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Old 10th July 2019, 03:55 PM   #721
luchog
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Given that borders are one of the defining features of a nation, that seems rather implicit in the definition.

Except that it's still not even remotely a defining feature of nationalism, let alone the most defining feature as theprestige claimed. There can be multiple reasons for closed borders, none of which have anything to do with nationalism. Having a nation does not make one nationalistic. Go back and read the definitions again.
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:19 PM   #722
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Yes, there is some overlap. But I like to make distinctions clear.

I'm super not a fan of calling every insurgent or mass murderer a terrorist or everyone accused of sex with minors as pedophiles. We have a tendency to conflate things for extra effect.
I agree with this, and I think it's a real problem in some cases.

Earlier, I referred to the Charlottesville protestors as Nazis, although I noted that they might not call themselves Nazis. In that case, though, I didn't feel very guilty about it. Some of the protestors carried flags which, although they did not have swastikas, had black and white artwork that was clearly reminiscent of Nazi era designs. Others chanted an actual Nazi slogan, "Blood and Soil". Therefore, I didn't feel too bad about simplifying the discussion by calling them "Nazis".


On the other hand, there are an awful lot of people who express a certain low level of racism in their actions (e.g. by moving away from schools where their kids might have to attend with black kids), and a fair number of people who openly express some sort of racist ideas. It would be inaccurate to call these people "Nazis" or "white supremacists", and often the distinction is important. The most obvious effect of that conflation is to alienate fellow citizens, and voters, and possibly push them into the other camp. If you call everyone who agrees with anything that the Proud Boys ever say a "white supremacist", some of those so named will respond with some variation of "If this be white supremacy, then let's make the most of it."
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Old 10th July 2019, 04:55 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree with this, and I think it's a real problem in some cases.

Earlier, I referred to the Charlottesville protestors as Nazis, although I noted that they might not call themselves Nazis. In that case, though, I didn't feel very guilty about it. Some of the protestors carried flags which, although they did not have swastikas, had black and white artwork that was clearly reminiscent of Nazi era designs. Others chanted an actual Nazi slogan, "Blood and Soil". Therefore, I didn't feel too bad about simplifying the discussion by calling them "Nazis".


On the other hand, there are an awful lot of people who express a certain low level of racism in their actions (e.g. by moving away from schools where their kids might have to attend with black kids), and a fair number of people who openly express some sort of racist ideas. It would be inaccurate to call these people "Nazis" or "white supremacists", and often the distinction is important. The most obvious effect of that conflation is to alienate fellow citizens, and voters, and possibly push them into the other camp. If you call everyone who agrees with anything that the Proud Boys ever say a "white supremacist", some of those so named will respond with some variation of "If this be white supremacy, then let's make the most of it."
Low level? Ever heard of 'white flight'? I'd guess more white "liberals" do the fleeing than the white nationalists and racists they claim to abhor.

That's what bugs the **** out of people who have come to hold, shall we say, a realistic/pragmatic view of "open borders", mass immigration and the fantasy of "multiculturalism" - the phoniness of the 'tolerance' of liberals which evaporates the moment they're confronted with the with the reality of what they pretend to "believe in".

The worst are celebrities who virtue-signal for their countries, as if, for e.g., they'll ever get within several miles of a "refugee" in person, except as a photo op.
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Old 10th July 2019, 07:31 PM   #724
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Originally Posted by IsThisTheLife View Post
Low level? Ever heard of 'white flight'? I'd guess more white "liberals" do the fleeing than the white nationalists and racists they claim to abhor.
Suburban white people, mostly, but as Meadmaker says, there is subtle racism many people hold at some level. It's not limited to conservatives and how do you know how many of those fleeing white people are socially liberal? Your attempted appeal to hypocrisy flops.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:15 AM   #725
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
The alt-right in general is for nationalisation?
Nazis. The NAZIS were for nationalising industry and production.

Pay attention.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:18 AM   #726
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I was not in time to see a poster;s response to my "a lot of people here who advocate violence are just interent loudmouths, who would run away from any actual fighting" because it got removed by the mods, but I take it as a sign I pretty much hit my target.
Oh sure, like the edge lord nazis. Just internet loudmouths and not remotely connected to any mass shooting.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:19 AM   #727
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And once again the problem is who decided who is a Nazi and who is not?
Let's be honest;a lot of the people here define Nazis as "anybody who is not as far to the left as I am".
And why is this important when one is making subtle distinctions between flavors of white supremacist? I mean other than not being able to call white supremacists deplorable.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:22 AM   #728
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
So Mob Rule is the way to go?
Give up and enjoy the nazi run state is an option too. I mean you would never give issues to cops just because they are working with the nazis, I get that, but what is someone supposed to do?

