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Old 27th September 2017, 06:35 AM   #41
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post

I know that when I die, I return to non-existence for an eternity.
In my experience of attending spiritualist churches since the 1960's you are entirely mistaken.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Links to other posts I've made where I quote and link to other people's research and specific examples of how superstitious delusions arise.
But none of them refute what I said.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you may believe that it's a fact, but it isn't
You're not arguing with me. This is well-researched stuff, you're arguing with scientists. Feel free to post links to studies that refute this if you want.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
1) Sometimes people make decisions and defend them when faced with conflicting evidence.
Duh. Obviously it happens more in some situations than others. Obviously I'm not saying humans can never change an opinion or admit when they're wrong. I don't form strong opinions about ham sandwiches, so you telling me something about them that conflicts with what I currently believe isn't going to meet with the same kind of resistance that it would if it involved religion, politics, sports, etc.

You seem to be assigning the most extreme and exaggerated possible version of my statement to me. It's a straw man.

Take a deep breath. Start over. I'm not saying that your points are all garbage or anything. I'm just saying I disagree that fixing those things would remove certain cognitive biases, and that those cognitive biases would continue to cause trouble.

Look up the backfire effect, for example. Multiple studies have shown that when you give someone information that conflicts with their beliefs they actually double down rather than changing their minds. This effect isn't going to just go away, it's a part of how we think.
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Old 27th September 2017, 07:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
But none of them refute what I said.
They all refute what you said and are still saying. They make it clear where and when people tend to resort to magical thinking, superstition and religion, thus refuting the idea that brain evolution somehow makes them do it!
Quote:
You're not arguing with me. This is well-researched stuff, you're arguing with scientists. Feel free to post links to studies that refute this if you want.
No, I am arguing with you and with what you imagine scientists say. So far, I have seen nothing but false claims from you about what scientists allegedly say, not a scrap of evidence or even an attempt at a solid argument.
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Duh. Obviously it happens more in some situations than others.
Yes, duh, and in most situations the exact opposite of your claim is what happens.
Quote:
Obviously I'm not saying humans can never change an opinion or admit when they're wrong. I don't form strong opinions about ham sandwiches, so you telling me something about them that conflicts with what I currently believe isn't going to meet with the same kind of resistance that it would if it involved religion, politics, sports, etc.
Now we're getting somewhere: You're admitting that you have been generalizing. And again you should consider carefully what you're talking about: politics, sports and religion how exactly? 'Oh, I thought that he was playing for Man U. My mistake, mate!' Are you talking about sports fans or about people who don't really give a damn? (Me, for instance!)
Quote:
You seem to be assigning the most extreme and exaggerated possible version of my statement to me. It's a straw man.
No, not really. "generally" was your word, not mine. If you don't mean generally, you shouldn't say so. So let's hear again: What exactly is your claim, and where is the scientific evidence?
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Take a deep breath. Start over. I'm not saying that your points are all garbage or anything. I'm just saying I disagree that fixing those things would remove certain cognitive biases, and that those cognitive biases would continue to cause trouble.
No, my points are true, and you seem to know it. "Those things" already have removed certain cognitive biases in my country. Most people don't really need religion any more so they give it up. You won't have a hard time persuading most Danes that there's no afterlife, for instance. That's what's so wonderful about a secure and comfortable life*: You don't seem to need the idea of an afterlife where you're compensated for the awful one you had to live on Earth! (And a weird piece of information from Phil Zuckerman's book: religion doesn't seem to help the believers in their hour of need, when they're in a hospice, dying!) Society without God. (And again: Consider why you are so adamant about this belief of yours!)
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Look up the backfire effect, for example. Multiple studies have shown that when you give someone information that conflicts with their beliefs they actually double down rather than changing their minds. This effect isn't going to just go away, it's a part of how we think.
Someone who? What information? Conflicts with whose belief in what? Which "multiple studies"? Who are the people who don't change their minds? What are the circumstances? Is it everybody? Just some people?
At least you now seem to recognize that it's about thinking and not about brains!
If you have references to science, abstracts, for instance, then I would expect them to make it clear who the test subjects are supposed to be representative of, and I would expect them to know what kind of beliefs they are talking about.

