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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:43 AM   #81
Dancing David
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
What about Jason Brennans idea of epistocracy. This is one example of inequality.
What about not derailing your own thread?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:45 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
So if we cannot prove that we have equal dignity, how do we now it is true, how de we know that the axiom is correct? It is based on faith, right? On feelings.
It was based upon what?

A statement by the General Assembly of the United Nations?

I have to suggest you write out your thought processes long hand before posting here, you seem to lack consistency and just hop from one thing to another
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:47 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
What is being Human? Why are we different from animals?
Yawn, boring.........

We aren't different from animals, maybe you should ask the United Nations why they didn't include animals.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 09:48 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
Yes, but you assume humans has more rights than animals, that there is something holy about us. That we are not a part of natur.
Who is the you in your statement?
Someone in this thread? Or are you just talking to yourself?
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:35 PM   #85
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I'm just waiting for the "Checkmate, atheists!"
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:36 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'm just waiting for the "Checkmate, atheists!"
CAN YUR PRECIOUS SCIENCE EXPLAIN THAT!
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Old 3rd July 2019, 12:50 PM   #87
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:27 PM   #88
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U.N.: we think it's best if all people had equal rights

OP: You won't apply that to goldfish? Irrational! Therefore, equal rights are just a superstition.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 01:40 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
Yes, but you assume humans has more rights than animals, that there is something holy about us. That we are not a part of natur.
Not really. We are humans, we cater for us. If any other animals speak up and demand equal rights, we might give it consideration.

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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:30 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Is OP really just playing a rather poor game of Super Vulcan Ultra Sceptic, or is he working towards some kind of 'If there's no logical proof for egalitarianism, it's irrational, therefore manifest destiny/racism/colonialism/genocide, because I can claim that groups who are able to do that are superior' type gotcha?
The most reasonable interpretation of the OP that I can come up with is a very tortured and roundabout argument that notions of human equality can only come from God.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 07:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
I'm just waiting for the "Checkmate, atheists!"
Heh, you picked it before I did. Yet all the signs in their posts are there. Especially not answering any questions.
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:58 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Is OP really just playing a rather poor game of Super Vulcan Ultra Sceptic, or is he working towards some kind of 'If there's no logical proof for egalitarianism, it's irrational, therefore manifest destiny/racism/colonialism/genocide, because I can claim that groups who are able to do that are superior' type gotcha?
That is my current working hypothesis, though some terrible, illogical, argument for his "God" is a reasonably close second.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think people like that are playing, I think they honestly think it.
Oh yes, I've met DE types who believe sincerely that the masses are too stupid to govern themselves.

Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
U.N.: we think it's best if all people had equal rights

OP: You won't apply that to goldfish? Irrational! Therefore, equal rights are just a superstition.
Yeah, that standard of "logic".
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Old 4th July 2019, 12:59 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Not really. We are humans, we cater for us. If any other animals speak up and demand equal rights, we might give it consideration.

Hans
Wait 'til the AIs speak up...
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:55 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
What is being Human?
Two aspects of the question: biologically and philosophically. The first is a matter of biologists, who can give a series of specific characteristics. A featherless biped, as it is humorously said. The second refers to the defining characteristics of the human being. These can vary according to cultures and beliefs, but the most common is that man is an animal that possesses a specific characteristic: rationality. This is manifested through a symbolic language. Other human characteristic is emotionality. In man it is also linked to language, discursive procedures and culture, which makes it quite different from other species that do not have a symbolic language.
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:58 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Pictoresque View Post
Yes, but you assume humans has more rights than animals, that there is something holy about us. That we are not a part of natur.
No, that is not what I said at all. I said that I value humans more than other animals. I didn't say anything about holiness or not being part of nature.

Perhaps you should stick to what I write, rather than add what you want to hear to it.
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:01 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mentioned this is another discussion when someone brought up tautologies.

Consider the following pair of statements.

"A square is a 2 dimensional quadrilateral consisting of four right angles and four sides of equal length."

"A 2 dimensional quadrilateral consisting of four right angles and four sides of equal length is a square."

Is that a tautology? I would argue it is not, it's a definition because it applies no meaning beyond simply applying a label on a concept. It doesn't attempt to prove anything. You can't use those two sentence to prove that squares exist. All it does is if, we do happen upon something that meets the criteria, have something to call it.

So that's a definition.

It would be Axiom, it my opinion, if it claimed those two sentences proved that squares exist just because it said so.
That's a definition, not an axiom. An axiom is a proposition. An axiom is that all right angles are equal. In the Euclidean system.
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Old 4th July 2019, 03:02 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
These can vary according to cultures and beliefs, but the most common is that man is an animal that possesses a specific characteristic: rationality.
Though this is not always evident on Internet discussion forums.

Dave
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Old 4th July 2019, 07:40 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Though this is not always evident on Internet discussion forums.

Dave
No animal has written the Critique of Pure Reason or painted Mona Lisa. I say this without disrespect to animals. But the fact is that they are incapable of doing so.
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Old 4th July 2019, 02:16 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The most reasonable interpretation of the OP that I can come up with is a very tortured and roundabout argument that notions of human equality can only come from God.

