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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

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Old 24th May 2019, 08:28 AM   #1361
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
An uncharitable person might think that the power to grant absolution is a from of extortion with menace
It could be, if they wanted to. Then again, when all you have is a drunk old guy in autopilot, not much comes out of it.
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Old 24th May 2019, 02:30 PM   #1362
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
See, if you make it so priests have to report illegal behavior, then that means that people won't confess illegal behavior. And if they don't confess illegal behavior, then they won't get absolution for their sins! And we can't have that!

Now, from a legal standpoint, I have a hard time distinguishing between "doesn't tell anyone about their crimes" and "tells someone about their crimes and that person doesn't tell anyone about it," but hey, if the state isn't going to be informed about it, then let's at least make sure they get that absolution!

Of course, the church has had the ability to control this completely. Priests in the confessional could have made it clear that they would not grant absolution unless the confessor turned themselves in to authorities.

"For your penance, go to the police"

But they wouldn't do that, no way. Say your 5 Hail Marys and you are absolved.

I am curious about todays Catholics. We know that are diminishing in number in the West and I wonder about the intensity of belief, in the remaining flock. Intensity of belief and adherence to the standards of the not too distant past, that is.

Now we have all heard the expression "Once a Catholic, always a Catholic" and the Irish comedian Dara O'Brian makes fun of the theme in this skit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdolFXcNAH4

"A Catholic could join the Taliban and he would just be described as a 'bad Catholic' " he claimes.

So now to the subject matter pgwenthold draws my attention to. I wonder how much confessing goes on in Catholic Churches today compared to the past. I wonder at the strength of belief in the Catholic clergy today. Traditionally, if you will, priests have been regarded as God's mouthpiece, granting absolution and such on His behalf. Is this breaking down I wonder and absolution not so sought after today.
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Old 26th May 2019, 09:07 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Of course, the church has had the ability to control this completely. Priests in the confessional could have made it clear that they would not grant absolution unless the confessor turned themselves in to authorities.
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, some priests have said that they will do exactly that.

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
But they wouldn't do that, no way. Say your 5 Hail Marys and you are absolved.
That's how it's frequently characterised by non-Catholics, but the sacrament of penance requires a genuine act of contrition. A priest is not supposed to absolve someone unless they feel actual guilt about what they'd done.
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Old 26th May 2019, 11:05 PM   #1364
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As to the OP title, one can but hope!!
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Old 27th May 2019, 05:44 AM   #1365
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
See, if you make it so priests have to report illegal behavior, then that means that people won't confess illegal behavior. And if they don't confess illegal behavior, then they won't get absolution for their sins! And we can't have that!

Now, from a legal standpoint, I have a hard time distinguishing between "doesn't tell anyone about their crimes" and "tells someone about their crimes and that person doesn't tell anyone about it," but hey, if the state isn't going to be informed about it, then let's at least make sure they get that absolution!

Of course, the church has had the ability to control this completely. Priests in the confessional could have made it clear that they would not grant absolution unless the confessor turned themselves in to authorities.

"For your penance, go to the police"

But they wouldn't do that, no way. Say your 5 Hail Marys and you are absolved.
That's what they give school boys for fighting with their sisters and jerking off (though not at the same time, if you confessed that you jerked off while fighting with your sister, the "bill" would likely be much higher). For the big stuff, you're not getting off with a few Hail Marys.
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Old 27th May 2019, 07:21 AM   #1366
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, some priests have said that they will do exactly that.

That's how it's frequently characterised by non-Catholics, but the sacrament of penance requires a genuine act of contrition. A priest is not supposed to absolve someone unless they feel actual guilt about what they'd done.
Exactly. A confessor could require such contrition to include confessing to the authorities.
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Old 27th May 2019, 09:12 AM   #1367
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"Tell No One" (2019 documentary) directed by Tomasz Sekielski

A powerful, gripping documentary about child sex abuse in Poland's Roman Catholic Church, was uploaded to YouTube on 11 May 2019. Politico.eu wrote that the film shows "how abusive priests destroyed the lives of their victims and faced no consequences."1

Clergy have faced little-to-no consequences for criminal behavior.

