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Old 24th December 2019, 08:42 PM   #1
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Artemis (NASA moon mission)

I figured this one could use its own thread. Seems pretty cool. I wonder how soon it will happen.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T8cn2J13-4

It says the video is 4K, if you have a display big enough for that.

https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/
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Old 24th December 2019, 09:17 PM   #2
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As far as the naming of the mission (Artemis), the first NASA manned mission to the moon was Apollo, and in Greek mythology, Artemis was the twin sister of Apollo. She is also the goddess of the moon (as well as other things). So there's both a moon connection and an Apollo connection there.
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Old 25th December 2019, 06:32 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
As far as the naming of the mission (Artemis), the first NASA manned mission to the moon was Apollo, and in Greek mythology, Artemis was the twin sister of Apollo. She is also the goddess of the moon (as well as other things). So there's both a moon connection and an Apollo connection there.
Well that has to be the most amazing coincidence ever!
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Old 25th December 2019, 08:44 AM   #4
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That's very cool! I hope to see this carried out in reality.

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Old 25th December 2019, 02:34 PM   #5
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I cannot see the point of the spaceship that orbits both the moon and earth. I predict that will be one of the things that will be thrown out between now and when it happens. It also depends on the next US president endorsing this project.

Apart from going to Mars what will this project achieve? The only other real reason for going back is mining.
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Old 25th December 2019, 02:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I cannot see the point of the spaceship that orbits both the moon and earth. I predict that will be one of the things that will be thrown out between now and when it happens.
I don't understand your objection. The point is a spaceship suitable for long-term human habitation. It can orbit Earth, Moon, Mars, Venus, the Sun... Etc. with equal facility. Obvious early stages of development will include short-duration testing in LEO, medium-duration testing in translunar and cislunar flights, and long-duration testing in both those regimes.

Sending it to the moon and back means it can contribute to the development of moon-based infrastructure, in addition to developing techniques and knowledge for long-duration missions.

Probably one of the first long-duration test missions will be an extended stay in LEO, where the crew and the craft are easily accessible from Earth if something breaks unexpectedly, or some unforseen crisis occurs.

On top of all that, once you have a spaceship that can orbit the moon, it can also orbit the Earth. It's literally impossible to throw out "orbits the Earth" at that point. Your objection makes no physical sense, unless you're predicting that they're just not going to build a spacecraft capable of leaving LEO, which seems like a really weird prediction.

tl;dr - WTF are you even talking about?

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Old 25th December 2019, 05:04 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
I cannot see the point of the spaceship that orbits both the moon and earth. I predict that will be one of the things that will be thrown out between now and when it happens. It also depends on the next US president endorsing this project.

Apart from going to Mars what will this project achieve? The only other real reason for going back is mining.
Wait... what?
All we've done to date is live in the ascent/descent modules, then throw them away after the mission (outside of Earth orbit that is). Everything has been driving toward orbital habitats, surface habitats, reusable ascent/descent craft... and some functional deep space transfer ship.
Gravity wells are a bitch... it doesn't make sense any other way without some yet to be developed hyper efficient and affordable power (thrust) source.
Even then, the scales make more sense to; get 'em off the surface, stage in orbit, then transfer to the transit vehicle.
We could have been here 30 years ago, but at least we're pushing forward once more. Still eleventyseven new issues to solve, but this is how you do it.
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Old 25th December 2019, 05:51 PM   #8
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For the past few years, the history of manned spaceflight has been "The best is the enemy of the good." Vehicles have been developed, then discarded when something newer and cooler is proposed, only to be superseded in its turn.

The Orion could have done some of the same things, but the opinion of all the other proposers of competing programs prevailed. Will Artemis be any different?
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Old 25th December 2019, 09:52 PM   #9
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What I am talking about is the spacecraft called Gateway. For more details about that please watch the YouTube. I did make one small mistake. It orbits just the moon not the earth moon system as I said above.

I cannot see the point of missions to the moon first having to dock with Gateway before descending to the moon. The part that descends to the moon is not reusable as they leave part of it behind.

There might be a point in the future to have Gateway. If they can manufacture fuel and other parts needed to land and take off the moon on Gateway, or the moon and then send them up to Gateway. But that will not happen for years after we go back to the moon.

Here is them talking about Gatewayhttps://youtu.be/_T8cn2J13-4?t=176
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Old 25th December 2019, 10:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
What I am talking about is the spacecraft called Gateway. For more details about that please watch the YouTube. I did make one small mistake. It orbits just the moon not the earth moon system as I said above.

