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Old 1st July 2019, 01:46 PM   #161
plague311
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unironically? I'm sure there were.

---

I'm curious: Do you have a good source for the original quote?
Hmm? For what original quote? I just said that, so you're technically looking at it.
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Old 1st July 2019, 01:57 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Unironically? I'm sure there were.

---

I'm curious: Do you have a good source for the original quote?

The "very fine people" quote? Seriously?

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/185179...harlottesville
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Old 1st July 2019, 01:59 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How does beating up Andy Ngo fit into that?

Depends on what he was doing. I wasn't there, so I don't what agitating or avoiding-involvement went on. If he wasn't actually there agitating and inciting as the rest of them were, then he didn't deserve to get beaten. Given his history, however, of right-wing agitation and activism (despite his claims to the contrary), I am suspicious that he was there strictly as a "journalist".
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:02 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Did you miss the whole Charlottesville debacle?

I am confident I have watched a lot more video of the Charlottesville debacle than you have.


I would not agree with Mr. Trump that there were good people on both sides, but I would certainly say that there were a lot of bad people on both sides. However, that was covered in a different thread.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:02 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The "very fine people" quote? Seriously?

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/185179...harlottesville
That piece is long on discussion, and short on what was actually said. In fact, as far as I can tell, that piece doesn't actually cite the original statement at all. They just refer to it, without even linking it. They link other stuff they refer to. They even embed a video of Trump talking about it later. But the actual statement itself? Nowhere at that link.

I mean...

Seriously?
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:12 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That piece is long on discussion, and short on what was actually said. In fact, as far as I can tell, that piece doesn't actually cite the original statement at all. They just refer to it, without even linking it. They link other stuff they refer to. They even embed a video of Trump talking about it later. But the actual statement itself? Nowhere at that link.

I mean...

Seriously?
Oh THAT quote. Yeah, the Atlantic had it in quotes:

Quote:
“I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me,” he said.

“You had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists,” Trump said. “The press has treated them absolutely unfairly.”

“You also had some very fine people on both sides,” he said.
I'm not sure that in context it's going to be much better.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:13 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That piece is long on discussion, and short on what was actually said. In fact, as far as I can tell, that piece doesn't actually cite the original statement at all. They just refer to it, without even linking it. They link other stuff they refer to. They even embed a video of Trump talking about it later. But the actual statement itself? Nowhere at that link.

I mean...

Seriously?

I mean...

Do you think that everything everyone, even a president says to reporters is televised or otherwise recorded on video?

Seriously?
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:16 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So it’s important that we all get up and defend Ngo's freedom to spread lies!
What would you say is the appropriate response to his opinion piece in WSJ?

(Assuming that simply refuting it in print isn't enough.)

I'm under the impression that a few people in my feeds would argue that maybe a punch in the head is really the way to go here, but I wouldn't impute that view to anyone in this forum, because that would be insulting.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:25 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Do you think that everything everyone, even a president says to reporters is televised or otherwise recorded on video?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:27 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I mean...

Do you think that everything everyone, even a president says to reporters is televised or otherwise recorded on video?

Seriously?
I do not. Obviously it must have been recorded somewhere, though, otherwise we wouldn't know about it and you wouldn't keep repeating it. So. Where was it recorded?
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:31 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
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I AGREE
Thanks!

Here's the transcript:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/15/read...onference.html

And here's what President Trump actually said:
You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
It's pretty clear from the preceding passages of the transcript that he's is saying that there were very bad, violent people on both sides of that incident, but there were also fine people on both sides. Somehow the Fake News Progressives have traduced this into President Trump saying that violent white supremacists are fine people, even though he explicitly excludes them from that statement, in the statement itself.

Carry on.

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Old 1st July 2019, 02:32 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks!

Here's the transcript:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/15/read...onference.html

And here's what President Trump actually said:
You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
Carry on.
So what was your point again?
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:37 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
So what was your point again?
Sorry, I accidentally truncated my point when hitting submit. Reload the page and the complete version of my post should be visible to you.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:42 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Oh THAT quote. Yeah, the Atlantic had it in quotes:



I'm not sure that in context it's going to be much better.
Turns out the Atlantic isn't your friend. Or maybe it is, in a "friends like these..." sort of way.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:42 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Thanks!