"The influence of the Catholic Church in Poland is immense — almost 40 percent of the population attends Mass weekly. And it is politically connected, particularly on the right: The church enjoys significant financial privileges from the state, while the ruling Law and Justice party benefits from the support of Catholic media outlets and church sermons. The strength of the church is the strength of Law and Justice, and a crisis in the church is a crisis for Law and Justice." 2

Some key facts about "Tell No One":
  • Is a two-hour independent documentary by Tomasz and Marek Sekielski brothers
  • Was fully funded by viewers via the Patronite.pl platform
  • Viral video, approaching 22 million YouTube views less than 2 1/2 weeks after it was posted

Sources:
1. Cienski, Jan. "Poland's church sex abuse scandal becomes political." Politico.eu, 13 May 2019, politico.eu/article/poland-catholic-church-sex-abuse-scandal-politics-tell-no-one-film/. Accessed 27 May 2019.

2. Sierakowski, Slawomir. "Will a Documentary Take Down the Polish Government?" nytimes.com,18 May 2019, nytimes.com/2019/05/18/opinion/poland-church-abuse.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share. Accessed 27 May 2019.
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Old 27th May 2019, 09:17 AM   #1368
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
As I pointed out earlier in the thread, some priests have said that they will do exactly that.

That's how it's frequently characterised by non-Catholics, but the sacrament of penance requires a genuine act of contrition. A priest is not supposed to absolve someone unless they feel actual guilt about what they'd done.
Sorry, that's 8 years of Catholic school experience going to confession talking. Don't tell me what they are "supposed" to do. I know damn well. I also know what they actually do.
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Old 27th May 2019, 01:33 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
That's how it's frequently characterised by non-Catholics, but the sacrament of penance requires a genuine act of contrition. A priest is not supposed to absolve someone unless they feel actual guilt about what they'd done.

You ask a lot from a priest. That he be able to get inside someones head and access the genuineness of the guilt being felt. Even a good shrink might find this challenging.
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Old 27th May 2019, 06:29 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Sorry, that's 8 years of Catholic school experience going to confession talking. Don't tell me what they are "supposed" to do. I know damn well. I also know what they actually do.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You ask a lot from a priest. That he be able to get inside someones head and access the genuineness of the guilt being felt. Even a good shrink might find this challenging.
Come on friends, it's literally in Wikpedia.

Quote:
Essential to the sacrament are acts both by the sinner (examination of conscience, contrition with a determination not to sin again, confession to a priest, and performance of some act to repair the damage caused by sin) and by the priest (determination of the act of reparation to be performed and absolution).[34] among the penitent's acts contrition holds first place. Serious sins (mortal sins) must be confessed within at most a year and always before receiving Holy Communion, while confession of venial sins also is recommended.[35]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penanc...ent_of_Penance
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Old 28th May 2019, 01:02 PM   #1371
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Come on friends, it's literally in Wikpedia.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penanc...ent_of_Penance

Be that as it may. The astuteness of the priest in the ability to assess true contrition is questionable however.
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Old 28th May 2019, 06:34 PM   #1372
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be that as it may. The astuteness of the priest in the ability to assess true contrition is questionable however.
I'm sure that a moderately-talented actor could certainly fool their confessor if they wanted to. But I don't think that's the point. I don't think there are very many people who are actually going into the booth with the express intention of scamming their confessor. Why would they do that? So that they could receive communion without real contrition? If they have so much contempt for the sacrament of penance, why wouldn't they also have contempt for the Eucharist? Why would they bother? It wouldn't make sense.

