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Old 27th April 2014, 12:57 PM   #121
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
If this world is monitored and controlled by "highly evolved beings".. they need to "evolve" a WHOLE LOT MORE!
Maybe go for a higher degree of "enlightenment"... they're sure incompetent at what they're doing now!
We are here to grow through our own choices, and the spirits try to inspire us toward the good but they cannot choose for us. So the world is the result of our actions, and it will not improve until we do.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th April 2014, 01:29 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
So, on the one hand we have the most accurate, best tested theory of all time (that underlies the very technology you used to post your message) - and on the other, your unsupported perception that it is bunk...


Yup; and he explained exactly why you can't use that as special pleading
Yabbut, to get that, one had to actually watch, and listen to, the video.
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Old 27th April 2014, 01:36 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
Yes they are - completely incompatible. See what Sean Carroll says that quantum field theory (now including the Higgs boson) tells us: The Fundamental Nature of Reality (I cut to the chase on that video; if you want the full explanation, watch it all).


Nope, we now know for certain that isn't the case.
dlorde:

Do you know if that transcript is anywhere available?
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Old 27th April 2014, 01:49 PM   #124
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Scorpion, thank you for patiently answering all our questions.

............

I have been trying to follow your description, but I am a bit confused. If I may ask several questions, it may clear up my understanding.

1) after we physically die our spiritual energy goes to a higher (?) realm or plane, is there a name for this location or level?

2) when in this plane, we can remember our most recent Earth-life (as evidenced from our ability to contact still living people with details of our lives). Can we remember all our previous lives?

3) when in this plane, can we communicate with others in this plane? Do the more enlightened souls try to teach things to the less enlightened souls? Do souls get to watch what is happening on Earth? Do these observations provide learning experiences for the souls or is learning completely limited to souls that are living on Earth.

4) why would hearing a voice before winning a lottery be considered an astronomically rare event? Most of the lottery players (and other gamblers) I have encountered often describe having a strong feeling, or emotional revelation , or sudden insight indicating that success is imminent.

....
You seem very happy with your belief system. I have no desire to talk you out of it.
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Old 27th April 2014, 02:22 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Do you know if that transcript is anywhere available?
No, I don't - I've seen the same subsection (on QFT and its physical constraints on reality) in other lectures of his I've seen online, but I haven't seen a transcript. It's probably in one of his books...

You could always email him.
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Old 27th April 2014, 02:25 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Yabbut, to get that, one had to actually watch, and listen to, the video.
And, even more important, understand it
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Old 27th April 2014, 02:56 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by dlorde View Post
No, I don't - I've seen the same subsection (on QFT and its physical constraints on reality) in other lectures of his I've seen online, but I haven't seen a transcript. It's probably in one of his books...

You could always email him.
TY!
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Old 27th April 2014, 02:57 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
If everything you say is the truth. I`m ready to become a convert.
Sadly it's no more likely to be true than The Lord of the Rings or The Book of Mormon. It's just a nice fantasy without a shred of evidence to support it.
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Old 27th April 2014, 03:27 PM   #129
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Years ago I had recommended to me a book by Gary Zukav, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters".

It was a long time ago, but at the time I thought it an interesting read. In retrospect, Zukav was probably reaching for his parallels between new physics and mysticism, but I still enjoyed it.

So, when I heard about another of his works, "The Seat Of The Soul", I procured a copy. I made it maybe 20% through.

It was nothing like the first book. It reminded me of how Scorpion makes his case - what I think of as "argument by assertion". Souls are here. Souls are there. Souls do this. Souls do that. All without a whit of evidence.

A major disappointment for me. Hard to imagine it was written by the same guy.

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 27th April 2014 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 27th April 2014, 04:23 PM   #130
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From the founders of Spiritualism, the Fox_sistersWP.