That is where I think Pictoresque is heading too. His/her question - "What is being Human? Why are we different from animals?"- is a bit of a give away. I think most of us here accept that humans are animals. The religious clinging to the - "In Gods image." - notion won't usually accept this.
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Old 4th July 2019, 09:57 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
That is where I think Pictoresque is heading too. His/her question - "What is being Human? Why are we different from animals?"- is a bit of a give away. I think most of us here accept that humans are animals. The religious clinging to the - "In Gods image." - notion won't usually accept this.
True, man is a very special animal.
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Old 5th July 2019, 05:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
True, man is a very special animal.
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:08 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
No animal has written the Critique of Pure Reason or painted Mona Lisa. I say this without disrespect to animals. But the fact is that they are incapable of doing so.
The fact is also that most humans are incapable of doing so.
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Old 5th July 2019, 06:12 AM   #103
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In fact, no single human being was ever able to do both, and now it's too late!
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
Depends on what equality we're talking about. As far as literary ability is concerned, there is no equality. As for speed in the race neither. Many animals run faster than man.
The joke you used is about rights. I do not think it applies to animals and man. They are not equal in rights and duties.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:23 AM   #105
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"I think my own species is unique" seems like a question some people think has to have a much, much, much deeper answer then I do.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
The fact is also that most humans are incapable of doing so.
It's a fact. But that doesn't mean that you and I are the same as animals in terms of the ability to use abstract language or iconic representation. Except for very lower extremes, any five year old child is above any animal in those aspects.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:24 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
True, man is a very special animal.
You mean: "Man excels in one arbitrary category decided by him in order to feel special." It's kind of like one group of humans feeling special because they have fair skin. Go tell an eagle how special you are.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:26 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
It's a fact. But that doesn't mean that you and I are the same as animals in terms of the ability to use abstract language or iconic representation. Except for very lower extremes, any five year old child is above any animal in those aspects.
And yet any 5 year old would die if left to their own devices in an environment unprotected from those stupid animals.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:26 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Go tell an eagle how special you are.
Well I would but they lack complex language and higher reasoning abilities so...

I like to think there's some area between "Man is special because the giant invisible sky wizard says so" and "We're not better then amoebas."

Homo Sapiens higher reasoning abilities can be something to be... some sort of positive emotion about without thinking we're "special" in some sort of cosmically ordained way.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:28 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"I think my own species is unique" seems like a question some people think has to have a much, much, much deeper answer then I do.
I don't think there's much to say about the aspects I have mentioned.
There will be much to be said about how these unique characteristics of the human being are linked to the natural evolution of the human species. No doubt about it. But I think these are two things that sometimes are confused with not good intentions.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:31 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Go tell an eagle how special you are.
But do it quickly, before we make them extinct.

Dave
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:33 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You mean: "Man excels in one arbitrary category decided by him in order to feel special." It's kind of like one group of humans feeling special because they have fair skin. Go tell an eagle how special you are.
Originally Posted by qayak View Post
And yet any 5 year old would die if left to their own devices in an environment unprotected from those stupid animals.
You overlooked my comment 104.
I believe that we are not talking here about superiority or inferiority in general, but about characteristics on which the rights and duties of man and animals can be based.
And let me be clear: I am not against animals having some rights. Not the right to vote or attend university, to put an example.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:33 AM   #113
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I'd wager other animals don't sit around talking about what pieces of crap they are and how the world would be better off without them so there's that...
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:35 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'd wager other animals don't sit around talking about what pieces of crap they are and how the world would be better off without them so there's that...
I dunno, next door's cat's been looking pretty depressed lately.

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Old 5th July 2019, 07:35 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well I would but they lack complex language and higher reasoning abilities so...

I like to think there's some area between "Man is special because the giant invisible sky wizard says so" and "We're not better then amoebas."

Homo Sapiens higher reasoning abilities can be something to be... some sort of positive emotion about without thinking we're "special" in some sort of cosmically ordained way.
I think you understand "special" as something out of this world. That is not the case. Special means that, within this world, the human being has some characteristics that no other animal has. At least in the way he possesses them.
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Old 5th July 2019, 07:40 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
But do it quickly, before we make them extinct.

Dave
Of course, man's special characteristics grant him rights... and duties. The awareness that we have duties towards the ecological system, including animals, is spreading more and more. And although it grows more slowly, that our duties include not to make suffer uselessly other living beings that accompany us in this planet.
There are many of us who feel the persecution of whales as a crime in the two senses I have mentioned. Some of us even think we should begin to talk about animal rights.

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Old 5th July 2019, 09:52 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well I would but they lack complex language and higher reasoning abilities so...



I like to think there's some area between "Man is special because the giant invisible sky wizard says so" and "We're not better then amoebas."



Homo Sapiens higher reasoning abilities can be something to be... some sort of positive emotion about without thinking we're "special" in some sort of cosmically ordained way.
I'm special, at least they always told me that when I was catching the special bus!

That in a humorous way makes my point, we are special to us, but that's all it means.
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Old 5th July 2019, 09:53 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by David Mo View Post
Of course, man's special characteristics grant him rights... and duties. The awareness that we have duties towards the ecological system, including animals, is spreading more and more. And although it grows more slowly, that our duties include not to make suffer uselessly other living beings that accompany us in this planet.
There are many of us who feel the persecution of whales as a crime in the two senses I have mentioned. Some of us even think we should begin to talk about animal rights.
In the UK animals do already have rights, so we are already well past the point of beginning to talk about animal rights.
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Old 5th July 2019, 10:28 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
It’s an ideal, and one that should be universal.
Alas, this is not and has likely never been the case.

We humans find it all too easy to “fear the other” and dehumanize them in various ways.
Bingo!

Almost every question today quickly turns into a circular firing squad - I would never! but (points at next person) He will.
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Old 5th July 2019, 02:23 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well I would but they lack complex language and higher reasoning abilities so...

I like to think there's some area between "Man is special because the giant invisible sky wizard says so" and "We're not better then amoebas."

Homo Sapiens higher reasoning abilities can be something to be... some sort of positive emotion about without thinking we're "special" in some sort of cosmically ordained way.

It is possible to get carried away with the higher reasoning abilities of man, but then someone like Deepak Chopra comes along, and blows the whole thing out of the water.
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