And as to pgwenthold's experience, I think there's probably a difference between Catholic children in school and Catholic adults in church. With children a priest is far more likely to "go through the motions" as it were in order to get the kid used to the process. After all, this is something that in theory at least they are going to be doing for the rest of their life. I think they're also more likely to be motivated to get the kids through like an assembly line. So yes, I think the standards are going to be somewhat more relaxed in a Catholic school than in a cathedral with adults.
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Old 29th May 2019, 12:38 PM   #1373
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
See, if you make it so priests have to report illegal behavior, then that means that people won't confess illegal behavior. And if they don't confess illegal behavior, then they won't get absolution for their sins! And we can't have that!

Now, from a legal standpoint, I have a hard time distinguishing between "doesn't tell anyone about their crimes" and "tells someone about their crimes and that person doesn't tell anyone about it," but hey, if the state isn't going to be informed about it, then let's at least make sure they get that absolution!

Of course, the church has had the ability to control this completely. Priests in the confessional could have made it clear that they would not grant absolution unless the confessor turned themselves in to authorities.

"For your penance, go to the police"

But they wouldn't do that, no way. Say your 5 Hail Marys and you are absolved.
If they had to turn in every child rapist they would really be hurting for priests more than they are now.
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Old 30th May 2019, 02:02 PM   #1374
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It seems the leopard is having trouble changing it's spots.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...fence/11165522

Quote:
Here were lawyers for the very same Catholic Church launching a defence which rejected some of the royal commission's key findings in relation to one of its most notorious paedophile priests.
The many good Catholics who espouse Christian values of decency and kindness and social justice might question the expenditure of the proceeds of their collective collection plates to mount that defence.
Not really surprising to us though is it? To wrap it up at the end of the article:

Quote:
And that's why, yet again, this is disappointing from the Catholic Church.
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Old 31st May 2019, 10:15 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
It seems the leopard is having trouble changing it's spots.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...fence/11165522



Not really surprising to us though is it? To wrap it up at the end of the article:
No, it isn't
surprising at all. Every time, the RCC doubles down and double speaks. They seem blissfully unaware that everyone sees this and they are losing members in droves. They are well on the way to becoming the church of the third world because that is the only place where they can still get away with this BS.
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Old 31st May 2019, 03:04 PM   #1376
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No, it isn't
surprising at all. Every time, the RCC doubles down and double speaks. They seem blissfully unaware that everyone sees this and they are losing members in droves. They are well on the way to becoming the church of the third world because that is the only place where they can still get away with this BS.

It won't be long until we have a black Pope methinks. The Vatican City may be moved brick by brick, to some place in central Africa.
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Old 2nd June 2019, 05:26 PM   #1377
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I think you'll find this meme to be a lot sticker than you expect. We won't see the fall of the Catholic Church in our lifetimes.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 12:11 AM   #1378
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think you'll find this meme to be a lot sticker than you expect. We won't see the fall of the Catholic Church in our lifetimes.
The difference between the world towers and the Catholic Church is that the later has a lot longer distance to fall, hence it would take a lot longer for them to finish collapsing. The Catholic Church has been in freefall since Martin Luther and King Henry 8. Before that time they were the dominant religion in Europe and most people took religion very seriously.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 09:17 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No, it isn't
surprising at all. Every time, the RCC doubles down and double speaks. They seem blissfully unaware that everyone sees this and they are losing members in droves. They are well on the way to becoming the church of the third world because that is the only place where they can still get away with this BS.
Better losing members than $$$$$$$$. Keep your eyes on what really matters.
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Old 3rd June 2019, 02:39 PM   #1380
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Meanwhile the Pell saga lumbers on:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...ainer/11159682


Quote:
Disgraced Catholic Cardinal George Pell's bid to overturn his child sex abuse convictions will be heard in Victoria's highest court tomorrow when his appeal hearing gets underway.

I for one was surprised that Pell was found guilty given that presumably it was the victim's word against his. The other victim having died without making an accusation. Mind you I think Pell's guilt is beyond doubt, when you consider all the other accusations made against him, (boys being groped in swimming pool and being sprung by another, exposing himself to boys in the dressing room and such). In addition to this his track record of telling obvious lies when giving evidence to the Royal Commission.

