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View Poll Results: Democrat lessons for losing '22 midterms?
Far left social agendas suck! 7 41.18%
Stick to populist economics. 3 17.65%
Abortion, abortion, abortion!!! 7 41.18%
Blue lives do actually matter. 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17th November 2022, 02:09 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
That article regurgitates Stacey Abrams case.
Josh Belinfante, a lawyer for the state, was regurgitating Abrams' case? Really? Judge Jones who said 'most' were able to vote as regurgitating Abrams' case?

Really poor showing dude.

Quote:
It's not referencing the judges findings or the actual facts that the witnesses presented. You're going to have to go to the source (which is part of the problem, NBC is too afraid of telling its readers this was a load of hogwash). Start on page 159. Abrams presented the court with seven witnesses who had trouble voting. Six of them were able to successfully vote. The longest they had to cure their issues was one hour. During which they waited inside and not for hours outside in the heat (November heat?). The final person requested an absentee ballot, claims they never received it, and then left the polling station after 15 minutes even though they would have been able to vote had they waited longer.

Here's the judge's opinion on the matter


Again. This is the judge's findings, not the plaintiff's opinions which were rejected. Abrams could not find a single person who had actually suffered the suppression. According to her, this is something so common place that it caused at least 55,000 people who wanted to vote for her to be unable to vote.
Primary elections are elections and are not in November.

There are pictures of the long lines. Who to believe, you or my lying eyes? You cannot be serious with handwaving the wait times. The longest they had to wait to cure was an hour? Of those six that means after the wait in line to vote in the first place. Is this not making it more difficult to vote? And the law against giving anyone food or drink in line? Just fine and dandy?

The suit itself was narrowed down after changes in the laws made some aspects moot. Are you contending that those changes were not to alleviate the problems alleged in the original suit?

By your own account, there was a person they found who couldn't vote. Not everyone can spend indefinite time in line then an unknown length of time waiting for an affidavit ballot. Is it your contention that excessive hurdles, that again do nothing but make it harder to vote is not voter suppression?

And again, It not being as illegal as you thought doesn't mean it was nothing or not attempted voter suppression.

And all those killed minorities over lies about replacement and election fraud? Is it still 'degradation' to Jim Crow to talk about that? The people in ******* body armor watching drop boxes? The laws, both proposed and passed, trying to nullify people's votes? Just going to keep pretending there isn't a valid comparison? Your offense is hollow. Take your ego out of it for feeling foolish and take a skeptical look at the actual actions happening.
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Old 17th November 2022, 02:14 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Nancy Pelosi is 82 years-old. She's had a great run as Speaker of the House, but yeah, the fact that she's stopping down to allow some new blood into the Democratic leadership actually is good.

This is how far we can go to characterize the loss of the House as win for the Dems. It is awesome.
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Old 17th November 2022, 02:19 PM   #643
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Here we go now. If you wait 15 minutes in line without voting, it's not just the same as being lynched. It's worse than that. It's Jim Crow on Steroids. Congratulations. You've won the internet! Voters in Georgia have never been more oppressed!
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Old 17th November 2022, 02:38 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This is how far we can go to characterize the loss of the House as win for the Dems. It is awesome.
Democrats losing the House and Pelosi stepping down from a leadership role are two different things.

And no one is characterizing the loss of the House in of itself as a win for Democrats. It's the midterms overall that are a win for Democrats.

This has of course been made very clear and you know that. But then again, if conservatives didn't have lies they would have no arguments at all.
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Old 17th November 2022, 02:44 PM   #645
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I usually don't give Pelosi credit for throwing "shade" at Trump but she stood in front of Congress and said it was her pleasure to server under 3 Presidents.

*Clap, clap, clap.*
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Old 17th November 2022, 02:49 PM   #646
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I usually don't give Pelosi credit for throwing "shade" at Trump but she stood in front of Congress and said it was her pleasure to server under 3 Presidents.

