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Old 16th July 2019, 03:09 AM   #201
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well there you go, you found one all by yourself.

Is that the ONLY one you could find?
Yes, it was, admittedly it's not something that I want to spend a lot of time on and I was rather hoping that, seeing you made the claim, you might be willing to help me but it seem you want to avoid shaking the blinkers off of me.

You said he encouraged and incites violence against millions of muslims and other groups. I'm simply asking you to show me where you've seen this.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:11 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Repeatedly? He only asked once and when he did he provided his own ******* evidence in the next sentence!

But if you insist...here's a tiny selection of fine upstanding journalist and free speech campaigner Tommy Robinson's loving comments about Muslims

https://resistinghate.org/tommy-robi...s-hate-tweets/
Quote:
We have collected a selection of Tommy’s tweets – all of which are genuine and not photoshopped or altered in any way –

If you say so. Next time include links. Not a single one there.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He has also taken to intimidating actual journalists at their homes and offices.

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/resea...bic-extremist/
Originally Posted by hopenothate
In the last few weeks, former English Defence League (EDL) leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon (alias Tommy Robinson), has started a crusade to confront journalists and bloggers that he believes have been “lying” about him.

Well, they did lie about him (mildly said). He caught them on film. "crusade", lol. I've seen the movie.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And his followers know exactly what he is and what he stands for.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/arti...rain-passenger

I don't doubt that there are violent thugs among his fans.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:12 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Repeatedly? He only asked once and when he did he provided his own ******* evidence in the next sentence!
You're playing fast and loose with the word evidence here!

Quote:
But if you insist...here's a tiny selection of fine upstanding journalist and free speech campaigner Tommy Robinson's loving comments about Muslims

https://resistinghate.org/tommy-robi...s-hate-tweets/
Thank you, I haven't time to go through this at the moment but will do later on.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:16 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He has also taken to intimidating actual journalists at their homes and offices.

https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/resea...bic-extremist/
Intimidating? Give me a break.

The ones I've seen have him approaching journalists and insisting that they back up claims they have made against him in print.

It's something that should happen more often with journalists.. of any stripe.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:19 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And his followers know exactly what he is and what he stands for.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/arti...rain-passenger
We were talking about Tommy Robinsons actions and not those of people who, according to the article, "Mr “Robinson,” real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, sought to distance himself from"

Last edited by bluesjnr; 16th July 2019 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:22 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The hand-waves will be along shortly... "Well, that might be opinionated and Islamophobic, but where's he actually on tape or film inciting violence, huh? Huh? You haven't got any, so Tommy's a swell bloke who's just a little rough around the edges."
Is it as binary as that?

I see you've slipped down the rabbit hole that some other posters have happily jumped down. That one where you proactively paint people who question the narrative or ask for a bit more evidence of claims made as rabid supporters of [insert person/party/ideology of your choice].

It's a complete dick move.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:25 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Opinion in the pub is divided but leans slightly (by numbers) towards Tommy being the next Prime Minister.
His showing at the recent May 2019 European Parliament election in North West England would shine a light on the reality of that given that he finished 8th and lost his deposit.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:28 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Intimidating? Give me a break.

The ones I've seen have him approaching journalists and insisting that they back up claims they have made against him in print.

It's something that should happen more often with journalists.. of any stripe.
He and his cronies were battering on the doors of the homes of people he took a dislike to. And no, you don't intimidate journalists in the street. Because that actually is how fascism works. You seem to be able to make an awful lot of excuses for TR and yet are quick to condemn others. For god sake, is this the hill you want to die on? Standing up for Tommy Robinson?
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:31 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
We were talking about Tommy Robinsons actions and not those of people who, according to the article, "Mr “Robinson,” real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, sought to distance himself from"
Yes we were talking about what Tommy Robinson believes and stands for, what he incites and promotes. And what he incites and promotes is evidenced by the behaviour of the people who listen to him and think he talks a lot of sense.

Because his followers KNOW what he stands for, and it's not the innocent 'good boy done wrong' ******** he peddles in the media.
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Old 16th July 2019, 03:36 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
He and his cronies were battering on the doors of the homes of people he took a dislike to. And no, you don't intimidate journalists in the street. Because that actually is how fascism works. You seem to be able to make an awful lot of excuses for TR and yet are quick to condemn others. For god sake, is this the hill you want to die on? Standing up for Tommy Robinson?
I'm standing up for a fair assessment of the individuals intentions based on factual evidence and not kneejerk, join the baying masses pitchfork and torch parade that's gathering here.

I have made not one single excuse for Tommy Robinson, you are blinded by your slavers.

You have the audacity to quote a source that requests donations to start a revolution and pillory Robinson in the same breath!
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Old 16th July 2019, 04:41 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm standing up for a fair assessment of the individuals intentions based on factual evidence and not kneejerk, join the baying masses pitchfork and torch parade that's gathering here.
Those of us that have known Tommy Robinson for a number of years know inciting baying masses with pitchforks is exactly who he is. There is a reason why he appeals to jackbooted racists.
Sometimes the truth doesn't lie in the middle of two opposing opinions. One side is simply wrong. He is a twat.