I just wonder if the members of the jury that convicted Pell were swayed by this other stuff, as indeed they should be if they were reasonable people, and kept up with the news.
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Old 7th June 2019, 03:05 PM   #1381
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Pell is now facing civil action:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...laims/11191092

Quote:
A man abused by notorious paedophile Christian Brother Edward "Ted" Dowlan is suing George Pell, alleging the disgraced Cardinal did nothing to protect him.

I wonder why a criminal charge is not happening. There was one against that other bishop of Ballarat who was latter acquitted.
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:08 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Pell is now facing civil action:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...laims/11191092




I wonder why a criminal charge is not happening. There was one against that other bishop of Ballarat who was latter acquitted.

Considering what you said above about the first criminal case, maybe the prosecutors didn't want to tempt fate.
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Old 8th June 2019, 03:30 PM   #1383
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As we await the verdict of the members of the bench regarding Pell's conviction, there is more stirring in the Catholic ranks, this time from women wanting a leg up into the pulpit.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...nvict/11173526

A so called committed Catholic Kate Englebrecht, has ambitions toward priesthood and a grim warning for her church regarding its fate, if change does not come. She comments:

"Frankly if change doesn't come, and major change doesn't come, then the church really is a goner. It's irrelevant."
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Old 9th June 2019, 01:08 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As we await the verdict of the members of the bench regarding Pell's conviction, there is more stirring in the Catholic ranks, this time from women wanting a leg up into the pulpit.
They'd never allow that, you might sneak a peak up their habit
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Old 10th June 2019, 03:49 PM   #1385
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Just keeping y'all up to date on developments in that highly "switched on" community of The Vatican.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-...ntity/11197634

Quote:
Vatican rejects 'transgender' term in official guidance on gender identity
Quote:
The text, Male and Female He Created Them, was intended to help Catholic teachers, parents, students and clergy address what the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education called an "educational crisis" in the field of sex education.
Got that? They're only trying to help.

Francis is in step with all this it seems.

Quote:
Pope Francis has repeatedly argued the position that people cannot choose their genders.
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Old 10th June 2019, 04:31 PM   #1386
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The church fails once again to be progressive.
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Old 10th June 2019, 06:35 PM   #1387
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Actually, since you quote Wikipedia, even there you'll find that not only it's possible to grant absolution without requesting any kind of expressing remorse for those sins, but even without actually confessing them.

Essentially the rule boils down to: if you don't have the time to do a proper job, just absolve them anyway. You'd think maybe that's slightly exaggerated, but nope, an explicit allowance is made for absolving sins when there's no time to do the whole confession and penance thing.

E.g., you can dispense a mass absolution at a papal or bishop visit, where it's unfeasible to actually have him listen to ten thousand people drone about how they had impure thoughts about their sister in law. Although why not let the local priest deal with it in due time, that's another question. But anyway, there you go: if the local priest won't absolve you unless you turn yourself in, just show up at a papal visit or two. You could be the Antichrist himself, you'll still get it.

E.g., you are explicitly allowed to dispense absolution without any confession or anything if the guy's life is in immediate danger. So if for example Ted Bundy had crashed his car into a catholic church, and was wounded, you can just absolve him without even knowing what he did.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:28 AM   #1388
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Hmm apparently rules about abortion are different when it is rapist priests knocking up nuns. Odd that.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ab...rced-abortions
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Old 13th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hmm apparently rules about abortion are different when it is rapist priests knocking up nuns. Odd that.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/ab...rced-abortions

The RCC does show signs of flexibility in times of need to cover up other stuff don't they.

