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Old 19th March 2015, 01:27 PM   #81
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Just read about the cruel punishments that LRH meted out to the original Sea Org - what an absolutely monstrous individual.
It was that in "Going Clear" which made me change my mind about Hubbard:Up until then I just considered him a con man and a fraud;and that the really abusive side of COS did not come in until Misciviage took over;but now I consider Hubbard a psychotic monster,and that abuses in the COS started with Hubbard, Misciviage just got it organized and took it to a new level.
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Old 19th March 2015, 04:05 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It was that in "Going Clear" which made me change my mind about Hubbard:Up until then I just considered him a con man and a fraud;and that the really abusive side of COS did not come in until Misciviage took over;but now I consider Hubbard a psychotic monster,and that abuses in the COS started with Hubbard, Misciviage just got it organized and took it to a new level.
The really monstrous thing is what they do to children.

The future of Scientology: [url="http://tonyortega.org/2015/03/19/going-clear-fallout-imagining-the-fate-of-scientology-and-david-miscavige/#more-21101"]

This shows how the present situation came to be and speculates on what might happen.
Quote:
I have a feeling that the IRS or the FBI is biding its time, watching as Scientology continues to shrink and weaken. At some point, they’ll move in. And then Miscavige and Scientology will be caught up in court actions basically forever, and a succession will be a moot point.
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Old 30th March 2015, 12:39 PM   #83
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Well, "Going Clear" certainly ripped the CO$ a new one.
A few people are complaining that the show only spent a short time on the COS's beliefs (the whole Xenu saga) but IMHO concentrating on the way the COS abuses people both inside and outside the Church was the right approach. That is what makes the COS so dangerous and despicible. Their beliefs are insane, but no more so then other UFO cults.
But most of the other UFO cultus are relatively harmless, the COS is not.
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Old 30th March 2015, 01:23 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, "Going Clear" certainly ripped the CO$ a new one.
A few people are complaining that the show only spent a short time on the COS's beliefs (the whole Xenu saga) but IMHO concentrating on the way the COS abuses people both inside and outside the Church was the right approach. That is what makes the COS so dangerous and despicible. Their beliefs are insane, but no more so then other UFO cults.
But most of the other UFO cultus are relatively harmless, the COS is not.
I agree, the ideology is no more insane than virgin births, talking serpents, demons, evil spirits etc. Their actions are despicable, at present the Church has been going after the former members who spoke out in the movie, the attacks on the film makers have been mild by comparison. I noticed that as the air date approached, there were more frequent news articles about the documentary. The Co$ has made a lot of enemies in the news world, it's common knowledge what they did to Paulette Cooper and the day for vengeance may have arrived.
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Old 30th March 2015, 01:33 PM   #85
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One thing that was in the film that was not in the book and is making the headlines is the COS apparently had Nicole Kidman's phone bugged after she broke up with Cruise. A lot of "what did Tom know and when did he know it" discussion about that.
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Old 30th March 2015, 02:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
One thing that was in the film that was not in the book and is making the headlines is the COS apparently had Nicole Kidman's phone bugged after she broke up with Cruise. A lot of "what did Tom know and when did he know it" discussion about that.
The subject of Tom Cruise is becoming a problem for me. Normally, unless they do something really outrageous, I generally ignore the politics, antics and religious ideologies of entertainment celebrity's. But the fact is, TC has benefited heavily from the quasi-slave labor from the Co$, he can't help but know this, and that makes him an accessory to what they do.
The Co$ auditioning girl friends for him is downright creepy. Katie Holmes divorcing him to keep their daughter away from Scientology doesn't help him either. Like Michael Vick, it gets to the point that you can't look at the man without being reminded of what he is.
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Old 30th March 2015, 09:10 PM   #87
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I did not see the movie, but I actually listened to the book. I have three observations and a question.

-I don't think it can be regarded out of the context of evolving new faith movements.

-as the author argued, LRH worked long past the point of a con. There was too much of him invested. I respect that to the extent I will respect crazy people.

-I find it notable that Miscavige, as the next leader in a religion, never claims special insight PR interpretation of the material. Heck, as far as I can tell, he never talks about even being a very good scientologist.

- the church claims he broke up. Black magic cult, right? Is that a tacit admission that they believe black magic is real? Or did it just need to be broken up because of more mundane crimes?
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Old 30th March 2015, 11:41 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I did not see the movie, but I actually listened to the book. I have three observations and a question.

