ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags atheism

Reply
Old 1st July 2018, 11:28 PM   #81
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I think I suggested no such thing. What I have said is that we need to focus on why we believe this atheism is following a bad practice. In other words, why this practice is bad, regardless of whether an atheist or a believer follows it.



In Spain the crime of blasphemy is included in the legal code. Courts generally dismiss cases. But the crime exists and is a menace against freedom of expression. Actor Willy Toledo made a public statement in which he said, "I ***** on God and I still have plenty of ***** to ***** on the dogma of the Virgin Mary's virginity". He then stated that he did not recognize the right of a court to bring charges against him for these words and that he declared himself insubordinate. When the court called him to testify, he didn't come. Toledo, unlike other people who were accused of the same crime, who simply stated that they did not want to offend anyone, wanted to draw attention to the illegitimacy of such a crime and questioned the law itself, which the other defendants had not done in accepting the trial and trusting in their innocence.

Maybe he's right.

NOTE: "*****" is referred to the daily task of ejecting the organic waste from the body. I omit the word to avoid the censure of this forum, but in Spain is an habitual exclamation, very popular in some regions. Toledo's attack transcedend the circumstancial situation to aim to the state of right.

Edited by jsfisher:  Edited to (1) fully mask the naughty words as required by the Membership Agreement, and (2) fixed the damaged quote-tags.
I thought I have "masked" "naughty" words. Not enough apparently.

Willy Toledo is erased in an sceptical forum! ¡Ay caramba!
This is sobering.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2018, 12:03 AM   #82
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,921
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I thought I have "masked" "naughty" words. Not enough apparently.

Willy Toledo is erased in an sceptical forum! ¡Ay caramba!
This is sobering.
Just type the words you wish to use out in full. The "naughty" ones will be automatically masked for you. It couldn't possibly be any easier.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 3rd July 2018, 12:23 PM   #83
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,627
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
In Spain the crime of blasphemy is included in the legal code.

We had a similar law in Denmark until last year. Not used very often.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2019, 05:25 AM   #84
IanS
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,075
Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
I've no problem with those who have no theism beliefs (my understanding of the term a-theist), but (subjectively) most that loudly proclaim their atheism seem to be more anti-theist, or con(against)-theists/theism, rather than truly, and merely, without theistic beliefs. Agnosticism, is merely being uncertain and unsure whether or not there is an objectively compelling case for Theism or the Supernatural. The purported power of Faith, is the acceptance of that unseen, perhaps unseeable, despite the lack of compelling support. It doesn't take faith to believe in that which we can see, measure, and quantify.


I don't know how many people say they are atheists without being critical of religions in some way or other. I expect it's far more common that most atheists do find reasons to criticise various aspects of all religions.

Do you think Christianity (just for example) is above criticism? Even if the criticism is only one of education to say that (for example) it's a serious problem when Christians today (and Muslims) raise their children, and preach to adults, saying that evolution is untrue and that there is better evidence for divine creation. That is surely a serious and quite dangerous thing for those theists to do ... because they are teaching people to reject science and to reject an unarguable mountain of honest objective evidence that explains the origin of Man. That's teaching children/others to reject or doubt science, and that's seriously anti-educational.

There are of course numerous other reasons why anyone ought to criticise religious beliefs about such things as praying for sick children/relatives whilst refusing to call the medical services … or encouraging people to believe in the need for exorcisms (apparently supported by supposedly “moderate” priests and vicars all around the world) … or frightening young children with ideas about being sent to Hell if they misbehave (which apparently, in the USA, is something that many lapsed Christians say was terrifying to them in their early years (say, 6 to 12 years old).

And then we have the issues around tax concessions and various favourable grants being given to churches and religious schools etc. Which of course all goes to maintaining and expanding the religion.

So there are numerous reasons why anyone (not just atheists) really should be critical of many things that are allowed to continue under the banner of Religion.

Last edited by IanS; 12th July 2019 at 05:27 AM.
IanS is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2019, 04:41 PM   #85
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,292
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
I don't know how many people say they are atheists without being critical of religions in some way or other. I expect it's far more common that most atheists do find reasons to criticise various aspects of all religions.