Here's the transcript:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/15/read...onference.html

And here's what President Trump actually said:
You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.
It's pretty clear from the preceding passages of the transcript that he's is saying that there were very bad, violent people on both sides of that incident, but there were also fine people on both sides. Somehow the Fake News Progressives have traduced this into President Trump saying that violent white supremacists are fine people, even though he explicitly excludes them from that statement, in the statement itself.

Carry on.
Now we just have to find out where the people that were on the "unite the right" side that weren't Neo-Cons, Nazi's, Nazi sympathizers, or some shade there of, is that possible? I haven't seen many images of Johnny Q. Taxpayer just chilling at the event.

Is that what you're implying? Maybe I'm missing something because I didn't see any first amendment activists or anything like that there. I'm happy to be proven wrong though.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Turns out the Atlantic isn't your friend. Or maybe it is, in a "friends like these..." sort of way.
I provided the quote you were looking for with as much context as I felt was deserved from a source I figured you wouldn't argue with.
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Old 1st July 2019, 02:47 PM   #176
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One of the sides was a coalition of nazis, neo-Confederates, patriot militias, the ******* Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacists. Which of those groups has the fine people?
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Old 1st July 2019, 03:21 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Now we just have to find out where the people that were on the "unite the right" side that weren't Neo-Cons, Nazi's, Nazi sympathizers, or some shade there of, is that possible? I haven't seen many images of Johnny Q. Taxpayer just chilling at the event.

Is that what you're implying? Maybe I'm missing something because I didn't see any first amendment activists or anything like that there. I'm happy to be proven wrong though.



I provided the quote you were looking for with as much context as I felt was deserved from a source I figured you wouldn't argue with.
Maybe Trump was wrong about there being fine people on both sides, in addition to the very bad people he explicitly acknowledged. It wouldn't be the first time he was wrong about event attendance.

But.

He was right that there were very bad people there. And he was right that the very bad people were not very fine people.

I'm not trying to imply anything. I'm saying outright that it's clear from the transcript that Trump was actually saying the opposite of what some people pretend he saying, and that other people now naively believe he was saying.

Even you went with the Atlantic quote, even though it truncated exactly that part of the statement that reverses the widely-understood meaning of the bit that they keep. Even you thought that was as much context as the statement deserved. You've spent the past two years believing what you were told about the truncated statement, instead of going back to the video or the transcript and seeing for yourself what was actually said.

I hope now you understand a least a little bit what I'm getting at, when I say the Atlantic is not your friend.

---

And please, don't choose this hill to die on. There's plenty of reasons to vilify Trump, without having to depend on deceptive edits and wilful misrepresentation. You're better than this.
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Old 1st July 2019, 04:04 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Adjusted to align better with my answer.

My answer is: It depends where you're talking about. In Germany, the fascists won. In Russia, the communists. In the US, both sides were shrugged off (though the communists achieved a toehold in popular culture that they still cling to even now).

In a lot of places, it wasn't even the fascists. The communists were just fighting whatever the established order was in the country, if it wasn't already communism. In some countries, even if it was already communism.
Yes, in Charlottesville you could see all those hammers n' sickles on the protesters' shirts and shields. Just as many as the nazis were displaying their symbols on theirs!!!
Oooh! I bet some of them wore Che Guevara shirts! Treason!
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Old 1st July 2019, 04:17 PM   #179
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God is like clockwork.

Once the debate gets into trying to actually dive into any complex issue, everyone scrambles for something trump related to talk about to make themselves feel more confidant in their opinion.
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Old 1st July 2019, 04:19 PM   #180
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Rent free in people's heads.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:33 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Now we just have to find out where the people that were on the "unite the right" side that weren't Neo-Cons
I doubt anyone involved in "unite the right" was a neo-con. What do you think neo-cons are?
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:41 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I doubt anyone involved in "unite the right" was a neo-con. What do you think neo-cons are?
A bad word that people they like use in a negative way.

Or

One step away from nazis but close enough they shouldn't be covered under assault laws.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:46 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The guy on the right is wearing a "Rose City Antifa" shirt.
Me wearing the playing strip of my favourite football team doesn't make me a professional footballer. Me wearing a Darth Vader T-shirt doesn't make me Darth Vader. Also, he's not wearing the official bleeding-heart liberal latte-sipping weakling Antifa black uniform and battle-gear. So proof of nothing.
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Old 1st July 2019, 07:51 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This board has taught me to find a girl that looks at me the way leftists look at violence, so there's that.