-I don't think it can be regarded out of the context of evolving new faith movements.

-as the author argued, LRH worked long past the point of a con. There was too much of him invested. I respect that to the extent I will respect crazy people.

-I find it notable that Miscavige, as the next leader in a religion, never claims special insight PR interpretation of the material. Heck, as far as I can tell, he never talks about even being a very good scientologist.

- the church claims he broke up. Black magic cult, right? Is that a tacit admission that they believe black magic is real? Or did it just need to be broken up because of more mundane crimes?
In the books epilogue it states that shortly before LRH's death there was a conversation between his personal security guard that Hubbard didn't plan to return after his death because he had failed to do what he had set out to do. (clear the planet?) Hubbard was very ill and perhaps a little crazy and was telling a last minute tall tale or he may actually have come to believe his own BS.
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Old 31st March 2015, 10:47 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
In the books epilogue it states that shortly before LRH's death there was a conversation between his personal security guard that Hubbard didn't plan to return after his death because he had failed to do what he had set out to do. (clear the planet?) Hubbard was very ill and perhaps a little crazy and was telling a last minute tall tale or he may actually have come to believe his own BS.
Did someone forget to report this conversation to the general horde? All that effort to build, furnish and maintain an office for him in every Org on Teegeeack for his use on his return has been wasted?
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Old 31st March 2015, 11:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Did someone forget to report this conversation to the general horde? All that effort to build, furnish and maintain an office for him in every Org on Teegeeack for his use on his return has been wasted?

What ev's... The illusion of the immortality and ultimate return of the godhead figure is paramount. Your stinkin' facts are useless.
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Old 31st March 2015, 02:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Did someone forget to report this conversation to the general horde? All that effort to build, furnish and maintain an office for him in every Org on Teegeeack for his use on his return has been wasted?
Apparently not. There were only two people that were comms between LRH and the main church org. One of them was DM. There is no indication that anyone spoke to LRH's personal security man.
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Old 31st March 2015, 06:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by MontagK505 View Post
Apparently not. There were only two people that were comms between LRH and the main church org. One of them was DM. There is no indication that anyone spoke to LRH's personal security man.
Ah. So. OK. Just carry on with the occasional furniture dusting and vacuuming then. He could be back any day now.
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Old 1st April 2015, 11:48 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I did not see the movie, but I actually listened to the book. I have three observations and a question.

-I don't think it can be regarded out of the context of evolving new faith movements.

-as the author argued, LRH worked long past the point of a con. There was too much of him invested. I respect that to the extent I will respect crazy people.

-I find it notable that Miscavige, as the next leader in a religion, never claims special insight PR interpretation of the material. Heck, as far as I can tell, he never talks about even being a very good scientologist.

- the church claims he broke up. Black magic cult, right? Is that a tacit admission that they believe black magic is real? Or did it just need to be broken up because of more mundane crimes?
B.S.
Most evolving new faith movement don't do the evil crap the CO$ does.
The CO$ should be treated as a crinimal orgnization,and Misdavige should be in jail.
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Old 3rd April 2015, 08:48 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
B.S.
Most evolving new faith movement don't do the evil crap the CO$ does.
The CO$ should be treated as a crinimal orgnization,and Misdavige should be in jail.
Being a new faith movement is independent of evil or criminal activity.
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Old 3rd April 2015, 10:18 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Being a new faith movement is independent of evil or criminal activity.
All New Faith Movements are not involved with criminal and out and out evil activities, but the CO$ sure as hell is.
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Old 4th April 2015, 08:27 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
All New Faith Movements are not involved with criminal and out and out evil activities, but the CO$ sure as hell is.
Butca religion can be both a religion and criminal. Or, they succeed in clearing the world and it is the greatest good for the greatest number of whatever they call it.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:15 PM   #97
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The High Noon Of Scientology

So, SNL more or less eviscerated Scientology tonight. If you didn't see it, I'm sure they'll have it up sometime this week.

To me, this seems like a turning point. It appears criticism of Scientology has hit the mainstream.

Anyone else see this as a culturally important moment.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:20 PM   #98
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http://www.mediaite.com/tv/brilliant...fad-religions/

Is that the right video?
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:22 PM   #99
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The "L. Ron" images were both frighteningly and hilariously accurate.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:30 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
To me, this seems like a turning point. It appears criticism of Scientology has hit the mainstream.

