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Old 6th February 2015, 03:33 PM   #41
Faydra
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He just posted this link on his facebook page..

http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/

His comment was Yes!!

I finally broached the subject and said I was looking forward to the documentary.

Last edited by Faydra; 6th February 2015 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 6th February 2015, 08:43 PM   #42
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Just show your friend Hubbard's "revelation".



https://books.google.com/books?id=1Y...opera)&f=false

(That's a good book, by the way).
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Old 6th February 2015, 09:52 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Faydra View Post
He just posted this link on his facebook page..

http://www.freedommag.org/hbo/

His comment was Yes!!

I finally broached the subject and said I was looking forward to the documentary.
It's nice that your friend enjoys and believes in children's stories.
Which is what Scientology is, a poorly written fairy tale penned by a drug abusing conman.

Slap your friend in the face with a moist kipper.
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Old 6th February 2015, 10:52 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
HBO's upcoming "Going Clear" ,a documentary based on Laurence Wright's bestselling book on the COS, is another sign of the church's declining power and clout.
The film,which Wright wrote and produced, was shown at Sundance and pulls no punches. From the reviews, it's like the book, a devastating look at all the damage that the CO$ has done.
A few years ago, I don't think HBO would have had the guts to do the documentary.
I've just finished the book and it's a devastating indictment of Scientology. The current leader, David Miscavage, comes across as a total sociopath, unlike Hubbard himself who seemed more of an unscrupulous rogue who couldn't belies his luck in getting his nonsense off the ground.

Looking forward to the HBO movie.
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Old 7th February 2015, 12:03 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Crocoshark View Post
But I assure you, like other magic tricks, or just tricks, Scientology DOES seem effective when you first get into it, and that apparent effectiveness is the reason people accept more outrageous claims (It seems to work, Hubbard must know what he's doing), and critics must understand and respect that it seems to work and explain why it seems to work or make sense to be convincing to those who start believing.
Of course it works, and it's easy to see why.

But people ridicule it because ridicule also works, for precisely the same reasons. Really. It actually does, in the same way that rational discussion doesn't.

I'm often frustrated that there is so little reason in skepticism, because I enjoy reason and would like to have more of the stuff I enjoy. But it doesn't persuade anybody of anything.
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Old 7th February 2015, 01:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post
But people ridicule it because ridicule also works, for precisely the same reasons. Really. It actually does,
Not or me.
Originally Posted by epepke View Post
in the same way that rational discussion doesn't.

I'm often frustrated that there is so little reason in skepticism, because I enjoy reason and would like to have more of the stuff I enjoy. But it doesn't persuade anybody of anything.
So you're saying people never reason themselves out of their religious beliefs?

Perhaps neither reason nor ridicule work, at least not alone; and it all relies on the reason or ridicule connecting to someone's personal experiences. Personal experiences must first involve something negative, and reason/ridicule can capitalize on that. But neither will work if the person has no negative experiences to connect the reason/ridicule to.
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Old 7th February 2015, 05:26 AM   #47
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It's kind of sad that Scientology has to deal with "bitter, vengeful apostates" who have been expelled from the Church. If only there were some way to reach people and cure them of such extreme negativity. If only there were some tech available to address human failings and elevate us above such pettiness.
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Old 7th February 2015, 01:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by kajata View Post
Scientology is done though it will be awhile until they disappear completely as they have large cash reserves.

Their money comes from a few big donors that have been in the church a long time. Anyone with access to Google steers clear of them. Their churches are empty and the media is no longer scared of them.
Several months ago I read an article that analyzed their business model. Most of their cash reserves are kept in off-shore accounts (~$1billon) they own ~$500million in real estate in the US. The main thrust was that if the IRS pulled their tax exempt status the Co$ would take a serious financial blow. Any transfer of off-shore funds and the IRS would be grabbing big chunks of it. I imagine they would have to unload most of their real estate and move their main operations out of the country. The Europeans have made them very unwelcome, so that could be a problem as well. Somalia might be a good place for them.
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Old 27th February 2015, 04:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I went to a very interesting and entertaining talk on $cientology at Nottingham Skeptics in the Pub last night*. I couldn't remember much recent conversation on here regarding the "church," and so I did a search on the tags and there's only one thread in the last six months.