* Not that living conditions in Denmark still don't leave a lot to be desired for many people!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 27th September 2017, 08:04 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
They all refute what you said and are still saying.
You're focusing on one thing, which can be true *in addition to* the phenomenon I'm talking about. Therefore it doesn't refute what I said.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
'Oh, I thought that he was playing for Man U. My mistake, mate!' Are you talking about sports fans or about people who don't really give a damn? (Me, for instance!)
Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, my points are true, and you seem to know it. "Those things" already have removed certain cognitive biases in my country.
It seems like you're not grasping the difference between cognitive biases and specific beliefs. You should probably learn more about that.
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Define reality?
Reality? Paying income taxes. I tried to tell the government that my 'taxes owing' was just an illusion and that I actually didn't owe them anything at all. They explained to me the 'reality' of prison time and that had me convinced.

Seriously though, I claim to acknowledge my reality with a 'reasonable' certainly. The "illusion" of my life is indeed my reality and I claim that with a reasonable certainty.

You're asking for an 'absolute' definition of reality and I can't give you that. Absolute is an intangible. I do not not claim to be absolutely certain that our world isn't a 'Matrix' like CG universe. But I'm reasonably certain that it isn't...
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:27 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In my experience of attending spiritualist churches since the 1960's you are entirely mistaken.
Fair enough. When you die, shoot us all an email telling us what it's like. Then maybe you can change my mind...
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:41 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
If fretting over other people's belief systems is your worst problem, you are one lucky person.
I wouldn't say that it's my worst problem. My biggest issue is trying to decide the most appropriate way to load the toilet paper roll. Is it best to have it unravel from the top-outer or the bottom-inner? This one has been keeping me awake at nights.

In any case, I started this thread to see if there were any others who felt the way I do. Evidently there are some. I was wondering if the way I felt was illogical or irrational and that it might be just me. I just wanted to know if there were others who felt the same and I've gotten my answer...
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Old 27th September 2017, 08:53 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
You're focusing on one thing, which can be true *in addition to* the phenomenon I'm talking about. Therefore it doesn't refute what I said.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse.

It seems like you're not grasping the difference between cognitive biases and specific beliefs. You should probably learn more about that.
There is no "phenomenon" any more!
You could at least acknowledge what your claim has been reduced to: Sometimes in certain circumstances some people won't give up on firmly held false beliefs in spite of evidence to the contrary. It's very hard to use that as an argument for deficiently evolved brains: Their brains actually obey them! The brains do what they want them to do!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
My biggest issue is trying to decide the most appropriate way to load the toilet paper roll. Is it best to have it unravel from the top-outer or the bottom-inner? This one has been keeping me awake at nights.
That's a much more sensible question, but depair no more!
70 % <--> 30 %.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th September 2017, 09:41 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Reality? Paying income taxes. I tried to tell the government that my 'taxes owing' was just an illusion and that I actually didn't owe them anything at all. They explained to me the 'reality' of prison time and that had me convinced.

Seriously though, I claim to acknowledge my reality with a 'reasonable' certainly. The "illusion" of my life is indeed my reality and I claim that with a reasonable certainty.

You're asking for an 'absolute' definition of reality and I can't give you that. Absolute is an intangible. I do not not claim to be absolutely certain that our world isn't a 'Matrix' like CG universe. But I'm reasonably certain that it isn't...
But you will agree with me that reality, whatever it may be is elusive, and everything we see and touch is an illusionary construct of atoms which are themselves nothing but energy formed into particles.

In theory I believe I am right in saying that all matter could be converted back into energy, like a big bang in reverse. We experience reality as the illusion our body's senses perceive, but it simply is not like that.

In such a world that is simply energy congealed into what appears solid to us surely anything is possible. Including the existence of other dimensions we cannot perceive with our senses.
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Old 27th September 2017, 10:09 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is no "phenomenon" any more!
Cool story.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But you will agree with me that reality, whatever it may be is elusive, and everything we see and touch is an illusionary construct of atoms which are themselves nothing but energy formed into particles.
How far down the navel-gazing hole do you really want to go? You're straining the definition of 'illusion' and 'reality' already.

The real world is real. It exists. Our perception of that world is imperfect and incomplete, but through careful use of our limited information and some logic we can figure out a lot of stuff that we can say for sure is reality.

And if you want to get picky, fine, this could all be an elaborate virtual reality program invented just for you and nobody else is real and you're a brain in a jar in yet another VR universe which is in another VR universe which is actually the daydream of an autistic boy with a snowglobe. But unless you have an actual way to test that or a way in which it changes anything about how I live my life I don't see any point in speculating.
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Old 27th September 2017, 10:12 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Their brains actually obey them! The brains do what they want them to do!
No, There is no soul. Their brains are them.

Cognitive_biasWP is what he's talking about, and these result from the way our brains evolved. It doesn't mean they can't be overcome for specific things, but those biases remain and are a part of who we, as humans, are.

