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Old 9th July 2019, 12:03 PM   #641
plague311
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sounds pretty inconclusive to me. At best you can say that he's a middle-eastern hawk and islamophobe.
Gatestone is also (partly) funded by the Mercer's, one of which sits on the "Governors" board, and they are definitely alt-right. You can't be anything but if you fund Breitbart. Though both of your statements are true, he is an middle-eastern hawk and islamophobe, he definitely seems to surround himself with alt-right individuals.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:04 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
From wiki:



I would guess from his past that he is, but I'm not really sure we found a way to say that an individual is for sure. I don't know that he has a quote saying he is or anything.

Do people generally label themselves as alt-right or is it just based on things they believe? You know, like 9/11 CTist don't all think that they're CTist, we decide it for them.
"Nazis."

In the past few weeks, we've gone from literal Nazis, to anyone we label as "alt-right", to anyone who has any conservative or republican associations. And all this from the same people justifying political violence against anyone they consider a "Nazi".
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:06 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Nazis."

In the past few weeks, we've gone from literal Nazis, to anyone we label as "alt-right", to anyone who has any conservative or republican associations. And all this from the same people justifying political violence against anyone they consider a "Nazi".
Sweet, now just show me where I "justified political violence against anyone I consider a 'Nazi'". Go ahead, I'll wait.

Also, anyone can read that post, or pickup on this article to see that Bolton doesn't just have sporadic ties. He's tits deep in it.

You obviously haven't read the last few pages, or you're just being obtuse. I'll let you decide which.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:12 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Sweet, now just show me where I "justified political violence against anyone I consider a 'Nazi'". Go ahead, I'll wait.
Then stop doing the dirty work for those who are.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:13 PM   #645
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Gatestone
Also known as the stone of scandals.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:18 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then stop doing the dirty work for those who are.
Ooo guilty by association, eh? Classy, classy.

I'm not doing any dirty work though. I'm merely having a conversation about why I think differently and view this differently. I don't, nor have I ever, condoned violence of any form. I've smiled about it, but I don't condone it.

Is that how we are debating now, though? Do I get to now accuse you of all of the **** Trump's done because you "do the dirty work" of arguing on his behalf?

Come on. Lets not do that buddy.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Also known as the stone of scandals.
*mobster voice* Way better than the Sandals of Stone, you get me? */mobster voice*
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You make gulags sound so awesome!
Only in comparison with the American prison system.

Quote:
When the famine is caused by (or exacerbated by) the communist government, it still counts as the communists killing people. Especially when the famine is sorta on purpose to subdue a population that isn't getting with the program.
And what famine would that be? I was talking about the 1933 famine, which obviously was not on purpose and definitely not to "subdue a population that isn't getting with the program."

But even so, that wasn't the point under contention. The contention was that the gulag system was designed for "slave labour" where inmates were "worked to death." Evidence provided to support that contention was the mortality rates in 1933 and 1942-43. If the contention were true then the mortality rates should be relatively stable and independent of the mortality rate in the country at large over the period of existence of the gulag system, the mortality rate being determined by the inherent nature of the gulags as opposed to external influence. Yet what we actually see is that these specific years are outliers, concurrent with outliers in mortality rate in the country at large, respectively due to famine in 1933 and the second world war in 1942-43. The evidence hence doesn't support the contention, it is rather merely cherry-picked and withdrawn from its larger context (ie the concurrent outliers in mortality rate in the country at large).

ETA: I'm actually curious why one then wouldn't cherry-pick the 1938 peak in gulag mortality given that, although of course still not supporting the contention, this one was at least caused by overcrowding due to the Great Purge and can hence be much easier argued to be a political crime if that's what one would want to argue.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I'm not sure you realised, but you proved my point.

What point? That the alt.right was founded by neo-Nazis and is still closely linked to them?

If not, then what flavours of fascists and white supremacists do you consider to be acceptable enough to sanitized the alt.right's image and reputation? How many of those flavours decided not to closely associate themselves with neo-Nazis in various rallies and marches, like Unite the Right?

At this point, I'm not strictly sure what your point actually was; and I have a sneaking suspicion that neither are you.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:25 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
What point? That the alt.right was founded by neo-Nazis and is still closely linked to them?
I don't know what point, but it seems to me that the term was coined by a neo-Nazi, and then promptly co-opted by politically-violent progressives to include a wide range of groups and views that were not part of the original coinage.