Is that an accurate description of your position? You like violence against your opponents? Probably not. That's probably a gross misrepresentation of what you really believe. But that's exactly what you're doing here, presenting a gross misrepresentation of your opponents.

You are capable of making better arguments than this. I've seen it before. But you're failing badly here.
You're looking for a girl who finds you abhorrent?
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:05 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Portland Antifa are pretty well organized. I heard them interviewed on a podcast a few months ago, and they didn't strike me as a bunch of disparate groups.

Note that capital A. Rose City Antifa.
There ya go. So you want to get together with the OP and help him draft the "Let's Declare Rose City Antifa a Terrorist Organization". Get that over to the UN and the DoJ and everyone will feel better. All you then have to show is where their mission statement or material says they're for terrorism.

Of course, you'll have to first get past the language police. You know, the right wing apologists who insist that you actually show where they say that they are for Terrorism. Terrorism, you know... like TERRORIZING civilian populations. Seems to me like they're terrorizing Patriot Prayer, the Proud Boys and countless alt-right armchair quarterbacks.

And then you have to subpoena their membership lists and show that the perps on Saturday were RCA members and not "Hooligans For Bernie", "Red Spring", "Gamers For Fair Play" or any other such organization.

The OP wasn't suggesting that this particular antifa group be outlawed, but that it's time to declare Antifa as terrorists.

But at least you gave it a try.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:13 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I doubt anyone involved in "unite the right" was a neo-con. What do you think neo-cons are?
I'm guessing they meant neo-Confederates, although neo-con usually refers to neoconservatives, which is another thing entirely.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:22 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm guessing they meant neo-Confederates, although neo-con usually refers to neoconservatives, which is another thing entirely.
I'm guessing they meant neo-conservative, and are actively promoting conflation of anyone to the right of them and neo-Nazis.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:30 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Can we name all bigots as terrorists?

You and folks like you have been giving it your best effort.

Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot nuance is suddenly a thing. Almost like you view yourself as human. .. and the bigots as something else.
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Hilited.... this should be easy. Please show me where I recommended that we name all bigots as terrorists.

Or you could retract your misrepresentation of my position.

Or you will be shown to be a liar.
Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Hi, Sadhatter. Good to see you posting in the thread again.

In case you missed it, your previous post was given a very basic challenge. Now, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I've already placed a substantial wager on which outcome will be shown as true. So hurry up and respond. There's a lot of money on the line!
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
To engage in said test I would have to violate forum rules on cross thread posting. So no I will not get a yellow card for you.

I think my point is obvious without getting myself an infraction thank you.
Sadly (or sadlyhatterly) you opted for the third choice.... shown yourself to be a liar.

How hard is it to admit that you were just shooting your mouth off and had no knowledge on which to base your slander? There's no rule in the MA about cross-posting. There's a directive to not import arguments from other threads. If you actually had a post where I said that all bigots should be classified as terrorists, you would show it. (Further, one of my dedicated fanboyz would be delighted to show it for you.)

It doesn't exist.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:41 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm guessing they meant neo-conservative, and are actively promoting conflation of anyone to the right of them and neo-Nazis.
But neo-Confederates were actually among those at the Unite the Right rally, not neo-conservatives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unite_the_Right_rally

Quote:
The Unite the Right rally[4] was a white supremacist[5][6][7][8] rally that occurred in Charlottesville, Virginia, from August 11 to 12, 2017.[9][10] Protesters were members of the far-right and included self-identified members of the alt-right,[11] neo-Confederates,[12] neo-fascists,[13] white nationalists,[14] neo-Nazis,[15] Klansmen,[16] and various right-wing militias.[17] The marchers chanted racist and antisemitic[citation needed] slogans, carried semi-automatic rifles, Nazi and neo-Nazi symbols (such as the swastika, Odal rune, Black Sun, and Iron Cross), the Valknut, Confederate battle flags, Deus Vult crosses, flags and other symbols of various past and present anti-Muslim and antisemitic groups.[18][8][9][19][20][21][22] Within the Charlottesville area, the rally is often known as A12[23] or 8/12.[24] The organizers' stated goals included unifying the American white nationalist movement[11] and opposing the removal of the a statue of Robert E. Lee from Charlottesville's Lee Park.[21][25]
So neo-Confederates were among the attendees, but not neo-conservatives.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:46 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm guessing they meant neo-Confederates, although neo-con usually refers to neoconservatives, which is another thing entirely.
Neoconfederates would make sense, although it's bad usage to abbreviate as "Neo-Con" because of the confusion it causes.
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Old 1st July 2019, 08:52 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Neoconfederates would make sense, although it's bad usage to abbreviate as "Neo-Con" because of the confusion it causes.
Particularly when even the people who disparage them can't figure out who the **** they are. We have a new thinking-man's reactionary on the boards who thinks the NeoCons are frustrated Trotskyites.