*Clap, clap, clap.*

So bold and refreshing. #cryptkeeper

I wouldn't expect anything less from her.
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Old 17th November 2022, 03:12 PM   #647
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I'm still kinda chuckling at the idea that 15 minute wait is so long that it constitutes voter suppression. Every state in the union commits voter suppression by that logic.
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Old 17th November 2022, 03:14 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I'm still kinda chuckling at the idea that 15 minute wait is so long that it constitutes voter suppression. Every state in the union commits voter suppression by that logic.
It's good that you've downgraded from white-hot outrage to mild amusement. It feels more genuine.
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Old 17th November 2022, 03:50 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Cry more about it. Your tears are delicious.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
They are tears of joy that she had to step down.
At a time when the GOP is in Trump induced disarray the Democrats have the sense to start refreshing their leadership. The Dem's problem on the new leadership front is Ole Joe.

If the GOP can dump Trump and get their shirt together with a young, vibrant ticket they have a chance in 2024 and beyond.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:02 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
If the GOP can dump Trump and get their shirt together with a young, vibrant ticket they have a chance in 2024 and beyond.

I think it is going to be DeSantis...but we will see. Trump though, will probably screw the GOP and label them as "traitors". It's always all about him.

Different topic, of course. But, I am definitely glad to see Pelosi step down. Maybe that will bring something positive for the Dems, too.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:06 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's good that you've downgraded from white-hot outrage to mild amusement. It feels more genuine.
Oh I'm outraged at Abrams and the Democratic Party for covering for her. But that people will dive so far as to claim that a 15 minute wait time justifies the claim that the state of Georgia's elections are worse than being lynched is chuckle-inducing. It's like going back to my early days on this forum and reading Stundie's latest absurdity. I just can't help but laugh at how bad of logic gets justified just to avoid admitting a point.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:07 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Josh Belinfante, a lawyer for the state, was regurgitating Abrams' case? Really? Judge Jones who said 'most' were able to vote as regurgitating Abrams' case?

Really poor showing dude.



Primary elections are elections and are not in November.

There are pictures of the long lines. Who to believe, you or my lying eyes? You cannot be serious with handwaving the wait times. The longest they had to wait to cure was an hour? Of those six that means after the wait in line to vote in the first place. Is this not making it more difficult to vote? And the law against giving anyone food or drink in line? Just fine and dandy?

The suit itself was narrowed down after changes in the laws made some aspects moot. Are you contending that those changes were not to alleviate the problems alleged in the original suit?

By your own account, there was a person they found who couldn't vote. Not everyone can spend indefinite time in line then an unknown length of time waiting for an affidavit ballot. Is it your contention that excessive hurdles, that again do nothing but make it harder to vote is not voter suppression?

And again, It not being as illegal as you thought doesn't mean it was nothing or not attempted voter suppression.

And all those killed minorities over lies about replacement and election fraud? Is it still 'degradation' to Jim Crow to talk about that? The people in ******* body armor watching drop boxes? The laws, both proposed and passed, trying to nullify people's votes? Just going to keep pretending there isn't a valid comparison? Your offense is hollow. Take your ego out of it for feeling foolish and take a skeptical look at the actual actions happening.
Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Here we go now. If you wait 15 minutes in line without voting, it's not just the same as being lynched. It's worse than that. It's Jim Crow on Steroids. Congratulations. You've won the internet! Voters in Georgia have never been more oppressed!
Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
I'm still kinda chuckling at the idea that 15 minute wait is so long that it constitutes voter suppression. Every state in the union commits voter suppression by that logic.
Yup, the only problem was one fifteen minute wait. It was the only thing tried for voter suppression. /s

Still gonna pretend all the people being shot isn't comparable to being lynched? Really just gonna ignore that along with the actually absurd wait times, the voter nullification laws, the criminalization of water and food for those long lines there are pictures of?

Keep banning the drum that the comparison to Jim Crow is hyperbole while the GOP is right now raging about how the wrong people are allowed to vote. It's very, truly, an 'enlightened centrist' view.

As JoeMorgue likes to put it, 'Sure they're being evil, but you're being so dramatic about it' isn't the argument you think it is.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:07 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
At a time when the GOP is in Trump induced disarray the Democrats have the sense to start refreshing their leadership. The Dem's problem on the new leadership front is Ole Joe.

If the GOP can dump Trump and get their shirt together with a young, vibrant ticket they have a chance in 2024 and beyond.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think it is going to be DeSantis...but we will see. Trump though, will probably screw the GOP and label them as "traitors". It's always all about him.

Different topic, of course.
Trump is going to get shunned. It's already started. When Fox stops hanging on his every word we'll know he's done.