Anyone else see this as a culturally important moment.
Not really - I think South Park's dealing with the organization was probably a more significant moment
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:33 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by MG1962 View Post
Not really - I think South Park's dealing with the organization was probably a more significant moment
Yeah. The whole "This is what Scientologists actually believe" thing was pretty good.

But I guess explaining what Scientology does to its members to prevent them from, or punish them for, leaving is more likely to convince people to do anything other than laugh at the silliness.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:36 PM   #102
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Never Mind. Beaten. South Park.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:44 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
Yeah. The whole "This is what Scientologists actually believe" thing was pretty good.

But I guess explaining what Scientology does to its members to prevent them from, or punish them for, leaving is more likely to convince people to do anything other than laugh at the silliness.
Well it probably does not matter much, the membership numbers are crashing world wide. In Australia for instance at the last census. There were three times as many identifying their religion as Jedhi as there were COS.
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Old 4th April 2015, 10:50 PM   #104
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It is sad that it has taken this long for Scientology to decline. It is a mark of shame upon our species.
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Old 5th April 2015, 01:01 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by hgc View Post
What ev's... The illusion of the immortality and ultimate return of the godhead figure is paramount. Your stinkin' facts are useless.
I agree. The "Going Clear " doc showed part of DM's speech about Hubbard's death. He said that Hubbard had finished his research and reached an even higher OT level, that his body wasn't needed anymore. So, LRH is still out there in some form. It isn't shown in the doc, but the lawyer who oversaw LRH's cremation followed DM. He said that LRH's body could have easily sustained him for a much longer time. However, LRH chose to leave it. It was a creepy presentation by the two of them.

Here is a YouTube clip of DM and the lawyer. It includes snarky subtitles added by the poster.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 5th April 2015, 06:45 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by ehcks View Post
Yes. That was fast.
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Old 5th April 2015, 07:36 AM   #107
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Hahaha, the original video that they are mocking is the one that features Mike Adams the health ranger.
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Old 5th April 2015, 07:52 AM   #108
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I'm not a big fan of Scientologists. I wonder why they call themselves that anyway? They don't appear to be in the least bit scientific.
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Old 5th April 2015, 08:26 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not a big fan of Scientologists. I wonder why they call themselves that anyway? They don't appear to be in the least bit scientific.
Marketing. If they can self present as having some factual basis, it is easier to lure in the unwary having a veneer of reality and respect simply by having "science" in the name. They couldn't even manage to get the whole word in, just enough to sucker the gullible.
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Old 5th April 2015, 10:29 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not a big fan of Scientologists. I wonder why they call themselves that anyway? They don't appear to be in the least bit scientific.
They really only began to identify themselves as a church once the tax battle began. Prior to that they did have a scientific veneer to their activities
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Old 6th April 2015, 06:16 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
I agree. The "Going Clear " doc showed part of DM's speech about Hubbard's death. He said that Hubbard had finished his research and reached an even higher OT level, that his body wasn't needed anymore. So, LRH is still out there in some form. It isn't shown in the doc, but the lawyer who oversaw LRH's cremation followed DM. He said that LRH's body could have easily sustained him for a much longer time. However, LRH chose to leave it. It was a creepy presentation by the two of them.

Here is a YouTube clip of DM and the lawyer. It includes snarky subtitles added by the poster.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Not say that someone's set of category definitions is proof of reality, but it is worth noting that when scholars list the common characteristics that define cults, a living, charismatic leader is usually on the list. And to sidestep the what-is-a-cult quagmire, I would say that this characteristic can be found in all sorts of so-called new religious movements and similar type groups (and long established religions too!).

As with so many movements, Scientology's founder is imbued by himself and his followers with having special revealed knowledge that forms the basis of the sacred texts and rules for living, and also with some form of immortality. The faithful themselves are usually seeking immortality, and if it is not demonstrated in the person of the founder/spiritual avatar, then that's a fly in the ointment. Furthermore, the authority of the founder in the minds of the faithful is extended beyond his death if he is believed to not really have died.

This is why L. Ron Hubbard was said by Miscavige to have "dropped his body" and all the other nonsense. And this is why ISKCON ("Hare Krishna") literature never refers to founder Prabhupada in the past tense, even though he died in 1977. This is why Christ, in the body of Jesus of Nazareth, rose from his tomb and ascended to Heaven (an event marked by people strolling 5th Avenue wearing fancy hats, only yesterday as a matter of fact).

