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Old 24th November 2022, 06:05 AM   #41
Darat
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Did they announce that they weren't firing him because of his job performance, but because of the color of his skin and in the name of their racial equity policy? Had he been on the job and performing in an outstanding manner for 20 years?

I mean, I get your post, but the situation is not comparable...even if some may consider it quite outrageous. Perhaps that fellow has potential grounds for a lawsuit, as well.

What makes this situation so outrageous is the official announcement that they are putting his job to market because he is white. Like, they said directly that it isn't because of his job-related performance or any such thing...that it is based upon race. They could have found any number of reasons...but they officially announced this one.

I think they will get away with it because this is for a 5 year fixed-term contract and he is at the end of his term, so he is not being let go because he isn't "diverse" or white, rather his contract has come to an end. (I suspect there is no automatic renewal clause in his contract.)

Rather than simply award him with a new fixed term contract without any competition for the role - they are saying they are going to put it out to tender.

Here in the UK a local authority would have a legal obligation to put such a contract back out to tender at the end of the term, they wouldn't be able to give him a new contract on the nod*.



(*Of course, corruption does happen, and such contracts are awarded without due process taking place.)
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:07 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they will get away with it because this is for a 5 year fixed-term contract and he is at the end of his term, so he is not being let go because he isn't "diverse" or white, rather his contract has come to an end. (I suspect there is no automatic renewal clause in his contract.)

Rather than simply award him with a new fixed term contract without any competition for the role - they are saying they are going to put it out to tender.

Here in the UK a local authority would have a legal obligation to put such a contract back out to tender at the end of the term, they wouldn't be able to give him a new contract on the nod*.



(*Of course, corruption does happen, and such contracts are awarded without due process taking place.)
I wonder why it is a contract and not an employee or appointment position. Maybe that informs why the council feels free to experiment?
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:08 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they will get away with it because this is for a 5 year fixed-term contract and he is at the end of his term, so he is not being let go because he isn't "diverse" or white, rather his contract has come to an end. .

But they literally said they are putting his job out there because of their racial equity plan. If they had simply said nothing, they would have been better off.

Quote:
"Our decision wasn’t about your performance, but after twenty years we wanted to take action on the City’s racial equity plan and give people an opportunity to compete for a leadership position," the Commission’s president Chris Jerdonek wrote in an email to Arntz, according to various local news outlets.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But they literally said they are putting his job out there because of their racial equity plan. If they had simply said nothing, they would have been better off.
It isn't his job when the contract is up....so he isn't being let go
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:30 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But they literally said they are putting his job out there because of their racial equity plan. If they had simply said nothing, they would have been better off.
Putting the contract out there not his job.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Putting the contract out there not his job.

Sorry, I just can't see how one can justify this. Yes, putting the contract up is fine. But to announce it is due to race? Nope.

That is where they ****** up, by being honest. They need to learn from more experienced racists.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:37 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Sorry, I just can't see how one can justify this. Yes, putting the contract up is fine. But to announce it is due to race? Nope.

That is where they ****** up, by being honest. They need to learn from more experienced racists.
I'm not trying to justify nor excuse their decision - I was saying why I think they will get away with it without falling foul of your employment laws and human rights.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:38 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
As much as it pains me to agree with Warp about anything, in this case I have to agree with both him and Hercules56. The Committee's own statements make the motivation clear. I wouldn't be surprised to hear this decision is reversed or that a lawsuit is filed.
If this isn't a sign the Apocalypse is upon us, I don't know what is.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm not trying to justify nor excuse their decision - I was saying why I think they will get away with it without falling foul of your employment laws and human rights.

I think they could have, easily. But they tipped their hand.

We will see. I doubt it would be in the news if there wasn't something brewing on the legal front.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:41 AM   #50
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Another way they may get away with it is if it is the case that all such "leadership" contracts are being put up for competition when they come to the end of their term.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:43 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Another way they may get away with it is if it is the case that all such "leadership" contracts are being put up for competition when they come to the end of their term.

