IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th March 2012, 06:27 AM   #721
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
As far as we know the wheel itself dates was from about 3500 B.C. The Neolithic (New Stone) Revolution occurred about 10,000 years ago and dramatically changed the way that early humans lived is the conventional answer to the' rise of civilization question as it is currently tought David. Please refrain from these type of simple types questions, thanks.
Why because the overturning of conventional thought was that agriculture predated the creation of the megaliths?

And that you said something else?
Quote:
You would need to cut out the megalithic rock from the stone quarry it came out of shape it to a flat surface all with other rock, move the rock from miles away weighing 12 metric tons and positioning them them into megalith rings 11 thousand years ago. You would need Pulleys and other tech no?
No, no pulleys needed at all, just rollers and ropes.
Quote:

So if this was completed 11000 years ago when did it start? 35000 years ago with this tech David?
Given the nature of these things probably within 200 years of the completion.
Quote:

The technolghy did not exise to do this david.
yes it did, what is a roller?
What is a rope?
Quote:
As an example David, advanced technical skills - Sometime around 3000 BC, the Neolithic peoples around these river valleys learned how to make and use bronze tools and weapons. This in part allowed these peoples to construct permanent shelters and homes since they no longer were nomads, following their food source and looking for caves as shelter.
You don't need bronze tools to make a roller or a rope.

And again, I don't think you even read the article.

Quote:
The way Schmidt sees it, Gobekli Tepe's sloping, rocky ground is a stonecutter's dream. Even without metal chisels or hammers, prehistoric masons wielding flint tools could have chipped away at softer limestone outcrops, shaping them into pillars on the spot before carrying them a few hundred yards to the summit and lifting them upright.
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...#ixzz1q8SURUmZ
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar

Last edited by Dancing David; 25th March 2012 at 06:34 AM.
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 06:28 AM   #722
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,235
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
The technolghy did not exise to do this david.

That is an argument from incredulity and/or an argument from ignorance.

Quote:
As an example David, advanced technical skills - Sometime around 3000 BC, the Neolithic peoples around these river valleys learned how to make and use bronze tools and weapons. This in part allowed these peoples to construct permanent shelters and homes since they no longer were nomads, following their food source and looking for caves as shelter.

If you're just saying you don't understand how such structures could be built, fine. You've made that abundantly clear and you don't need to keep saying it.

If you're trying to suggest there's some particular alternative explanation which works better than the one we have now, the one that says humans constructed these ancient sites with materials and technology available to them at the time, then to advance the discussion, get to the point.
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 06:28 AM   #723
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
I have stated that it (now also stated like with coral castle as well), was made with an alternate tech. It's clear, as there is no other rational explantion at all.
What alternate tech is needed, a stone tool can cut down a tree and trim a roller, you can make ropes without stone tools at all.

You assert your conclusion.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:42 AM   #724
Complexity
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,242
Originally Posted by mike3 View Post
So how and where do you get this background from, and where do you get the money from to fund the education?

What would you recommend?

Education doesn't have to cost very much except for time.

Schooling often costs a great deal.

Sometimes they coincide a bit, but often not.

Nearly everything I've learned I've learned on my own through reading, thinking, and working on problems.

I've had many years of undergrad and grad school, but the most important things that I learned during those years were on my own. Sometimes the topics may have been inspired by reading down for school, but most times not.

An education is a life-long adventure.

If you want an education, start today.

Decide what what you want to learn, be honest about where you stand with the prerequisite skills to begin that study, and start learning the prerequisites.
Complexity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:48 AM   #725
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
I have stated that it (now also stated like with coral castle as well), was made with an alternate tech. It's clear, as there is no other rational explantion at all.
Rubbish. You have yet to provide a scintilla of evidence this "alternate tech" of your exists, yet alone that it was used.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:49 AM   #726
Complexity
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,242
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
I have stated that it (now also stated like with coral castle as well), was made with an alternate tech. It's clear, as there is no other rational explantion at all.

Ah, so you're one of those who believes that, "If I can't understand how it can be done, then it can't be done."

Nonsense.

Quit projecting your inadequacies.

You have demonstrated no knowledge, understanding, or insight.
Complexity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:51 AM   #727
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
With all due respect you are clearly the ignorant one.