Do you think Christianity (just for example) is above criticism? Even if the criticism is only one of education to say that (for example) it's a serious problem when Christians today (and Muslims) raise their children, and preach to adults, saying that evolution is untrue and that there is better evidence for divine creation. That is surely a serious and quite dangerous thing for those theists to do ... because they are teaching people to reject science and to reject an unarguable mountain of honest objective evidence that explains the origin of Man. That's teaching children/others to reject or doubt science, and that's seriously anti-educational.

There are of course numerous other reasons why anyone ought to criticise religious beliefs about such things as praying for sick children/relatives whilst refusing to call the medical services … or encouraging people to believe in the need for exorcisms (apparently supported by supposedly “moderate” priests and vicars all around the world) … or frightening young children with ideas about being sent to Hell if they misbehave (which apparently, in the USA, is something that many lapsed Christians say was terrifying to them in their early years (say, 6 to 12 years old).

And then we have the issues around tax concessions and various favourable grants being given to churches and religious schools etc. Which of course all goes to maintaining and expanding the religion.

So there are numerous reasons why anyone (not just atheists) really should be critical of many things that are allowed to continue under the banner of Religion.

+ 1

A source of wonder to me, are those who show no concern about other peoples religion, impacting their own lives. The impact may be subtle in some cases and although in others quite significant, the ignorance of those effected, stops them from feeling the outrage, they should feel.

Regrettably it is understandable I suppose, because so many just look at how they are directly effected. The plight of women wanting abortions, LGBT folk wanting equal rights, and so on, are just minority groups, and need not concern the bulk of us.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2019, 05:14 PM   #86
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think this is too strong of a criterion for believing in something. Many of the things we all believe have no proof. As a matter of fact hardly anything can be proven outside of logic and mathematics! Perhaps it would be better to say that you try not to believe in anything for which there is no evidence, or for which there is no good reason, or something similar. But there are a couple of wiggle words there, too.

I'd agree that there is a new breed of outspoken sort of atheist-activist that can get annoying. They often seem overeager to let others know they identify strongly as atheists, and they're always wanting to debate about the topic. But upon further thought, maybe they're not such a new breed since that sounds like me about ten years ago. :0
No offense but your post has little merit I can prove the book I am reading exists, that my parents exists, that the car I am driving exists, that there is DNA in our cells, that electricity exists and can be controlled. I can prove gravity over and over and over again. I can point my telescope at the night sky and see that the Big Dipper exists. Please tell me the many things we all believe in that have no proof. I doubt you will come up with any but sky daddies.

I find it interesting that people are annoyed at atheists.

You know what I am annoyed with?

People that want to share the "good news" of their fairy tale god.
Preachers on tv and mormons knocking on my front door.
I'm sick of reading about people killing others for their god.
Or them saying we should teach their creation story in our science class.
Or using their faith as an excuse to tell others how to live.
Or demanding laws that allow them to discriminate
Parents disowning their children for not believing.
Tax breaks for churches.

I'm an outspoken atheist because beliefs have consequences and so many of them are horrible. .
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 19th July 2019 at 06:00 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2019, 06:16 PM   #87
ArchSas
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by IanS View Post
That is surely a serious and quite dangerous thing for those theists to do ... because they are teaching people to reject science and to reject an unarguable mountain of honest objective evidence that explains the origin of Man. That's teaching children/others to reject or doubt science, and that's seriously anti-educational.
As a person who went to K-12 in a school district that mandated intelligent design be discussed and that an "official" position couldn't be taken on whether or not it was more "right" than evolution, this is huge to me. Science is science, it shouldn't matter what parents want to tell their kids, at least not outside of church. It still bothers me that I was taught intelligent design as a valid alternative in an honors biology class in high school; most of my classmates are still probably die-hard believers that evolution is just an opinion. And why shouldn't they, if that's how school is presenting it? That kind of thing really shouldn't be happening in any modern society. It's dangerous. Critical thinking skills should be stressed, and parental beliefs shouldn't dictate how facts are taught. When it gets to a point where science is an opinion and a high school principle has to say that he can't teach the holocaust as a historical fact, the system is seriously broken.

What really worries me is that I didn't even grow up in an especially religious area. This was in an suburban part of the stereotypically liberal Puget Sound region. Granted, there were a fair share of Mormons and evangelicals around, but things weren't nearly as religious as I've experience in other regions in the US; other kids mut have it way worse than I did.

Originally Posted by IanS View Post
or frightening young children with ideas about being sent to Hell if they misbehave (which apparently, in the USA, is something that many lapsed Christians say was terrifying to them in their early years (say, 6 to 12 years old).
It's not just lapsed Christians. I grew up in a household that was pretty strictly nonreligious, but because I lived in a poor neighborhood, a lot of community activities were structured around things organized by local churches. I have vivid memories of one of these gatherings (I think it was supposed to be some kind of neighborhood kids activities) that ended up being the first time I had ever heard about hell. I was 5 or 6, and it absolutely terrified me, especially because a friend of mine had just moved while I was still borrowing one of his toys. The way hell was presented to me, I was convinced that even though I had accidentally "stolen" the toy, I was now condemned to hell no matter what. Luckily my parents were able to help by telling me hell wasn't real, but it still took me a while to get over. That's the kind of thing I think of sometimes when I get really cynical about the idea of churches providing community services; yeah, they can do a lot of good, but at what cost? I'm sure going to some activity organized by the local parks and rec would have been much less traumatizing than something that was trying to scare kids about eternal damnation.

Last edited by ArchSas; 19th July 2019 at 06:23 PM.
ArchSas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th July 2019, 11:39 PM   #88
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No offense but your post has little merit I can prove the book I am reading exists, that my parents exists, that the car I am driving exists, that there is DNA in our cells, that electricity exists and can be controlled. I can prove gravity over and over and over again. I can point my telescope at the night sky and see that the Big Dipper exists. Please tell me the many things we all believe in that have no proof. I doubt you will come up with any but sky daddies.

I find it interesting that people are annoyed at atheists.

You know what I am annoyed with?

People that want to share the "good news" of their fairy tale god.
Preachers on tv and mormons knocking on my front door.
I'm sick of reading about people killing others for their god.
Or them saying we should teach their creation story in our science class.
Or using their faith as an excuse to tell others how to live.
Or demanding laws that allow them to discriminate
Parents disowning their children for not believing.
Tax breaks for churches.

I'm an outspoken atheist because beliefs have consequences and so many of them are horrible. .
I don't care about the beliefs of Christians. Let them believe what they want. I worry a lot when they try to impose their beliefs as binding rules. And that's hard for them not to do. The churches specially. That's the problem.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2019, 04:31 AM   #89
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,180
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Just type the words you wish to use out in full. The "naughty" ones will be automatically masked for you. It couldn't possibly be any easier.
What a ******* stupid **** I am for not realising that earlier.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2019, 04:40 AM   #90
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,733
I've said it before, I'll say it again: complaints about "modern atheists", "new atheists", or whatever, just boil down to "wouldn't it be nice if atheists shut the hell up, never gave any reasons, so we could all pretend they're non existent or just a small group of weirdoes."

Actually, let me be even more explicit for a change: like most such complaints about some group saying too much, it boils down to entitlement. It used to be that some groups could do all the talking, say any offensive idiocy, and never had to listen to a counter-argument. Be it religion, or race, or xenophobia, or misoginy, or whatever. Only the ones on the privileged side got to do all the talking. And now they want that privilege back.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2019, 08:27 AM   #91
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 26,146
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I've said it before, I'll say it again: complaints about "modern atheists", "new atheists", or whatever, just boil down to "wouldn't it be nice if atheists shut the hell up, never gave any reasons, so we could all pretend they're non existent or just a small group of weirdoes."
It's even worse then that.

It's that plus that insidious form of faux-acceptance where you ever so graciously allow the other group the courtesy, nay the privilege of being permitted to exist... as long as they do it the "right" way.

We're not expected to not exist, we're expected to grovel.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2019, 10:09 AM   #92
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I've said it before, I'll say it again: complaints about "modern atheists", "new atheists", or whatever, just boil down to "wouldn't it be nice if atheists shut the hell up, never gave any reasons, so we could all pretend they're non existent or just a small group of weirdoes."

Actually, let me be even more explicit for a change: like most such complaints about some group saying too much, it boils down to entitlement. It used to be that some groups could do all the talking, say any offensive idiocy, and never had to listen to a counter-argument. Be it religion, or race, or xenophobia, or misoginy, or whatever. Only the ones on the privileged side got to do all the talking. And now they want that privilege back.


Yep. That's it in a nutshell. The world has worked fine...for us. It's the same complaint the rich have used against the poor. See capitalism works,....for us. You're complaining about your wages and not being able to pay your rent? . Boo hoo. Well, my new jet needs a new engine. We like the rules just as they have been.

Somehow religion has always enjoyed an unspoken special privilege in society and that is being beyond criticism. Whatever religion one might have, don't dare criticize it. I say "screw that". You have every right to believe in whatever imaginary skydaddy you like. I have no desire to take away that right. And I also have every right to criticize it.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th July 2019, 10:13 AM   #93
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I don't care about the beliefs of Christians. Let them believe what they want. I worry a lot when they try to impose their beliefs as binding rules. And that's hard for them not to do. The churches specially. That's the problem.

Beliefs have consequences. There simply is no way around it.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 12:07 AM   #94
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Beliefs have consequences. There simply is no way around it .
I said it was very difficult although not impossible. There are Christians that live their beliefs without trying to impose it to others. I know some so. They are usually part of bases communities. Scarcely among priests and almost never in the hierarchy.

The problem is why religion fosters violent intolerance.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 04:56 AM   #95
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,180
I have been noticing a breed of New New Atheists on Twitter who enthuse about the importance of religion to the strength and resilience of society, they tend to have heros like Jordan Petersen and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

To which I say "come back Richard Dawkins, all is forgiven".
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 05:01 AM   #96
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,733
It's not really something new, though. It's the faith in faith argument all over again.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 07:56 AM   #97
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I have been noticing a breed of New New Atheists on Twitter who enthuse about the importance of religion to the strength and resilience of society, they tend to have heros like Jordan Petersen and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

To which I say "come back Richard Dawkins, all is forgiven".
Really? I think Jordan Petersen is a tool. Most atheists I know mock that guy.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 08:06 AM   #98
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
I said it was very difficult although not impossible. There are Christians that live their beliefs without trying to impose it to others. I know some so. They are usually part of bases communities. Scarcely among priests and almost never in the hierarchy.

The problem is why religion fosters violent intolerance.
I think it is impossible. There are certainly Christians that are less offensive than others. But beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. They inform our actions and affect not only those people around us but people we do not even know.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st July 2019, 11:33 PM   #99
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think it is impossible. There are certainly Christians that are less offensive than others. But beliefs do not exist in a vacuum. They inform our actions and affect not only those people around us but people we do not even know.
Of course, but I think this influence is not what we can blame Christians for. Each acts on the other just because they exist in the world. What is reprehensible is trying to impose a particular belief on others. This is the rule of tolerance. Or to become a nuisance in trying to convince everyone. This is the rule of courtesy.

But I don't think we can blame anyone for wearing a necklace with a cross or a headscarf. Whether I like it or not this is something else.

Last edited by David Mo; 21st July 2019 at 11:35 PM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2019, 10:08 AM   #100
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Of course, but I think this influence is not what we can blame Christians for. Each acts on the other just because they exist in the world. What is reprehensible is trying to impose a particular belief on others. This is the rule of tolerance. Or to become a nuisance in trying to convince everyone. This is the rule of courtesy.

But I don't think we can blame anyone for wearing a necklace with a cross or a headscarf. Whether I like it or not this is something else.
In one sense I cannot blame anyone for their beliefs as belief is not a choice. I can however blame individuals for engaging in special pleading and wilfull cognitive dissonance and abandoning sound epistemological practices.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd July 2019, 08:33 PM   #101
8enotto
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 1,632
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
+ 1

A source of wonder to me, are those who show no concern about other peoples religion, impacting their own lives. The impact may be subtle in some cases and although in others quite significant, the ignorance of those effected, stops them from feeling the outrage, they should feel.

Regrettably it is understandable I suppose, because so many just look at how they are directly effected. The plight of women wanting abortions, LGBT folk wanting equal rights, and so on, are just minority groups, and need not concern the bulk of us.
This is me, until their beliefs get in my way. Then most times I politely remove the ' offending ' material the first time. Explain its not my interests. After that I may not be so polite again.

But I cannot equate dodging woo to rights being stripped away or special rights being demanded. Seperation of church and state is supposed to keep dogma out of the law books.

I live in a community of mostly catholic with a thousand tiny sects of ultra religious types and it is not my issue how they worship or what. If that gets in the way of doing business to hell with them, I will look elsewhere. It has happened too. But it is noted that most JW types with businesses take anyone's money in exchange for goods. They may say they are just hanging time here for what comes, but they ain't going to drive ****** cars or eat only beans and rice meanwhile.

No sir, most live pretty well.
8enotto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 12:35 AM   #102
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,733
I would add that even the same groups who are all enlightened in whatever western country you live in, can quite easily revert to being dicks in times and places where it looks like they can. A trivial example are the Catholics, who may be all chill and all live-and-let-live in the USA or western Europe, but will cheerfully tie you up and put you through an exorcism or several even in a modern country like Mexico for as little as not being liked by an ultra-religious community you happen to live in. E.g., for being a woman who got an abortion, or even for being the wrong kind of Xian. Sure, they can't set you on fire any more, but they're more than happy to bully you around otherwise when they can get away with it. And it gets worse in, say, Africa.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 23rd July 2019 at 12:36 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 09:20 AM   #103
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
+ 1

A source of wonder to me, are those who show no concern about other peoples religion, impacting their own lives. The impact may be subtle in some cases and although in others quite significant, the ignorance of those effected, stops them from feeling the outrage, they should feel.

Regrettably it is understandable I suppose, because so many just look at how they are directly effected. The plight of women wanting abortions, LGBT folk wanting equal rights, and so on, are just minority groups, and need not concern the bulk of us.
Not to mention the effect their beliefs have on science and education. I give you stem cell research, evolution vs not very intelligent design. I'd also argue it has had a direct effect on health care, social security and spending on things that benefit the middle class and poor since the powerful use it as a wedge issue to divide and inevitably influence many to vote against their own interests
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 10:19 AM   #104
Garrison
Philosopher
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,181
I have to sat the thing that makes me feel more belligerent as an atheist is going to the local shopping mall and running across yet another group of Jehovah's Witnesses with their little stand full of pamphlets, all to eager to explain why their magic sky fairy is the real one to any luckless passerby. If people want to believe in god that's fine, its when they insist that the rest of us have to take their beliefs seriously and grant them special status that I take issue.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 03:10 PM   #105
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 6,292
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Not to mention the effect their beliefs have on science and education. I give you stem cell research, evolution vs not very intelligent design. I'd also argue it has had a direct effect on health care, social security and spending on things that benefit the middle class and poor since the powerful use it as a wedge issue to divide and inevitably influence many to vote against their own interests

Yes all this too. I think we could come up with a most impressive list if we were to compile one about the detrimental effects of religion.

Perhaps my exposure to some of these, albeit indirectly, has been greater than that of most, so my tolerance of religion minuscule. Others, some on this forum, seem to claim some kudos for being accepting of the religious, and somehow conflating this with tolerance of religious belief.

I had a friend in my early twenties who came out as gay and came onto me. I rejected his advances but we remained friends. Some few years later he threw himself under a train.* Oh sure I know, gays committing suicide is not uncommon, but when it is someone you know ....

I have witnessed a number of other, close at hand, consequences of religious belief. Tragic, is the word that comes to mind.


* Religiously driven, homophobic father.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 06:37 PM   #106
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,921
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I have to sat the thing that makes me feel more belligerent as an atheist is going to the local shopping mall and running across yet another group of Jehovah's Witnesses with their little stand full of pamphlets, all to eager to explain why their magic sky fairy is the real one to any luckless passerby. If people want to believe in god that's fine, its when they insist that the rest of us have to take their beliefs seriously and grant them special status that I take issue.
To me, this is about the most inoffensive method of evangelism that I can think of. They sit there, with their little stand of pamphlets, waiting for people to approach them. They aren't putting it in your face - at worst they might be putting it in your path, but they are easily ignorable.

Quite unlike the charity muggers who approach random strangers on the street with big creepy smiles and cheery greetings. A nightmare for an introvert with social anxiety who just wants to be left alone.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 06:48 PM   #107
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes all this too. I think we could come up with a most impressive list if we were to compile one about the detrimental effects of religion.

Perhaps my exposure to some of these, albeit indirectly, has been greater than that of most, so my tolerance of religion minuscule. Others, some on this forum, seem to claim some kudos for being accepting of the religious, and somehow conflating this with tolerance of religious belief.

I had a friend in my early twenties who came out as gay and came onto me. I rejected his advances but we remained friends. Some few years later he threw himself under a train.* Oh sure I know, gays committing suicide is not uncommon, but when it is someone you know ....

I have witnessed a number of other, close at hand, consequences of religious belief. Tragic, is the word that comes to mind.


* Religiously driven, homophobic father.
I have friends that were disowned by their religious families because they were gay or didn't believe. My old boss who I loved like a brother sent his adopted son to gay conversion therapy. I watched a man treat his son like **** because of his religion.

We had a falling out because of it.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 11:21 PM   #108
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,930
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? I think Jordan Petersen is a tool. Most atheists I know mock that guy.
His conversations with Sam Harris really showed the bankruptcy of his ideas regarding religion.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 01:03 AM   #109
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,733
I haven't watched those. I looked at some of his psychology lectures, up to the point where he was making up history to make the case that Hitler only turned national socialist by picking the clues of what the audience wanted to hear. Which contradicts the actual history, such as what he wrote about Jews BEFORE even WW1 was over. He was basically just making whatever stuff up he needs to make his case. I guess, in the fine tradition started by Freud. And frankly, if his psychology is based on just fiction -- including basically whole concepts being illustrated only by Disney cartoons -- then I'm not very interested.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 02:26 AM   #110
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 13,930
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I haven't watched those. I looked at some of his psychology lectures, up to the point where he was making up history to make the case that Hitler only turned national socialist by picking the clues of what the audience wanted to hear. Which contradicts the actual history, such as what he wrote about Jews BEFORE even WW1 was over. He was basically just making whatever stuff up he needs to make his case. I guess, in the fine tradition started by Freud. And frankly, if his psychology is based on just fiction -- including basically whole concepts being illustrated only by Disney cartoons -- then I'm not very interested.
I haven't watched those, but yeah that sounds pretty ridiculous.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 02:42 AM   #111
David Mo
Philosopher
 
David Mo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere on the Greenwich meridian
Posts: 5,036
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Really? I think Jordan Petersen is a tool. Most atheists I know mock that guy.
It is difficult to argue about a guy that does not know or does not want to define the fundamental concepts of his doctrine. From what I have seen on the Internet it seems to me to be a kind of Elmer Gantry of the New Neoliberal Spirituality. I would have to read more about it, but it doesn't seduce me in the least. Sounds to me like a very old sermon was said as if it was the last word of the post-post-whatever.

Maybe it's so deep that I haven't get it. I can't go down 4m without air tanks.

NOTE: Elmer Gantry is the main character of a great film by Richard Brooks with the same name, based on a not so great novel by Sinclair Lewis. I recommend both to everybody.

Last edited by David Mo; 24th July 2019 at 02:48 AM.
David Mo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 11:11 AM   #112
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
It is difficult to argue about a guy that does not know or does not want to define the fundamental concepts of his doctrine. From what I have seen on the Internet it seems to me to be a kind of Elmer Gantry of the New Neoliberal Spirituality. I would have to read more about it, but it doesn't seduce me in the least. Sounds to me like a very old sermon was said as if it was the last word of the post-post-whatever.

Maybe it's so deep that I haven't get it. I can't go down 4m without air tanks.

NOTE: Elmer Gantry is the main character of a great film by Richard Brooks with the same name, based on a not so great novel by Sinclair Lewis. I recommend both to everybody.
I wouldn't call him "neo-liberal". Just another brand of nonsense peddler. The old, if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with bull **** kind of guy. And yes Elmer Gantry is a great movie. Probably Burt Lancaster's best role.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 24th July 2019 at 11:31 AM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 11:16 AM   #113
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,797
Yeah, teenagers often do things for irrational reasons. So do adults.

I don't think you can fix that.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 03:43 PM   #114
ArchSas
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 274
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I wouldn't call him "neo-liberal". Just another brand of nonsense peddler. The old, if you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with bull **** kind of guy. And yes Elmer Gantry is a great movie. Probably Burt Lancaster's best role.
I've seen him referred to as "the Deepak Chopra of incels" a few times, and find it fairly accurate.
ArchSas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 04:13 PM   #115
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
I've seen him referred to as "the Deepak Chopra of incels" a few times, and find it fairly accurate.
Don't get me started on that charlatan His mis-use of quantum physics terms is beyond absurd. He doesn't understand it at all. I grant you that the great Richard Feynman said that if you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics.

But Chopra weaves his ignorance of the subject innto the nonsensical swill that he peddles. I can't remember if it was Sam Harris, or Dawkins or Brian Cox where he had a cosmic meltdown over their reference of his pablum as woo.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 24th July 2019 at 04:16 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 09:20 PM   #116
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I watched a man treat his son like **** because of his religion.

We had a falling out because of it.
Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 08:14 AM   #117
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25,592
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.
The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and written God's law says that if a man lay with another man they are to be stoned. So I guess God loves gays.

Keep in mind though that is the same penalty for eating shellfish and gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

As for my boss/friend sending his son to his church's homosexual conversion therapy had nothing to do with his religion.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 10:07 AM   #118
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 16,733
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Are you sure that's the real reason?

Let us not forget - God doesn't hate gays (how can He when He doesn't exist?) - People do. They don't do stuff because of their religion, their religion has stuff in it because because that's what they want in it.

You think people deny Global Warming because the Bible says its not happening? (It doesn't). Which religion says that selfishness, greed, lack of empathy and xenophobia are desirable qualities? Not Christianity, but that doesn't stop them pretending it does.

Homophobia wouldn't go away if there wasn't a passage in the Bible that could be interpreted as God hates gays. People would just find some other way to justify it.
To some extent yes, and to some extent no.

I didn't actually get a degree in anthropology, so I'm not really an authority on the subject, but I would like to draw attention to the concepts of culture and inculturation. The latter being how you learn to fit into and function in a particular culture.

Basically if the culture you grew up in says that only horrible people eat their buttered bread with the butter side up, then you learn to properly eat yours with the butter side down. And to look down upon, possibly even roll your eyes at, any of the losers who eat theirs with the buttered side up.

And things can be really that arbitrary. If you pulled your shorts down at the Olympics nowadays and ran the sprint with your willy flopping around in the wind, it would be a horrible faux pas. Meanwhile in ancient Greece after a certain point in time, the exact opposite would be true. It would be a horrible faux pas if you ran the race any other way than naked.

Basically it's a fancy way of saying that you learn the traditions from the society you grew up in.

And I will say that you are right that homophobia a cultural thing than rather than 'because God said so.'

HOWEVER, the problem is that religion is also a part of culture. And that the influence goes both ways.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 06:15 PM   #119
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,789
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The Bible says homosexuality is an abomination and written God's law says that if a man lay with another man they are to be stoned.
I never said it didn't. But we all know who put that bit in there, and it wasn't God.

Quote:
Keep in mind though that is the same penalty for eating shellfish and gathering firewood on the Sabbath.
So your boss has the same attitude towards eating shellfish and gathering firewood on Saturday Sunday? And wearing clothes with different fabrics, and planting two kinds of seed, and...

No? Thought not.

Quote:
As for my boss/friend sending his son to his church's homosexual conversion therapy had nothing to do with his religion.
You have it backwards. People hate gays, and they 'validate' that hatred by putting/keeping it in their religion. They could easily ignore any parts of the Bible they don't agree with - and they do! The fact that they make a big deal about gays and not the other stuff proves that they want to hate gays. So religion isn't the cause of their moral values, it's the result.
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 09:48 PM   #120
Cheetah
Master Poster
 
Cheetah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South Africa
Posts: 2,690
Culture and religion (and racism and homophobia etc.) are the products of human drives and emotions. Human drives are the drivers that shape them.
You would have to change human nature to get rid of racism and homophobia.

What is also true though is that in a culture that condones one of these behaviors, as opposed to one that condemns it, there will be a larger subset of the population exhibiting such behaviour.
__________________
"... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB
Cheetah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:46 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.