Does that reflect a reduction in the threat, or indicate that FredCarr's book and DVD business was a success and all those with doubts have signed up or is the lack of new, nuttier revelations detract from the topic?





*
Create Your Own Cult, the Scientology Way by Martin Poulter
There was an article in the Tampabay Times (a source of many articles on Scientology) this week on that subject.

The gist was that Scientology is running out of private investigators to go after all the members who leave or the reporters who investigate.

They are now happy to just scam those who want to be separated from their money.
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Old 27th February 2015, 06:07 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Elind View Post
There was an article in the Tampabay Times (a source of many articles on Scientology) this week on that subject.

The gist was that Scientology is running out of private investigators to go after all the members who leave or the reporters who investigate.

They are now happy to just scam those who want to be separated from their money.
I doubt they are happy. I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices. I just finished Lawrence Wrights Book "Going Clear" and I had trouble putting the book down. I saw an interview with Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and they stated they have had far less harassment than former defectors and reporters who have written negative stories in the past.
The church has had serious blows to their credibility in the past and this up-coming documentary by Gibney won't help a bit. My understanding is the BBC is planing a documentary as well. Their poster boy, Tom Cruise, is not a very convincing spokesman for the cause.
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Old 28th February 2015, 09:34 AM   #51
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I briefly caught a commercial for $cientology on TV last night. The channel or network did not register but the gist of the ad was that "science + technology" = Scientology. Assuming I saw the whole thing, it was about 15 seconds long and cost about $10 to produce.

"How the Mighty have Fallen."
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Old 28th February 2015, 10:19 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices.
The internet is their single biggest enemy. Back in the '70s and '80s they could harrass former members with near impunity. Who would find out besides your family and close friends. Today, anyone can set up a blog or go to discussion boards and tell the world how the Co$ has mistreated them.

Steve S
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Old 28th February 2015, 03:12 PM   #53
MontagK505
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Originally Posted by steve s View Post
The internet is their single biggest enemy. Back in the '70s and '80s they could harrass former members with near impunity. Who would find out besides your family and close friends. Today, anyone can set up a blog or go to discussion boards and tell the world how the Co$ has mistreated them.

Steve S
I agree. Videos of people wearing "Squirrel Busters" caps, who are apparently Scientology goon squads, harassing Marty Rathbun and his wife, don't help the image of the Co$ one bit.
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Old 28th February 2015, 08:56 PM   #54
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But the CO$ still has it's useful idiots:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000129/board/?ref_=nm_bd_sm

What is bad about the Tom Cruise fanboys is that their ignorance about the CO$ is willful;they don't know because they don't want to know. And I am so tired of the "CO$ is no worse then any other religion" B.S. It's not about the COS's crazy beliefs but about the way they abuse their power.
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Old 1st March 2015, 02:39 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Crocoshark View Post
For the record, I think non-members critical of the church are terrible when it comes to persuading anyone favorable toward Scientology. The extremes on both sides are just too . . . extreme. The critics charge forward metaphorically waving their arms going "Run! It's sinister and evil! Fear the threat! It's a cult where everything in it is just a deliberate scheme of brainwashing!" A critic not writing "Scientology" without replacing the S with a dollar sign makes them sound more bitter than sensible, like someone who must write "crapple" instead of "apple" because they hate apples. They come forward talking only about the most ridiculous aspects of the religion rather than the courses that make up most of a Scientologist's experience, talking endlessly about Hubbard and scandals of the church rather than how pseudoscientific auditing or the content of its courses are. It just. doesn't. come off. as level-headed. It's like the difference between a Libertarian using reasoned arguments to describe how government and various regulations are flawed and an anti-government ranter talking about how the government and various regulations are evil. The inability to refer to Scientology in a neutral way sometimes comes off the same

