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Old 8th January 2019, 05:47 PM   #1
arthwollipot
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Woman in Vegetative State for 10+ Years Gives Birth

Hacienda HealthCare CEO resigns after vegetative patient gives birth in Phoenix

Quote:
The chief executive of a private healthcare facility in Phoenix has resigned after a woman in a vegetative state recently gave birth, putting the spotlight on the safety of long-term care settings for patients who are severely disabled or incapacitated.

The decision was unanimously accepted by the provider's board of directors.

Local news website Azfamily.com first reported the woman, who had been in a vegetative state for more than 10 years after a near-drowning, delivered a baby on December 29.

Her identity has not been reported, and it is not known if she has a family or a guardian.

It is also unclear if staff members at the Hacienda de Los Angeles facility were unaware of the pregnancy until the birth.
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Old 8th January 2019, 06:11 PM   #2
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A Miracle!
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Old 8th January 2019, 06:23 PM   #3
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No, not really.
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"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
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Old 8th January 2019, 06:42 PM   #4
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I seriously hope they're running DNA tests to identify the culprit.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:10 PM   #5
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WTF? Setting aside the evil of raping a woman, how could the staff have possibly not noticed the biological indications of pregnancy? Were they just not taking even basic care of her, on top of not having in place safeguards against, you know, rape?
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:16 PM   #6
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The paragraph after the one where I arbitrarily ended the quote is as follows:

Quote:
It is also unclear if staff members at the Hacienda de Los Angeles facility were unaware of the pregnancy until the birth.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:32 PM   #7
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Some updates:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.57ee75fd7b7d


Highlights:


Search warrants for DNA have been issued. I was about to type "The dude might as well turn himself in." but it occurred to me that it assumes there was only one assailant. It won't be difficult at all to definitively identify the assailant who made her pregnant, but perhaps there are two or more people who are currently hoping the other one is the one identified.

The CEO has resigned. Suggestions have also been made about shady dealings with taxes, and about high salaries and bonuses at a money losing facility.

There were a whole bunch of allegations of shoddy care and abuse over the years.


The staff were unaware that she was pregnant. (ETA: Lots of writers expressed incredulity at this, because this should have been noticeable even at the most basic levels of care.)

The baby is a healthy boy.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 8th January 2019 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:34 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
WTF? Setting aside the evil of raping a woman, how could the staff have possibly not noticed the biological indications of pregnancy? Were they just not taking even basic care of her, on top of not having in place safeguards against, you know, rape?
What symptoms are you thinking?

The only one I've heard argued is amenorrhea, but I would not be surprised if someone in a vegetative state isn't going to have normal menses. Hell, I'm more surprised that she was even ovulating in that state, so I can imagine that amenorrhea or irregular periods would not be uncommon.

Now, there could be fundal growth, but that would depend on a lot of other factors, although I can't imagine that she is obese. Then again, I could imagine that there could be a lot of bodily changes consistent with a patient in a vegetative state.

I don't think missing it is as surprising as many are making it out to be.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:35 PM   #9
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Would like to see some pics of the patient.
Just, you know, out of curiosity.
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Old 8th January 2019, 07:46 PM   #10
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Sadly that this is in Phoenix, AZ does not surprise me.

I live here with a Step-father in care, a roommate who has been in and out of care for the last 2 years, and being an adjunct myself (I voluntarily do home hemodialysis for my roommate now because despite being in full renal failure and disabled, he doesn't qualify for any care personnel because he's only 38) the standard of care in care centers and rehab facilities in this city is abysmal. The staff rarely checks patients even after the call alarm is blaring (across 5 facilities average time to just bring a piss cup is 3 to 4 hours), patient meds are withheld for no apparent reason, even things like calling transport for necessary testing just doesn't happen.

My step father had an ESBL E. Coli infection for nearly 4 weeks before the care facility he was in sent him to the hospital, this is after he's lost his leg due to necrotic fasciitis several months prior.

I'm sure there are good facilities somewhere here, but insurance companies will not pay for them for normal people when there are tons of cheaply run death homes paying kickbacks (obvious hyperbole is obvious).

Last edited by TalosMarr; 8th January 2019 at 07:49 PM. Reason: 1. formatting for legibility, 2. clarity
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Old 8th January 2019, 08:12 PM   #11
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This is going to sound extremely callous, 10 years in a vegetive state, what are the odds she is actually going to come around? Who is paying for her care and why is she in this state? If someone has been in a state like this for long, isn't it more merciful to pull the plug?

This is obviously a separate issue to the rape. I hope they find whomever did it and castrate him.
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Old 8th January 2019, 08:13 PM   #12
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You just know they've billed the insurance for the birth. I wonder if they had the balls to tack on prenatal care charges.
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Old 8th January 2019, 11:25 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
This is going to sound extremely callous, 10 years in a vegetive state, what are the odds she is actually going to come around? Who is paying for her care and why is she in this state? If someone has been in a state like this for long, isn't it more merciful to pull the plug?

