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Old 14th November 2017, 03:52 PM   #81
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Scorpion, how would the people who run spiritualist churches be able to tell if a visiting medium was a fake?
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:53 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Scorpion, how would the people who run spiritualist churches be able to tell if a visiting medium was a fake?
If they are in touch with the spirit world themselves they will know if a person is faking it, because the spirits would tell them.
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Old 14th November 2017, 03:55 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You're still ignoring those Derren Brown clips, Scorpion. It's looking deliberate.
I will watch them tomorrow.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 05:45 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If you truly believe it's impossible for psychics to be fooled by a faker, then I suggest you watch this:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I can't see anything except a black screen, and the same goes for the other video.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:17 PM   #85
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I have the same problem trying to watch embedded videos on my laptop, though they work fine on my tablet.

Here's the YouTube link to Messiah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT3izBQfh5M
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Old 14th November 2017, 07:02 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you are told things that the medium could not have known about you, that would be cause for pause wouldn't it.

By the way I forgot to say that to avoid cold reading you should keep a straight face if given a message, and only answer yes or no to questions.
I will likely not get involved in a long discussion, but rather saw no response to the last sentence, and this is crucial.

Wrong. If the message is asking a question then it is a question and not a message. This is your first and most obvious sign it is a cold reading. Truly skilled cold readers will disguise their questions.

Every time you say yes or no you are conveying information that the psychic/medium did not yet have.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:58 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't see anything except a black screen, and the same goes for the other video.

The spirits are clearly getting involved.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:35 AM   #88
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I came here expecting an experiment involving scorpions. Disappointing.
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Old 15th November 2017, 01:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What use would it be if mediums got peoples details and emailed it to them.
As opposed to being told in person. As has been asked before, what difference does it make how you get the revelations?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You would just write it off as a scam.
Which I could do in a church as well. The difference being the lack of peer pressure in my inbox.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If you really want to know if there are genuine mediums you have to seek them out. Then it takes some time to get really evidential messages. The best place to get them is in a church.
You are basically admitting it's either hot or cold reading here.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
AS for the messages being mundane there is a deeper philosophy in spiritualism, and you have to seek that out too.
You told us one of the amazing revelations was that you weren't happy with a painting you had recently done.
What was the 'deeper philosophy' embedded in that message?
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Old 15th November 2017, 01:53 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't know about USA churches, as I am English, I just posted a link to a list of churches in America for the convenience of Americans, I can't say I looked at any of the links.
So if any of the American forum members had done as you asked, and gone to one of these churches, they would have been ripped off by mediums who are apparently not interested in profit whilst charging exorbitant fees for their services.
What's more, as you didn't check the list, it is entirely possible that these churches are fakes (in your terms) and not genuine.
Do you think this experiment, if carried out in this way, would have helped persuade anyone that spiritualism and mediums are genuine?
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So if any of the American forum members had done as you asked, and gone to one of these churches, they would have been ripped off by mediums who are apparently not interested in profit whilst charging exorbitant fees for their services.
What's more, as you didn't check the list, it is entirely possible that these churches are fakes (in your terms) and not genuine.
Do you think this experiment, if carried out in this way, would have helped persuade anyone that spiritualism and mediums are genuine?
Seems strange that none of his friendly spirits spoke to him and told him not to give such false information out. The spirits must want people to be ripped off.

Mind you again given his beliefs that is probably correct, being ripped off is suffering and he's been very clear that suffering is good for you and is necessary.
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:02 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seems strange that none of his friendly spirits spoke to him and told him not to give such false information out. The spirits must want people to be ripped off.

Mind you again given his beliefs that is probably correct, being ripped off is suffering and he's been very clear that suffering is good for you and is necessary.

Strange indeed, given this:

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If they are in touch with the spirit world themselves they will know if a person is faking it, because the spirits would tell them.
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:21 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Strange indeed, given this:
Yeah but...
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:45 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
What's more, as you didn't check the list, it is entirely possible that these churches are fakes (in your terms) and not genuine.
Do you think this experiment, if carried out in this way, would have helped persuade anyone that spiritualism and mediums are genuine?
Didn't you see Scorpion's excuse? They couldn't be fakes, or else their employer would know because of their own magical powers, and why would they hire a fraud?

The possibility that none of them are magic hasn't occurred to him.
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Old 15th November 2017, 06:52 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine.
Would you mind sharing the name of this church you attended for two years that gave you your evidence?
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:02 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If they are in touch with the spirit world themselves they will know if a person is faking it, because the spirits would tell them.
How does one know if the people who run the church aren't fake?

