ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 23rd October 2017, 08:29 AM   #201
Jodie
Philosopher
 
Jodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 5,983
Bog-gart. I'm not sure what Bogarting a joint is.....
__________________
"When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse out of the corner of my eye. I turned to look but it was gone, I cannot put my finger on it now. The child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb. " Pink Floyd
Jodie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 08:32 AM   #202
Resume
Troublesome Passenger
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,596
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Bog-gart. I'm not sure what Bogarting a joint is.....
Could have fooled me.
__________________
A sentimental materialization of the kind of quasi‐rural bonhomie that seemed a millimeter from actual goose‐stepping and brown‐shirt uproars of bumpkin fascism.

Tom McGuane
Resume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 08:33 AM   #203
William Parcher
Show me the monkey!
 
William Parcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 17,988
Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
prey upon us just as lions prey upon humans if they are hungry

It's scary if you think about it

What I call boggarts has historically been referred to as jinn, demons, fallen angels, or what have you

some kind parasitic fashion in an alternate dimension
These boggarts keep themselves alive by sucking the souls from living people.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 81_s_c1.jpg (46.9 KB, 1 views)
__________________
Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
William Parcher is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 08:38 AM   #204
turingtest
Mistral, mistral wind...
 
turingtest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,668
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science has not defined reality to my satisfaction, it has just put scientific limits on it. But there is still much that is unknown.
And that's where woo gets its boost- to think that either science or reality have any obligation to personal satisfaction.
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV;
I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems
Deep Purple- "The Aviator"

Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King
turingtest is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 08:47 AM   #205
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Could have fooled me.
Indeed. Pass it on.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 09:45 AM   #206
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
And that's where woo gets its boost- to think that either science or reality have any obligation to personal satisfaction.
Science too is full of bull. The theory of multiverses is basically invented to try to explain how our universe could possibly have come into existence by itself.

The idea being that there are so many things that have to be exactly right for the universe to work, let alone to produce intelligent life, there may be infinite failed universes.

So the God of the gaps is alive and well outside the universe, as the primary cause. Because if this is the only universe that exists, it is a miracle.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 09:51 AM   #207
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,839
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science too is full of bull. The theory of multiverses is basically invented to try to explain how our universe could possibly have come into existence by itself.
No, that's not why the idea of a multiverse was originally proposed. Several different kinds of multiverse are suggested by the theories of modern physics, none were proposed in response to the fine tuning argument (which is itself on very dodgy ground logically and evidentially).

Quote:
The idea being that there are so many things that have to be exactly right for the universe to work, let alone to produce intelligent life, there may be infinite failed universes.
Again, no, that's not why the idea of a multiverse was originally proposed.

Quote:
So the God of the gaps is alive and well outside the universe, as the primary cause. Because if this is the only universe that exists, it is a miracle.
No, that doesn't follow.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:07 AM   #208
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,250
Science doesn't even say there is no God. It just says we don't have any evidence to support the idea of a god or gods.

Also, even if there is a creator god, there are hundreds of religions with creator gods, whose other beliefs completely contradict yours.
How is an impartial observer to determine which of the many One True Revelations is the correct one?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:13 AM   #209
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Science doesn't even say there is no God. It just says we don't have any evidence to support the idea of a god or gods.

Also, even if there is a creator god, there are hundreds of religions with creator gods, whose other beliefs completely contradict yours.
How is an impartial observer to determine which of the many One True Revelations is the correct one?
The fact that there are hundreds of religions shows it is part of human psychology to seek contact with the divine. That they are wrong about the details is because the divine mind is vast and incomprehensible to the tiny human intellect. We cannot get a handle on God because he is the infinite mind and we are very finite. So all religions are bound to fail in the details.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:30 AM   #210
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post


No, that doesn't follow.
I may be wrong about the reason for the theory of multiverses, but am I wrong about this universe being miraculous?
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:35 AM   #211
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,839
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I may be wrong about the reason for the theory of multiverses, but am I wrong about this universe being miraculous?
Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-t...of_fine-tuning
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:36 AM   #212
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science too is full of bull.
I appreciate your "too" which thus dips your alternatives in poo.

Naturally, I reject the dipping of science in the same poop, however you are one step further from goop.

A step is a mile in such fields of pile.