For all your statements about the importance of guns in keeping america free you don't seem to actually want them used when it is only nazis as the threat.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:26 AM   #729
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I agree with this, and I think it's a real problem in some cases.

Earlier, I referred to the Charlottesville protestors as Nazis, although I noted that they might not call themselves Nazis. In that case, though, I didn't feel very guilty about it. Some of the protestors carried flags which, although they did not have swastikas, had black and white artwork that was clearly reminiscent of Nazi era designs. Others chanted an actual Nazi slogan, "Blood and Soil". Therefore, I didn't feel too bad about simplifying the discussion by calling them "Nazis".


On the other hand, there are an awful lot of people who express a certain low level of racism in their actions (e.g. by moving away from schools where their kids might have to attend with black kids), and a fair number of people who openly express some sort of racist ideas. It would be inaccurate to call these people "Nazis" or "white supremacists", and often the distinction is important. The most obvious effect of that conflation is to alienate fellow citizens, and voters, and possibly push them into the other camp. If you call everyone who agrees with anything that the Proud Boys ever say a "white supremacist", some of those so named will respond with some variation of "If this be white supremacy, then let's make the most of it."
Does spouting constant white supremacist talking points make one a white supremacist, like say Tucker Carlson?
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:47 AM   #730
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
"Mob Rule" is what we have
You're at least the third poster who seems to be painting the US as a Mad Max-style lawless wasteland. Seems to me like the rule of law is still quite in place.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I provided you a link, which you appear to have ignored.
Except that the link you've provided is irrelevant to what you just responded to. Eugenic isn't about one race being superior to another. That's just racism. Eugenics is about selective breeding and elimination of certain traits from the gene pool. As such your earlier comment about it is just wrong.

Quote:
To provide people who are trying to ignore the argument something to nitpick about instead of actually addressing the point made.
First of all, thanks for responding to an honest question with snark, proving once again that you have zero respect for people you disagree with. Second, I did address it, since I responded, quite correctly, that eugenics wasn't the right word for what you were talking about.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:06 AM   #731
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Yes, there is some overlap. But I like to make distinctions clear.

I'm super not a fan of calling every insurgent or mass murderer a terrorist or everyone accused of sex with minors as pedophiles. We have a tendency to conflate things for extra effect.
To me, when I was posting my statement wrt comparing Nazi ideology to alt-right ideology I looked at it differently than others I guess. Some of us are pretty vague, and some of us require more granular definitions.

It's like dogs. Sometimes I'm at the pet store and I see a room full of dogs and I say, "Look at all the dogs!" They all share the common features of dogs, though you can list them by breed.

When I look at racist, misogynist, violent loudmouths that are putting forth effort to keep others down while mixed in with a bunch of people carrying Nazi flags...well.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:22 AM   #732
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And why is this important when one is making subtle distinctions between flavors of white supremacist? I mean other than not being able to call white supremacists deplorable.
While they're all deplorable, to advocate genocide crosses a line. It's an important distinction for non binary thinkers.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #733
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nazis. The NAZIS were for nationalising industry and production.

Pay attention.

Except, of course, exactly the opposite of that.

There was a great deal of nationalizing of industry by the Weimar government; which was followed by a huge wave of privatization with government regulation when the Nazis took power. Most of the formerly-public companies and services went to supporters and cronies of the Nazi regime. Rather reminiscent of the GOP's current emphasis on privatization and corporate cronyism.

Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany

You really need to familiarize yourself with the history, you'd look much less ignorant if you did.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:31 AM   #734
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
While they're all deplorable, to advocate genocide crosses a line. It's an important distinction for non binary thinkers.

Where do those who advocate repression and enslavement of minorities fall with respect to that line?
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:35 AM   #735
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Do you really think that private businesses in Nazi Germany were independant of the government? The Nazis brought the media and production under their control quite readily.

Quote:
You really need to familiarize yourself with the history, you'd look much less ignorant if you did.
Your only response to any kind of disagreement is to call other people ignorant. It might feel good for the ego, but it doesn't do you any favours, especially when you're wrong.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:38 AM   #736
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Nazis. The NAZIS were for nationalising industry and production.
No they weren't, on the contrary, they set up the first large-scale privatization policies in history. This is why, when the Economist wrote an article on their economic policy, they coined the word "privatization" to describe it in the first place.

ETA: I see I got beaten to it by luchog

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Pay attention.
Oh the irony.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:39 AM   #737
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Where do those who advocate repression and enslavement of minorities fall with respect to that line?
This line is a red herring.