---

ETA: I suppose it's possible that Spencer himself was using an expansionist definition, in order to make his movement seem larger and more popular than it actually is. Perhaps the neo-Nazis and the anti-"nazis" are playing the same dishonest game, from opposite sides of the field.

This makes things pretty awkward for those of us who are moderate, non-bigoted, anti-establishment conservatives. Neo-Nazis with cynical delusions of grandeur on one side, and politically politically violent progressives who consider everyone to their right a "nazi" on the other. And a conservative political class that's too busy shoving both hands in the cookie jar to actually bother being conservative.

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Old 9th July 2019, 12:27 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Either Ngo's a threat to civilization (warranting violent preprisals from vigilant antifascists) or he's a non-entity warranting nothing more than dismissal. Can't be both.
What if he's a threat, specifically, to communists, anarchists, and other anti-fascists but not to liberals (unless Jewish or otherwise specifically targeted other than for political reasons)?
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:37 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know what point, but it seems to me that the term was coined by a neo-Nazi, and then promptly co-opted by politically-violent progressives to include a wide range of groups and views that were not part of the original coinage.

---

ETA: I suppose it's possible that Spencer himself was using an expansionist definition, in order to make his movement seem larger and more popular than it actually is. Perhaps the neo-Nazis and the anti-"nazis" are playing the same dishonest game, from opposite sides of the field.

This makes things pretty awkward for those of us who are moderate, non-bigoted, anti-establishment conservatives. Neo-Nazis with cynical delusions of grandeur on one side, and politically politically violent progressives who consider everyone to their right a "nazi" on the other. And a conservative political class that's too busy shoving both hands in the cookie jar to actually bother being conservative.
Seems like a lot of words to tell me I'm right, theprestige.

*Walks away, personifying Danth's Law*
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:39 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ooo guilty by association, eh? Classy, classy.
I'm sorry. I was not intending to imply an argument of guilt by association. My argument is that you are guilty of aggressively expanding what it means to be a legitimate target of political violence, for those who advocate political violence.

Ironically, your entire argument over the past few pages has been one of guilt by association.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:43 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think Nazi's started with as much hate as they had at the end either. I think it was spoonfed to them, as is shown by history. Along the same lines as the alt-right is moving. They've become emboldened in the last few years and I don't think the alt-right of even 5 years ago is the same as now.

Have to disagree here. The Nazis foundational documents, and their origins in the volkisch movements started out with a foundation of hate and elitism, which was just expanded upon from there. Now, it's possible that many of the rank-and-file were not coming from that same position of hate, but I doubt that is the case. One thing that allowed the Nazis to springboard into popularity as quickly and effectively as they did was that they played into existing antisemitic, anti-immigration, and anti-LGBTQ sentiments.

The only thing that really differentiated the Nazis from any other fascist or white supremacist group is 1) the amount and duration of the power that they held; and 2) their sheer efficiency in carrying out their attempt at genocide. Both of these were due entirely due to an accident of history providing them the right-place-at-the-right-time, and the tools they needed to carry out their programs with such a mechanical ruthlessness.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You think nationalisation, antisemitism, warmongering, eugenics and the like are minor differences?

Antisemitism is almost universal amongst alt.right groups and individuals. Mind you, some of a more religious mindset support Israel, while still maintaining a (poorly disguised) hatred for or distrust of Jews. It's certainly that way amongst the groups I listed in my earlier post, and many of the Dominionists/Identitarian Christian groups as well.

Nationalism is pretty much the definition of all groups under the alt.right umbrella.

Warmongering? This is a little more varied, but the majority, especially the religious nutcases, are perfectly happy to wage war against all they see as inferiour; and the Christian groups have a profound desire to see mass warfare in the Middle East as a fulfillment to their worldview. There are also a whole lot of militia groups who fall under the alt.right banner due to their white supremacist beliefs.

Eugenics. Well, what need be said about that, except that the Nazis got most of their ideas about eugenics from American eugenicists and their supporters. The overwhelming majority of alt.right ideologies believe in some form of eugenics, particularly those under the neo-Confederate banner, although the degree varies considerably.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:43 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Seems like a lot of words to tell me I'm right, theprestige.

*Walks away, personifying Danth's Law*
I make a good faith argument, and get this BS back in return.