All I said per my initial post when I was dragged into this, is that sciences failure to explain the creation of what can be clearly seen would open the door to crackpot psysics to explain it. Indeed in this case it has. There ae dozens of other examples as well. Good day!
Apart from your ad hominem fallacies and arguments from ignorance, you are also the one invoking "crackpot psysics" [sic] in the form of your "alternate tech".
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:57 AM   #728
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
No, no pulleys needed at all, just rollers and ropes.
I keep pointing him to the simple machines.
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
You don't need bronze tools to make a roller or a rope.
And again, I don't think you even read the article.
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...#ixzz1q8SURUmZ
This and other articles on the subject specifically mention the large number of flint tools and remnants found there. Tedlazer also repeatedly exaggerates the distance the blocks were moved.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 08:22 AM   #729
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
LOL, U R askng what I have asked this forum as a entire whole. My answer is clearly OF COURSE, if I has access to the the tech used!!!

Maybe those who have interest should move on from this site alone (this thread alone) and start to research Coral Castle made in the 1900's by only one weak person. I warned not only in this branch of science, but in many BTW, scientists lacking of answers to questions and logical explainations stemming from what can be seen and proven, would give rise and profit to those promoting 'crackpot psysics'. These examples are but a few proofs of this.
http://web.archive.org/web/200801190.../photos_3.html

Crack pot alternatives, like block and tackle?

Which were not used in the neolithic?
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:01 AM   #730
Perpetual Student
Illuminator
 
Perpetual Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
Sad that it's allowed to use wiki a source here. Fine you have reversed you stance on using the 'known tech' for the creation of the site (or just to continue ignoring it) congrads! Don't forget after the now 'missing link tools' are found in order to prove your 'theory' you still need to account for the quarring the rock from miles away weighing 12 metric tons and positioning them them into megalith rings 11 thousand years ago.. Good luck

BTW scientists do not conur with you. They are VERY clear that there was no metal tools creted 11000 years ago. Clearly you are not ready for the coral
Castle Discourse. If I find someone above a certain level of at least common sense here I agree to use spell check when addressing them. I'm a poor speller. Too many Dr.'s in the family i guess. LOL

Further I have not stated EVER here any "mysterious and woo", alien or gods ever here. I have made fun of the notion though. I said clearly that the cration of the site does not upend physics either.

My argument was (yet again) to the TS that scientists failure to explain the creation of what can be seen clear as day would open the door to 'crackpot physics' to provide an explanation. The best answer in the thread. There is money on it.
After a couple of dozen posts, I still have no idea what point(s) you are attempting to make. Science makes new discoveries or a regular basis; sometimes those discoveries overturn some prior perspective. I have witnessed several of these events in my lifetime. That's what science does! There is no relevance to crackpot physics, crackpot archaeology, or crackpot science of any kind involved. What has been the purpose of your posts here? Are you suggesting that archaeologists are crackpots because they didn't anticipate this new archaeology, or because they do not have instantaneous answers? What is your point -- other than creating mysterious crackpot conjectures about this site?
__________________
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
- Richard P. Feynman

ξ
Perpetual Student is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:18 AM   #731
TjW
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,097
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
As far as we know the wheel itself dates was from about 3500 B.C. The Neolithic (New Stone) Revolution occurred about 10,000 years ago and dramatically changed the way that early humans lived is the conventional answer to the' rise of civilization question as it is currently tought David. Please refrain from these type of simple types questions, thanks.

You would need to cut out the megalithic rock from the stone quarry it came out of shape it to a flat surface all with other rock, move the rock from miles away weighing 12 metric tons and positioning them them into megalith rings 11 thousand years ago. You would need Pulleys and other tech no?

So if this was completed 11000 years ago when did it start? 35000 years ago with this tech David?

The technolghy did not exise to do this david. As an example David, advanced technical skills - Sometime around 3000 BC, the Neolithic peoples around these river valleys learned how to make and use bronze tools and weapons. This in part allowed these peoples to construct permanent shelters and homes since they no longer were nomads, following their food source and looking for caves as shelter.
Did you not view the Wally Wallington video? He's moving huge blocks of stone all by himself, without using rollers, pulleys, or huge crews of ultra-strong "cavemen". As far as technology, he is using rope, rocks and wooden tools that could be built by lashing parts together. All stuff available to any society that had gotten as far as, say, wooden handles on stone tools.
TjW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:22 AM   #732
AlBell
Philosopher
 