I'm saying this as someone who grew up in Scientology, is critical of Scientology most of the time and no longer counts himself as a Scientologist. Maybe it's just me but the extreme of negativity critics *need* to describe Scientology with comes off to me the same way as Scientology's need to make Psychiatry as evil as possible; it can't just be wrong and pseudoscientific, etc. It has to be actively evil and menacing and out to get you. It can't just be full of unsubstantiated non-science that can seem effective or legitimate at first like any alternative medicine or pseudo-therapy, but than falls apart on closer inspection, no it has to be so oooobviously retarded that it's genuinely insulting to anybody who might be considering it or taken in, because they must be so duuumb and laughably stupid to be taken in by something sooooo oooobviously outrageous.

But I assure you, like other magic tricks, or just tricks, Scientology DOES seem effective when you first get into it, and that apparent effectiveness is the reason people accept more outrageous claims (It seems to work, Hubbard must know what he's doing), and critics must understand and respect that it seems to work and explain why it seems to work or make sense to be convincing to those who start believing. You don't debunk alternative medicine without explaining the placebo effect, you don't debunk psychics or astrology without explaining the Forer effect, but I get the impression skeptics think they can debunk Scientology by explaining nothing about why people feel it works for them.

Even as an ex-Scientologist, I still find most criticism of Scientology totally unconvincing. It must be convincing to some people, otherwise it wouldn't be made, but I just don't see it. At all.
You are, I trust, aware it was completely made up in the mind of a life-long con man and perpetual liar. If you know that much, why would anything else about it matter???
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Old 1st March 2015, 05:23 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You are, I trust, aware it was completely made up in the mind of a life-long con man and perpetual liar. If you know that much, why would anything else about it matter???
But would "real" scientologists actually believe you?
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Old 1st March 2015, 10:56 AM   #57
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Co-incidentally I heard an interview with a practitioner (and salon owner) in/of Bikram Yoga. Bikram Yoga is currently in the news because its founder Bikram Choudhury is being accused sexual assault by a number of (ex-)acolytes. The person being interviewed said that she had studied under Choudhury, always had her suspicions about him and tended to believe that the accusations were true. However, she was continuing to believe in, practice, and teach the truths of the Bikram system.

Aha, I thought, Scientology -- L Ron Hubbard -- Freezoners (vide: Free_Zone_(Scientology)WP). As with many cults.

This I call the "There must a pony in here somewhere" syndrome"*.

==========
* But most of the time it really is just a pile of manure.
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Old 1st March 2015, 11:52 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Co-incidentally I heard an interview with a practitioner (and salon owner) in/of Bikram Yoga. Bikram Yoga is currently in the news because its founder Bikram Choudhury is being accused sexual assault by a number of (ex-)acolytes. The person being interviewed said that she had studied under Choudhury, always had her suspicions about him and tended to believe that the accusations were true. However, she was continuing to believe in, practice, and teach the truths of the Bikram system.

Aha, I thought, Scientology -- L Ron Hubbard -- Freezoners (vide: Free_Zone_(Scientology)WP). As with many cults.

This I call the "There must a pony in here somewhere" syndrome"*.

==========
* But most of the time it really is just a pile of manure.

I had a conversation about this Bikram thing that made me think. I used to do Bikram Yoga some years ago, but quit in the heat of the summer*, and I've hardly been back since. Anyway, a friend of mine was telling about this Bikram-the-rapist business, and thought that I should never go back. Even though the place I go is not owned by him, they presumably pay a franchise fee and patronizing that business is putting money into Bikram's pocket. This friend also made the point that doing Bikram Yoga is "offering moral support to a rapist," which is just the kind of intangible argument that does not usually affect me.