Okay, let me try with less words so as not to risk confusing you again:

Antifa is wrong.

Antifa's fellow travelers on this board are wrong.

You are wrong.

If Spencer is doing it, he's wrong too.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:44 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm sorry. I was not intending to imply an argument of guilt by association. My argument is that you are guilty of aggressively expanding what it means to be a legitimate target of political violence, for those who advocate political violence.

Ironically, your entire argument over the past few pages has been one of guilt by association.
LoL
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:50 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I make a good faith argument, and get this BS back in return.

Okay, let me try with less words so as not to risk confusing you again:

Antifa is wrong.

Antifa's fellow travelers on this board are wrong.

You are wrong.

If Spencer is doing it, he's wrong too.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get in the way of you playing the victim.

You were crying about what now? I see you say that maybe I could be a little right because the person that coined the phrase WANTED to include everyone that had overlap in their ideology to show that his following was huge.

Then you say the right has delusions of grandeur, which is a ******* massive downplay to their extremely violent nature. You then accuse the side that DOESN'T have a body count of being violent.

If you want I can call your argument complete and total ******** if that would help. I made a very concerted effort to stop swearing, but in all honesty your post is nonsense. Congrats, you built a strawman and kicked the piss out of it. Keep going, let me know when you need a hanky
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:52 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't know what point, but it seems to me that the term was coined by a neo-Nazi, and then promptly co-opted by politically-violent progressives to include a wide range of groups and views that were not part of the original coinage.

ETA: I suppose it's possible that Spencer himself was using an expansionist definition, in order to make his movement seem larger and more popular than it actually is. Perhaps the neo-Nazis and the anti-"nazis" are playing the same dishonest game, from opposite sides of the field.

You suppose it's possible? Perhaps you should actually read Spencer's justification for coining the term, then, since that is exactly what he had in mind. As I noted, it was intended to create a banner under which all white supremacists would gather to form a powerful social and political bloc.

Want to take a guess how many non-neo-Nazi groups showed up at the Unite the Right rally? Hint, it's a very substantial non-zero number. Those groups, and individuals, were more than happy to associate themselves directly with neo-Nazis like Spencer under the greater alt.right umbrella; and he and his cronies certainly didn't condemn them for it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:52 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of course not, it is morally unacceptable to use force on anything less than a total threat to civilization. Isn't that clear? Now we just need to figure out of a little genocide is really a threat to civilization or not.
Having trouble finding the quote where the Vietnamese American guy stood up for "a little genocide," but as a skeptic, I'm confident you must have your sources.
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Old 9th July 2019, 12:54 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Antifa had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech, in Berkeley, a year or more before Charlottesville.

The United States federal government and its spinoffs had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech centuries earlier than that, and was quite happy to perpetuate that normalized violence during the Civil Rights era, at Stonewall, at Kent State and during the entire Vietnam War era, and so on.

Blaming antifa for this just shows either how little you understand of history, or that you're being the hyperpartisan you're accusing others of being.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Antifa is wrong.

Antifa's fellow travelers on this board are wrong.

So you support fascism then? 'Cause if you actually oppose fascism to any degree, and don't support it actively or tacitly, then you're antifa as well. There's a brain-exploding moment for you. Despite your and others attempts to re-define the term to fit your own straw men and well-poisoning, antifa is anyone and everyone who actively opposed fascism in any way. That what it has always meant.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:00 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You were asked how widespread Nazi belief was. You pulled a stat based on a related but different group and were called on it.
You know, even if you decide to consider the set of neo-nazis distinct from the set of white nationalists, then it may very well be the case that the set of neo-nazis turns out to be more widespread than the set of white nationalists because of all the non-white neo-nazis (South American primarily, though also India has a significant number of them).
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:03 PM   #662
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You think nationalisation, antisemitism, warmongering, eugenics and the like are minor differences?
I'm going to assume you meant to say nationalism rather than nationalisation, because if not then you're going to be in for some fun when you find out how the term "privatization" (ie the opposite of nationalisation) even got coined in the first place.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:33 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I see you say that maybe I could be a little right because the person that coined the phrase WANTED to include everyone that had overlap in their ideology to show that his following was huge.
Wanting doesn't make it so. Improperly expanding the definition is improper regardless of motive. It's just as wrong for Spencer to pad his popularity as it is wrong for antifa to pad his popularity as it is wrong for you to pad his popularity.