The whole point of the scientific method, for instance, was based on recognizing that these biases exist for all humans, and developing a process to try and minimize their influence.
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Old 27th September 2017, 10:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In my experience of attending spiritualist churches since the 1960's you are entirely mistaken.
Here we go again. You've droned on about this nonsense for a while, and any time someone asks you for even shred of evidence, you basically begin making up excuses, lol. Either take a dump or get up off the toilet and get a life.
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That's a much more sensible question, but depair no more!
70 % <--> 30 %.
Thanks for that! It was a most interesting read. However I'm afraid that I'm in the minority. I just don't want this thread to turn into another one of those huge 'over-or-under' debates. I understand that they can be can be pretty nasty. But I think that'll stick with the under-inner orientation. I've often been considered somewhat of a rebel anyway...
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:24 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Here we go again. You've droned on about this nonsense for a while, and any time someone asks you for even shred of evidence, you basically begin making up excuses, lol. Either take a dump or get up off the toilet and get a life.
That was the gist of my reply to the same post. A minuscule shred of credible evidence is all that we're asking for. Barring that, discussions on 'life-after-death' should be considered to be for "ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY"...
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:30 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But you will agree with me that reality, whatever it may be is elusive, and everything we see and touch is an illusionary construct of atoms which are themselves nothing but energy formed into particles.
Well it's an interesting argument. So "reality is elusive" is it? I think that I'll try that argument with the tax people again this year. Wish me luck...
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Old 27th September 2017, 12:37 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
And if you want to get picky, fine, this could all be an elaborate virtual reality program invented just for you and nobody else is real and you're a brain in a jar.
I once had a boss who kept his brain in a jar. He would show it to anybody. He was actually quite proud of it. It was in a hermetically sealed vacuum IIRC...
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Old 27th September 2017, 01:49 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Fair enough. When you die, shoot us all an email telling us what it's like. Then maybe you can change my mind...
They would do but death apparently interferes with you being able to remember your full name, the full name and birthday of your wife of 60 years, or exactly how many children you had....
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:32 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
They would do but death apparently interferes with you being able to remember your full name, the full name and birthday of your wife of 60 years, or exactly how many children you had....
I can accept that. Perhaps then just a selfie with The Almighty, or Satan, or whoever. If there's an afterlife surely there must also be Twitter and Facebook...
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Old 27th September 2017, 03:43 PM   #60
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Further to the OP, what prompted this thread was a discussion I was having with a couple of guys about UFOs and alien abduction. I tried to explain the issue from the skeptics' POV just using simple facts and logic but I was vehemently attacked with vicious insults and ad homs and accused of not having an 'open mind'.

I realize that this is par for these types of discussions but the level of idiocy in their replies was, for me, somewhat unsettling. I guess it just troubles me that we share the planet with people who are still this incredibly stupid. It kinda shakes my faith in the future of mankind...
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Old 27th September 2017, 04:40 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I've been an Atheist and a skeptic for most of my adult life. From time to time, I get this kinda surreal 'Twilight Zone' creepy feeling knowing that we are surrounded by so many people who just refuse or who are unable to acknowledge reality.

Does anyone else here ever feel like that?

It bothers me somewhat when I get that feeling although I know that there isn't anything that I can do about it. Knowing that there is nothing I can do to change that is just how I deal with it although I find that it's still unsettling...
Are you a strong atheist? By that I mean, are you convinced that reality is such that there are no gods?
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:09 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you a strong atheist? By that I mean, are you convinced that reality is such that there are no gods?
I am 'reasonably' certain that there is no god. I don't like to claim that I'm 'absolutely' certain for the reason that I gave in an earlier post.

I am just as certain that there is no god as I am certain there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. TBH, I think the possibility of there being a Tooth Fairy is more likely than the existence of a god. (I mean whenever I lost a tooth, I at least got paid. That's more evidence than I've ever had for any god.)

I'm not deliberately trying to be smug here. I'm just trying to explain, as simply as I can, what I mean when I say that I'm reasonably certain...
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:20 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
I am 'reasonably' certain that there is no god. I don't like to claim that I'm 'absolutely' certain for the reason that I gave in an earlier post.

I am just as certain that there is no god as I am certain there is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. TBH, I think the possibility of there being a Tooth Fairy is more likely than the existence of a god. (I mean whenever I lost a tooth, I at least got paid. That's more evidence than I've ever had for any god.)