AlBell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,360
@tedlazer

What do you suggest Coral Castle brings to the discussion, it being erected with poles, scaffolding, and blocks and tackles, over many years.
AlBell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:27 AM   #733
dafydd
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 35,398
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
I have stated that it (now also stated like with coral castle as well), was made with an alternate tech. It's clear, as there is no other rational explantion at all.
What alternate technology? There is a rational explanation, but you refuse to accept it.
dafydd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:41 AM   #734
Farsight
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,640
This is worth a read: crackpots who were right. Of course there's a lot more crackpots who were wrong, make no mistake about that. But there's definitely resistance from vested interest in science. There always has been, and always will be. They will call somebody a crackpot if they pose some kind of threat. I thought this an interesting snippet by the way:

"I also wanted write a bit about Robert Chambers who wrote a popular book about evolution before Darwin. He was ridiculed by biologists for his misuse of terminology but the public were won over and he paved the way for acceptance of Darwin’s theory while much of the scientific establishment held on to creationism".

I've just read up on Robert Chambers on wikipedia. Very interesting. Even my number one hero Newton was big on creationism, so IMHO it just goes to show that intelligence is no protection from groupthink.
Farsight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:47 AM   #735
GeeMack
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 7,235
Originally Posted by Perpetual Student View Post
After a couple of dozen posts, I still have no idea what point(s) you are attempting to make. Science makes new discoveries or a regular basis; sometimes those discoveries overturn some prior perspective. I have witnessed several of these events in my lifetime. That's what science does! There is no relevance to crackpot physics, crackpot archaeology, or crackpot science of any kind involved. What has been the purpose of your posts here? Are you suggesting that archaeologists are crackpots because they didn't anticipate this new archaeology, or because they do not have instantaneous answers? What is your point -- other than creating mysterious crackpot conjectures about this site?

It could be that we're being set up for the well worn ancient aliens bit. Maybe a foundation is being laid for some magical powers, psi, or psychokinesis conjecture. Or it might be a disgruntled believer in all things woo just taking a couple of shots at the mean old skeptics. Whatever it is, I'm not betting any productive contribution will come from it.
GeeMack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 10:56 AM   #736
Perpetual Student
Illuminator
 
Perpetual Student's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,852
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
This is worth a read: crackpots who were right. Of course there's a lot more crackpots who were wrong, make no mistake about that.
By a ratio of perhaps tens of thousands to one.

Quote:
But there's definitely resistance from vested interest in science. There always has been, and always will be. They will call somebody a crackpot if they pose some kind of threat. I thought this an interesting snippet by the way:

"I also wanted write a bit about Robert Chambers who wrote a popular book about evolution before Darwin. He was ridiculed by biologists for his misuse of terminology but the public were won over and he paved the way for acceptance of Darwin’s theory while much of the scientific establishment held on to creationism".

I've just read up on Robert Chambers on wikipedia. Very interesting. Even my number one hero Newton was big on creationism, so IMHO it just goes to show that intelligence is no protection from groupthink.
Again, you seem to be oblivious to the difference between crackpots who persist in advocating conjectures that blatantly violate experimentally verified science versus scientists who speculate in areas where no existing science can support of refute their claims. Alfred Wegener is another good example of the latter while EU groupies are a classic example of the former.
__________________
It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.
- Richard P. Feynman

ξ

Last edited by Perpetual Student; 25th March 2012 at 11:01 AM.
Perpetual Student is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 01:02 PM   #737
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
In fairness when conventional science can not explain things that can be observed with ones own eyes such as the creation of ancient megalithic Structures all over the world, many of which contain stones weighing hundreds of tons, people are compelled to 'think out of the box".

Therefore, the door is open to these crackpots to try to explain what real scientists can not.

I'm sure if i gave you the ACTUAL answer as to the question of how they were made, you'd call me a crackpot too though LOL (not that I have one)
Plain flat out wrong.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 01:12 PM   #738
BravesFan
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
I had never seen that before! The ingenuity of people is what is the amazing technology IMO. It never ceases to amaze me how if you take a man who is good at his job and present him with a challenge how often he will find an elegant and effective solution.!!

Kudos to Wally!
BravesFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 01:32 PM   #739
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
maybe you want to watch Wally Wallington
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


And he isn't even using rollers.
Dammit, beaten to it again.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 01:34 PM   #740
dlorde
Philosopher
 
dlorde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,864
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
I have stated that it (now also stated like with coral castle as well), was made with an alternate tech. It's clear, as there is no other rational explantion at all.
Check out Wally Wallington's site for some amateur ideas and demonstrations of the tech required for moving, lifting, and positioning large stones and other objects. This is just one man's off-the-cuff ingenuity.