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Old 17th November 2022, 04:08 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Oh I'm outraged at Abrams and the Democratic Party for covering for her. But that people will dive so far as to claim that a 15 minute wait time justifies the claim that the state of Georgia's elections are worse than being lynched is chuckle-inducing. It's like going back to my early days on this forum and reading Stundie's latest absurdity. I just can't help but laugh at how bad of logic gets justified just to avoid admitting a point.

Well, it should be no surprise. I mean, even requiring having valid ID has been labeled as being racist, in the recent past...
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:28 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Still gonna pretend all the people being shot isn't comparable to being lynched?
Georgia law does not permit this. And I'm not aware of a single person in Georgia who was shot for trying to vote in 2018.

Quote:
Really just gonna ignore that along with the actually absurd wait times, for those long lines there are pictures of?
Absurdly long wait times... of which 1 hour was the longest anyone in the lawsuit had to wait. And the judged ruled was not a burden on their right to vote.

Quote:
the voter nullification laws,
Stacey Abrams was unable to find a single person who couldn't vote as a result of this.

Quote:
the criminalization of water and food
The election workers (who are usually residents of the county) can and do put out water. People aren't allowed to hand out gifts to people in lines, which is a pretty common in a bunch of other states, like noted-non-Jim-Crow-State New York.

If this prevented anyone voting, please provide their statements.

Quote:
Keep banning the drum that the comparison to Jim Crow is hyperbole while the GOP is right now raging about how the wrong people are allowed to vote.
I don't even know how to parse this.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:36 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Oh I'm outraged at Abrams and the Democratic Party for covering for her. But that people will dive so far as to claim that a 15 minute wait time justifies the claim that the state of Georgia's elections are worse than being lynched is chuckle-inducing. It's like going back to my early days on this forum and reading Stundie's latest absurdity. I just can't help but laugh at how bad of logic gets justified just to avoid admitting a point.
Is that justification worse than the bad faith of your arguments?
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:54 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Georgia law does not permit this. And I'm not aware of a single person in Georgia who was shot for trying to vote in 2018.
Oh expert on Jim Crow, you know that lynching generally wasn't legal either, right?

I don't know why you keep limiting everything to Georgia, and I really don't care at this point. Your hate-on for Abrams isn't reasonable. The fact that people are being killed over false beliefs about elections and immigration (and being non-white) is salient to the comparisons to Jim Crow no matter how much you want to downplay the risks, apparently for no real reason.


Quote:
Absurdly long wait times... of which 1 hour was the longest anyone in the lawsuit had to wait. And the judged ruled was not a burden on their right to vote.
That was the longest wait to cure a ballot, not to vote, and only of those seven, not for the state of Georgia.

Again, who to believe, the photographic evidence or you? And again, it being legal doesn't mean it isn't attempted voter suppression. A lot of things that were illegal under the VRA are now legal under the grand legal theory of 'well I think enough time has passed'.

Quote:
Stacey Abrams was unable to find a single person who couldn't vote as a result of this.
And? The Coup attempt also didn't work. You recognize that the attempt was bad in one case but not in any other. Why? Why doesn't the ability to nullify lawfully cast votes count? 'They didn't do it.' They shouldn't be able to.

Quote:
The election workers (who are usually residents of the county) can and do put out water. People aren't allowed to hand out gifts to people in lines, which is a pretty common in a bunch of other states, like noted-non-Jim-Crow-State New York.
It isn't ok for New York either, especially with super long wait times! What about this do you not get? There is no real benefit to these laws apart from making it harder to vote.

Quote:
If this prevented anyone voting, please provide their statements.
Making it harder to vote for no other benefit isn't suddenly ok if people overcome it. Why would it be? What possible framework are you working under that calling these efforts to suppress the vote exactly what they are is a dealbreaker for you?

Right, you feel foolish it wasn't worse.

Quote:
I don't even know how to parse this.
They're telling you they don't want the wrong people to vote. They're saying it should be harder to vote so the wrong people can't vote. They're saying that the wrong people's votes should just be thrown out.

And you, for whatever rationale, decide that no, that doesn't mean they're ever trying to do what they say they should do.

Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Okay, I think I'm done. Have fun in your echo chambers folks. This place is still a pointless time-waster.
Sure buddy, it's an echo chamber, they laughed at Galileo, the truth is somewhere in the middle, or whatever 'enlightened centrists' tell themselves when they can't support their point. Go tell everyone how 'extreme' those nasty dems are for *checks notes* saying that the GOP who keep saying a lot of votes just shouldn't count were trying to make it harder to vote.

I've noticed that so many of our 'ardent' centrists have to, and always do, just dispense with information sources inconvenient to their desired conclusion as 'not counting' or being 'not official'. They will select between cases what counts based on nothing else. Sometimes it has to be official in chamber or court statements, and the government official's other words don't count. Sometimes information must be ignored if activists said it, no matter how ridiculous that requirement would be. Here it's 'if it wasn't presented in this narrowed down specific case in Georgia, it doesn't count'.

This 'set seeking' behavior isn't rational and it certainly isn't convincing, and frankly I have no idea why it even soothes their cognitive dissonance.
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Old 18th November 2022, 06:59 AM   #658
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
No you didn't, you only showed you were looking for the word "Republican." Read more critically instead of waiting to be spoonfed virtue signalling and maybe you'll find some of what you're looking for. If you'd like a hint: what do you think "Gilead" refers to, and in what context do you think I was using it?
Ahh, so you were cryptically, subtly criticizing Republicans by using a medical company's name*. While in big, bold font, over and over outright plainly criticizing Dems. You realize you're proving my point, right?



*Oh, wait, you were talking about the fictional homeland of Roland Deschain, weren't you? Or the Pulitzer Prize winning novel by Marilynne Robinson?
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Old 18th November 2022, 07:02 AM   #659
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Here we go now. If you wait 15 minutes in line without voting, it's not just the same as being lynched. It's worse than that. It's Jim Crow on Steroids. Congratulations. You've won the internet! Voters in Georgia have never been more oppressed!
As a voter in Georgia, I've waited hours in line.
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Old 18th November 2022, 07:24 AM   #660
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
So Hochul did not do an interview for Sharpton and call the fears of high crime a conspiracy theory?
The article quotes a tiny little snippet from the interview. If the interview constitutes such weighty evidence, I suggest you track down a better source.
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Old 18th November 2022, 08:52 AM   #661
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To get things back on topic, this is your daily reminder that Democrats won the midterms and this thread remains a dumpster fire.
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Old 18th November 2022, 11:52 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
As a voter in Georgia, I've waited hours in line.
It appears that the wait time this last election wasn't very long at all. However, this could be due to several reasons, people not wanting to show up at all because of the hours of waiting in 2020 elections could be one of them. Voter suppression is about making it appear that voting isn't worth the effort so making wait times long doesn't have to happen every time.
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Old 18th November 2022, 02:03 PM   #663
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It appears that the wait time this last election wasn't very long at all. However, this could be due to several reasons, people not wanting to show up at all because of the hours of waiting in 2020 elections could be one of them. Voter suppression is about making it appear that voting isn't worth the effort so making wait times long doesn't have to happen every time.
Besides that, voter suppression isn't accurately measured by the people who overcome it, but those who don't. And you don't count those only by those who showed up, but those who wanted to but thought they wouldn't be able to anyway.

The person who didn't go because they couldn't find a sitter for five hours (some of the actual wait times were longer in the primary this very year) for some reason 'doesn't count' as suppression.

So if people go anyway and overcome the suppression, it wasn't actually suppression. If the people don't go to try to vote, they weren't suppressed because they didn't try.

This is what I mean by 'set seeking', expanding or contracting what 'counts' to get the desired outcome. It's almost the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, but with discussion. It's verbal gerrymandering.
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:00 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Nancy Pelosi is 82 years-old. She's had a great run as Speaker of the House, but yeah, the fact that she's stopping down to allow some new blood into the Democratic leadership actually is good.
This is how far we can go to characterize the loss of the House as win for the Dems. It is awesome.
This is how far you can go to mischaracterize what johnny karate said. Her stepping down from her leadership role may have zero to do with the loss of the House. Remember that she had that role during past GOP House majorities. Considering that she's 82 years old and now has an elderly husband with a long recovery ahead of him to consider, and that her leadership role is extremely demanding and requires her to be across the country from her husband, I don't think it's illogical to consider the loss of the House is her primary reason for stepping down.
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Old 18th November 2022, 03:11 PM   #665
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I think it is going to be DeSantis...but we will see. Trump though, will probably screw the GOP and label them as "traitors". It's always all about him.