I cannot see the point of missions to the moon first having to dock with Gateway before descending to the moon. The part that descends to the moon is not reusable as they leave part of it behind.

There might be a point in the future to have Gateway. If they can manufacture fuel and other parts needed to land and take off the moon on Gateway, or the moon and then send them up to Gateway. But that will not happen for years after we go back to the moon.

Here is them talking about Gatewayhttps://youtu.be/_T8cn2J13-4?t=176
Good correction, fair enough.
I haven't followed the project or watched the vid, so I can't comment on the details you mention. I did see a Manley vid posted a day or two ago but planned on watching it in another few days.
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Old 26th December 2019, 12:50 AM   #11
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The YouTube video I posted above is only 5 and a half minutes long. I know sometimes it's hard to watch videos though, e.g. at work.

Here's Wikipedia entry for more info:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_program
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Old 26th December 2019, 06:49 AM   #12
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The video explains the Gateway a little better than the Wikipedia article. But, still doesn't go into much detail.

It doesn't seem necessary for the missions to the moon, but I suspect it adds more value than it costs. It would start as just a hub and maybe a communications center to which modules can be later attached. If it later evolved into a real space station, it wouldn't cost much more than the ISS to operate and would provide an enhanced platform for supporting operations on the Moon.

The Gateway will be much more useful in orbit around Mars. For one thing, getting people into orbit around Mars will be much easier than getting them to the surface. Humans in orbit around Mars will be able control multiple rovers and other robotic explorers in near real time. In a few weeks, they would probably be able to explore more of Mars than all of the previous landers combined.

As far as the utility of going back to the moon before going to Mars, it seems obvious to me. Developing and testing the systems in an environment where earth is only a few days away (versus months) and communication is only delayed a few seconds (versus minutes) is one benefit.

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Old 26th December 2019, 07:05 AM   #13
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I just hope all of this actually happens while I am around to watch! I can sort of remember watching the ghostly black and white image of Armstrong climbing down the LM's ladder to the moon.

This time we will be able to follow the missions with high-def video and the astronauts Tweeting and blogging from space.

The portion of the taxes I pay which goes to support space exploration amounts to about the cost of my wife and I going to a movie once a year. Nevermind the other benefits, just the entertainment I get from it is worth the cost to me!
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Old 26th December 2019, 07:09 AM   #14
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Gateway seems like it means each mission doesn't have to be a complete LM-AM-CSM stack. You can send different combos of modules, and remix them at Gateway depending on which direction you're going.
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Old 26th December 2019, 10:11 AM   #15
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A very important mission of Gateway is obviously research and mission planning. For the Apollo missions, landing sites had to be planned on Earth, before the mission started, and only minor modifications were possible later on.

The Gateway orbits the moon and makes continuous observations, the expedition docs there and a carefully selected landing site can be chosen. I also assume the Gateway plays a crucial role in directing all the pre-placed gear.

It is a far more structured approach. And of course, it points forward to expeditions further out, mainly Mars.

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Old 26th December 2019, 02:31 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
For the past few years, the history of manned spaceflight has been "The best is the enemy of the good." Vehicles have been developed, then discarded when something newer and cooler is proposed, only to be superseded in its turn.

The Orion could have done some of the same things, but the opinion of all the other proposers of competing programs prevailed. Will Artemis be any different?
The major difference now is the available hardware. Much of what needed to mount a lunar mission already exists, it just a matter of money and imagination.
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Old 26th December 2019, 06:10 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Gateway seems like it means each mission doesn't have to be a complete LM-AM-CSM stack. You can send different combos of modules, and remix them at Gateway depending on which direction you're going.
Couldn't you still send those things separately and have them rendezvous in lunar orbit without Gateway?
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Old 26th December 2019, 06:10 PM   #18
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One good thing about their plans is that one mission would involve several rockets. One rocket may send the descent rocket, another may send living quarters, rover and other things they need on the moon and a third the astronauts. This means they can send a much larger payload to the moon, including more people. Then keep them on the moon for much longer. Getting them between the earth and the moon is the expensive part.

Edit: Looks like Roboramma had similar thoughts.
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Old 26th December 2019, 06:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Couldn't you still send those things separately and have them rendezvous in lunar orbit without Gateway?
Yes, and the ISS could have been an orbital shipyard instead of a PR stunt. The space-industrial complex moves in mysterious ways.
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Old 28th December 2019, 04:02 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, and the ISS could have been an orbital shipyard instead of a PR stunt. The space-industrial complex moves in mysterious ways.
Don't forget the desire to provide employment for a lot of ex-Soviet engineers who might have taken jobs in North Korea, Iran, etc.