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Old 6th April 2015, 08:02 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I'm not a big fan of Scientologists. I wonder why they call themselves that anyway? They don't appear to be in the least bit scientific.
They claim that LRH invented his own science. You'll often hear them refer to "tech" as well. In their parlance, "tech" consists of actual practices, while "science" is their philosophies and beliefs.

Basically they repurpose regular English words to mean a new thing. It is completely self-consistent, but at odds with the way the rest of the English speaking world use the words.
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Old 7th April 2015, 08:39 AM   #113
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Dumb idea to merge these threads. Please stop with the over-moderation. This ain't JREF anymore.
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Old 7th April 2015, 12:20 PM   #114
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The thing I don't get is how scientology got a single follower. I mean really a 3rd rate(not even that) sci fi writer basically says' give me all your money,drop your friends and family,answer a load of embarassing questions,be talked to and be treated like dirt,play embarrassing sci-fi roleplay,get absolutely nothing in return AND when you don't feel awesome at the end of it its YOUR fault and he still got thousands of converts. I love sci-fi(and fantasy) but I know its not real. Scientologists must think dune is the equivalent of gibbons decline and fall or that captain kirk is Magellan for the space age. Personally I would rather cover myself in petrol and strike a match than be a scientologist it would hurt less ,be quicker and be a whole lot cheaper.
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Old 7th April 2015, 06:39 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
The thing I don't get is how scientology got a single follower. I mean really a 3rd rate(not even that) sci fi writer basically says' give me all your money,drop your friends and family,answer a load of embarassing questions,be talked to and be treated like dirt,play embarrassing sci-fi roleplay,get absolutely nothing in return AND when you don't feel awesome at the end of it its YOUR fault and he still got thousands of converts. I love sci-fi(and fantasy) but I know its not real. Scientologists must think dune is the equivalent of gibbons decline and fall or that captain kirk is Magellan for the space age. Personally I would rather cover myself in petrol and strike a match than be a scientologist it would hurt less ,be quicker and be a whole lot cheaper.
The thing is that it does not start out by revealing all the nonsense you get as you rise through the Theatanic Levels. No scam ever reveals that it is a scam. First you get sucked in by the "intelligence test". The brainwashing follows.

As Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free". Though today it's the Internet that says that.
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Old 7th April 2015, 11:17 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by skeptichaggis View Post
The thing I don't get is how scientology got a single follower.
Really?
Surely you understand that less than a fraction of one percent of the population knows as much about Scientology as you do. And surely you understand that less than five percent of the population has the means and desire to objectively check up on a church like Scientology before joining.

The CoS grew to its current size because so many people leap before they look. Add to that the difficulty the average adult has in understanding sunk costs. And add to that the difficulty the average adult has in admitting an expensive error. Personally, I am surprised that the CoS is losing power so quickly.
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Old 7th April 2015, 11:28 PM   #117
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Relevant:

5 Brainwashing Tricks That Work No Matter How Smart You Are

The first part is all about Scientology.
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Old 8th April 2015, 08:43 AM   #118
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no more insane than any other religion

Xenu and the galactic federation is really no dafter than a talking snake,Muhammad's flying horse,reincarnation or hitching a lift on the hale-bop comet. The claim that anyone can fall for those scams is(I think,but I'm wrong more often than right) not entirely correct. Even when I was ten if someone had tried to tell me Asimov's the last question-one of my all time fav SciFi tales-was true and tried to sell me a religion based on it I would have ran and told my dad a weird scary man was talking to me.
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Old 8th April 2015, 08:56 AM   #119
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I watched Going Clear over the weekend.

It didn't surprise me much, the "fair game" tactic has been well documented and the Co$ practices and tactics in dealing with critics is well known, but I had no idea how the Co$ went after the IRS during the tax exempt investigation - I wonder how the media would report on such a campaign today.

In watching it I did come to understand why two individuals I knew for many years that converted to Co$ don't want to have anything to do with me.
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Old 8th April 2015, 12:14 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
I watched Going Clear over the weekend.

It didn't surprise me much, the "fair game" tactic has been well documented and the Co$ practices and tactics in dealing with critics is well known, but I had no idea how the Co$ went after the IRS during the tax exempt investigation - I wonder how the media would report on such a campaign today.

In watching it I did come to understand why two individuals I knew for many years that converted to Co$ don't want to have anything to do with me.
I recommend reading the book very strongly. It has a lot of information they did not have have time for in the documentary.
I also recommend "Bold Faced Messiah" which goes into more detail about the life of Hubbard then "Going Clear" does.
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