This is obviously a separate issue to the rape. I hope they find whomever did it and castrate him.
Well you either murder the person or wait for them to die peacefully.

Not everyone in a coma is on a ventilator, there may be no plug to pull except the feeding tube you put food and water in.

They might be doing a few unnecessary things like antibiotics and annual flu shots.

Obesity would be unusual but staff might not be skilled and even some thin people have small babies.
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Old 8th January 2019, 11:27 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You just know they've billed the insurance for the birth. I wonder if they had the balls to tack on prenatal care charges.
The nursing home's liability insurance would likely pay the medical costs, not the patient's medical insurance.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:07 AM   #15
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There was an R rated movie where a carer was hiring out a woman, who was in a coma, out for sex. There is a fetish where men want to have sex with such women. It could be something like that. If that is the case the father could be any of heaps of men. But this is pure speculation.

I only hope they also test her for sexually transmitted infections. Then let it be known that the tests are positive.

Edit. The name of the movie was Kill Bill. If you like to see lots of blood and guts in a movie, it is good.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
What symptoms are you thinking?

The only one I've heard argued is amenorrhea, but I would not be surprised if someone in a vegetative state isn't going to have normal menses. Hell, I'm more surprised that she was even ovulating in that state, so I can imagine that amenorrhea or irregular periods would not be uncommon.

Now, there could be fundal growth, but that would depend on a lot of other factors, although I can't imagine that she is obese. Then again, I could imagine that there could be a lot of bodily changes consistent with a patient in a vegetative state.

I don't think missing it is as surprising as many are making it out to be.
Indeed. There use to be a TV Show called "I didn't know I was pregnant". It might be still on. I never watched it myself. I only know of it from "The Soup".
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
...
I only hope they also test her for sexually transmitted infections. Then let it be known that the tests are positive.....
That's part of the standard of care for any birth that didn't have prenatal care.
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:29 AM   #18
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I don't know if this is off-topic, but why keep a body in a "vegetative state" alive for over 10 years?
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Old 9th January 2019, 12:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I don't know if this is off-topic, but why keep a body in a "vegetative state" alive for over 10 years?
See post #13.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
See post #13.
Thanks, SG! I was about to quote your post but you saved me the trouble.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:20 AM   #21
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Sounds to me that she tempted him with her provocative dress, who constantly dresses in a nightie for dates? Did she refuse consent or ask him to stop? Not as clear cut as made out.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:28 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Well you either murder the person or wait for them to die peacefully.

Not everyone in a coma is on a ventilator, there may be no plug to pull except the feeding tube you put food and water in.
If someone is in PVS for ten years it suggests a low likelihood that they will ever recover consciousness does it not? There have been a number of cases in the past (Tony Bland, Terri Schiavo) where the feeedimg tunes have been removed because they could not recover. To call it murder is wrong.
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Old 9th January 2019, 01:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If someone is in PVS for ten years it suggests a low likelihood that they will ever recover consciousness does it not? There have been a number of cases in the past (Tony Bland, Terri Schiavo) where the feeedimg tunes have been removed because they could not recover. To call it murder is wrong.
I was trying to make a point. If you let someone die of starvation that was dependent on you for feeding, is that murder?

It's rare cases where the family does actually ask for feeding to be stopped. I had a patient like that once when I was in nursing school and they were giving her 500 calories a day. It was whispered about.

The legality is unclear and varies by state.
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Old 9th January 2019, 03:54 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by TalosMarr View Post
Sadly that this is in Phoenix, AZ does not surprise me.

I live here with a Step-father in care, a roommate who has been in and out of care for the last 2 years, and being an adjunct myself (I voluntarily do home hemodialysis for my roommate now because despite being in full renal failure and disabled, he doesn't qualify for any care personnel because he's only 38) the standard of care in care centers and rehab facilities in this city is abysmal. The staff rarely checks patients even after the call alarm is blaring (across 5 facilities average time to just bring a piss cup is 3 to 4 hours), patient meds are withheld for no apparent reason, even things like calling transport for necessary testing just doesn't happen.

My step father had an ESBL E. Coli infection for nearly 4 weeks before the care facility he was in sent him to the hospital, this is after he's lost his leg due to necrotic fasciitis several months prior.

I'm sure there are good facilities somewhere here, but insurance companies will not pay for them for normal people when there are tons of cheaply run death homes paying kickbacks (obvious hyperbole is obvious).
I'm surprised that in a litigious society like America, care centres can get away with such blatant criminal neglect.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:41 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was trying to make a point. If you let someone die of starvation that was dependent on you for feeding, is that murder?
I would say no from a moral point of view. Legally, as you say, the jurisdiction may determine otherwise.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's rare cases where the family does actually ask for feeding to be stopped. I had a patient like that once when I was in nursing school and they were giving her 500 calories a day. It was whispered about.

The legality is unclear and varies by state.
Sure, but I think it is worth us considering that we should put the moral status of those in a PVS on a similar level to early fetuses.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:51 AM   #26
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Have any DNA tests been done yet? Any news on who the monster who did it is?
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Have any DNA tests been done yet? Any news on who the monster who did it is?
Life isn't the movies and TV. DNA tests actually take time.