I'm not deliberately trying to be smug here. I'm just trying to explain, as simply as I can, what I mean when I say that I'm reasonably certain...
Then I view you the same way you view other people in your opening post.
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:26 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Then I view you the same way you view other people in your opening post.
Provide credible evidence for a god, alien abduction or for UFOs and maybe then I'll change my mind. I'll go grab a
snack while I wait...
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Old 27th September 2017, 05:48 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Provide credible evidence for a god, alien abduction or for UFOs and maybe then I'll change my mind. I'll go grab a
snack while I wait...
Agnosticism does not require evidence. YOU are claiming reality is a certain way (atheistic). I make no claims, other than to wonder why you are so sure of yours. I recommend Plato, Hume, Descartes and Berkeley. There's nothing I can add to what's already been said.
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Agnosticism does not require evidence. YOU are claiming reality is a certain way (atheistic). I make no claims, other than to wonder why you are so sure of yours. I recommend Plato, Hume, Descartes and Berkeley. There's nothing I can add to what's already been said.
Agnosticism is imo, Nothing more than people who are atheists who don't want some of the baggage that comes with the label.

Atheism makes no claims, It is a position on one question; Do you believe god exists? Any answer other than yes makes you an atheist, period.

Gnostic and Agnostic refer to knowledge ( I know, I don't know)
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Old 27th September 2017, 06:35 PM   #67
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I'm an atheist, I believe the evidence is overwhelming that humans invented god fiction and there is no contradictory evidence for alternate hypotheses.

As for being bothered, yes, the more Roy Moores, Jeff Sessions and Mike Pences there are in our government, along with their enablers including Trump, is getting more bothersome by the day. And that's on top of the more than bothersome religious fanatics killing people over their beliefs.

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Old 27th September 2017, 06:56 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Agnosticism does not require evidence. YOU are claiming reality is a certain way (atheistic). I make no claims, other than to wonder why you are so sure of yours. I recommend Plato, Hume, Descartes and Berkeley. There's nothing I can add to what's already been said.
Well, I've never read, observed or experienced anything that gives me a rational reason to think that there might be a god.

Examine your own reasons for not believing in the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny. I don't believe in any sort of god for those exact same reasons...
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Old 27th September 2017, 07:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I'm an atheist, I believe the evidence is overwhelming that humans invented god fiction and there is no contradictory evidence for alternate hypotheses.
There are countless videos online that justify and support Atheism. This Richard Carrier video is one of my favourites. It really says all that needs to be said in a nutshell. Religion is most certainly man-made...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ2kGJk4Jo4
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Old 28th September 2017, 12:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There's nothing wrong with human brains! (Well, of course, there are a couple that are flawed, otherwise brain surgery wouldn't be necessary, but that's not what's bothering people in this thread …)
Brains enable us to think, to understand, and the ability to think includes the ability to come up with completely wrong ideas as well as the ability to correct them - if you choose to do so.
The question that we should ask ourselves is not why people now and then come up with bad ideas, but why so many people choose to hold on to them in spite of the sometimes pretty obvious signs that they are wrong.
However, that question has also been answered - and in recent years the answer has been confirmed in experimental settings: Many people have miserable lives and need religion and superstition as consolation, so if you want to improve their willingness to think straight, you should try to create living conditions that allow them to do so.
I've encountered many people who were living very comfortable lives yet believed in the likes of astrology, dowsing, psychic mediums and homeopathy. So it's clearly not as straightforward as you are suggesting.

The cognitive bias explanation seems reasonable to me. The assumption that what your instincts are telling you is correct is a perfectly natural one to make, if you are unaware of the existence of such biases.
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Old 28th September 2017, 06:30 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Here we go again. You've droned on about this nonsense for a while, and any time someone asks you for even shred of evidence, you basically begin making up excuses, lol. Either take a dump or get up off the toilet and get a life.
Like I have said before , evidence of the afterlife is subjective. You can get evidence of survival if you listen to enough spiritualist mediums, but is only evidence to you and anecdotes to everyone else. If a medium told you, you had a brother that died in the war as a baby, and you found out this was true, as happened to me. You might consider that evidential.

In any case I have had personal telepathic information directly to my mind from the spirit world. They said I would have a win on the lottery an hour before the draw, and I had a five number win on that occasion. That is personal evidence to me alone that I can sometimes receive messages from the spirit world myself. So it is not just that I have had evidential messages from mediums. I also know there is a psychic reality from my own experiences.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:11 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Like I have said before , evidence of the afterlife is subjective. You can get evidence of survival if you listen to enough spiritualist mediums, but is only evidence to you and anecdotes to everyone else.
No, it's anecdotes to you too. You are no more justified in drawing conclusions from such anecdotes than we are.