Quote:
Margaret and Katie made very strong statements against Spiritualism:

"That I have been chiefly instrumental in perpetrating the fraud of Spiritualism upon a too-confiding public, most of you doubtless know. The greatest sorrow in my life has been that this is true, and though it has come late in my day, I am now prepared to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God! . . I am here tonight as one of the founders of Spiritualism to denounce it as an absolute falsehood from beginning to end, as the flimsiest of superstitions, the most wicked blasphemy known to the world." – Margaretta Fox Kane, quoted in A.B. Davenport, The Death*blow to Spiritualism, p. 76. (Also see New York World, for October 21, 1888 and New York Herald and New York Daily Tribune, for October 22, 1888.)

"I regard Spiritualism as one of the greatest curses that the world has ever known." – Katie Fox Jencken, New York Herald, October 9, 1888.
They later recanted but their demonstration of toe clicking was public and preceded it.
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:15 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is just something I noticed over the years. I once went into a franciscan monestary in Italy and the power was overwhelming. The strongest I had ever felt. I also felt upliftment from some spiritualist healers, and I would feel it for days after the healing, but it gradually wore off.

Well then, that should be easy to test, and it would give you some solid evidence to show us. You would need to block out sound, vision, and scent, and have someone lead you into various religious buildings of differing ages. After spending a fixed amount of time in the space, you would then exit to a neutral location, and record your feelings.

You could also test to see if there is a difference between the power in religious buildings and non-religious ones. If you were consistently correct, then there would be something there to explore.

Would you be willing to do this?
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:27 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Using the occult to gain worldy weath is cheating the system big time. It is taking away money from the people that would have won it by abusing psychic powers. The spirit world does not normally do this, so they must have decided that buying me a computer was justifiable, so they influenced me when I picked the numbers. I felt energy flow through me when I was picking the numbers, and I picked the ones where the energy was strongest. A voice told me I had won the lottery one hour before the draw. Naturally I have wished they would give me a big win ever since but they never have.
I do not need any money now so the only reason they might give me a big win would be to give the money to charities, but they obviously don't want to do that, or where would it end. I could win the lottery every week.
Maybe all those who win are using psychic powers.
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:30 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
That's a quite spectacular amount of special pleading to explain why something that could not possibly happen, does not, in fact, happen.

It's like a gallon jug of Ockham's Special Hair Tonic.
Guaranteed to grow hair on bald men with black hair.
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:36 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I had feelings like fire flowing through my brow and through my heart, and most of the other seven major chakras. I saw a chart of the chakras in a book called alternative London and recognized them as the places where I had felt the fire flowing. So I started going to spiritualist churches for help.
After a long search I was told it was because my chakras were out of alignment due to my etheric body being loose, and you are right it was not a pleasant sensation. I also felt like there were cobwebs floating over my skin.



The etheric body is an energy shell that links the higher bodies like the astral and mental body to the physical. and consciousness is channeled down through the chakras into the brain. If you suffer a lot of stress, as I did your etheric body can become loose and not align properly with the physical body.


Spiritual healing is free, but you can leave some money on the collection plate to keep the church running. I had a lot of healing and I could often feel it as a power or force flowing into me.


It is perceivably different, and I could feel cold on a summers day and warm if I went into an old church. My nervous system was like a psychic barometer.
Odd they'd need money when they have a hot line to winning lottery numbers.
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:43 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
If the spirit that spoke to you through your chakras or whatever is someone's soul, how exactly does the spirit know what's going to happen in the future? Unless spirits are omniscient in past present and future, how does the spirit of someone from the past pick lottery numbers? What, exactly, does God get to do if Joe Schmoe's spirit from whenever has this kind of power?

Also, why would it be worth it for the spirit world to help you buy a computer (good lord that's laughably silly) but not to help equally wholesome people recover from terminal illness, pay for college, find a lost child, etc?
Without the computer he couldn't spread the word about the spiritual world that doesn't want mankind to know about it.

