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Old Yesterday, 12:45 AM   #1361
Francesca R
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From The Economist a week ago

Quote:
The new censors
In both democracies and dictatorships, it is getting harder to speak up

[ . . . ]

In Britain any discussion of transgender issues is explosive. In September, for example, Leeds City Council barred Woman’s Place uk, a feminist group, from holding a meeting because activists had accused them of “transphobia”. (The feminists do not think that simply saying “I am a woman” should confer on biological males the right to enter women’s spaces, such as changing rooms and rape shelters.)

[ . . . ]

Feminists who question “gender self-identification” (the notion that if you say you are a woman, you should automatically be legally treated as one) are routinely threatened with rape or death.
https://www.economist.com/internatio...-is-tightening
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Old Yesterday, 07:06 AM   #1362
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That article leads to a Sunday Times article, which describes changing rooms rather unlike the one I posted above. Cubicles with air gaps and possibly curtains (attractive to voyeurs) rather than individual rooms with floor-to-ceiling lockable doors. Sounds like they just re-purposed legacy single-sex changing rooms rather than implementing an individualized approach, but then again I've never been to Wolverhampton.
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Old Yesterday, 07:27 AM   #1363
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
That article leads to a Sunday Times article, which describes changing rooms rather unlike the one I posted above. Cubicles with air gaps and possibly curtains (attractive to voyeurs) rather than individual rooms with floor-to-ceiling lockable doors. Sounds like they just re-purposed legacy single-sex changing rooms rather than implementing an individualized approach, but then again I've never been to Wolverhampton.
I don't quite get the Wolverhampton reference, as the article mentions other places, and a google of UK unisex changing complaint throws up many others, including changing areas in clothes shops. Examples from the article and elsewhere, some referring to new or rebuilt facilities:

Women claim they are "uncomfortable" seeing men "parading around naked" in front of them at new unisex changing rooms in a leisure centre.
A gender-neutral "changing village" was created as part of a £10m refurbishment at Bath Sports and Leisure Centre.
---
The data emerged four days after Darren Johnson, a serial voyeur, was sentenced to 16 months’ imprisonment after stalking schoolgirls in the mixed changing area of Putney leisure centre in southwest London.
---
In Cardiff a 1,000-signature petition has recently been collected against gender-neutral facilities at the new Star Hub leisure centre.

And your suggestion of floor-to-ceiling doors, while helping, is going to be expensive and won't stop the kind of flashing mentioned earlier. Not all sexual misconduct involves looking under or over a door.
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Old Yesterday, 07:30 AM   #1364
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Indeed, and they led to a high rate of complaints about sexual misbehaviour in and around those changing rooms. Just by way of an example, one woman was facing a mirror when a man in a cubicle behind her flashed her a number of times by opening the cubicle door. She suffers the flashing while he gets plausible deniability.

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.
Your example sounds more like the woman was using the mirror to peep at unsuspecting men whilst changing.
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Old Yesterday, 07:33 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Your example sounds more like the woman was using the mirror to peep at unsuspecting men whilst changing.
I have no idea what you're talking about. He was in a cubicle and would have been out of sight if he'd kept the door closed.
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Old Yesterday, 07:45 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Women claim they are "uncomfortable" seeing men "parading around naked" in front of them at new unisex changing rooms in a leisure centre.
I imagine most British or American women would indeed be uncomfortable, but what does this have to do with individual lockable rooms?

If you want to argue against unisex open-bay changing rooms, I don't think you're going to find many (Anglophone) people willing to take up the challenge.
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Old Yesterday, 07:58 AM   #1367
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I imagine most British or American women would indeed be uncomfortable, but what does this have to do with individual lockable rooms?

If you want to argue against unisex open-bay changing rooms, I don't think you're going to find many (Anglophone) people willing to take up the challenge.
See the example I've been discussing about the flasher in the mirror. That was an individual lockable room. Even that arrangement doesn't solve the problem, and it's just one kind of arrangement, one that you've been proposing for quite a while.

eta: And I notice there's no shower in that room. How do people get back to their changing room following a shower? Walk back with a towel wrapped around them? Or, if they're going to dress close to segregated showers then why have individual changing rooms in a shared space elsewhere? Just put those changing rooms in the segregated shower area and all is sorted.
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Old Yesterday, 02:11 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I imagine most British or American women would indeed be uncomfortable, but what does this have to do with individual lockable rooms?

If you want to argue against unisex open-bay changing rooms, I don't think you're going to find many (Anglophone) people willing to take up the challenge.
Personally have no prob's with the pictures of unisex toilets you posted. We have those at work.