The people who made these structures were just as clever as we are today, and had hundreds of years of experience working without fancy tech. Don't underestimate our ancestors.

ETA: D'oh! too slow... Oh well, the point is made
__________________
Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...

Last edited by dlorde; 25th March 2012 at 01:37 PM.
dlorde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 01:34 PM   #741
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by LogicFail View Post
I had never seen that before! The ingenuity of people is what is the amazing technology IMO. It never ceases to amaze me how if you take a man who is good at his job and present him with a challenge how often he will find an elegant and effective solution.!!

Kudos to Wally!
I only hope that when I retire, that I will remain so productive in my thinking.

It is truly amazing how he moves enormous masses around.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 06:48 PM   #742
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 16,041
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
The one I like goes like this:

1) Humans reached the continent
2) All the megabeasts went extinct
3) Why?
4) Climate change
I'm swayed to some extent by the arguments in favour of the over-hunting hypothesis, but it's worth mentioning that climate change was also what allowed those humans to get to the continent.

If A --> B
And A --> C
it's not surprising that B and C will be correlated.

(where A is climate change, B is human migration, and C is climate change)
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:20 PM   #743
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm swayed to some extent by the arguments in favour of the over-hunting hypothesis, but it's worth mentioning that climate change was also what allowed those humans to get to the continent.

If A --> B
And A --> C
it's not surprising that B and C will be correlated.

(where A is climate change, B is human migration, and C is climate change)
And it is not climate change, it is the rapid shifts in temperatures approximately 8,000-9,000 years ago, the temperatures varied widely over very short time periods, so mega fauna did not always have the time to shift with the temperatures.

Humans came over the bering lang bridge and then much later some of the mega fauna died out.

The climate change was already occurring, it was a something that would not normally be called climate that may have led to the death of the mega fauna.
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:33 PM   #744
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
LOL, U R askng what I have asked this forum as a entire whole. My answer is clearly OF COURSE, if I has access to the the tech used!!!

Maybe those who have interest should move on from this site alone (this thread alone) and start to research Coral Castle made in the 1900's by only one weak person. I warned not only in this branch of science, but in many BTW, scientists lacking of answers to questions and logical explainations stemming from what can be seen and proven, would give rise and profit to those promoting 'crackpot psysics'. These examples are but a few proofs of this.
This works against your argument.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:40 PM   #745
BravesFan
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,784
here's a picture of the "amazing technology" being used at the Coral Castle site.





and another

BravesFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th March 2012, 07:41 PM   #746
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by GeeMack View Post
That is an argument from incredulity and/or an argument from ignorance.




If you're just saying you don't understand how such structures could be built, fine. You've made that abundantly clear and you don't need to keep saying it.

If you're trying to suggest there's some particular alternative explanation which works better than the one we have now, the one that says humans constructed these ancient sites with materials and technology available to them at the time, then to advance the discussion, get to the point.
Saying you understand less about technology than a human who lived 11,000 years ago would embarrass most people.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2012, 05:42 AM   #747
Farsight
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,640
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm swayed to some extent by the arguments in favour of the over-hunting hypothesis, but it's worth mentioning that climate change was also what allowed those humans to get to the continent.

If A --> B
And A --> C
it's not surprising that B and C will be correlated.

(where A is climate change, B is human migration, and C is climate change)
Fair enough. But there has been plenty of climate change in the past. See wiki re ice ages:

"The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene, when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods..."

It's worth reading up on. See the two science daily articles that come in positions three and four on the list. Faith based credo, LOL!
Farsight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2012, 06:55 AM   #748
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 16,041
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
Fair enough. But there has been plenty of climate change in the past. See wiki re ice ages:

"The current ice age, the Pliocene-Quaternary glaciation, started about 2.58 million years ago during the late Pliocene, when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods..."
Yeah, that's the argument that makes me lean toward the human induced extinction idea. If they survived for so long, through many bouts of climate change and whatever else, why is it this time that all these large animal species went extinct?
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2012, 07:22 AM   #749
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Because when you have a change in average temperatures of 20 degrees for a century and then swinging another direction for another century it really makes it hard fro some creatures to adapt. Obviously it was just some of them, bears adapted as did the caribou.

The mega fauna that died were not exactly ideal prey species, that is the main reaosn I don't think they were over hunted.