Apparently the spiritual world works in mysterious ways.
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:52 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There are said to be a number of planes separated by an energy barrier leading all the way up to God who remains untouched by it all. As far as I know God is a huge formless mind that provides all energy and does not interfere in our affairs directly, that is left to the angels and to highly evolved beings who have already reached enlightenment.

We go to the plane our evolution is most suited for and the darker realms are where the most unevolved go to, they can be called evil or ignorant. But it is up to them to wish to change before they can escape the lower realms.

The spirit world say there is a God and they are in a better position to know than we are. They could be lying but why would they.

The bottom line is that we are all God within God, and we are part of him, but we are on the long journey of self development and free will. We will ultimately rejoin God as enlightened beings at the end of our cycle of incarnations. It has been said that the point of it all is the journey itself.

After all, what would we be if we all sat around in heaven as untried and untested beings?
We'd be in heaven.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:29 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

After all, what would we be if we all sat around in heaven as untried and untested beings?


Would "testing" include the continued presence of child rape and murder? To steal a line: "If I saw a child about to be murdered or raped I'd stop it, That's the difference between me and your god."
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:56 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
"If I saw a child about to be murdered or raped I'd stop it, That's the difference between me and your god."
Reminds me of a Lyle Lovett song, "God Will", though admittedly expressing a very different sentiment:

Who keeps on trusting you
When you've been cheating
And spending your nights on the town
And who keeps on saying that he still wants you

When you're through running around
And who keeps on loving you
When you've been lying
Saying things ain't what they seem

God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't
And that's the difference
Between God and me

So who says he'll forgive you
And says that he'll miss you
And dream of your sweet memory

God does
But I don't
God will
But I won't
And that's the difference
Between God and me

Last edited by Fast Eddie B; 27th April 2014 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 28th April 2014, 06:32 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
1) after we physically die our spiritual energy goes to a higher (?) realm or plane, is there a name for this location or level?
There are supposedly separate realms, each of which has many levels.
There is the Astral plane, (linked to emotion)and the Mental plane.
We have a separate body for each plane.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
2) when in this plane, we can remember our most recent Earth-life (as evidenced from our ability to contact still living people with details of our lives). Can we remember all our previous lives?

recently departed people cannot remember more than their last incarnation, only enlightened souls that have completed their cycle of incarnations can remember all their past lives. They can remember them in perfect detail and the memories are all stored in the soul (causual)body. The soul body is formless and infinitely expandable. So there is no limit to the memories it can contain.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
3) when in this plane, can we communicate with others in this plane? Do the more enlightened souls try to teach things to the less enlightened souls? Do souls get to watch what is happening on Earth? Do these observations provide learning experiences for the souls or is learning completely limited to souls that are living on Earth.

Souls can certaily observe what is going on on the earth, and understand things better than we can. I am sure spirits can learn, but only in the struggle of life on earth can we really evolve.

Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
4) why would hearing a voice before winning a lottery be considered an astronomically rare event? Most of the lottery players (and other gamblers) I have encountered often describe having a strong feeling, or emotional revelation , or sudden insight indicating that success is imminent.
I just know it is what happened to me.
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Old 28th April 2014, 06:40 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Well then, that should be easy to test, and it would give you some solid evidence to show us. You would need to block out sound, vision, and scent, and have someone lead you into various religious buildings of differing ages. After spending a fixed amount of time in the space, you would then exit to a neutral location, and record your feelings.

You could also test to see if there is a difference between the power in religious buildings and non-religious ones. If you were consistently correct, then there would be something there to explore.