You seem to be appealing to Spencer's (hypothetical) cynical ploy as validation of your own flawed method. Is that actually the argument you intended?

Quote:
Then you say the right has delusions of grandeur
I said that neo-Nazis (in this context, Spencer and his ilk specifically) have delusions of grandeur. Did you make a typo, or were you actually equating neo-Nazis with "the right"?

Quote:
which is a ******* massive downplay to their extremely violent nature. You then accuse the side that DOESN'T have a body count of being violent.
I was referring specifically to the cynical padding of their popularity. I can't downplay something I wasn't even discussing to begin with.

And there's more to violence than body count. Antifa is in fact very violent. Maybe Spencer is also very violent. I wouldn't know; the only time he seems to make the news is when people are threatening him with violence or inflicting violence on him. I think you'll need to play up Spencer's violence before I can take a stab at downplaying it.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:41 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
LoL : thumbsup :
It's funny because it's true.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:45 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The United States federal government and its spinoffs had already normalized violence as an acceptable response to speech centuries earlier than that, and was quite happy to perpetuate that normalized violence during the Civil Rights era, at Stonewall, at Kent State and during the entire Vietnam War era, and so on.

Blaming antifa for this just shows either how little you understand of history, or that you're being the hyperpartisan you're accusing others of being.




So you support fascism then? 'Cause if you actually oppose fascism to any degree, and don't support it actively or tacitly, then you're antifa as well. There's a brain-exploding moment for you. Despite your and others attempts to re-define the term to fit your own straw men and well-poisoning, antifa is anyone and everyone who actively opposed fascism in any way. That what it has always meant.
Nope. Just as I reject attempts to associate me with Spencer's alt-right, I reject attempts to associate me with the political thugs in Berkeley.
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Old 9th July 2019, 01:55 PM   #666
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Wanting doesn't make it so. Improperly expanding the definition is improper regardless of motive. It's just as wrong for Spencer to pad his popularity as it is wrong for antifa to pad his popularity as it is wrong for you to pad his popularity.

You seem to be appealing to Spencer's (hypothetical) cynical ploy as validation of your own flawed method. Is that actually the argument you intended?
I don't believe he was being cynical. I think he was trying to unite...the right. Which appears to be a haven for people with racist, bigoted and backwards thinking views by giving them a name\platform to get behind.

You just claiming my method is flawed means absolutely nothing to me at all. You're wrong.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I said that neo-Nazis (in this context, Spencer and his ilk specifically) have delusions of grandeur. Did you make a typo, or were you actually equating neo-Nazis with "the right"?
It was a slight typo. As has been said before, not all people on the right are Neo-Nazis, but all Neo-Nazis are on the right.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I was referring specifically to the cynical padding of their popularity. I can't downplay something I wasn't even discussing to begin with.

And there's more to violence than body count. Antifa is in fact very violent. Maybe Spencer is also very violent. I wouldn't know; the only time he seems to make the news is when people are threatening him with violence or inflicting violence on him. I think you'll need to play up Spencer's violence before I can take a stab at downplaying it.
I have never made the claim that Spencer is as violent as Antifa. You're comparing an entire movement, or group of people to a singular individual. This is what you call arguing in good faith? I call ********.

Either way, the alt-right AND Nazi's are way more violent than anyone else and they have shown it time and time again.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:07 PM   #667
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
any conservatives painting the antifa side more violent is absurd in the extreme. This is a stupid game to play. I like what Ricky Gervais had to say in a series of tweets.

and

and


If I criticize antifa, that isn't an endorsement of NAZIsm or the proud boys or of the patriot prayers or of the 3 percenters. I ******* hate these people and so does everybody I know. It is only in Antifa that I run into apologists and sympathizers and so I feel compelled to say something about it. It doesn't matter that the others are worse. So what?
Very well said.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:14 PM   #668
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nazis were fascists so if you want an example of an actual "by the book" fascist movement gaining power and behaving as their claimed ideology said to behave then they are a very useful example.

Could you give me an example of a fascist movement that gained power and was a relatively good state?
Francoist Spain?
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:16 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The lure of vigilantism is strong in this thread.