The search warrant for the DNA was only served sometime yesterday. Even if they get all the samples today (which I bet the won't one or more persons will drag feet on it, bring in lawyers, etc) we won't have results for a few days at least.
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Old 9th January 2019, 05:59 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Have any DNA tests been done yet? Any news on who the monster who did it is?
It looks like that is in the investigative pipeline:

Quote:
Police have served a search warrant Tuesday to get DNA from all male employees at a long-term care facility in Phoenix where a patient who had been in a vegetative state for years gave birth.

Male staff members at a Hacienda Healthcare center in Phoenix, Arizona, were asked to give DNA samples as part of an investigation into how the patient got pregnant, according to a press release from the long-term care facility.
Link
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:02 AM   #29
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I wonder how "secure" of a facility this is. Are we talking a dozen or so staff members or... like every male who visited the facility roughly 9 months ago?

Not to put too callous a point on it but raping a comatose women wouldn't necessarily take that much time or make that much noise. A determined person (*shudder*) could duck into the room, close the door, and accomplish... the task (again *shudder*) in a minute or so.

I hope they catch this sicko, but will not be completely surprised if the DNA test on the staff don't catch the culprit.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I wonder how "secure" of a facility this is. Are we talking a dozen or so staff members of... like every mail who visited the facility roughly 9 months ago?

Not to put too callous a point on it but raping a comatose women wouldn't necessarily take that much time or make that much noise. A determined person (*shudder*) could duck into the room, close the door, and accomplish... the task (again *shudder*) in a minute or so.

I hope they catch this sicko, but will not be completely surprised if the DNA test on the staff don't catch the culprit.
Certainly the potential culprits could go beyond staff. They might need to request (or subpoena) DNA from visitors including the woman's own family relatives. I would assume that visitors are logged.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:31 AM   #31
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I don't know why people are horrified. This is as close to a victimless crime as rape gets. Literally every other kind of rape is worse for the victim.

Speaking of which: Where was Bill Cosby 9 months ago?
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:45 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Woman in Vegetative State for 10+ Years Gives Birth
Talk about being easy.
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Old 9th January 2019, 06:48 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
I don't know why people are horrified. This is as close to a victimless crime as rape gets. Literally every other kind of rape is worse for the victim.
I think that's basically true. It looks like acts of necrophilia are not considered to be rape, but this is practically that.

It's interesting that even though the harm is likely to be lower for these acts, our disgust tends to be higher.

That said, I wonder what the psychological harm will be for the kid growing up learning how mum and dad met.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:22 AM   #34
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I was waiting for someone either seriously or jokingly to make the "Is it a crime (or yah know a crime-crime) if she's in a coma and can't experience suffering?" argument.
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Old 9th January 2019, 07:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I wonder what the psychological harm will be for the kid growing up learning how mum and dad met.
Surely the kid will be adopted out, and never told about what happened? I presume that's what happened with the babies Ian Watkins tried to rape here in the UK.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:41 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Life isn't the movies and TV. DNA tests actually take time.

The search warrant for the DNA was only served sometime yesterday. Even if they get all the samples today (which I bet the won't one or more persons will drag feet on it, bring in lawyers, etc) we won't have results for a few days at least.
There is an interesting legal issue here as to the validity and basis for a warrant requiring DNA from all male staff members. There is obviously probable cause to believe a crime has been committed, but if having access to the victim is the only basis for probable cause that a specific person did it, it gets a bit less clear depending on how many people we are talking about, level of access, etc.

It isn't as trivial as it may seem. A person giving a DNA sample could wind up with their DNA in a police database, which is pretty invasive and not something I'd recommend for a whole host of reasons.
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:47 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
A person giving a DNA sample could wind up with their DNA in a police database, which is pretty invasive and not something I'd recommend for a whole host of reasons.
If the test was for elimination purposes, surely they could demand its erasure after it was used?
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Old 9th January 2019, 08:53 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
If the test was for elimination purposes, surely they could demand its erasure after it was used?
"Sure, we'll destroy it after... How do you spell your name for the database?"
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
If the test was for elimination purposes, surely they could demand its erasure after it was used?
Probably, but if the cops really want to do it stopping them involves paying a lawyer and even then they could just lie about erasing it.

The more immediate issue is that a lot of crime labs are incompetent and/or shady and DNA is only as accurate as the lab is honest and competent. The best way to avoid this is keep the DNA out of their hands.

Then again, thanks to Fred Zain I've a borderline unreasonably cynical and skeptical attitude towards anything that comes out of a police run crime lab. I'm aware I can sound tinfoil hat paranoid on the subject...
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Old 9th January 2019, 11:37 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
If the test was for elimination purposes, surely they could demand its erasure after it was used?

Yes, this. Surely a double blind test could be used and negative results simply tossed out without the testers even knowing to whom they were related.


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