So far, your criteria for choosing church that isn't fake is:

1. They do it for the love of humanity and don't charge money for their services. The only way they make money is through a collection plate that people put money into voluntarily
2. They tell you information that you deem impossible for them to have known
3. They don't perform tarot readings

So based on your criteria, to you consider all of the churches listed in my post #49 as being fakes?
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:07 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Bearing in mind that I went for two years before I had evidential messages that finally convince me that some mediums are genuine.
You went for two years BEFORE getting your evidence? Does this mean that prior to evidential message, you were getting information from mediums that was wrong or what? That you thought all the mediums/spirits you saw in those two years were fakes?
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:23 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
Would you mind sharing the name of this church you attended for two years that gave you your evidence?
Dartford Christian spiritualist church
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:25 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
How does one know if the people who run the church aren't fake?

So far, your criteria for choosing church that isn't fake is:

1. They do it for the love of humanity and don't charge money for their services. The only way they make money is through a collection plate that people put money into voluntarily
2. They tell you information that you deem impossible for them to have known
3. They don't perform tarot readings

So based on your criteria, to you consider all of the churches listed in my post #49 as being fakes?
I don't know about USA churches, or whether they are fakes, but every church needs operating costs, so a small charge is reasonable.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:26 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
If they are in touch with the spirit world themselves they will know if a person is faking it, because the spirits would tell them.

No they wouldn't, because the next installment of the spiritualist narrative posits that if the spirits don't tell them, or tell them wrongly, it's because a high percentage of spirits (or at least, of those who interact with curious humans) are tricksters of various sorts, ranging from the merrily prankish to the Mephistophelean.

Every spirit realm in every tradition that describes them is chock full of tricksters. Tricksters are invoked to explain why what is supposed to be a singular independently existing external realm has none of the useful characteristics of a singular independently existing external realm, such as the ability to meet other people there and communicate with them. (You experience and remember meeting and conversing with a friend of yours in the spirit world, but then you discover your friend has no recollection of having done so. Obviously it was a trickster spirit you met instead, masquerading as your friend.)

Trickster spirits are the epicycles that reveal that the common spiritualist model of what the spirit world is and how it works is as inside out as geocentric cosmology.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:28 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Gamolon View Post
You went for two years BEFORE getting your evidence? Does this mean that prior to evidential message, you were getting information from mediums that was wrong or what? That you thought all the mediums/spirits you saw in those two years were fakes?
No, I had a number of messages in the two years, but they were not filled with facts I could be sure of, or that stood out in my mind. They were just general advice. It was only when I got very detailed messages that told me facts even I did not know about my family that I was convinced.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:29 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Dartford Christian spiritualist church
Which is a registered charity with the aim of "The promotion and advancement of the religion and religious philosophy of christian spiritualism" through
  • Providing services
  • Providing advocacy/advice/information
Interesting these charities what with their tax exempt status e.t.c.

I'll have to come up with something.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:31 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
......It was only when I got very detailed messages that told me facts even I did not know about my family that I was convinced.
So how do you know they are facts?
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:33 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
So if any of the American forum members had done as you asked, and gone to one of these churches, they would have been ripped off by mediums who are apparently not interested in profit whilst charging exorbitant fees for their services.
What's more, as you didn't check the list, it is entirely possible that these churches are fakes (in your terms) and not genuine.
Do you think this experiment, if carried out in this way, would have helped persuade anyone that spiritualism and mediums are genuine?
Well I can't answer for the churches on the list I posted as I did not even look at the links let alone go there. I assumed spiritualist churches in America operated the same as the ones I have been to in the UK.
I think it is reasonable to charge an admission fee as churches are expensive to run.
I just posted a list of churches I found for convenience of Americans.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:36 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
So how do you know they are facts?
I have posted these stories on my other thread. I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby and my mother had never told me.
But I went home and asked her and she said it was true. I was even told his name.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 07:42 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
As opposed to being told in person. As has been asked before, what difference does it make how you get the revelations?
The context was that you expect mediums to send strangers messages by email telling them a message from the spirit world. Any such email would be regarded as a scam.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You told us one of the amazing revelations was that you weren't happy with a painting you had recently done.
What was the 'deeper philosophy' embedded in that message?
The message was to tell me the spirits knew what I was doing, the philosophy comes during an earlier part of the service before the personal messages, when the medium gives a talk.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have posted these stories on my other thread. I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby and my mother had never told me.
But I went home and asked her and she said it was true. I was even told his name.
One of the problems with your account is that you've proven yourself to be an unreliable narrator of things you have done in the past. How can you be sure your memory isn't playing tricks on you in this case?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:29 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
One of the problems with your account is that you've proven yourself to be an unreliable narrator of things you have done in the past. How can you be sure your memory isn't playing tricks on you in this case?
I have been saying the same thing for several years, you can go back and see that my story has not changed.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:30 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The context was that you expect mediums to send strangers messages by email telling them a message from the spirit world. Any such email would be regarded as a scam.
If someone sent me an email with information I knew no one else knew about why on earth would I think it was a scam - I'd be really intrigued as to how they know these things.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The message was to tell me the spirits knew what I was doing, the philosophy comes during an earlier part of the service before the personal messages, when the medium gives a talk.
Been reading about quite a few of the UK spiritualist churches over the last couple of days - even checking up on one I've visited in the past - and their visiting mediums. Most of the visiting mediums seem to be full time professional mediums that you can pay to give you a reading at anytime, and many of the ones I've seen offer such things as tarot card readings.