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Old 16th July 2019, 05:45 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm standing up for a fair assessment of the individuals intentions based on factual evidence
Then do the work to look at the evidence rather than try to pointscore and nitpick away the clear evidence of his intentions, actions and the actions of others he incites.

But I do wonder why you are so insistent on a wealth of evidence because you were quite happy to throw me under the bus as no different to him based on hee-haw.
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:13 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by The Common Potato View Post
I think the enabling paedophilia argument works thus: by his actions, the accused might go free, free to be a paedo again.
The thing is though, that anyone actually thinking this has no idea how the English Court system works. Even in a worse case scenario where it lead to a Mistrial, then the Crown would just refile charges and redo the trial. There is pretty much no scenario where they walked away free.
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:14 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think it follows directly from Phantom Wolf's explanation about the concern that Tommy Robinson would contaminate the jury pool.
You are aware that the Court Order restricted all reporting, not just Robinson's?
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The hand-waves will be along shortly... "Well, that might be opinionated and Islamophobic, but where's he actually on tape or film inciting violence, huh? Huh? You haven't got any, so Tommy's a swell bloke who's just a little rough around the edges."
This stuff gradually approaches the appeal of, "Just because he's a racist, that does not prove that he is a racist."
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:56 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
You choose not to explain your remark. Fine, that's on you, not me.
You also choose not to explain your remark. I'm willing to explain, as long as we both do. You're not. Why?
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Old 16th July 2019, 07:58 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is not you. It is everyone else. Literally. Everyone commenting thinks you are in the wrong.
The appeal to popularity is a fallacy.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:02 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You are aware that the Court Order restricted all reporting, not just Robinson's?
Yes.

And this raises questions about the fitness of UKians for jury duty.

It also raises some rather more interesting questions about the role of public opinion in jury trials, but I doubt we'll get to them here.

Anyway, I think we can all at least agree that Tommy Robinson violated a lawful court order, and has been more or less appropriately sanctioned for it.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:19 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Those of us that have known Tommy Robinson for a number of years know inciting baying masses with pitchforks is exactly who he is. There is a reason why he appeals to jackbooted racists.
Sometimes the truth doesn't lie in the middle of two opposing opinions. One side is simply wrong. He is a twat.
Fair point.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:25 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Then do the work to look at the evidence rather than try to pointscore and nitpick away the clear evidence of his intentions, actions and the actions of others he incites.
I did ask for some time to review your previous links and having done some preliminary research it's clear he's come from a very shady background and he's latched on to a cause célèbre and is clearly a racist. That's my starting point.

Quote:
But I do wonder why you are so insistent on a wealth of evidence because you were quite happy to throw me under the bus as no different to him based on hee-haw.
I think this is the point where you and your ilk post this
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:26 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes.

And this raises questions about the fitness of UKians for jury duty.


It also raises some rather more interesting questions about the role of public opinion in jury trials, but I doubt we'll get to them here.

Anyway, I think we can all at least agree that Tommy Robinson violated a lawful court order, and has been more or less appropriately sanctioned for it.

How does it?

Would other nationalities not be influenced by prejudicial information?
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:29 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You also choose not to explain your remark. I'm willing to explain, as long as we both do. You're not. Why?
Oh, do grow up. Just explain what you meant.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:32 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The appeal to popularity is a fallacy.
Irrelevant. Are you suggesting that popular opinion is always wrong? I am pointing out that everyone disagrees with you. You may be right but if so you are failing to explain your self in a convincing way. You have lost the audience.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:42 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Intimidating? Give me a break.

The ones I've seen have him approaching journalists and insisting that they back up claims they have made against him in print.

It's something that should happen more often with journalists.. of any stripe.

At 5am?


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8808311.html

I think you are being too generous to the convicted football hooligan and fraudster, who also told an underage girl she was "fit for a Muslim" - in context of his claimed views about underage girls, that is relevant.

I don't know about you, but I seem to have managed to not intimidate a single journalist.
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Old 16th July 2019, 08:49 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Is it as binary as that?

I see you've slipped down the rabbit hole that some other posters have happily jumped down. That one where you proactively paint people who question the narrative or ask for a bit more evidence of claims made as rabid supporters of [insert person/party/ideology of your choice].

It's a complete dick move.
Oh, for crissake. Tommy's cleaned up his act because he wants to run for Parliament, I feel.

Please hand-wave away this little performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j7I...ature=youtu.be

"Every single Muslim watching this... on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again."
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:10 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Oh, for crissake. Tommy's cleaned up his act because he wants to run for Parliament, I feel.

Please hand-wave away this little performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j7I...ature=youtu.be

"Every single Muslim watching this... on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again."