Quote:
The theory of multiverses is basically invented to try to explain how our universe could possibly have come into existence ..[clichesnip]
How original of you. It's not like this exact idea has risen and set a million times.

I'd clap, but I can't afford the sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The fact that there are hundreds of religions shows it is part of human psychology to…yaaaaaawwwwnsnip]
Human psychology does not equal reality. You can see a pig in a storm-cloud. Does it fly?

__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:37 AM   #213
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,250
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The fact that there are hundreds of religions shows it is part of human psychology to seek contact with the divine. That they are wrong about the details is because the divine mind is vast and incomprehensible to the tiny human intellect. We cannot get a handle on God because he is the infinite mind and we are very finite. So all religions are bound to fail in the details.
Even if you were right... That doesn't answer my question.
How can we know your religion is better than other folks'?

For example, you've started several threads to criticize Islam, but by your own admission, Mohammed's just as likely to be correct as Mme. Blavatsky.

If you do maintain that your spiritualist New Age world view is better, then tell us how you know.
And remember: "Just take my word for it." won't convince anyone, because that's what all your competitors say too.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 10:41 AM   #214
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Science has not defined reality to my satisfaction, it has just put scientific limits on it.
As I said, if reality disagrees with what you would like to be true, then reality must be wrong.

Quote:
But there is still much that is unknown.
There is. The video I posted addresses this point in detail. In short - in this particular subject we know within what parameters those unknown things must fall. This means that what you're suggesting is impossible.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:01 AM   #215
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Even if you were right... That doesn't answer my question.
How can we know your religion is better than other folks'?

For example, you've started several threads to criticize Islam, but by your own admission, Mohammed's just as likely to be correct as Mme. Blavatsky.

If you do maintain that your spiritualist New Age world view is better, then tell us how you know.
And remember: "Just take my word for it." won't convince anyone, because that's what all your competitors say too.
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
As I have said I attended many trance lectures where the spirits purportedly used a mediums mouth to speak. Overall what they taught made sense to me.

Blavatsky was a self confessed fake and if you want to verify that you only have to read the secret doctrine. She says in the opening that it comes from a magic book called the book of Dyzan which was magically treated to be fireproof and waterproof. Then she talks of Atlantis in the Atlantic and we have maps of the sea bed to prove no such continent could have existed. The sea bed is consistent with Europe and America being forced apart by the mid Atlantic fissure.

I know Blavatsky was a fake the same way I know Muhammad was a fake. By applying reason to it.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:04 AM   #216
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Quote

As yet, there is no evidence for the existence of a multiverse
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:07 AM   #217
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
As I have said I attended many trance lectures where the spirits purportedly used a mediums mouth to speak. Overall what they taught made sense to me.

Blavatsky was a self confessed fake and if you want to verify that you only have to read the secret doctrine. She says in the opening that it comes from a magic book called the book of Dyzan which was magically treated to be fireproof and waterproof. Then she talks of Atlantis in the Atlantic and we have maps of the sea bed to prove no such continent could have existed. The sea bed is consistent with Europe and America being forced apart by the mid Atlantic fissure.

I know Blavatsky was a fake the same way I know Muhammad was a fake. By applying reason to it.
You apply reason like an old roller applies paint. Your opening sentence rolls a fallacy and skids down the wall from there.

(I stick to my metaphors, dammit!)
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:08 AM   #218
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As yet, there is no evidence for the existence of a multiverse
Since when did you start caring about evidence?
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:09 AM   #219
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,839
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Quote

As yet, there is no evidence for the existence of a multiverse
Correct. But completely missing the point.

To spell it out: there is considerable dispute that the so called fine tuning argument is a valid argument.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:10 AM   #220
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
Oh please - surely you can see the flaws in that reasoning?
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
As I have said I attended many trance lectures where the spirits purportedly used a mediums mouth to speak. Overall what they taught made sense to me.
Apart from those works you had to discard you mean?


Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Blavatsky was a self confessed fake and if you want to verify that you only have to read the secret doctrine. She says in the opening that it comes from a magic book called the book of Dyzan which was magically treated to be fireproof and waterproof. Then she talks of Atlantis in the Atlantic and we have maps of the sea bed to prove no such continent could have existed. The sea bed is consistent with Europe and America being forced apart by the mid Atlantic fissure.