ETA: my knowledge is very old and out of date as well. From 1988
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th March 2012, 08:25 AM   #750
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 30,145
Originally Posted by LogicFail View Post
here's a picture of the "amazing technology" being used at the Coral Castle site.

http://www.crystalinks.com/coralcastlelift.jpg



and another

http://www.crystalinks.com/coralcastlelift1.jpg
How many of the Simple Machines can you spot?
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2012, 04:48 AM   #751
dlorde
Philosopher
 
dlorde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,864
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, that's the argument that makes me lean toward the human induced extinction idea. If they survived for so long, through many bouts of climate change and whatever else, why is it this time that all these large animal species went extinct?
You may find this article of interest.
__________________
Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...
dlorde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th March 2012, 07:11 AM   #752
Farsight
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,640
This bit of wiki isn't bad either: megafauna mass extinctions.
Farsight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2012, 11:58 AM   #753
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,589
Originally Posted by tedlazer View Post
Meaning their known available tech was not far from that sir 11K years ago. How do you you propose the site was built? Clearly at least you have the brain enough to dismiss flint tools! The issue even the poster above you fails (yet again) to see as the primary issue in my responce.
Why would we dismiss flint tools? You can do damn near anything with flint tools that you can do with metal tools. The primary advantage of metal tools is that they can be made faster and are much easier to maintain than flint. But flint is very hard and a very sharp edge can be put on it (it's better in both respects than bronze).
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2012, 02:14 PM   #754
dlorde
Philosopher
 
dlorde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,864
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
... But flint is very hard and a very sharp edge can be put on it (it's better in both respects than bronze).
Indeed - obsidian, which can make an equally sharp, but less brittle edge, is still used for the sharpest surgical scalpels.
__________________
Simple probability tells us that we should expect coincidences, and simple psychology tells us that we'll remember the ones we notice...
dlorde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2012, 05:40 PM   #755
CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
 
CapelDodger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Cardiff, South Wales
Posts: 25,102
Originally Posted by LogicFail View Post
I had never seen that before! The ingenuity of people is what is the amazing technology IMO. It never ceases to amaze me how if you take a man who is good at his job and present him with a challenge how often he will find an elegant and effective solution.!!

Kudos to Wally!
Seconded.

Sadly, the usual response from the previously incredulous is "Oh, that's just a simple trick! Anybody could have thought of that!".

Practical archaelogy has been a great advance of the last century or so, after a long period of ivory-tower theorising by deeply impractical men.
__________________
It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898)

God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150
CapelDodger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2012, 09:52 PM   #756
TjW
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,097
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Seconded.

Sadly, the usual response from the previously incredulous is "Oh, that's just a simple trick! Anybody could have thought of that!".

Practical archaelogy has been a great advance of the last century or so, after a long period of ivory-tower theorising by deeply impractical men.
The annoying thing is that for some reason the previously incredulous don't see that the bolded part is the whole point.
TjW is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th March 2012, 11:33 PM   #757
ben m
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 6,387
Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Sadly, the usual response from the previously incredulous is "Oh, that's just a simple trick! Anybody could have thought of that!".
Yep. It is just a simple trick, but simple tricks are *not* easy to think of.
ben m is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2012, 12:18 AM   #758
Farsight
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,640
This is very true. But there's a bit more to it than that. For some reason people seem to like wallowing in mystery. They cling to it. When you get busy with logs and levers and say "Look, you shift a big rock like this", they don't want to know. You show them the simple trick, and they find some reason to say "Nah, they didn't have the tools" or something. Sure, some people will say "Oh gosh, I got it", but some won't. Give it a week or two and they're back prattling on about aliens and Atlantis. They like the crackpot stuff.
Farsight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2012, 10:13 AM   #759
Complexity
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 9,242
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post
This is very true. But there's a bit more to it than that. For some reason people seem to like wallowing in mystery. They cling to it. When you get busy with logs and levers and say "Look, you shift a big rock like this", they don't want to know. You show them the simple trick, and they find some reason to say "Nah, they didn't have the tools" or something. Sure, some people will say "Oh gosh, I got it", but some won't. Give it a week or two and they're back prattling on about aliens and Atlantis. They like the crackpot stuff.



I couldn't find the broken irony meter, so you get bunnypan.
Complexity is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th March 2012, 01:14 PM   #760
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
 
Dancing David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
Originally Posted by Complexity View Post


I couldn't find the broken irony meter, so you get bunnypan.
You can borrow mine
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn
And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch
You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager
Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar
Dancing David is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.