For a while I stayed FB friends with an ex-colleague who I'd known to be a bit reactionary but still IMO a decent bloke. Then he started posting English Defence League stuff and the contents and comments were horrific - admiring the tactics of the SS wiping out villages for the sake of one person's resistance and saying the same should be done for immigrant housing areas. The EDL are/were Nazis. End of.
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:29 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Oh, for crissake. Tommy's cleaned up his act because he wants to run for Parliament, I feel.
No. He knows he wouldn't win a seat anywhere. He might stand for 'publicity' but is likely to lose his deposit. (10% of votes needed).
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:41 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
<snipped personal attack>

Just explain what you meant.
So much for civility.

Anyway, remember when I asked you to explain what you meant, and you refused? If you won't, why should I?
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:50 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How does it?

Would other nationalities not be influenced by prejudicial information?
Presumably people are much the same everywhere. But not every jurisdiction that has jury trials also has this kind of prohibition on reporting. That the UK has a special rule suggests a special problem with UKians.

If you don't trust a UKian juror to filter out Tommy Robinson, why would you trust them to render a sensible verdict at all? Why would you want them to have that responsibility?
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:53 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Irrelevant. Are you suggesting that popular opinion is always wrong? I am pointing out that everyone disagrees with you. You may be right but if so you are failing to explain your self in a convincing way. You have lost the audience.
I'm pretty sure I haven't lost the audience.

Also, you're not paying attention. I haven't yet attempted a convincing explanation. Once I do, we can see whether I fail the attempt.

Also, of course everyone disagrees with me. I'm a contrarian in an echo chamber. Proclaiming the consensus of the echo chamber is supposed to do what for you, exactly?
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:56 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So much for civility.

Anyway, remember when I asked you to explain what you meant, and you refused? If you won't, why should I?
Are you ten?
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:56 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That the UK has a special rule suggests a special problem with UKians.
How so?
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Old 16th July 2019, 09:57 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Presumably people are much the same everywhere. But not every jurisdiction that has jury trials also has this kind of prohibition on reporting. That the UK has a special rule suggests a special problem with UKians.

If you don't trust a UKian juror to filter out Tommy Robinson, why would you trust them to render a sensible verdict at all? Why would you want them to have that responsibility?
The second paragraph doesn't follow from the first.

You do know the real reason, which is that English legal system tries to avoid prejudicing trials and if there are two simultaneous trials, it's only just for each group of jurors to arrive at their decisions independently of each other. One doesn't want to have a mistrial simply because reporting restrictions were lifted early and the defence in the second trial could claim their jury was influenced by the verdicts in the first trial.

This is very basic stuff, which I'm sure you understand if you want to.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th July 2019, 10:09 AM   #234
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 16th July 2019, 01:16 PM   #235
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Oh, for crissake. Tommy's cleaned up his act because he wants to run for Parliament, I feel.
Do try and keep up, I gave the details of his delving into politics earlier.

Quote:
Please hand-wave away this little performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j7I...ature=youtu.be

"Every single Muslim watching this... on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens... you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end... and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again."
Again proactively ascribing an outcome right out of your arse. It's tiresome and I won't play your stupid little game other than to say you look ******* stupid with this tactic.
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Old 16th July 2019, 01:48 PM   #236
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That the UK has a special rule suggests a special problem with UKians.
Now you are going to have to explain your reasoning here because you somehow managed to come to an incredibly unsound conclusion.
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Old 16th July 2019, 02:01 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The second paragraph doesn't follow from the first.

You do know the real reason, which is that English legal system tries to avoid prejudicing trials and if there are two simultaneous trials, it's only just for each group of jurors to arrive at their decisions independently of each other. One doesn't want to have a mistrial simply because reporting restrictions were lifted early and the defence in the second trial could claim their jury was influenced by the verdicts in the first trial.

This is very basic stuff, which I'm sure you understand if you want to.
I don't see a problem. In the US, civil trials follow criminal trials all the time, without having difficulty about the jury being influenced by the preceding verdict.

And again, it comes back to the same question: If you can't trust a UKian juror to disagree with other verdicts and make up their own mind based on the evidence presented in their own trial, then why would you want them to have the responsibility of jury duty at all?

Last edited by theprestige; 16th July 2019 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 16th July 2019, 02:05 PM   #238
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Now you are going to have to explain your reasoning here because you somehow managed to come to an incredibly unsound conclusion.
I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer, but I'll try.

One makes a rule to address a problem.

A universal problem is likely to have a universal rule.

When the rule is not universal, but rather specific ("special") to a particular circumstance, it suggests that there is something about that specific circumstance that is problematic.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:22 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Presumably people are much the same everywhere. But not every jurisdiction that has jury trials also has this kind of prohibition on reporting. That the UK has a special rule suggests a special problem with UKians.

If you don't trust a UKian juror to filter out Tommy Robinson, why would you trust them to render a sensible verdict at all? Why would you want them to have that responsibility?
No it suggests no such thing.
It suggests we take the idea of jury neutrality seriously, and realise the trouble that can be caused by external influences polluting a trial.

Unlike, say, the US where trials seem to be treated more as entertainment.

See?
I can spout ignorant bollocks as well...
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:14 AM   #240
Darat
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The appeal to popularity is a fallacy.
You are getting yourself rather muddled. It was not an appeal to popularity, it was a conclusion based on empirical evidence.
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