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Old 21st July 2016, 01:14 PM   #1
ChristianProgressive
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Sometimes Obama gets it right (apologizes to slighted Marine guard)

Obama has a bit of a tin-ear on occasion doing things that needlessly piss off and enflame people ("bitter clingers", lecturing police about brutality at a memorial service, etc).

But once in a rare while he realizes he's done something wrong and makes up for it, such as when he recently forgot protocol and didn't return a Marine's salute while boarding Marine One. Stopping in the middle of what he was doing, he made sure to correct his error.

http://social-hut.com/president-obam...ne-so-touching

Edited by Agatha:  Some people are reporting malware from the above link; my AVG is not reporting any problem but please only click the link at your own risk and make sure you have up-to-date virus protection.

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Old 21st July 2016, 01:26 PM   #2
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If anyone thinks Obama has a tin-ear, and "needlessly piss(es) off and [i]nflame(s) people", then boy, what fun that same thin-skinned person is going to have with Trump.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:28 PM   #3
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There is a virus in the link posted above.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:36 PM   #4
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How long does the custom of the presidential salute go back?

Here's why I ask.

A lot of people think that as commander-in-chief, the President is the nation's highest ranking military man. That's not actually correct. The point of putting the President in charge of the armed forces was that a civilian was directing the military.

And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.

I remember when Reagan started doing it, people made a big deal about it, but he was the first President of my adult life, so it may have just been the first time I noticed.

The answer to this is not incredibly important, and I'm not trying to make a political point pro or con of any given President. I'm just interested in historical trivia and obscure ceremonial stuff.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:39 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If anyone thinks Obama has a tin-ear, and "needlessly piss(es) off and [i]nflame(s) people",
He absolutely does.

Quote:
then boy, what fun that same thin-skinned person is going to have with Trump.
Obama has a thin skin. That's the point. And yes, Trump is remarkably thin-skinned too, and will piss off people left and right as well. It's not one or the other, they're both like that.
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Old 21st July 2016, 01:46 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jungle Jim View Post
There is a virus in the link posted above.
I think the issue is with with malware in one of its advertising partner links.

I'd think twice before following the link - it's a redirect to one of those sites that continually opens a JS alert saying you are infected.
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Old 21st July 2016, 02:40 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.

I remember when Reagan started doing it, people made a big deal about it, but he was the first President of my adult life, so it may have just been the first time I noticed.
President Reagan was a military veteran, having served in the USAAF during WW-II (he fought the Battle of Hollywood). As such he retained the privilege.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
President Reagan was a military veteran, having served in the USAAF during WW-II (he fought the Battle of Hollywood). As such he retained the privilege.
Was he an officer? If not, there's no saluting done.

(I don't know if he was. I did see one of the training films he made, though. The title was "Jap Zero".)

Also, do active duty enlisted men salute discharged officers?
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:36 PM   #9
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I looked it up.

Ronald Reagan started it.

And yes, Reagan was in the military.

So were Carter, Ford, Kennedy, Eisenhower. I don't know about Johnson or Nixon. I don't think so. None of them saluted. Nor did any of the other presidents before them. The president is a civilian. Civilians don't salute.

Well, now they do, because people would put them down if they didn't, but according to protocol, they really shouldn't.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Was he an officer? If not, there's no saluting done.

(I don't know if he was. I did see one of the training films he made, though. The title was "Jap Zero".)

Also, do active duty enlisted men salute discharged officers?
Not even former General Eisenhower returned salutes as president. It only started with Reagan.

Active duty enlisted only salute active duty officers, Medal of Honor recipients, and the president.
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Old 21st July 2016, 03:46 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If anyone thinks Obama has a tin-ear, and "needlessly piss(es) off and [i]nflame(s) people", then boy, what fun that same thin-skinned person is going to have with Trump.
Trump being worse doesn't make Obama's behavior more palatable, really.
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Old 21st July 2016, 04:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Trump being worse doesn't make Obama's behavior more palatable, really.
But it does make it HUMONGOUSLY funnier.

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Old 21st July 2016, 05:09 PM   #13
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How many years does it take to become "protocol"? 30 enough?

On the other hand, the Pres is so many levels above the Marine, he can do whatever he wants. Like the way God hasn't answered any of my prayers either.
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:26 PM   #14
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I thought whether you saluted or not also had to do with whether you were wearing a uniform at the time?
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Old 21st July 2016, 05:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I looked it up.

Ronald Reagan started it.

And yes, Reagan was in the military.

So were Carter, Ford, Kennedy, Eisenhower. I don't know about Johnson or Nixon. I don't think so. None of them saluted. Nor did any of the other presidents before them. The president is a civilian. Civilians don't salute.

Well, now they do, because people would put them down if they didn't, but according to protocol, they really shouldn't.

Both President Nixon and President L.B. Johnson served in the Navy during WWII. I believe (but am not completely sure) they both started in the reserves and then were activated during the war.