If anyone had wondered how people who considered themselves good people could be part of lynch mobs, just read this thread.
Yeah, the lynch mob mentality is not confined to the right, as much as some people here would like to believe that.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:22 PM   #670
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And yet there is no evidence of them being death camps, and piles and piles of evidence of them being re-educational facilities. Sorry if the evidence refutes any beliefs you may held, but I am not responsible for that.
Where do you get your information about Gulags? Are any of your sources post-Stalin western sources?
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:25 PM   #671
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Where do you get your information about Gulags? Are any of your sources post-Stalin western sources?
It's just about what you would expect from our resident apololigist for the Soviet Regime...........
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:26 PM   #672
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What is amusing is that 90% of the advocates of violence here would turn tail and run away if they actually got caught up in a violent protest. Being a brave, heroic revolutionary is very easy from behind a computer keyboard.
It's a sort of Left Wing phony Machismo, no better then the similar crap on the right.
And I love the guy who thinks Every violent incident involving someone calling themselves Antifa is the result of an agent provocateur. Just another guy who thinks that the Right has a monopoly on political evil and stupidity.
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Last edited by dudalb; 9th July 2019 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:33 PM   #673
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
If they don't, innocent people get attacked instead.
If they are, there are police for that. We don't need the "protection" of antifa.
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:38 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Where do you get your information about Gulags? Are any of your sources post-Stalin western sources?
Various publications such as Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence published in 1993. Where do you get yours?
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Old 9th July 2019, 02:40 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
If they are, there are police for that. We don't need the "protection" of antifa.
Is this another case of "mobbing and assaults are only ok if my side - cops - does it"? Because even so:

Quote:
Anti-fascists were stabbed at a neo-Nazi rally. Then police tried to charge them

Revealed: California has not prosecuted anyone for the stabbings, but sought hundreds of charges against counter-protesters

California law enforcement pursued criminal charges against eight anti-fascist activists who were stabbed or beaten at a neo-Nazi rally while failing to prosecute anyone for the knife attacks against them, according to police records reviewed by the Guardian.

In addition to the decision not to charge white supremacists or others for stabbings at a far-right rally that left people with critical wounds, police also investigated 100 anti-fascist counter-protesters, recommending more than 500 total criminal charges against them, according to court filings from civil rights attorneys.

{...}
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:52 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nope. Just as I reject attempts to associate me with Spencer's alt-right, I reject attempts to associate me with the political thugs in Berkeley.

And that's your problem. For someone who engages in so much whiny hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about people equating all far-right hardliners with Nazis, you sure do seem to really get off on labeling all anti-fascists as violent thugs. There's a word for that, and I think you know what it is.

And given that labeling all anti-fascists as violent thugs is a favorite tactic of the alt-right...
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Old 9th July 2019, 03:57 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And that's your problem. For someone who engages in so much whiny hand-wringing and pearl-clutching about people equating all far-right hardliners with Nazis, you sure do seem to really get off on labeling all anti-fascists as violent thugs. There's a word for that, and I think you know what it is.

And given that labeling all anti-fascists as violent thugs is a favorite tactic of the alt-right...
When I talk about the violent antifa goons, I am referring to those politically violent goons who perpetrate their violence under the banner of antifa. I don't call myself alt-right, because I don't want to be associated with the neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other deplorables who march under that banner. If you don't want to be associated with the goons in Berkeley, and the goons in Portland, and the goons in Charlottesville, then don't call yourself antifa.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:00 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Francoist Spain?

I'm fairly sure that the trade unions, Basques, non-Castilian Spanish-speakers, women, Muslims, Protestant Christians, and other non-approved and "undesirable" groups that were suppressed, often forcibly, even brutally, by the Franco government would disagree with you. Franco's government saw a huge rollback in civil rights for women and minorities, as well as anyone who wasn't Roman Catholic; and his treatment of the Basque provinces in particular was an atrocity.
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:13 PM   #679
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The ability of some people here to see evil only one one side of the political spectrum is truly astonishing.
When it comes to making people behave in stupid ways driven purely by emotion, religion has nothing on political ideology
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Old 9th July 2019, 04:39 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Is this another case of "mobbing and assaults are only ok if my side - cops - does it"? Because even so:
Why is it most of the time someone posts an event to show the violence of the alt-right, it ends up showing mass violence from counter protesters as well? It seems each example points out the obvious, two groups come to fight and the inevitable happens.

You would think a rational person would be able to place blame on both without being a 'nazi sympathizer'.
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