There was also the issue of depending on an expensive and unreliable launch system in the shape of the STS.
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Old 28th December 2019, 04:19 PM   #21
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My big take away on this is Artemis Gordon was named after a girl.
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Old 29th December 2019, 02:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
My big take away on this is Artemis Gordon was named after a girl.
Well... he did seem to get into drag more than might have been absolutely necessary.
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Old 29th December 2019, 08:48 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
My big take away on this is Artemis Gordon was named after a girl.
Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Well... he did seem to get into drag more than might have been absolutely necessary.
Maybe Artemis Gordon was non-binary.
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Old 12th April 2020, 04:05 AM   #24
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NASA released a new video about the mission.

It looks like they're planning to send women this time. That'll make it a kind of first.

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Old 12th April 2020, 06:56 AM   #25
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The most awesome thing about that video was new lunar hardware arriving on a 1940's airplane!
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Old 12th April 2020, 08:18 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
NASA released a new video about the mission.

It looks like they're planning to send women this time. That'll make it a kind of first.

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More than a small problem with Artemis is how deeply involved Boeing is with the program. It's become clear the issues with Starliner weren't a couple of bugs but systemic failings. Add the 737 MAX and the KC-46 tanker program to the mix and I would not be holding my breath on the SLS flying successfully next year.
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Old 12th April 2020, 06:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't understand your objection. The point is a spaceship suitable for long-term human habitation. It can orbit Earth, Moon, Mars, Venus, the Sun... Etc. with equal facility. Obvious early stages of development will include short-duration testing in LEO, medium-duration testing in translunar and cislunar flights, and long-duration testing in both those regimes.

Sending it to the moon and back means it can contribute to the development of moon-based infrastructure, in addition to developing techniques and knowledge for long-duration missions.

Probably one of the first long-duration test missions will be an extended stay in LEO, where the crew and the craft are easily accessible from Earth if something breaks unexpectedly, or some unforseen crisis occurs.

On top of all that, once you have a spaceship that can orbit the moon, it can also orbit the Earth. It's literally impossible to throw out "orbits the Earth" at that point. Your objection makes no physical sense, unless you're predicting that they're just not going to build a spacecraft capable of leaving LEO, which seems like a really weird prediction.

tl;dr - WTF are you even talking about?
The Gateway doesn't go to the moon and back and will never be in LEO, it sits in NRHO (Near-Rectilinear Halo Orbit) and waits for you to send things to it. It is also incapable of long-duration missions, it can only support a crew for 30 days. It is located in NRHO because SLS can't get Orion to low Lunar orbit, but placing it there instead of in LEO gives SLS something to do. It's not infrastructure, it's a detour and distraction, and attempt to justify the SLS.
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Old 12th April 2020, 07:15 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
The video explains the Gateway a little better than the Wikipedia article. But, still doesn't go into much detail.

It doesn't seem necessary for the missions to the moon, but I suspect it adds more value than it costs. It would start as just a hub and maybe a communications center to which modules can be later attached. If it later evolved into a real space station, it wouldn't cost much more than the ISS to operate and would provide an enhanced platform for supporting operations on the Moon.

The Gateway will be much more useful in orbit around Mars. For one thing, getting people into orbit around Mars will be much easier than getting them to the surface. Humans in orbit around Mars will be able control multiple rovers and other robotic explorers in near real time. In a few weeks, they would probably be able to explore more of Mars than all of the previous landers combined.

As far as the utility of going back to the moon before going to Mars, it seems obvious to me. Developing and testing the systems in an environment where earth is only a few days away (versus months) and communication is only delayed a few seconds (versus minutes) is one benefit.
Reaching Mars orbit takes 6-7 km/s more propulsive delta-v than landing on the surface, because you can't take advantage of the atmosphere for braking. Realistically, this means a minimum-energy trajectory that takes around 6 months each way, and of course you're stuck in orbit for the entire duration of the stay there, above the protection of the atmosphere against radiation or meteorites. Spending a couple years total in a deep space high-radiation environment to temporarily get some low latency control of some surface robots is very much not worth the expense and risk.

If you're going to Mars, go in an architecture capable of direct EDL, which we've already used to put much larger payloads on the surface than anything we've put in orbit (even while handicapping ourselves by avoiding supersonic retropropulsion). This also puts surface ice deposits within reach. Producing propellant from those would vastly reduce the amount of mass you need to send to Mars.