Would you be willing to do this?
I don't have those feelings much any more, I don't know why. I used to feel precences a lot, but age seems to have reduced my sensitivity. In any case it did not always happen. So I would be useless as a test subject.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 28th April 2014, 06:52 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I don't have those feelings much any more, I don't know why. I used to feel precences a lot, but age seems to have reduced my sensitivity. In any case it did not always happen. So I would be useless as a test subject.
Not at all. You don't need to be right every time, just more often than would be expected by chance. But whenever anyone takes this kind of blind test for such perceived phenomena the results are always exactly what would be expected by chance.
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Old 28th April 2014, 07:09 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There are supposedly separate realms, each of which has many levels.
There is the Astral plane, (linked to emotion)and the Mental plane.
We have a separate body for each plane.




recently departed people cannot remember more than their last incarnation, only enlightened souls that have completed their cycle of incarnations can remember all their past lives. They can remember them in perfect detail and the memories are all stored in the soul (causual)body. The soul body is formless and infinitely expandable. So there is no limit to the memories it can contain.
This is making me want to play Planescape: Torment again.
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Old 28th April 2014, 08:18 AM   #143
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Quote:
After a long search I was told it was because my chakras were out of alignment due to my etheric body being loose
Change spark plugs for chakras and head gasket for etheric body and that's straight out of the slightly-less-than-honest motor mechanic's toolkit.
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Old 28th April 2014, 08:25 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There are supposedly separate realms, each of which has many levels.
There is the Astral plane, (linked to emotion)and the Mental plane.
We have a separate body for each plane.
Scorpion, the word "supposedly" is one you should use more often:
There are supposedly separate realms, each of which supposedly has many levels.
There is, supposedly, the Astral plane, (supposedly linked to emotion)and the supposed Mental plane. We supposedly have a separate body for each supposed plane.
If you are certain, then drop the qualifiers; it sounds like you don't know for sure. If you have doubts, this is a good place to hang around.
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Old 28th April 2014, 08:49 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
...

recently departed people cannot remember more than their last incarnation, only enlightened souls that have completed their cycle of incarnations can remember all their past lives...
.
When might this occur?
Is there a goal to achieve for the incarnator, that once achieved the soul stops incarnating?
Anybody ever achieved that goal?
Sounds almost like a inescapable conscious everlasting death then.
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:04 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by I Ratant View Post
.
When might this occur?
Is there a goal to achieve for the incarnator, that once achieved the soul stops incarnating?
Anybody ever achieved that goal?
Sounds almost like a inescapable conscious everlasting death then.
I heard at a spiritualist trance lecture that it takes as many as thousands of incarnations to achive enlightenment and freedom from karma. We may be at a high stage of spiritual develoment, but we still have to incarnate until all karmic debts are settled. We do not only incarnate on this planet, but on many similar worlds at different stages of evolution. This has all happened before in past ages, and many spirits have completed their cycle, and achived a state of grace where they no longer need incarnation. After that they continue on as immortals in higher planes of existence.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:22 AM   #147
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Supposedly.
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:40 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Sorry, we couldn't get one, we'll have to make do with a semi-auto-da-fe.
Is that a bonfire that you have to light manually?
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:43 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Since my personal experience tells me that the spirit world can see into the future, my perception of it is that it is bunk. He did say there could be other forces but they are too weak to effect us physically. He did say they do not know everything.
Do you?
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:45 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
A few posts back I predicted that Scorpion would respond with Special Pleading.

Viola!

Where can I apply for the million dollars, having demonstrated my ability to predict the future?
Sorry but that's like predicting that water will run down a hill.
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:51 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
I see. It's good to know it's so organized. Do these angels not evolve too? And the brotherhood, are they all done, or on their way? Who directs these groups?

The sheer volume of souls - going back in time it must number in the hundreds of billions - makes me mention computers. Just to keep track of the pedigree of each one, the identity, the current level and so on. Who do you suppose would run this massive operation, some spiritual NSA?

For example, are there any repeat possessor spirits; those who routinely break the rules and jump into bodies already owned? How would they be identified and discouraged?

If there are any rule breakers at all - does it not suggest that there's some element of will involved? If so, there could be all manner of misdeed happening in both worlds. What would stop powerful spirits from staging a take-over and ruling the other world for themselves?
S/He paints a gloomy picture of the After Life:

You die and a luminous form says to you "You'll be teaching Spirit 101, lower form next eon" or "you're assistant to the underling for suppression of secrets".