One of the big problems with "antifa" is that they have a lot of difficulty actually finding someone who advocates these things. Now, for reasonable people, the response to this difficulty would be something like, "those advocates, whoever they are, don't seem to be much of a problem; if they actually show their faces we'll deal with it then".

But for antifa, the response is to go find other people to beat up instead.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:40 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
No they weren't, on the contrary, they set up the first large-scale privatization policies in history.
So I'll ask you, too: what's the difference between a company owned by the government and one under its complete control?

I'll even give you the answer: None whatsoever.

I suppose you could say that any ideologue in power would bring these under their control as well, and that's a fair point.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:48 AM   #739
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
When I look at racist, misogynist, violent loudmouths that are putting forth effort to keep others down while mixed in with a bunch of people carrying Nazi flags...well.
Where are you seeing such mixtures?

I assume you're not literally seeing a group of people, some of whom are in the process of keeping others down, while others are carrying Nazi flags.

Obviously if you see a bunch of people grouped together in public, some of them carrying Nazi flags, it's reasonable to assume they're all Nazis.

One big problem I have with your overall methodology is that it seems to depend heavily on artificial groupings being fed to you in your online search results. You end up falling into a guilt-by-association trap, I think.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:50 AM   #740
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So I'll ask you, too: what's the difference between a company owned by the government and one under its complete control?

I'll even give you the answer: None whatsoever.
What makes you think the companies were under complete control of the government?

Quote:
I suppose you could say that any ideologue in power would bring these under their control as well, and that's a fair point.
If you're going to claim that companies are nationalized due to being "under complete control" of the government if, during wartime, their productive capacity is directed at the war effort then you could equally claim that American companies were nationalized during WW2.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:53 AM   #741
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
While they're all deplorable, to advocate genocide crosses a line. It's an important distinction for non binary thinkers.
Ah so enslaving the lesser races is better than expelling them.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #742
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What makes you think the companies were under complete control of the government?
You must be joking.

Quote:
If you're going to claim that companies are nationalized due to being "under complete control" of the government if, during wartime, their productive capacity is directed at the war effort then you could equally claim that American companies were nationalized during WW2.
Indeed. So?
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #743
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You must be joking.



Indeed. So?
So the Nazis didn't really nationalize industry, and even if they did, America did too.

It's a clever hybrid of apology for the Nazi regime and condemnation of the "Nazi" regime in America. A kind of rhetorical anarchy, if you will.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:03 AM   #744
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So the Nazis didn't really nationalize industry, and even if they did, America did too.

It's a clever hybrid of apology for the Nazi regime and condemnation of the "Nazi" regime in America. A kind of rhetorical anarchy, if you will.
Wait, are you talking about me or Caveman?
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #745
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You must be joking.
Not at all. Let me guess, you're also ignorant of the structure of large companies under Nazi Germany? Just let me ask you this then, if the Nazis started out with these companies under their complete control (nationalized under the Weimar republic) then why would they need to privatize them so as to gain favour of the large industrialists if they, by your assertion, had "complete control" over the entire industry (both public and private) anyway?

Quote:
Indeed. So?
So...then you're using terms such as nationalization with a different meaning than the standard meaning, companies are generally not considered nationalized merely because they produce for government contracts.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:28 AM   #746
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wait, are you talking about me or Caveman?
Caveman. It was an anarchist joke, based on a cursory reading of the most recent exchanges between you two.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #747
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Do you really think that private businesses in Nazi Germany were independant of the government? The Nazis brought the media and production under their control quite readily.

Goalpost moving. The businesses were privatized, not nationalized; and then heavily regulated/politicized. Nationalizing means that ownership is taken by the state, not private citizens.

You're really reaching here, verging on redefinition; and doing the exact same things you keep accusing others of.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:33 AM   #748
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So the Nazis didn't really nationalize industry, and even if they did, America did too.

It's a clever hybrid of apology for the Nazi regime and condemnation of the "Nazi" regime in America. A kind of rhetorical anarchy, if you will.


The Nazis didn't nationalize industry, they privatized industry. This is well-established historical fact, which you would be well aware of had you bothered to do some research on the subject. But it seems to be part of tradition on this board for people to make all sorts of assertions without having bothered to do even basic research on the topics of their assertions. A tradition that seems even all the more prevalent in political topics, from "antifa is just as violent as the fascists" to "gulags were death camps" to now "the Nazis nationalized the industry."
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:34 AM   #749
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This line is a red herring.

Projection much?