Different topic, of course. But, I am definitely glad to see Pelosi step down. Maybe that will bring something positive for the Dems, too.
You and a lot of Republicans who got their arses kicked by her.

Spineless, arse-kissing, coward McCarthy will take his orders straight from Trump. Such an improvement.
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Old 30th November 2022, 07:37 PM   #666
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Kitchen table issues

The anonymous columnist "Lexington" wrote an essay called "Crime and Punishment" at The Economist (5 November 2022) which discussed the flat-footed Democratic response to the predictable Republican charge of being soft on crime. I would say that the Democrats need to learn how to talk about kitchen table issues more broadly; the state of education after Covid-19 and the state of the economy are two other examples.
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Old 30th November 2022, 09:32 PM   #667
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I said somewhere on this site earlier that the Democrats didn't win and just lost by a smaller margin than expected. And at the Federal level, that's still true. They had a net loss of seats. But it's turned out to be the case that, in state governments, they actually gained in legislative seats, legislative majorities, and governors. So overall I guess calling it an actual win is fair enough, although it's still a tiny one.

But that doesn't mean the thread title is entirely invalidated. There are lessons to be learned from winning as well as from losing. The problem is that most Democrats are probably taking the wrong lesson from this one: "We don't need to do anything to earn votes because the Republicans are scaring voters away." That actually did work this time, but it hasn't before and can't be counted on in the future.

Last edited by Delvo; 30th November 2022 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 1st December 2022, 10:32 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
The anonymous columnist "Lexington" wrote an essay called "Crime and Punishment" at The Economist (5 November 2022) which discussed the flat-footed Democratic response to the predictable Republican charge of being soft on crime. I would say that the Democrats need to learn how to talk about kitchen table issues more broadly; the state of education after Covid-19 and the state of the economy are two other examples.
I think this is what happened in Virginia last year. McAuliffe pretty much ran on "Orange Man bad!" while Youngkin kept Trump at arm's length and talked about re-opening schools and such. Granted, Youngkin's ideas were terrible and he simply played into the worse base instincts of his voters, but at least he was talking about their day-to-day concerns. McAuliffe waited until like a week before election day and brought Randi Weingarten to wag her finger at everybody.

In NY, the "soft on crime" bit had traction because the state Democratic party has given a lot of concessions to the state Republicans for the last 4 years (this led to Republican-friendly redistricting), had several prominent Democrats repeat the "crime spike" lie, and slept through the 2022 general election.

Crime, education, and the economy all overlap. The Democrats as a whole have plans to deal with them all, unlike Republicans. They just let the Republicans dictate the conversation every time. And they too often try "tough on crime" posturing, which is just letting cops brutalize poor people to make white suburbanites feel tough.
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Old 1st December 2022, 02:14 PM   #669
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I think this is what happened in Virginia last year. McAuliffe pretty much ran on "Orange Man bad!" while Youngkin kept Trump at arm's length and talked about re-opening schools and such. Granted, Youngkin's ideas were terrible and he simply played into the worse base instincts of his voters, but at least he was talking about their day-to-day concerns. McAuliffe waited until like a week before election day and brought Randi Weingarten to wag her finger at everybody.
As a Virginian who watched that campaign with mounting concern and frustration, I would agree. McAuliffe *did* have some adds with more substantive "why you're better off with me" content, but I didn't see them that frequently and hardly remember their contents, which is a problem.

I feel like the "Orange Man bad" spots that he ran should have been saved for a late-campaign blitz, rather than being his flagship add running for weeks and weeks until it got downright boring.

And that is, of course, why I am such a highly-paid, highly successful campaign manager myself.[/sarcasm].
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Old 1st December 2022, 06:13 PM   #670
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Hochul and McAuliffe

In Lexington's column he discussed the NY governor's race: "When Ms. Hochul responded that 'data is still being collected' and 'sound policy' beats 'sound bites,' she was taking a page from the Dukakis playbook." I totally agree that the former quote is bad, but I think that the latter quote is at least passable.

Regarding Virginia, I recall a conflict regarding schools. Mr. McAuliffe made it sound as if he opposed giving parents any say; perhaps a more narrowly tailored statement would have been better.
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