They're actually a catchall handy group. Lefties hate 'em because they're warmongers who claim to be former lefties. Righties hate 'em because the new (Alt) right are isolationists and don' wan' no furrin intanglements.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:18 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Depends on what he was doing. I wasn't there, so I don't what agitating or avoiding-involvement went on. If he wasn't actually there agitating and inciting as the rest of them were, then he didn't deserve to get beaten. Given his history, however, of right-wing agitation and activism (despite his claims to the contrary), I am suspicious that he was there strictly as a "journalist".
So the hilite is grounds for the assault? Not sure why it is so hard to just say, yes, shouldn't have hit him. Seems his mere presence agitated and incited the violence. Doesn't appear anything extra was required.
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Old 1st July 2019, 10:18 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Depends on what he was doing. I wasn't there, so I don't what agitating or avoiding-involvement went on. If he wasn't actually there agitating and inciting as the rest of them were, then he didn't deserve to get beaten. Given his history, however, of right-wing agitation and activism (despite his claims to the contrary), I am suspicious that he was there strictly as a "journalist".
I see. He was asking for it. Isn't that what you are trying to say?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 12:08 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
yes he is a journalist and that is precisely why he was targeted and attacked. Not because he is a member or supporter of the Proud Boys, not because he is a white supremacist or NAZI or a fascist, he was attacked because he was already well known to antifa prior to this event because of history as a journalist and blogger.
No. He's a guy with a blog. That's not the same as being a journalist. He also happens to join up with the Proud Boys whenever they come to Portland to fight.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:23 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. He's a guy with a blog. That's not the same as being a journalist. He also happens to join up with the Proud Boys whenever they come to Portland to fight.
How do you define journalist?

- An individual reporting on events?

- Someone anointed by a corporation?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 03:09 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm guessing they meant neo-conservative, and are actively promoting conflation of anyone to the right of them and neo-Nazis.
Given the putative nature of the protest (to protect a statue of a Confederate general) why would you prefer neo-con to mean neo-conservative rather than neo-confederate? Whilst I often disagree with you theprestige I think you are usually honest, and honesty in this case surely falls on the side of the neo-confederate definition.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:23 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
No. He's a guy with a blog. That's not the same as being a journalist.
Why do you think that's even relevant? Do you think journalists (however you choose to define them) deserve protections that the rest of us plebes don't?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 07:58 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Sadly (or sadlyhatterly) you opted for the third choice.... shown yourself to be a liar.

How hard is it to admit that you were just shooting your mouth off and had no knowledge on which to base your slander? There's no rule in the MA about cross-posting. There's a directive to not import arguments from other threads. If you actually had a post where I said that all bigots should be classified as terrorists, you would show it. (Further, one of my dedicated fanboyz would be delighted to show it for you.)

It doesn't exist.
Trying to bait me into a yellow card is off topic and kinda silly. Not taking the chance and your opinions on anyone right of Guevara are obvious to anyone likely even your " fanboyz".
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:04 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Trying to bait me into a yellow card is off topic and kinda silly. Not taking the chance and your opinions on anyone right of Guevara are obvious to anyone likely even your " fanboyz".
Oh come now. I gave you the option of backing up your claim through a private message. So far, you have not taken the opportunity. You may think this strategy of I will accuse you of nefarious deeds and not back them up because I'm just not allowed to works in your favor, but you'd be mistaken.

Either validate your accusation, or retract it. It's just the honest thing to do.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 08:07 AM   #200
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Right wing protesters

Left wing - mostly antifa-ish mix

There are also some photos of just regular 'left wing' protesters that seem to be decently numbered and just regular people, no protective gear etc. separate from the other group.

Impression from the pictures and updates from people on the ground pretty much match my initial view. As much as a few posters here seem to position 'antifa' as protectors, definitely seem to be antagonizers in general looking for a fight.

Another reason the whole "they are egging/milkshaking to humiliate" schtick doesn't sit well with me. It's a means to entice a fight, not a deterrent to violence.
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