Edit: Yes, wikipedia says I'm right about their starting in the naval reserve. A lot of former navy guys. Presidents Kennedy, Carter, and Bush as well. Clinton, draft dodging hippy, was the first president in a long time (since Roosevelt, I believe) not to have served in the military.

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Old 21st July 2016, 06:10 PM   #16
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H.W. Bush also served in WWII, but since he got shot down like McCain, he's a loser. According to some guy who's about to give a speech.
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Old 21st July 2016, 06:12 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
H.W. Bush also served in WWII, but since he got shot down like McCain, he's a loser. According to some guy who's about to give a speech.
Yes, but he saluted, because he came after Reagan.
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Old 21st July 2016, 06:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Also, do active duty enlisted men salute discharged officers?
In some circumstances, yes. For example, while the retired or honorably discharged officer is in uniform for a ceremony such as an award presentation, military wedding, retirement or funeral.
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
In some circumstances, yes. For example, while the retired or honorably discharged officer is in uniform for a ceremony such as an award presentation, military wedding, retirement or funeral.
So if in uniform (appropriately), then there's a salute, even if not currently serving.

I noticed that the color guard saluted my father in law's casket, and he was only a PFC. I guess you get one salute per lifetime even if you aren't an officer or medal winner. (We weren't sure that he would have wanted the military honors, really. He spent World War II playing the saxophone at USO shows, after doing everything he could to first avoid the draft and then avoid combat, but he talked about playing for Bob Hope and as the warmup band for Glenn Miller a lot, so we decided it was an important part of his life.)
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Old 21st July 2016, 08:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
So if in uniform (appropriately), then there's a salute, even if not currently serving.

I noticed that the color guard saluted my father in law's casket, and he was only a PFC. I guess you get one salute per lifetime even if you aren't an officer or medal winner. (We weren't sure that he would have wanted the military honors, really. He spent World War II playing the saxophone at USO shows, after doing everything he could to first avoid the draft and then avoid combat, but he talked about playing for Bob Hope and as the warmup band for Glenn Miller a lot, so we decided it was an important part of his life.)
That's correct. Saluting is not just enlisted saluting officers. Officer to officer as well (junior saluting first), rendering honors to heads of state, and, of course, saluting the flag. In the case of your father, a salute was quite proper. The passing of anyone who served honorably rates a ceremonial salute.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:27 AM   #21
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It's been a while since I was in the Navy but I think I still remember the basic rules for saluting.

1) You are only supposed to salute when "covered", i.e., when wearing your cover, which is what we call the hat. You only wear your cover when outdoors, and when in uniform, you must also have your cover on when outdoors. You never salute when wearing civilian clothes. Nor do you salute somebody who is not in uniform.

Presidents don't generally wear hats or covers either indoors or outdoors, so really they shouldn't be saluting or returning salutes (since nobody is above the president, there is no one for him to salute, but it's kind of awkward when you are saluted to not return a salute). The person saluting (the lower-ranked person) is not supposed to drop the salute until it is returned. Which is another reason why it is kind of awkward to not return a salute. So I guess for presidents and nobody else, you can return a salute without a cover or a uniform.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:22 AM   #22
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First, sorry about the virus warnings. I don't get one there for some reason.

Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?

Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 07:09 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?
Yes, military personnel salute the President because he is their commander. The question is whether the President should salute back. It used to be that the President did not. Reagan changed that, and since then Presidents do salute.

I don't have a problem with either tradition. If a president wants to change that, the appropriate time to do so is probably at the start of his term, and he should probably make a public announcement of the change, and the reasons for it. Obama doesn't seem interested in changing it, so if he's saluting, he should do so consistently. I don't consider it a huge deal if he forgets once, but if he does, he should apologize. He has done so, so that matter is basically closed.

Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military, and he uses divisiveness as a deliberate tactic, but this specific incident is a nothingburger.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 08:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
First, sorry about the virus warnings. I don't get one there for some reason.

Second, as the president is (at least nominally) part of the Chain of Command, wouldn't that render him salute-worthy?

Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.
A real uniter would have conceded more to the racists?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 08:41 AM   #25
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Off the wall question: what would be the response if some president at some point refused to salute, and justified it on the fact that "I did not serve in the military, and, as a civilian, am not qualified or worthy to be saluting those who are. I have too much respect for our military to think that I deserve to participate in military activities. I am the commander-in-chief, but I am a civilian."

Could someone pull it off?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:36 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military
That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 09:44 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Off the wall question: what would be the response if some president at some point refused to salute, and justified it on the fact that "I did not serve in the military, and, as a civilian, am not qualified or worthy to be saluting those who are. I have too much respect for our military to think that I deserve to participate in military activities. I am the commander-in-chief, but I am a civilian."