*After a session of Bikram, I can not even wear cotton next to my skin for hours as I am perspiring so much, even after a cold shower. And I can walk around in subfreezing weather in short sleeves for a while too. In any case, on a hot summer day, this effect is just too much.
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Old 1st March 2015, 01:22 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
You are, I trust, aware it was completely made up in the mind of a life-long con man and perpetual liar. If you know that much, why would anything else about it matter???
I think what you overlook is that many people have taken their entry level course work and have derived positive benefit from it. Lawrence Wright makes this point in his book. That's what can make it so seductive. L Ron Hubbard was a genus in some ways, but you are right, he was con-man and a liar.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 07:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
I doubt they are happy. I suspect it's more of a PR move on Scientology's part simply because it brings more negative attention to their practices. I just finished Lawrence Wrights Book "Going Clear" and I had trouble putting the book down. I saw an interview with Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and they stated they have had far less harassment than former defectors and reporters who have written negative stories in the past.
The church has had serious blows to their credibility in the past and this up-coming documentary by Gibney won't help a bit. My understanding is the BBC is planing a documentary as well. Their poster boy, Tom Cruise, is not a very convincing spokesman for the cause.
I'm reading it right now. It is a disturbing book.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 08:27 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Crocoshark View Post
For the record, I think non-members critical of the church are terrible when it comes to persuading anyone favorable toward Scientology. The extremes on both sides are just too . . . extreme. The critics charge forward metaphorically waving their arms going "Run! It's sinister and evil! Fear the threat! It's a cult where everything in it is just a deliberate scheme of brainwashing!" A critic not writing "Scientology" without replacing the S with a dollar sign makes them sound more bitter than sensible, like someone who must write "crapple" instead of "apple" because they hate apples.
I had a Scientology phase where I picked up everything I could find about the cult, because it's just so crazy, paranoid, and even criminal. The impression I got is that the reason why Scientology critics are often so extreme is because they're usually ex-Scientologists. They're unhinged because they were traumatized. Scientology unhinged them. Unfortunately, you're right...it can harm their credibility, especially when the things that they're claiming are so outrageous. For outsiders, it's hard to imagine that something like Scientology exists.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 09:06 AM   #62
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Regarding your plight, let me tell you that I had a friend who once wrote to me asking my opinion about some ridiculous muslim rebuttals of evolution, because she had met some muslim guy and heīd sent her that crap. Well, I didīt pay much attention, told her it was all B.S. but didnīt go into a detailed point by point dissection of the arguments. Next time I wrote to her, she told me that she couldnīt talk to me any more because she was married to a muslim man and so on. That was years ago and Iīve never heard of her again. Completely dissapeared from the face of the earth.

I`ve been kicking myself since. I should have noticed the danger and should have tried to help her understand how wrong those muslim apoligist arguments were... I know perhaps there wasnīt much I could have done, if she loved that guy logic alone wasnīt going to turn her from him, but still.... what a pity.

So if thereīs anything you can do, do it before itīs too late and one of your friend joins the cult... thatīs my opinion.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 11:01 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Abooga View Post
Regarding your plight, let me tell you that I had a friend who once wrote to me asking my opinion about some ridiculous muslim rebuttals of evolution, because she had met some muslim guy and heīd sent her that crap. Well, I didīt pay much attention, told her it was all B.S. but didnīt go into a detailed point by point dissection of the arguments. Next time I wrote to her, she told me that she couldnīt talk to me any more because she was married to a muslim man and so on. That was years ago and Iīve never heard of her again. Completely dissapeared from the face of the earth.

I`ve been kicking myself since. I should have noticed the danger and should have tried to help her understand how wrong those muslim apoligist arguments were... I know perhaps there wasnīt much I could have done, if she loved that guy logic alone wasnīt going to turn her from him, but still.... what a pity.

So if thereīs anything you can do, do it before itīs too late and one of your friend joins the cult... thatīs my opinion.