I know Blavatsky was a fake the same way I know Muhammad was a fake. By applying reason to it.
I know all mediums are fake in the sense of not being able to communicate with spirits by the use of reason and evidence.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:15 AM   #221
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,250
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
If you believe your spiritualist New Age world view is better, then tell us how you know.
And remember: "Just take my word for it." won't convince anyone, because that's what all your competitors say too.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
I specifically asked you to support your claim and not ask us to simply take your word for it.
Religion X is true, because it comes directly from God X.
Religion Y is true, because it comes directly from God Y.
Religion Z is true because it comes directly from spirits.
It's all the same bare assertion without any evidence.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:23 AM   #222
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Darat View Post

I know all mediums are fake in the sense of not being able to communicate with spirits by the use of reason and evidence.
How many mediums have you actually consulted. How many years have you attended trance lectures and how many years have you been to spiritualist churches?

For myself I started going in the 1960's and spent most of the 1970's attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:38 AM   #223
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Since when did you start caring about evidence?
I have investigated a lot of things over the years since the early 1960's.

I rejected Scientology without even going in the door, because they were too pushy trying to get me to take a free personality test. I subsequently discovered it is their standard ploy to fail your test and say they can help you.
Then if you are dumb enough to stay the course they will make a slave out of you, and charge you thousands and thousands of pounds.

I rejected Japanese Buddhism after a brief time.

I rejected the teachings of Guru Maharaji of the divine light mission.
Even before he said that Alexander palace was a space ship.
I rejected him because he said you needed him to reach God.

And so on.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 11:42 AM   #224
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,250
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
How many mediums have you actually consulted. How many years have you attended trance lectures and how many years have you been to spiritualist churches?

For myself I started going in the 1960's and spent most of the 1970's attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London.
Millions of Christians have attended multiple church services every week for decades.
Tens of thousands of Scientologists have spent fortunes on audits for decades to free themselves of body thetans.
I don't know how many Buddhist monks have spent decades of their lives dedicating every hour of their day to the tenets of their religion.

Belief doesn't magically turn into fact after enough time has been invested.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:14 PM   #225
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post

Belief doesn't magically turn into fact after enough time has been invested.
Actually it is evidence that made me believe that the spirit world exists.

I have already recounted various evidential messages I can remember that I was given over the years, and there were a lot of less evidential ones that supported my general belief that some mediums were genuine.

For example, one medium that I had never seen before said to me.
" I've got your grandmother here, she says she has been through to you many times before" The medium then went on to give me a message but I cannot remember what else she said.
The evidence was that she knew my grandmother had regularly given me messages in other churches through other mediums.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:31 PM   #226
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 16,551
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Spiritualism is more likely to be the real truth than any old religion, because its teachings come directly from the spirit world, and the dead should know.
Other religions claim to have their teachings come directly from God. Why is he not a reliable source of information?
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:35 PM   #227
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually it is evidence that made me believe that the spirit world exists.
No.

No it isn't. No, it wasn't.

It was belief in belief. You made a connection in your head and have wrongly taken it as reality. You refuse to face this, skipping all posts that challenge you.

I suppose it's human nature; but it's still exhausting.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:37 PM   #228
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have investigated a lot of things over the years since the early 1960's.

I rejected Scientology without even going in the door, because they were too pushy trying to get me to take a free personality test. I subsequently discovered it is their standard ploy to fail your test and say they can help you.
Then if you are dumb enough to stay the course they will make a slave out of you, and charge you thousands and thousands of pounds.

I rejected Japanese Buddhism after a brief time.

I rejected the teachings of Guru Maharaji of the divine light mission.
Even before he said that Alexander palace was a space ship.
I rejected him because he said you needed him to reach God.

And so on.
You are intellectually dishonest until you "and so on" spiritualism too. Using the exact same reasoning you just listed.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:37 PM   #229
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
How many mediums have you actually consulted. How many years have you attended trance lectures and how many years have you been to spiritualist churches?

For myself I started going in the 1960's and spent most of the 1970's attending trance lectures at the spiritualist association in London.
And?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:38 PM   #230
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 9,839
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The evidence was that she knew my grandmother had regularly given me messages in other churches through other mediums.
Are you serious?

Who is the likeliest member of your family to have passed on? Who is the likeliest person a previous medium would have claimed (and possibly believed) to be the source of whatever information they picked up about you, consciously or unconsciously? And yes, that would certainly include that you visit mediums regularly, that would have been obvious to the most inexperienced cold reader.