Could someone pull it off?
While customs and courtesies to the President are covered by regulation and tradition for military members, there is no similar regulation imposed on the President. Even a violation of tradition, not covered by specific regulation, is a violation; "Disrespect to a superior." For the President there is precedent and tradition, which are constantly evolving. Some aspect of Sovereign Immunity applies in this area. The Presidents' behavior (so long as it is not illegal) is up to the President.

Last edited by Pope130; 22nd July 2016 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 10:47 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
While customs and courtesies to the President are covered by regulation and tradition for military members, there is no similar regulation imposed on the President. Even a violation of tradition, not covered by specific regulation, is a violation; "Disrespect to a superior." For the President there is precedent and tradition, which are constantly evolving. Some aspect of Sovereign Immunity applies in this area. The Presidents' behavior (so long as it is not illegal) is up to the President.
I think the question was more: Could anyone pull it off without creating a massive outcry from the pseudo-patriots and pigeon-hawks of "Impeach! Assassinate!".
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:21 AM   #29
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Puppycow and Ziggurat's posts most matched my memory of this issue, but there's a bit more to it, as this politifact post (with video of Pres. Eisenhower returning salutes as a civilian, albeit on special occasions):

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...ower-saluted-/

Regardless of being commander-in-chief and possible past military service, the President is a civilian. Pres. Eisenhower was a civilian (Pres. Kennedy restored him to the rank of General of the Army). So long as the intent is not to be rude, whether the President returns a salute or not, I don't see the big deal (I can understand why politically partisan people make a big deal of it, on either side...).
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:22 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.
I thought he was mostly joking until he repeated it.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:23 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by GodMark2 View Post
I think the question was more: Could anyone pull it off without creating a massive outcry from the pseudo-patriots and pigeon-hawks of "Impeach! Assassinate!".
Yep. And "he hates the military!!!"

My thought is if the president were to do it with proper humility, of "As a civilian, I am not worthy to participate in this military custom", would that deter some criticism? Although I'm sure it would be interpreted as a slap against St. Reagan, which might be the biggest objection.

But would actual military people complain?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:31 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I thought he was mostly joking until he repeated it.
Oh. Hrm.

I'd ask what sort of mental gymnastics one would have to go through to reach that conclusion, but I will probably just end up being called a bunch of names.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:44 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
How long does the custom of the presidential salute go back?

Here's why I ask.

A lot of people think that as commander-in-chief, the President is the nation's highest ranking military man. That's not actually correct. The point of putting the President in charge of the armed forces was that a civilian was directing the military.

And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.

I remember when Reagan started doing it, people made a big deal about it, but he was the first President of my adult life, so it may have just been the first time I noticed.

The answer to this is not incredibly important, and I'm not trying to make a political point pro or con of any given President. I'm just interested in historical trivia and obscure ceremonial stuff.
You're correct, and iirc Reagan was the first POTUS to return salutes.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 11:57 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
But it does make it HUMONGOUSLY funnier.

True statement, that.

ETA: Not so true if he wins though. Although I'm not sure Clinton winning is any better. I'm sad. How are CA's immigration policies?
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Old 22nd July 2016, 12:01 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
nothingburger.
I like this term.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 04:50 PM   #36
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Quote:
And since the President is a civilian, he shouldn't salute. Civilians don't salute military people, and soldiers don't salute civilians.
If that were true, they wouldn't salute the president, but they do.

While not the most pressing item of news on the docket, it's far from "nothingburger" to see him get something right for once when it comes to showing respect.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:30 PM   #37
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According to the web site I found first when looking up presidential salutes, Reagan was the first president to return the salute. Some congressman or other (Republican, but I don't remember who) was somewhat concerned about the protocol involved, and contacted the Marine Corps Officer In Charge of All Sorts of Tiny Details Who Would Know That Sort of Thing. (Not his actual title, but it was a real office specifically dedicated to protocols, ceremonies, and such) The congressman was given the answer, "He's the Commander in Chief. He can do whatever he wants."

No official confirmation is available for the veracity of that story.
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Old 22nd July 2016, 05:50 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That actually made me laugh out loud.

Well, chuckle softly. I am in the office.
I didn't chuckle but I did have a WTF moment.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 09:02 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ChristianProgressive View Post
Lastly on the issue of Obama's dialogues and intentions. I suppose you could argue he's a "uniter" in the sense that he united everyone who opposed him and everyone who agreed with him into two polarized and increasingly radicalized groups. Both the revived militia movement and the anti-LEO assassins are in large part products of his pronouncements.

As an office that is supposed to represent all of the citizen of the US, that does not go down in my book as a positive accomplishment.
Please just stop.
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Old 23rd July 2016, 09:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist with a contempt for much of the country and little respect for the military, and he uses divisiveness as a deliberate tactic...
In the fevered imaginations of those who should probably pop an aspirin and go lie down.
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Last edited by Regnad Kcin; 23rd July 2016 at 09:08 AM.
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