Quote:
One of the big problems with "antifa" is that they have a lot of difficulty actually finding someone who advocates these things. Now, for reasonable people, the response to this difficulty would be something like, "those advocates, whoever they are, don't seem to be much of a problem; if they actually show their faces we'll deal with it then".

But for antifa, the response is to go find other people to beat up instead.

That's hilarious. A complete and bizarre evasion of the point being made, and you're accusing others of a red herring?

This definitely shows the weakness and hypocrisy of the conservative position here.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #750
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You must be joking.

It's your assertion, it's up to you to support it. You know how this works by now. Your constant evasions have been noted.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:51 AM   #751
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The businesses were privatized, not nationalized; and then heavily regulated/politicized. Nationalizing means that ownership is taken by the state, not private citizens.
Ok I'll concede that. Still, there's little functional differences between such strict regulation and overwatch, and nationalisation,
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:51 AM   #752
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Where are you seeing such mixtures?
The Unite the Right rally and a myriad of other rallies that took place during the attempted protection against the removal of Confederate Monuments.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume you're not literally seeing a group of people, some of whom are in the process of keeping others down, while others are carrying Nazi flags.
Yes, I am literally seeing that. I literally saw it in the case of Charlotesville. You're right though, they weren't held down as much as they were run over with vehicles, and beaten. Including a KKK leader shooting a gun.

Other than that you can see alt-right politicians holding down minorities in several ways from gerrymandering to policy decisions, and so on.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Obviously if you see a bunch of people grouped together in public, some of them carrying Nazi flags, it's reasonable to assume they're all Nazis.
Strawman. I never called them all Nazi's. I said they all shared the same ideological view of the world. After how many posts and we're still having to make this distinction?

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
One big problem I have with your overall methodology is that it seems to depend heavily on artificial groupings being fed to you in your online search results. You end up falling into a guilt-by-association trap, I think.
One problem I have is people not knowing the definition of "guilt by association". The definition is:

Quote:
guilt ascribed to someone not because of any evidence but because of their association with an offender.
I hilited the important part. There is plenty of evidence, some listed by my opposition, to compare the two. Words mean things.
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Old 11th July 2019, 08:53 AM   #753
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Your constant evasions have been noted.
And your continued predilection for labeling directly addressing points as "evasion" is well-documented.
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Old 11th July 2019, 09:51 AM   #754
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Does spouting constant white supremacist talking points make one a white supremacist, like say Tucker Carlson?
I think I've listened to Tucker Carlson for a total of about 10 minutes, so I can't really tell you what he's like.

As for the others. what we have in America today is that a whole lot of things get labelled "white supremacist talking points", even though they have nothing to do with white supremacy. However, the cool kids all know that it is "really" all about white supremacy, so it's a "white supremacist talking point." The best example is "Make America Great Again." Wearing a MAGA hat, or supporting Donald Trump, does not make someone a white supremacist, or even a racist, but I'm sure that there are people who are reading this who disagree.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:08 AM   #755
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Where do those who advocate repression and enslavement of minorities fall with respect to that line?
At a point less than those who advocate genocide, but a point greater than ordinary bigots who don't advocate repression and enslavement.

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Old 11th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #756
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah so enslaving the lesser races is better than expelling them.
Expelling? Genocide isn't expulsion. These are different concepts. Please, tidy up your strawmen.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:21 AM   #757
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
While they're all deplorable, to advocate genocide crosses a line. It's an important distinction for non binary thinkers.
I kind of agree. But in the end mass murder is mass murder whether it is done in the name of race or in the name of political or economic ideology.
I don't know if you could apply genocide to what the Pol Pot regime did..there mass murder was based on economic theory....but in the end it was just as evil as murder for reasons of race or ethnicity.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:22 AM   #758
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Expelling? Genocide isn't expulsion. These are different concepts. Please, tidy up your strawmen.
Though expulsion can easily turn into de facto genocide.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:25 AM   #759
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Racism is real and a very serious problem, but that does not mean that the term "Racism" is not used as a label to discredit your political opponent.
Communism was real in the McCarthy era;that does not mean everybody Tail Gunner Joe accused of being a Communist was one.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:29 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ok I'll concede that. Still, there's little functional differences between such strict regulation and overwatch, and nationalisation,
THIS.
There is little practical difference between a government taking over a business and an government regulating it so closely that the business owners need to get approval for anything more important then rearranging the office furniture.

I think you need some regulation to avoid abuses, but I am not a big fan of the government taking over and running businesses. Generally they do a pretty crappy job of it.This is where I disagree with a lot of "progressives" many of whom, I think, have a gut dislike of private business and want everything ran on a non profit basis. Won't work with human beings.
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