Nothing about this anecdote is remarkable. It certainly isn't evidence of the supernatural. It has been patiently explained to you why such anecdotes cannot be used to draw conclusions by anyone, including you.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:40 PM   #231
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Actually it is evidence that made me believe that the spirit world exists.

I have already recounted various evidential messages I can remember that I was given over the years, and there were a lot of less evidential ones that supported my general belief that some mediums were genuine.

...snip...
Yet you also say the spirits have a rule which means they can't provide "evidential messages" you really do tie yourself in knots.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
For example, one medium that I had never seen before said to me.
" I've got your grandmother here, she says she has been through to you many times before" The medium then went on to give me a message but I cannot remember what else she said.
The evidence was that she knew my grandmother had regularly given me messages in other churches through other mediums.

Oh dear....
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:41 PM   #232
Donn
Philosopher
 
Donn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,670
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Who is the likeliest member of your family to have passed on? Who is the likeliest person a previous medium would have claimed (and possibly believed) to be the source of whatever information they picked up about you, consciously or unconsciously?
Oh, don't bother. His arguments are so watertight, a bead of sweat would cause an explosion.
__________________
"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett
"If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans
"I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat
Donn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:45 PM   #233
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yet you also say the spirits have a rule which means they can't provide "evidential messages" you really do tie yourself in knots.
I am pretty sure they are not allowed to give evidence that would change the scientific paradigm. Like some spectacular world changing manifestations. But they are allowed to give subjective evidence to seekers of understanding, or to comfort the bereaved, and suchlike.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:46 PM   #234
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Scorpion - have you ever read: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Psychic-Maf...+psychic+mafia

Wikipedia on the author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Lamar_Keene

"... Keene revealed how he got rich by tricking thousands of people in séances . James Randi, a professional magician, interviewed Keene in 1977, and discovered that Keene was quite unsophisticated in fooling people with magic, but Keene explained that his spiritualist clients were easy to fool . Keene described how the victims fell for the most transparent ruses. Keene coined the term true-believer syndrome in the book ..."
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:46 PM   #235
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am pretty sure they are not allowed to give evidence that would change the scientific paradigm. Like some spectacular world changing manifestations. But they are allowed to give subjective evidence to seekers of understanding, or to comfort the bereaved, and suchlike.
Funny how you have to backtrack... again..
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 12:53 PM   #236
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Are you serious?

Who is the likeliest member of your family to have passed on? Who is the likeliest person a previous medium would have claimed (and possibly believed) to be the source of whatever information they picked up about you, consciously or unconsciously? And yes, that would certainly include that you visit mediums regularly, that would have been obvious to the most inexperienced cold reader.

Nothing about this anecdote is remarkable. It certainly isn't evidence of the supernatural. It has been patiently explained to you why such anecdotes cannot be used to draw conclusions by anyone, including you.
Like she said, my grandmother had been through to me many times before, and many times the message told me things the medium could not have known about me.

I also had a message from my grandfather in which I was told the exact circumstances of his death.

It took two years of attending church services for me to be convinced some mediums are genuine.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:01 PM   #237
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,250
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It took two years of attending church services for me to be convinced some mediums are genuine.
Because most mediums were wrong about most things?
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:02 PM   #238
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
I suggest some of you people go to a spiritualist church and see for yourselves how they operate. The churches exist on small amounts of money that go into the collection plate, and they are run by volunteers. They have a healing service at least once a week, and only get whatever someone puts on the donations plate. The healers get nothing.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:05 PM   #239
Scorpion
Graduate Poster
 
Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Because most mediums were wrong about most things?
No ! because I had to wait for a medium to pick me to give a message and that only happens occasionally. Then not all messages are very evidential, so I had to wait for convincing ones, and that took two years to convince me.
__________________
You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
Scorpion is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd October 2017, 01:11 PM   #240
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 78,842
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I suggest some of you people go to a spiritualist church and see for yourselves how they operate. The churches exist on small amounts of money that go into the collection plate, and they are run by volunteers. They have a healing service at least once a week, and only get whatever someone puts on the donations plate. The healers get nothing.
Done that - typical mixing of cold reading/hot reading and an audience that wants to believe it is true covers it all. No need for any spirits at all.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » General Skepticism and The Paranormal

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:00 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.