I'm guessing that if she is a person who would get into a situation (marriage and new religion) that would lead her to shun you, then no amount of talking logic would have penetrated.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 01:19 PM   #64
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For those unfamiliar with the whacky, criminal world of Hubbard, Miscavige and $cientology Google for: Tony Ortega Underground Bunker. if you're new to the disturbing, but sometimes hilarious practices of this cult it's a long but interesting insight.
It's updated daily and includes, for example, latest updates on the current court cases against the cult and all kinds of goodies.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 04:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Shrike View Post
I'm reading it right now. It is a disturbing book.
The war record
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Old 2nd March 2015, 08:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Axiom_Blade View Post
I had a Scientology phase where I picked up everything I could find about the cult, because it's just so crazy, paranoid, and even criminal. The impression I got is that the reason why Scientology critics are often so extreme is because they're usually ex-Scientologists. They're unhinged because they were traumatized. Scientology unhinged them. Unfortunately, you're right...it can harm their credibility, especially when the things that they're claiming are so outrageous. For outsiders, it's hard to imagine that something like Scientology exists.
That was my initial reaction while reading "Going Clear". However, I am reminded of the abuses found in reform schools and orphanages, many that go unreported for decades. They found a reform school in Florida with bodies of inmates buried in the nearby woods. Look at some of the workhouses and orphanages run by the Catholic Church. After razing one of these "Houses of Mercy" in Ireland they discovered several hundred infant skeletons in a large septic tank. So yes, this can go on under the nose of local authorities.

The problem the CoS has right now, is that some of the highest ranking former executives have defected, not to mention their former "Poster Boy" Paul Haggis. These are people who have received the most advanced levels of Scientology's "spiritual technology" and yet they are now liar's frauds, etc. etc.It doesn't fit. The number of high ranking people that have "blown" gives lie to their claim that the "technology" will save human civilization.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 09:24 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by hgc View Post
I had a conversation about this Bikram thing that made me think. I used to do Bikram Yoga some years ago, but quit in the heat of the summer*, and I've hardly been back since. Anyway, a friend of mine was telling about this Bikram-the-rapist business, and thought that I should never go back. Even though the place I go is not owned by him, they presumably pay a franchise fee and patronizing that business is putting money into Bikram's pocket. This friend also made the point that doing Bikram Yoga is "offering moral support to a rapist," which is just the kind of intangible argument that does not usually affect me.

*After a session of Bikram, I can not even wear cotton next to my skin for hours as I am perspiring so much, even after a cold shower. And I can walk around in subfreezing weather in short sleeves for a while too. In any case, on a hot summer day, this effect is just too much.
This is a little off-topic, but Bikram studios are completely independent, and the fees they charge go only to the studio and the instructors and not to Bikram himself. Of course, to become an instructor costs money, and that does go to Bikram.

Bikram is a genuine crazy person, and is this close to being a full on cult leader, but the method works for a lot of people. There's not a lot yet in the way of published scientific work on the benefits, but there's some.

Apologies for the derail.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 10:24 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is a little off-topic, but Bikram studios are completely independent, and the fees they charge go only to the studio and the instructors and not to Bikram himself. Of course, to become an instructor costs money, and that does go to Bikram.

Bikram is a genuine crazy person, and is this close to being a full on cult leader, but the method works for a lot of people. There's not a lot yet in the way of published scientific work on the benefits, but there's some.

Apologies for the derail.
It's only a minor derail. And, importantly, it does address the fact that a process can be useful, while the principle it's based on is completely wrong. It's the honey trap that many religious ideology's set.
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Old 2nd March 2015, 11:21 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
It's only a minor derail. And, importantly, it does address the fact that a process can be useful, while the principle it's based on is completely wrong. It's the honey trap that many religious ideology's set.
It's not even that the principle it's based on is completely wrong. The process and the principle can be absolutely correct, while the founder is crazy.
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Old 3rd March 2015, 07:21 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by hgc View Post
I'm guessing that if she is a person who would get into a situation (marriage and new religion) that would lead her to shun you, then no amount of talking logic would have penetrated.
Maybe. Maybe not. If they were easily influenced by Islam at that time, they might have been just as easily influenced by skepticism. In any case, there's no sense in Abooga beating themselves up about it now... but it's a good experience to have had if the opportunity presents itself again.
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Old 3rd March 2015, 07:53 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
Look at some of the workhouses and orphanages run by the Catholic Church. After razing one of these "Houses of Mercy" in Ireland they discovered several hundred infant skeletons in a large septic tank. So yes, this can go on under the nose of local authorities.
You clearly missed the corrections that came out pretty quickly after those initial reports.

