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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:01 AM   #3201
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The SC was Trump's last chance to keep keep his tax returns out of the hands of the House Ways and Means Committee. The SC ruled he has to turn them over. Buckle up.
Unfortunately it might be too little, too late.

With the upcoming takeover of the house by the GOP in the new year (where I assume they will shut down any investigations into Trump), and with various congressional breaks for the holidays, they only have about a month. Not really enough time to do anything significant with them.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:13 AM   #3202
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Unfortunately it might be too little, too late.

With the upcoming takeover of the house by the GOP in the new year (where I assume they will shut down any investigations into Trump), and with various congressional breaks for the holidays, they only have about a month. Not really enough time to do anything significant with them.
The GOP has already made it clear that they will end the investigation by the House into Trump's taxes but I have a feeling those tax returns will end up in public view or the DOJ before they take over the House in January. At least I hope so.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:16 AM   #3203
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Dems can pick up this investigation, or any Presidents tax records whenever they want, given majorities, now that the SC got of its ass.
Republicans might be quite happy to have the first President to have their taxes examined to be Trump and not DeSantis.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:18 AM   #3204
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The GOP has already made it clear that they will end the investigation by the House into Trump's taxes but I have a feeling those tax returns will end up in public view or the DOJ before they take over the House in January. At least I hope so.
Even if congress has the authority to access Trump's tax returns, I don't think they would be allowed to make those returns public. They may also be restricted from giving them to the DoJ.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:38 AM   #3205
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Even if congress has the authority to access Trump's tax returns, I don't think they would be allowed to make those returns public. They may also be restricted from giving them to the DoJ.
Probably not...it's a pity that the House C. has been trying to get those tax returns for years and now that they do, the Republicans will do whatever they can to protect Trump's dishonest ass. Par for the course.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 01:07 PM   #3206
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Is there any reason the Senate can't pick up the investigation? I assume they have the same, or more, clearance than the House does.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:33 PM   #3207
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there any reason the Senate can't pick up the investigation? I assume they have the same, or more, clearance than the House does.
Good question! From your post to Schumer's ears.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 02:46 PM   #3208
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there any reason the Senate can't pick up the investigation? I assume they have the same, or more, clearance than the House does.
I think the law just says tax returns shall be provided to "top congressmen" on request. That would probably include senators.

The problem is, it was a specific committee in the house (ways and means) that made the request... I am not sure which Senate committee would be relevant. (Committee on taxation? Ethics?)

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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:12 PM   #3209
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The GOP has already made it clear that they will end the investigation by the House into Trump's taxes but I have a feeling those tax returns will end up in public view or the DOJ before they take over the House in January. At least I hope so.
Do what's done over here when a member of the opposition is handed something the government is trying to supress; read them into the record on the floor of the House. Then anybody can access them and publish them.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:18 PM   #3210
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Do what's done over here when a member of the opposition is handed something the government is trying to supress; read them into the record on the floor of the House. Then anybody can access them and publish them.
I have no idea if that would be legal here or not.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 03:21 PM   #3211
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Not legal. The special rules that allow chairs of certain committees (both House and Senate) to request tax returns also governs how such information may be used and who may see it.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:48 PM   #3212
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This will not amount to anything. The goal is just to make Trump look bad, to try to sink any future election prospects for him.
Nonsense.

It amounts to 3 different felonies including espionage and obstruction of justice. Trump stole government documents including over 100 classified documents. And despite being given multiple opportunities over a 15 month period to return them, not only didn't, he attempted to hide them. He also got lawyers to declare there weren't anymore when he knew there were.
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Old 23rd November 2022, 05:50 PM   #3213
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don't understand my claim. I'm saying that your understanding of the fundamentals of the situation are wrong. I'm not interested in debating the specifics, but I'm making a prediction. Things will not play out the way you want them to, because your understanding is wrong.

It's happened time and time again already. This time isn't going to be different.
No he didn't. You seem to lack understanding, not him. I don’t blame you for not wanting to debate specifics.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:40 AM   #3214
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Is there any reason the Senate can't pick up the investigation? I assume they have the same, or more, clearance than the House does.
The house has to start investigation for an impeachment. But the senate cn do other investigations.

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-...se-win-1761336
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Old 25th November 2022, 07:19 AM   #3215
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Here's a scenario:

Trump sells copies or gives access to some of the stolen documents.

Maybe he takes the money.

Maybe "godfather style" he gives access in consideration for future "favors". Someone gives him a loan he never has to pay back. Or he gets a property for pennies on the dollar.

The he gets busted Al Capone style for not reporting income.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:24 AM   #3216
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Here's a scenario:

Trump sells copies or gives access to some of the stolen documents.
...
The he gets busted Al Capone style for not reporting income.
Possible. However, I posted a reference to an article earlier where the assumption by the investigators was that he took the documents for personal reasons (keep as momentos)

Plus, even if he did sell the documents, trying to unravel his taxes and the missing payments would be a nightmare.
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Old 25th November 2022, 08:41 AM   #3217
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What do you mean? Whoever the documents are sold to just arranges an inexplicably lucrative branding arrangement for a Trump hotel somewhere. Like the one that was just announced by a Saudi Arabian firm. It's not even below the table anymore.
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Old 25th November 2022, 05:32 PM   #3218
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Possible. However, I posted a reference to an article earlier where the assumption by the investigators was that he took the documents for personal reasons (keep as momentos)

Plus, even if he did sell the documents, trying to unravel his taxes and the missing payments would be a nightmare.