We see this assumption from believers all the time: that their subjective experiences are sufficient to convince them, objective evidence is only required to convince others of what they "know" to be true. But this is simply not the case. We have learned the hard way that it's very easy to inadvertantly fool yourself into believing something that isn't true. That's why the scientific method had to be invented.

None of your anecdotes justify you assuming a supernatural explanation because alternative mundane explanations are available for all of them. The standard of evidence that needs to be met is the same for you as it is for us.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Like I have said before , evidence of the afterlife is subjective. You can get evidence of survival if you listen to enough spiritualist mediums.
Do you understand what 'cold reading' is and how it works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
They said I would have a win on the lottery an hour before the draw, and I had a five number win on that occasion. That is personal evidence to me alone that I can sometimes receive messages from the spirit world myself.
I highly recommend this book. It gives a non-supernatural explanation...

https://www.amazon.ca/People-Believe...e+weird+things
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Autolite View Post
Do you understand what 'cold reading' is and how it works?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading
Mediums have told me facts that could not be cold reading. The medium that told me I had a brother that died in the war gave me his name, and the circumstances of his death. I did not know about it and said no to everything she said. In the end she looked crestfallen and said, "well ask your mother about it" . When I asked my mother she confirmed it was true and she had never been to the church, and did not believe, so she was shocked when I told her I had a message from her son who had grown up in the spirit world.

I had been going to church for two years before I got this message and I had learned not to give mediums any information, and I deliberately kept a straight face when they spoke to me so not to give any signals.
So yes, I understand cold reading.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
So yes, I understand cold reading.
Well if you think that what psychics and mediums are doing is for real, then apparently you don't understand it well enough.

Also you could check out what police do when they interrogate an individual. There is much more too it than you just "keeping a straight face"...
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:51 AM   #76
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You also know about warm and hot reading, because we've explained them to you before when you've trotted out this anecdote. There are many ways this person could have known about your brother, even though you did not. I'm not surprised the medium was crestfallen when you weren't immediately impressed as she would have assumed you knew, and even less surprised that she told you to ask your mother.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:51 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post

None of your anecdotes justify you assuming a supernatural explanation because alternative mundane explanations are available for all of them. The standard of evidence that needs to be met is the same for you as it is for us.
I went to spiritualist churches for thirty or more years, and attended many trance lectures by a number of famous mediums during the 1970's

In that time I had many evidential messages and in the end I concluded the simplest explanation for mediums being so accurate many times was that they were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I know they were not cold reading because of the facts I was told and the idea they were all fooling me with some kind of research is untenable because I attended many different churches up and down the country and saw new mediums I did not know. Never the less they said things like. " I have got your grandmother here, she says she has been through to you many times before".
I did have many messages from my grandparents that told me things only I could have known, and over the years this convinced me some mediums are genuine.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 28th September 2017, 07:55 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You also know about warm and hot reading, because we've explained them to you before when you've trotted out this anecdote. There are many ways this person could have known about your brother, even though you did not. I'm not surprised the medium was crestfallen when you weren't immediately impressed as she would have assumed you knew, and even less surprised that she told you to ask your mother.
I see no way a medium could have known about my brother, as my mother was not a spiritualist and had never been to the church. The medium was visiting the town for the church service, and I had never seen her before.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 28th September 2017, 08:03 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I went to spiritualist churches for thirty or more years, and attended many trance lectures by a number of famous mediums during the 1970's

In that time I had many evidential messages and in the end I concluded the simplest explanation for mediums being so accurate many times was that they were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I know they were not cold reading because of the facts I was told and the idea they were all fooling me with some kind of research is untenable because I attended many different churches up and down the country and saw new mediums I did not know. Never the less they said things like. " I have got your grandmother here, she says she has been through to you many times before".
I did have many messages from my grandparents that told me things only I could have known, and over the years this convinced me some mediums are genuine.
Once again: there is nothing here that cannot be explained mundanely. There are several things at work: every temperature of reading, subjective validation, the natural tendency to remember the hits and forget the misses, malleable memories - the ways in which we can inadvertantly fool ourselves are many and varied. Before you can justifiably conclude a supernatural explanation you need to eliminate all these alternative explanations. That's what the scientific method is for, and whenever it has been applied to these sort of psychic readings it has always shown that such readings are no more accurate than would be expected by chance, no matter how convinced the medium and their clients were to the contrary.
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Old 28th September 2017, 08:05 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You also know about warm and hot reading, because we've explained them to you before when you've trotted out this anecdote. There are many ways this person could have known about your brother, even though you did not.
I haven't yet watched this video but it looks like it might be interesting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lgK3A7AUSY
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