but I'm not really sure we found a way to say that an individual is for sure. I don't know that he has a quote saying he is or anything.

Do people generally label themselves as alt-right or is it just based on things they believe? You know, like 9/11 CTist don't all think that they're CTist, we decide it for them.
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Old 9th July 2019, 11:58 AM   #640
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
From wiki:
Sounds pretty inconclusive to me. At best you can say that he's a middle-eastern hawk and islamophobe.
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