Boxes and boxes of Top Secret mementos! Not a painting (well ya he stole those too), not gifts from foreign states (oh, stole those too). THOSE are mementos. Trump is that stupid.

I don't care why he did it. At the very least it is criminally negligent handling of Top Secret material (or something like that), as if intent matters. He gets no benefit of doubt from me, I must assume he had other ideas in mind.

They better arrest his stupid ass. I know they would have arrested my brother in law if he'd so much as spilled coffee on a classified document when he was in the Navy.
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Old 26th November 2022, 11:46 PM   #3219
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
What do you mean? Whoever the documents are sold to just arranges an inexplicably lucrative branding arrangement for a Trump hotel somewhere. Like the one that was just announced by a Saudi Arabian firm. It's not even below the table anymore.
This, pretty much. Trump is all about Trump and nobody else. He ALWAYS wants a piece of the action, and has not given a rat's ass about the law or other peoples' opinions or the consequences while doing so.
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Old 27th November 2022, 04:38 PM   #3220
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Not legal. The special rules that allow chairs of certain committees (both House and Senate) to request tax returns also governs how such information may be used and who may see it.
What, there's no concept of parliamentary privilege?
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Old 27th November 2022, 06:19 PM   #3221
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
What, there's no concept of parliamentary privilege?
Yes, there is:

Article I, Section 6, Paragraph 1 of the American Constitution codifies the basic principles of parliamentary privilege that the Bill of Rights, 1689 affirmed for English Members of Parliament:
"
[Senators and Representatives] shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
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Old 27th November 2022, 08:54 PM   #3222
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Quote:
Possible. However, I posted a reference to an article earlier where the assumption by the investigators was that he took the documents for personal reasons (keep as momentos
Boxes and boxes of Top Secret mementos! Not a painting (well ya he stole those too), not gifts from foreign states (oh, stole those too). THOSE are mementos. Trump is that stupid.



I don't care why he did it. At the very least it is criminally negligent handling of Top Secret material (or something like that), as if intent matters. .
I don't care why he did it either, and it should not affect the decision to indict or not. (That should be based on simple possession)

But it might make a difference when it comes time to evaluate potential security fallout (Who potentially saw what documents) as well as evidence gathering. If he took the documents to sell, then we can assume the information has been compromised. If he stole them as "momentos" they still might be compromised but there is a chance they were not received by US adversaries.

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Old 28th November 2022, 10:40 AM   #3223
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, there is:

Article I, Section 6, Paragraph 1 of the American Constitution codifies the basic principles of parliamentary privilege that the Bill of Rights, 1689 affirmed for English Members of Parliament:
"
[Senators and Representatives] shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
Well then read his tax records into the record for the House, there's no legal impediment go it. A lot worse has been read into the Dáil and Parliament because of that provision in the Bill of Rights.
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Old 28th November 2022, 11:50 AM   #3224
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Yes, there is:

Article I, Section 6, Paragraph 1 of the American Constitution codifies the basic principles of parliamentary privilege that the Bill of Rights, 1689 affirmed for English Members of Parliament:
"
[Senators and Representatives] shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same; and for any Speech or Debate in either House, they shall not be questioned in any other Place."
There's an interesting extension of this in California law. One can't be arrested or detained while voting or traveling to/from a polling place for any crime that isn't a felony. At least that was the law back in the 70's when I was perusing Cal. Codes.
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Old 28th November 2022, 04:28 PM   #3225
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I have a feeling those tax returns will be accidentally leaked. I think we will see them very soon.
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Old 30th November 2022, 12:49 AM   #3226
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Well then read his tax records into the record for the House, there's no legal impediment go it. A lot worse has been read into the Dáil and Parliament because of that provision in the Bill of Rights.




Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I have a feeling those tax returns will be accidentally leaked. I think we will see them very soon.
Where's the Supreme Court R v W leaker when you need him/her?
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Old 30th November 2022, 04:55 AM   #3227
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Where's the Supreme Court R v W leaker when you need him/her?
Taking a nap in Ginnie's purse until he is summoned once more.
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Old 1st December 2022, 01:16 AM   #3228
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I put this in the Trump Presidency thread first but this is more appropriate since we were discussing it here.


The Treasury has turned over 6 years of Trump's taxes to the House W & M Committee.

Quote:
Democrats are not expected to review the tax returns at this session, and the documents are not expected to be immediately released to the public.

House general counsel Doug Letter plans to brief the panel about section 6103 of the tax law at the meeting, which is a weekly session that Democrats on the committee have when they’re not on recess.