There were not several hundred bodies in the former septic tank.
The kids that found it in the 70s only ever claimed maybe 20.

No one is sure where the hundreds who died in the home were buried, but the tank does not appear to have been more than a convenient place for a few.

Of course, that's not to say that the conditions there weren't scandalous, hence the investigation, but there's no need to overegg it.
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Old 3rd March 2015, 12:57 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
You clearly missed the corrections that came out pretty quickly after those initial reports.

There were not several hundred bodies in the former septic tank.
The kids that found it in the 70s only ever claimed maybe 20.

No one is sure where the hundreds who died in the home were buried, but the tank does not appear to have been more than a convenient place for a few.

Of course, that's not to say that the conditions there weren't scandalous, hence the investigation, but there's no need to overegg it.
Thanks for the correction.
The main point to keep in mind is that institutional abuse can go on for years without anyone outside the group being aware. That's why I find the conditions described by some Scientology defectors believable. (No, I don't think the Co$ has bodies buried anywhere. )
One point that Paul Haggis made is that the CoS has publicly denied the policy of "disconnection" and anyone who is involved with the church in any depth knows that this is a lie. If they lie about this, what else do they lie about?
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Old 3rd March 2015, 01:19 PM   #73
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fredcarr? Still out there? Still a member in good standing?
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Old 4th March 2015, 03:38 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
The war record

What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.
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Old 5th March 2015, 12:54 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.
Many of the medals that the Co$ thinks Hubbard won, didn't even exist when he was discharged. And some of them never existed.

BTW I try to use Co$ instead of CoS so people don't confuse the Church of Scientology with the Church of Satan. (The Church of Satan seems to be a more honest organization)
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Old 5th March 2015, 01:07 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post

BTW I try to use Co$ instead of CoS so people don't confuse the Church of Scientology with the Church of Satan. (The Church of Satan seems to be a more honest organization)

I think you're absolutely right.

And yes, Hubbard lied about his war record, and the Co$ has been supporting his lies.
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Old 5th March 2015, 01:14 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.
Brave deeds without a shadow of a doubt, but the bravest, surely, was to pick up an unexploded enemy shell from the deck of his ship and to throw it overboard only to have it explode in mid-air and inflict severe stomach ulcers on our hero.
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Old 5th March 2015, 10:03 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
What is amazing is the COS continues to insist that L Ron was a war hero, when the US Navy records say otherwise.
The Highlights of his career are sinking a non existent Japanese Submarine and Bombarading a Unihabited Island off the coast of Mexico. It's lucky that Navy never let him get anywhere near an actual war zone.
According to "Going Clear" (the book) the Co$ claims that there were two sets of records for Hubbard because of L Ronny's involvement with secret intelligence operations with Robert Heinlein penetrating Russian spy rings. and the records that the Co$ has are the "real" ones. The ones that Lawrence Wrights fact checkers got from St. Louis have been altered to hide L Ron's majestic heroism.

Lawrence stated that he has contacted people who are working on Heinlein's biography and they have found nothing that would remotely support any of this. And it get's deeper and deeper and deeper.
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Old 10th March 2015, 11:35 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
According to "Going Clear" (the book) the Co$ claims that there were two sets of records for Hubbard because of L Ronny's involvement with secret intelligence operations with Robert Heinlein penetrating Russian spy rings. and the records that the Co$ has are the "real" ones. The ones that Lawrence Wrights fact checkers got from St. Louis have been altered to hide L Ron's majestic heroism.

Lawrence stated that he has contacted people who are working on Heinlein's biography and they have found nothing that would remotely support any of this. And it get's deeper and deeper and deeper.
Heinlein was a friend of Hubbard, but when some of Heinlein's navy friends clued him in about Hubbard's phony war record and his faking of injuries, the friendship ceased.
A couple of Heinlein's later novels have mentions of Scientology,all of them unfavorable.
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Old 18th March 2015, 11:24 PM   #80
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Just read about the cruel punishments that LRH meted out to the original Sea Org - what an absolutely monstrous individual.
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