Since you hold that the church psychics would know if someone was a fake why do you not believe the mediums can use tarot cards? Or do you hold it is only when using tarot cards that these mediums are ripping people off with their made-up stories?

ETA: Let me give you an example

http://www.leighspiritualisttemple.com/

One of their visiting mediums has been this person:

https://www.spiritualistmedium.co.uk/services - see photo of his tarot cards

Quote:
...snip....

MY GIFTS OR ABILITIES

I work with spirit in many ways, as I am clairvoyant (I see spirit), clairaudient (I hear spirit), clairsentient (I sense spirits emotions), claircogniant (clear knowing) and considered to be a physical medium having worked in closed circle with trance, transfiguration and materialisation mediumship.
I do work on a psychic level too with psychometry, auras, and psychic tools such as angel or tarot cards.
My gifts are used both in private sittings, within public demonstration and within closed circles and other groups or organisations, at my discretion, including parapsychology study groups.

...snip...
Is he a fake Scorpion?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have posted these stories on my other thread. I got a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby and my mother had never told me.
But I went home and asked her and she said it was true. I was even told his name.
Maybe. Maybe not. You may well have been aware of the happenings when you were a young child, and simply blanked them later. This is common, mundane even. Why you would leap immediately to a supernatural explanation when there are plenty of perfectly good alternatives available to consider first is beyond me.


Have you watched those Derren Brown videos yet?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If someone sent me an email with information I knew no one else knew about why on earth would I think it was a scam - I'd be really intrigued as to how they know these things.



Been reading about quite a few of the UK spiritualist churches over the last couple of days - even checking up on one I've visited in the past - and their visiting mediums. Most of the visiting mediums seem to be full time professional mediums that you can pay to give you a reading at anytime, and many of the ones I've seen offer such things as tarot card readings.

Since you hold that the church psychics would know if someone was a fake why do you not believe the mediums can use tarot cards? Or do you hold it is only when using tarot cards that these mediums are ripping people off with their made-up stories?
I know there are fake mediums, and for me Tarot cards are bunk.
I don't have experience of mediums using Tarot but I would regard them as suspicious if they did.
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:38 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know there are fake mediums.......
That's a start. They're all fake. Every single last one of them on the entire planet. They're all fake.

-

Have you watched those Derren Brown videos yet?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:39 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have been saying the same thing for several years, you can go back and see that my story has not changed.
Why shouldn't you repeat the same faulty recollection or lie?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:40 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I know there are fake mediums, and for me Tarot cards are bunk.
I don't have experience of mediums using Tarot but I would regard them as suspicious if they did.
And the churches that invite these "suspicious mediums"? You may have missed it but I added in an actual example in my post, I'll repeat it here:

ETA: Let me give you an example

http://www.leighspiritualisttemple.com/

One of their visiting mediums has been this person:

https://www.spiritualistmedium.co.uk/services - see photo of his tarot cards

Quote:
...snip....

MY GIFTS OR ABILITIES

I work with spirit in many ways, as I am clairvoyant (I see spirit), clairaudient (I hear spirit), clairsentient (I sense spirits emotions), claircogniant (clear knowing) and considered to be a physical medium having worked in closed circle with trance, transfiguration and materialisation mediumship.
I do work on a psychic level too with psychometry, auras, and psychic tools such as angel or tarot cards.
My gifts are used both in private sittings, within public demonstration and within closed circles and other groups or organisations, at my discretion, including parapsychology study groups.

...snip...
Is he a fake Scorpion?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:43 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why shouldn't you repeat the same faulty recollection or lie?
I don't lie, and I remember some of what the medium said quite clearly, because it made an impression on me. At the time of getting the message I did not believe a word of it, but I went home and asked my mother about it about an hour after getting the message, and she confirmed it. I was surprised, so it impressed itself on my memory.
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:46 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the churches that invite these "suspicious mediums"? You may have missed it but I added in an actual example in my post, I'll repeat it here:

ETA: Let me give you an example

http://www.leighspiritualisttemple.com/

One of their visiting mediums has been this person:

https://www.spiritualistmedium.co.uk/services - see photo of his tarot cards



Is he a fake Scorpion?
I would be dubious about the Tarot claims.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:51 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I would be dubious about the Tarot claims.
Is he a fake or not?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:52 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Is he a fake or not?
I don't know.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:53 AM   #119
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Have you watched those Derren Brown videos yet?
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Old 15th November 2017, 08:55 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Have you watched those Derren Brown videos yet?
I couldn't watch them yesterday because the links did not work. But pixel42 has kindly provided a link to one of them and I will watch it today.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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