Neal refused to say to CNN if he had possession of the Trump tax documents, saying the law strictly prohibits him from discussing the state of the returns. Earlier Wednesday, the congressman also declined to say if they would release any of the returns publicly.
If they don't release them publicly this month, the GOP majority will shut them down once they take control of the House.
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Old 1st December 2022, 03:52 AM   #3229
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I put this in the Trump Presidency thread first but this is more appropriate since we were discussing it here.


The Treasury has turned over 6 years of Trump's taxes to the House W & M Committee.



If they don't release them publicly this month, the GOP majority will shut them down once they take control of the House.
Betting they will appear sooner than expected, and with no prior fanfare. Like the last sitting day of Congress for the year or something. Happy Christmas, Donny!
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Old 1st December 2022, 08:03 AM   #3230
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Someone here must know -- to be "read into" the Congressional Record, do they actually have to be "read" (aloud), or just submitted somehow?
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Old 1st December 2022, 08:09 AM   #3231
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Nvm
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Old 1st December 2022, 11:07 AM   #3232
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Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle View Post
Well then read his tax records into the record for the House, there's no legal impediment go it. A lot worse has been read into the Dáil and Parliament because of that provision in the Bill of Rights.
The law says that no officer or executive of the government can disclose all or part of an individual’s tax return and that “the term ‘disclosure’ means making known to any person in any manner whatever a return or return information.”

26 US Code § 6103.

…..
Has anyone asked why TFG won’t voluntarily release them given that in his own words they will show “how smart I am”?

…….
ETA: given the price of TFG’s “stock” these days, I imagine there might even be some Republicans on the committee who would enjoy seeing the returns in the hands of the press.
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Old 1st December 2022, 11:23 AM   #3233
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
The law says that no officer or executive of the government can disclose all or part of an individual’s tax return and that “the term ‘disclosure’ means making known to any person in any manner whatever a return or return information.”

26 US Code § 6103.

…..
Has anyone asked why TFG won’t voluntarily release them given that in his own words they will show “how smart I am”?

…….
ETA: given the price of TFG’s “stock” these days, I imagine there might even be some Republicans on the committee who would enjoy seeing the returns in the hands of the press.
Could they be paraphrased into the public record somehow or another? Something along the lines of, "Hoo boy, I've seen the tax records, and let me tell you, um, care to take a guess who isn't a billionaire by a longshot?"
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Old 1st December 2022, 11:40 AM   #3234
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Could they be paraphrased into the public record somehow or another? Something along the lines of, "Hoo boy, I've seen the tax records, and let me tell you, um, care to take a guess who isn't a billionaire by a longshot?"
I think if I were to go down that path I’d say “I’ve seen them but am bound by law to not talk about them. So I request that the press not to ask me if everything in the returns has been done honestly and correctly or ask me if they would make invaluable evidence for many future lawsuits.”

Wait, no matter how crooked it was, I’d have more fun saying “this might be the most honest document that Trump has ever signed his name to.”
MAGA-heads would hear “no document could be more honest”
Others would hear “given that he is the most dishonest person ever, ‘might be the most honest’ is a pretty, pretty low bar.”
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Old 1st December 2022, 03:54 PM   #3235
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I think if I were to go down that path I’d say “I’ve seen them but am bound by law to not talk about them. So I request that the press not to ask me if everything in the returns has been done honestly and correctly or ask me if they would make invaluable evidence for many future lawsuits.”

Wait, no matter how crooked it was, I’d have more fun saying “this might be the most honest document that Trump has ever signed his name to.”
MAGA-heads would hear “no document could be more honest”
Others would hear “given that he is the most dishonest person ever, ‘might be the most honest’ is a pretty, pretty low bar.”
In law, "might" implies "might not" as well.
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Old 1st December 2022, 03:56 PM   #3236
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https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckra...ar-a-lago-case

Bummer, dude.

Quote:
The court found that U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon for the Southern District of Florida abused her discretion by agreeing to entertain the civil case that Trump brought seeking to halt a criminal investigation, and that she erred in installing a special master.
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Old 1st December 2022, 04:00 PM   #3237
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Should have posted this here...
Originally Posted by CNN
Appeals court halts special master review of documents seized at Mar-a-Lago in major defeat for Trump

A federal appeals court has halted a third-party review of documents seized from former President Donald Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate.

The ruling removes a major obstacle to the Justice Department’s investigation into the mishandling of government records from Trump’s time in the White House.

In a ruling on Thursday, the 11th US Circuit Court of Appeals reversed a lower court’s order appointing a so-called special master to sort through thousands of documents found at Trump’s home to determine what should be off limits to investigators.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/polit...ter/index.html
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Last edited by Mike!; 1st December 2022 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 1st December 2022, 04:04 PM   #3238
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That link didn't work for me, but this did.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/01/polit...ter/index.html
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Old 1st December 2022, 04:10 PM   #3239
Mike!
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I suspect there'll be a great deal of ketchup thrown against a wall tonight.
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Old 1st December 2022, 04:50 PM   #3240
Norman Alexander
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I suspect there'll be a great deal of ketchup thrown against a wall tonight.
Oh to be like Fuentes - a poop-fly on the wall at Mar-a-Lago.
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