The issue would be you can't expect every place to afford to retro-fit them for one or two peoples sensitivities. But as a going forward with new buildings they are ok.

Except for the second picture that seems to have viewing windows in the doors, which is just......weird.

But I thought the conversation was about open plan showering and changing areas and not bogs.
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Old Yesterday, 02:14 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I have no idea what you're talking about. He was in a cubicle and would have been out of sight if he'd kept the door closed.
Presumably he was out of sight even with the door opening, apart from the woman who saw it in a mirror?

Otherwise there would have been more than the one complaint from the woman looking into the mirror?

That woman is using mirrors to peep..feeling guilty about peeping, then blaming the victims of her peepyness.
In my opinion.

EDIT:
Also, as an aside
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Just by way of an example, one woman was facing a mirror when a man in a cubicle behind her flashed her a number of times by opening the cubicle door. She suffers the flashing while he gets plausible deniability.
If it was one man facing a mirror when a woman in a cubicle behind him flashed him a number of times by opening the cubicle door, would he suffer the flashing while she gets plausible deniability?

I would suggest he could possibly be judged as using mirrors to peep, or not, who knows.

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Old Yesterday, 02:15 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
See the example I've been discussing about the flasher in the mirror. That was an individual lockable room.
How could someone behind an opaque floor-to-ceiling door have any idea who is looking in the mirror outside of the room they are changing in? Are they just going to flash people entirely at random and hope for the worst? That aside, you'd have to see the layout to understand why that wouldn't be possible with this specific design. Outside of the room is nothing but hallway, so you'd be out of luck unless someone happened to be exiting the changing room opposite your own. I suppose a pervert with excellent hearing and superb timing might just pull it off, but he’d still be guilty of deliberate indecent exposure in any event.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
And I notice there's no shower in that room. How do people get back to their changing room following a shower?
There are several "wet change" rooms (which include showers and toilets) in addition to the "dry change" rooms, but I don't have a photo handy at the moment. These rooms are mostly used by families getting their kids ready for swim lessons, but are also handy for anyone who feels awkward on account of sex transition or gender nonconformance.
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Old Yesterday, 02:35 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
That woman is using mirrors to peep..feeling guilty about peeping, then blaming the victims of her peepyness.

That's nuts.


Because, ya know, women never look in mirrors, do they? What possible reason would a woman have to look in a mirror? I just can't imagine why they would do that, unless they were hoping to see a naked man she doesn't know, because that is so totally a female thing to do.
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Old Yesterday, 02:44 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How could someone behind an opaque floor-to-ceiling door have any idea who is looking in the mirror outside of the room they are changing in? Are they just going to flash people entirely at random and hope for the worst? That aside, you'd have to see the layout to understand why that wouldn't be possible with this specific design. Outside of the room is nothing but hallway, so you'd be out of luck unless someone happened to be exiting the changing room opposite your own. I suppose a pervert with excellent hearing and superb timing might just pull it off, but he’d still be guilty of deliberate indecent exposure in any event.



There are several "wet change" rooms (which include showers and toilets) in addition to the "dry change" rooms, but I don't have a photo handy at the moment. These rooms are mostly used by families getting their kids ready for swim lessons, but are also handy for anyone who feels awkward on account of sex transition or gender nonconformance.
Would be guessing it would be something like this design that would be ok

In spoilers as a large photo

But as I said. You can't expect places to retro-fit them for a couple of people.



Edit: Boxes, but the boxes with squigely lines are showers
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Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's nuts.


Because, ya know, women never look in mirrors, do they? What possible reason would a woman have to look in a mirror? I just can't imagine why they would do that, unless they were hoping to see a naked man she doesn't know, because that is so totally a female thing to do.
Well apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.
I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?

offtopic,
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
because that is so totally a female thing to do.
What's a 'female thing to do'?

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Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.
I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?.
Read this exchange and can't quite get how hard it is to see how the man might know he is viewable in the mirror if he opens the door.

I mean people do know how mirrors work on here?

If I look at it and can see someones face, they can see me.
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Old Yesterday, 03:01 PM   #1375
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Read this exchange and can't quite get how hard it is to see how the man might know he is viewable in the mirror if he opens the door.

I mean people do know how mirrors work on here?

If I look at it and can see someones face, they can see me.
Bottom line, p0lka is trolling. No idea why.
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Old Yesterday, 03:11 PM   #1376
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
How could someone behind an opaque floor-to-ceiling door have any idea who is looking in the mirror outside of the room they are changing in?
Ooh, it's so tricky! The perv, intent on perving (an important point here), opens the door a little and sees a woman looking towards the mirror or even looking towards his door.