ETA: How would we know that that hasn't already happened?

Last edited by tsig; 28th April 2014 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 28th April 2014, 09:57 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Sorry but that's like predicting that water will run down a hill.
Hey! I've predicted that as well!!

Does that mean I win $2 million?
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:05 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
You mean to say that spirits are uniformly good and show none of the ethical variety they did as humans? Hijinks, mistakes and even crime can't all be evil spirits.

Anyway, it sounds like this god must be doing a lot of work handling such a vast array of characters and coordinating it all. It must be a tiring job. Is the end result worth the whole gruelling enterprise?

Why doesn't this god start at the end, with the perfect creatures it always wanted as company?

The potential to do work that streams from above and assured the denizens of the various levels that there must be a god at the helm sounds like faith. Is this faith enough, to you, or do you count your experiences with spirits as more important towards your beliefs?

If your experiences are important, and they are your evidence, then why do you not seek more evidence about this god? Just because you are convinced there are spirits does not mean that there is a god. They could be tricking you, or something like it.
Where's the fun in that?

No matter how profound they try to be most believers portray their god as a puppet master and the whole world as a performance he's putting on.

Must be an easier way to get some sidekicks.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:05 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Sorry but that's like predicting that water will run down a hill.
.
I can show you a place in Palmdale where water runs -uphill-! (when it rains.... coasting uphill on the 10-speed!)
.
http://vimeo.com/71545844

Last edited by I Ratant; 28th April 2014 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:09 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I heard at a spiritualist trance lecture that it takes as many as thousands of incarnations to achive enlightenment and freedom from karma. We may be at a high stage of spiritual develoment, but we still have to incarnate until all karmic debts are settled. We do not only incarnate on this planet, but on many similar worlds at different stages of evolution. This has all happened before in past ages, and many spirits have completed their cycle, and achived a state of grace where they no longer need incarnation. After that they continue on as immortals in higher planes of existence.
How did we incur these karmic debts?
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:15 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
How did we incur these karmic debts?
By bilking gullible people out of their money with promises of special knowledge to help pay off their karmic debts, of course.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:22 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
How did we incur these karmic debts?
Our own actions all have a reaction. Like cause and effect. If we act wrongly against others, it comes back on us as bad karma.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:25 AM   #158
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Read your history and observe how many truly awful people with millions of deaths on their hands died of old age, in bed.
"bad karma" delivered post-mortem?
Meh!
.
Contemplating the afore-mentioned auto-de-fe... those were done by those of good faith on their enemies because they weren't certain that the proper punishment would be delivered to those miscreants after death!
Had to inflict as much pain as possible to the victim while they were available!
And they did many truly awful things to those poor people!
Shoulda pissed their god off, that the believers didn't trust his divine judgement!

Last edited by I Ratant; 28th April 2014 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:32 AM   #159
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scorpion

My father, a very rational man in most ways, believed in the Spiritualist ideas that he would go to different levels when he died, so I understand something of what you believe. I do not, however, believe any of it!

I appreciate that you have not raised this point, but what I would be interested to know is, do you feel it is right to teach children that what you believe is true? Do you think they should be adult before hearing such unevidenced ideas?

Last edited by SusanB-M1; 28th April 2014 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 28th April 2014, 10:47 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
scorpion

My father, a very rational man in most ways, believed in the Spiritualist ideas that he would go to different levels when he died, so I understand something of what you believe. I do not, however, believe any of it!

I appreciate that you have not raised this point, but what I would be interested to know is, do you feel it is right to teach children that what you believe is true? Do you think they should be adult before hearing such unevidenced ideas?
Well I have not really thought about that. But I would ask you the opposite,
what happens to a psychically sensitive child if their parents deny the childs feelings, and tell them they are imagining things? I myself know what that feels like.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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