The Gateway's not useful for testing anything for such a mission either. Any such testing could be done by launching the actual Mars spacecraft to high Earth orbit, rather than burning resources on a "gateway".

As for staging supplies and such for lunar exploration, the obvious location to do that is on the lunar surface, not on a station in a high lunar orbit that only has launch windows every couple weeks and which requires a multi-stage lander/ascent system to reach. You could reach or return from a secondary landing site anywhere on the surface in a suborbital hop burning a fraction of the propellant required for a trip all the way back to the so-called Gateway, and you could make that hop at any time if an emergency requires it, rather than waiting for the next Gateway window. The Gateway just spreads available resources more thinly and puts everything stored at the Gateway out of easy reach for people on the surface.


Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Couldn't you still send those things separately and have them rendezvous in lunar orbit without Gateway?
You could, and that is now officially the plan for the 2024 landing, since developing an orbital toll booth didn't fit in the budget or schedule: https://spacenews.com/nasa-takes-gat...-lunar-return/

They're still developing it, it's just no longer treated as being required for lunar missions.
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Old 7th June 2020, 08:58 AM   #29
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Another video:

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Old 7th June 2020, 11:51 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Another video:

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I AGREE
That's a reupload of a video NASA published last December:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The Gateway is no longer part of the plan, the lander (one of these options: https://spacenews.com/nasa-selects-t...system-awards/) is to dock directly with the Orion rather than both separately docking to the Gateway (see the article linked in my previous post).

Note they haven't canceled the Gateway (yet). They're just no longer pretending that it's needed or even helpful in getting to the moon.
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Old 9th June 2020, 01:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by cjameshuff View Post
That's a reupload of a video NASA published last December:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The Gateway is no longer part of the plan, the lander (one of these options: https://spacenews.com/nasa-selects-t...system-awards/) is to dock directly with the Orion rather than both separately docking to the Gateway (see the article linked in my previous post).

Note they haven't canceled the Gateway (yet). They're just no longer pretending that it's needed or even helpful in getting to the moon.
Thanks.
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Old 13th June 2020, 07:33 AM   #32
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So NASA has appointed a replacement for Doug Loverro as chief of Human Spaceflight. Its Kathy Lueders, previously in charge of the Commercial Crew program. Of course this appointment comes a fortnight after Demo-2 launched two astronauts to the ISS. There may also be a political message in the appointment given that Loverro lost his job by bending the rules in trying to get Boeing to come up with a competitive proposal for the HLS and Lueders has helped build the strong working relationship between NASA and SpaceX.

Article on Lueders appointment:

https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/06/1...n-spaceflight/

And one on Lovarro's dismissal:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020...hy-it-matters/
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Old 26th November 2020, 04:44 AM   #33
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NASA begins assembling the rocket for Artemis moon mission

Quote:
(CNN)NASA engineers have begun assembling the massive rocket designed to take the first woman to the moon later this decade as part of the Artemis program.
The first booster segment of the Space Launch System (SLS) was stacked on top of the mobile launcher at NASA's Kennedy Space Center in Florida earlier this week in preparation for its maiden flight, NASA said Tuesday.
Confirms that they do in fact plan to put a woman on the moon in 2024.

Quote:
The rocket is a key part of NASA's Artemis lunar exploration program, which aims to send the first woman and next man to the Moon by 2024. NASA officials also hope the SLS will be used to reach Mars and other "deep space destinations."
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Old 26th November 2020, 11:07 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by jadebox View Post
The video explains the Gateway a little better than the Wikipedia article. But, still doesn't go into much detail.

It doesn't seem necessary for the missions to the moon, but I suspect it adds more value than it costs. It would start as just a hub and maybe a communications center to which modules can be later attached. If it later evolved into a real space station, it wouldn't cost much more than the ISS to operate and would provide an enhanced platform for supporting operations on the Moon.

The Gateway will be much more useful in orbit around Mars. For one thing, getting people into orbit around Mars will be much easier than getting them to the surface. Humans in orbit around Mars will be able control multiple rovers and other robotic explorers in near real time. In a few weeks, they would probably be able to explore more of Mars than all of the previous landers combined.

As far as the utility of going back to the moon before going to Mars, it seems obvious to me. Developing and testing the systems in an environment where earth is only a few days away (versus months) and communication is only delayed a few seconds (versus minutes) is one benefit.
Teleoperation makes sense from some Gateway derivative, but for manned missions on the ground a direct approach is better because you can aerobrake. That's the option SpaceX is thinking of for Starship.
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Old 30th November 2020, 04:29 AM   #35
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I think Starship will beat them to it.
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