Here's a thing - those doors open inwards. It's pretty hard for such a door to swing open accidentally without either the occupant knowing or the door bumping into the backside of the occupant. It wasn't accidental flashing, as the court confirmed.
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Old Yesterday, 03:16 PM   #1377
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
It wasn't accidental flashing, as the court confirmed.
Do you have a link to the case?
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Old Yesterday, 03:23 PM   #1378
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Bottom line, p0lka is trolling. No idea why.
I'm really not, it's just that this example below just mentally slapped me in how subconscious bias is a thing.
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Just by way of an example, one woman was facing a mirror when a man in a cubicle behind her flashed her a number of times by opening the cubicle door. She suffers the flashing while he gets plausible deniability.
apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.

I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?

that subconscious bias seems to be a thing.

EDIT:
The bigger question is why did she continue to look into the mirror and suffer the flashing after the first time?

She was flashed 'a number of times' whilst looking into the mirror? hehe, plausible deniability indeed.

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Old Yesterday, 03:25 PM   #1379
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There are several "wet change" rooms (which include showers and toilets) in addition to the "dry change" rooms, but I don't have a photo handy at the moment. These rooms are mostly used by families getting their kids ready for swim lessons, but are also handy for anyone who feels awkward on account of sex transition or gender nonconformance.
Sounds like a mecca, but a hugely expensive mecca that's mightily unlikely to pop up in everyday places. Certainly not in that growing list of UK venues where women are mightily pissed-off at the way things have changed.

The question remains - how does a non-trans or non-family person get from the shower to the dry-change rooms? The dry ones you proposed earlier as some kind of solution. By this I mostly mean a woman not wanting to encounter men whose nakedness is only covered (on a good day) by the towel wrapped around their waists as they return from the showers?

Even if all the changing areas in the world were enlarged and rebuilt - at colossal expense - according to your scheme it still wouldn't work.
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM   #1380
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Sounds like a mecca, but a hugely expensive mecca that's mightily unlikely to pop up in everyday places.
YMCA family memberships are reasonably priced, but I will happily admit this is the state-of-the-art facility in the metro area. Oklahoma City, though.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The question remains - how does a non-trans or non-family person get from the shower to the dry-change rooms?
Anyone can use the dry change rooms or the wet change rooms. They are both accessible from a common area (lined with lockers) which serves as a transit between the pool and the remainder of the gymnasium.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
I mostly mean a woman not wanting to encounter men whose nakedness is only covered (on a good day) by the towel wrapped around their waists as they return from the showers?
I've spent a fair bit of time around this pool, and I've yet to see anyone naked outside of the men's locker room, which is obviously not the same as the common area described above. If a transman was to be found waltzing around fully nude therein, I'd be amazed but not offended.
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Old Yesterday, 05:22 PM   #1381
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.
If he's naked at the time, then yes it is. (ETA: Based on context and other information presented, it seems highly unlikely that the door opened accidentally.)

Quote:
I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?
If she's naked, she's flashing, but......is that a problem?



And, I would strongly counsel against doing it, and I would even go along with someone who pressed charges against a woman for flashing, but let's be real. Would you really object? I might find it mildly annoying depending on how she did it, but I can't imagine it ruining my day. All things considered, I'm likely to enjoy the experience.
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Old Yesterday, 06:52 PM   #1382
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I'm really not, it's just that this example below just mentally slapped me in how subconscious bias is a thing.

apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.

I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?

that subconscious bias seems to be a thing.

EDIT:
The bigger question is why did she continue to look into the mirror and suffer the flashing after the first time?

She was flashed 'a number of times' whilst looking into the mirror? hehe, plausible deniability indeed.
Think the point was it wasn't once. He kept doing it.
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 PM   #1383
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Well apparently if a man is in a cubicle and the door opens and a woman sees it in a mirror, it is flashing.
I wonder about if a woman is in a cubicle and the door opens and a man sees it in a mirror, is the woman flashing? or is the man peeping?
No, but in the context of the situation the woman interpretted his actions as flashing. Is it necessarily flashing if a man opens a cubicle door before getting fully dressed, and does it several times, within the line of sight of a woman? Certainly it's not, there are other explanations. That's what GlennB meant when he referred to plausible deniability. But based on the situation the woman could tell, from body language, from gaze, etc. that she was being targeted.

Yet somehow you think the woman was both peeping on the man and then reported him for flashing...

I'm going with Meadmaker's assessment.
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