That could have worked. If they had not announced it was a decision made due to race. But it wouldn't surprise me if they manage to weasel out of being accountable, considering the social climate.

Given the same circumstances here, nobody would dare an announcement of intent/justification such as they made, with an accomplished minority in that role. I'm fairly certain.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:45 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
- The part about being let go "because he's white"? -- a complete and utter lie, and by repeating it in the title of this thread, you are carrying water for Faux News, and helping to enable their racist agenda.

- The part about Arntz being up for consideration if he wishes to apply? -- left out because the above lie would not work if it was left in.


Let that be a lesson to you Hercules56... never, ever take anything you see, read or hear from Faux News at face value. They will twist, make stuff up, deliberately leave out information and lie in order to spin stories to comply with their right wing extremist politics. Consider everything thing you see there as if the source was something like "Stormfront" or "The Daily Stormer"
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
This post is going to age poorly.
Indeed. An abject lesson in jumping the gun.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:57 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
That could have worked. If they had not announced it was a decision made due to race. But it wouldn't surprise me if they manage to weasel out of being accountable, considering the social climate.

Given the same circumstances here, nobody would dare an announcement of intent/justification such as they made, with an accomplished minority in that role. I'm fairly certain.
Can we start at one end of the spectrum at work back?

Do you think a city council could be justified in considering having diverse leadership in city government improves the function of government of being representative of the citizens?
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:01 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Can we start at one end of the spectrum at work back?

Do you think a city council could be justified in considering having diverse leadership in city government improves the function of government of being representative of the citizens?

I don't think that they can justify clearly stating that they are putting someone's job up for grabs because they aren't the right color.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:04 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't think that they can justify clearing stating that they are putting someone's job up for grabs because they aren't the right color.
That wasn't my question...we will get there don't worry. I'm trying to figure out if you are even open to the idea that it can be considered

(also, not his job at time of contract expiration)
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:05 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That wasn't my question...we will get there don't worry. I'm trying to figure out if you are even open to the idea that it can be considered

(also, not his job at time of contract expiration)

There is no "getting there", lol. We arrived already.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:08 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
There is no "getting there", lol. We arrived already.
It is a very different conversation if you think diversity in leadership can never be a goal of council or you think it can but has to be done differently, right? If I talk you you thinking you believe one of those, and you believe the other one, we are not having the same conversation.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:11 AM   #58
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Diversity in leadership is a wonderful goal. Only forcing white people to reapply for their jobs in order to achieve that goal is disgusting and a federal crime.

Instead they should use advertising and recruitment and other legal ways to expand the pool of applicants.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:14 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Another way they may get away with it is if it is the case that all such "leadership" contracts are being put up for competition when they come to the end of their term.
If they go full Woke, they will not apologize at all for what they have done and instead say that the goal of racial equity is a just one and all means are acceptable. Even if it means violating federal anti-discrimination law.
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:16 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Diversity in leadership is a wonderful goal. Only forcing white people to reapply for their jobs in order to achieve that goal is disgusting and a federal crime.

Instead they should use advertising and recruitment and other legal ways to expand the pool of applicants.
Okay, well this appears to be a contract...it isn't his job when the contract expires is it?
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Old 24th November 2022, 11:56 AM   #61
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Having been a long-term contractor, I'm pretty sure the diversity angle is a smokescreen. They are simply wanting to pay less for the job - save money in what is probably a tight financial situation. It really will not matter the ethnicity, religion, gender, sexuality, pronouns, what colour skin or family background the new contractor has. By hiding the vacancy behind "seeking diversity" they hope to get the new contract set up at a significantly cheaper rate. Of course the current contractor can reapply! I'm sure they hope he will! Seemed to be doing a good job. But the new rate will very likely be somewhat less than he was on before.
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Old 24th November 2022, 12:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Okay, well this appears to be a contract...it isn't his job when the contract expires is it?
There's no evidence they had any issue automatically renewing his contract before.

What changed? They realized he is white? