ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 4th June 2019, 02:50 PM   #121
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,383
You don't even need to get that far to see how his argument is retarded. It's begging the question by essentially claiming that something that begins at a given time can't ever get to be infinitely old, so there is nothing infinitely old. But that's just circularly asserting that the universe has a beginning, rather than disprove that it could have always existed. Among other problems.


The even dumber thing though is that if you actually look at the proposed ideas for how God and time work, it opens an even bigger can of THEOLOGICAL worms.

Think for one moment about what Emre has been proposing here. We're talking about a God for whom basically the time axis is reduced to a point. Because we're told that he doesn't do something later or before, he's already done it, is doing it, and will be doing it.

Yet all 3 of the Abrahamic religions have a God who reacts to a sequence of events, e.g., decide to give a flood because version 1.0 was flawed. Or treat the creation of death by Adam and Eve's acts as something irreversible, and punishes them for it. Etc. But that makes no sense, unless he just wants to be a dick with a cool excuse. Because if any moment in time is the same for him, he could just act in the past to fix it before it even becomes a problem.


But even those questions are ultimately superfluous. There's the even bigger issue that all 3 religions make claims about time compression for God, that is clearly not infinite. For the Jews Psalm 90 says that 1000 years are like a day for God, and for Xians that is repeated in 2 Peter 3. And for the last 2000 years apocalypticists have been working based on taking that to be literal. But OK, those are not said by God himself, so, who knows, Peter could be wrong, right?

But for Muslims we do have GOD HIMSELF saying that. TWICE: in 22:47 and 32:5.

Allah LITERALLY says to his Prophet (peace be upon him and all that,) -- via the archangel Gabriel, but it's still Allah's words that the archangel faithfully conveys -- that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. Now that's a time dilation of about 365,000 to 1, which is even worse than the 61,320 to 1 time dilation effect in Interstellar , but it's not infinite.

So essentially our friend Emre is contradicting Allah himself
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 4th June 2019 at 03:05 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #122
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 15,383
Actually, that gives me an idea. Does that mean God lives near a black hole? Seems to me like we could calculate exactly how close to one he'd have to be, innit?

Edit: I mean, we even have the formula. It's the square root of (1 - 2GM/rc2). You just solve that for 1/365,000

Edit 2: that HAS to be closer to the event horizon than the radius of the photon sphere, innit? Because that one is 3GM/c2, and you can probably see what you get if you replace that one in the formula above. I.e., Allah is closer than where you'd need to be a photon to maintain a stable orbit and not fall in. HALELUIA, IT'S A MIRACLE!
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 4th June 2019 at 03:04 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th June 2019, 05:49 PM   #123
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,454
Is Schwarzschild god?
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th June 2019, 11:27 AM   #124
winter salt
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 261
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
You don't even need to get that far to see how his argument is retarded. It's begging the question by essentially claiming that something that begins at a given time can't ever get to be infinitely old, so there is nothing infinitely old. But that's just circularly asserting that the universe has a beginning, rather than disprove that it could have always existed. Among other problems.


The even dumber thing though is that if you actually look at the proposed ideas for how God and time work, it opens an even bigger can of THEOLOGICAL worms.

Think for one moment about what Emre has been proposing here. We're talking about a God for whom basically the time axis is reduced to a point. Because we're told that he doesn't do something later or before, he's already done it, is doing it, and will be doing it.

Yet all 3 of the Abrahamic religions have a God who reacts to a sequence of events, e.g., decide to give a flood because version 1.0 was flawed. Or treat the creation of death by Adam and Eve's acts as something irreversible, and punishes them for it. Etc. But that makes no sense, unless he just wants to be a dick with a cool excuse. Because if any moment in time is the same for him, he could just act in the past to fix it before it even becomes a problem.


But even those questions are ultimately superfluous. There's the even bigger issue that all 3 religions make claims about time compression for God, that is clearly not infinite. For the Jews Psalm 90 says that 1000 years are like a day for God, and for Xians that is repeated in 2 Peter 3. And for the last 2000 years apocalypticists have been working based on taking that to be literal. But OK, those are not said by God himself, so, who knows, Peter could be wrong, right?

But for Muslims we do have GOD HIMSELF saying that. TWICE: in 22:47 and 32:5.

Allah LITERALLY says to his Prophet (peace be upon him and all that,) -- via the archangel Gabriel, but it's still Allah's words that the archangel faithfully conveys -- that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. Now that's a time dilation of about 365,000 to 1, which is even worse than the 61,320 to 1 time dilation effect in Interstellar , but it's not infinite.

So essentially our friend Emre is contradicting Allah himself
I see so much focus on the "time" aspect of the argument.
I'd like to hear your opinion about the "material" aspect of it.
Like where did all the stuff he "created" come from ?
It had to be part of himself since there was nothing else with him right?
So when I look at a plant in a pot I know that there has to be a balance point between the size of the plant and it's dirt. The whole dirt cannot become the plant.
So the second question would become " how much of himself God used up to "create" the universe, and what happened with the remaining material, where is it in it's God-form?"
winter salt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2019, 10:59 AM   #125
Paul2
Philosopher
 
Paul2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,242
Not sure if anyone else has referenced the following (haven't read the whole thread), but Richard Carrier as a unique take on nothing coming from nothing. He says that if there is truly nothing, then the law or principle that nothing comes from nothing does not exist and therefore does not function, so something could come from nothing because there's nothing (heh) ruling that out.
__________________
It's nice to be nice to the nice.

Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell
Paul2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th June 2019, 06:19 PM   #126
steenkh
Philosopher
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 5,577
Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Not sure if anyone else has referenced the following (haven't read the whole thread), but Richard Carrier as a unique take on nothing coming from nothing. He says that if there is truly nothing, then the law or principle that nothing comes from nothing does not exist and therefore does not function, so something could come from nothing because there's nothing (heh) ruling that out.
Another version is that once exceptions are put forward, gods are not the only ones that can use them, so if everything needs a creator, except God, then there is no reason why the universe can't use the same exception and have no creator.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.