From the linked article:

Quote:
Another scandal is engulfing the Catholic Church. At a time when the Vatican has taken its most concrete steps to address a long ordeal with sex abuse and coverups, a growing chorus of nuns is speaking out about the suffering they have endured at the hands of the priesthood, including rape, forced abortion, emotional abuse and labor exploitation. Special correspondent Christopher Livesay reports.
Haven't heard much in the way of "concrete steps". Perhaps this is a misquote and should read - "Church is unable to make any steps, because of feet being encased in concrete."
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Old 14th June 2019, 05:28 PM   #1390
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I'm not sure why this is such a surprise. When I was spending a lot of time in Uganda, the local "alternative press" made a running joke out of how no woman, nun or not should be alone with a priest/minister of any kind. Pretty much people assumed that if you were a priest or a teacher you took the job for the sex.
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Old 14th June 2019, 06:42 PM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The RCC does show signs of flexibility in times of need to cover up other stuff don't they.

From the linked article:



Haven't heard much in the way of "concrete steps". Perhaps this is a misquote and should read - "Church is unable to make any steps, because of feet being encased in concrete."
I have some concrete steps down to the old garage. Probably more useful than the RC ones.
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Old 14th June 2019, 10:21 PM   #1392
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The RCC does show signs of flexibility in times of need to cover up other stuff don't they.

From the linked article:



Haven't heard much in the way of "concrete steps". Perhaps this is a misquote and should read - "Church is unable to make any steps, because of feet being encased in concrete."
Baloney. The RCC is taking very concrete steps to insulate itself from it's victims now seeking redress.
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Old 15th June 2019, 01:05 PM   #1393
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Baloney. The RCC is taking very concrete steps to insulate itself from it's victims now seeking redress.

True. My mistake.
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Old 16th June 2019, 06:31 AM   #1394
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https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/05/us/we...-church-funds/

Hey, great news. An investigation found a Catholic bishop only sexually harassed people over 18. Whew! Dodged a bullet on that one.
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Old 16th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #1395
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Spending the tithes on booze is not good look however.
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Old 18th June 2019, 03:31 AM   #1396
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Spending the tithes on booze is not good look however.
They've got to take the wins where they can find them.
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Old 13th July 2019, 04:12 PM   #1397
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Quote:
How Catholic clergy ruled alongside the 'gay mafia', despots, and rent boys in Latin America
A story on this and other issues about the RCC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...1214044


Some dissension in the Holy See it would seem:

Quote:
In 2018, conservative Italian Archbishop Maria Vigaṇ called for Pope Francis's resignation in a letter that alleged that the pontiff was directly responsible for the cover up of abuse allegations related to American Cardinal Theodore McCarrick.

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is mentioned again, and the staggering figure of 7% of all Australian priests being accused of child sexual abuse quoted. Given that a lot of abuse would not have resulted in accusations being made, one has to wonder what the actual % of offenders were.

We still await the verdict of the appeal against Pell.
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Old 13th July 2019, 05:38 PM   #1398
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A story on this and other issues about the RCC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...erica/11214044

Some dissension in the Holy See it would seem:




The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is mentioned again, and the staggering figure of 7% of all Australian priests being accused of child sexual abuse quoted. Given that a lot of abuse would not have resulted in accusations being made, one has to wonder what the actual % of offenders were.

We still await the verdict of the appeal against Pell.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...erica/11214044

Your link does not work. A minor error in the url. Fixed.

The Catholic can be described as an organisation that exists partly to abuse children.
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Old 13th July 2019, 09:56 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A story on this and other issues about the RCC:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-...1214044


Some dissension in the Holy See it would seem:




The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse is mentioned again, and the staggering figure of 7% of all Australian priests being accused of child sexual abuse quoted. Given that a lot of abuse would not have resulted in accusations being made, one has to wonder what the actual % of offenders were.

We still await the verdict of the appeal against Pell.
That's a problem. We know they knee jerk into a cover up. What is yet to be revealed?
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Old 14th July 2019, 06:52 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The Catholic can be described as an organisation that exists partly to abuse children.
"Partly" = 7% as far as we know. That's still very much a minority.
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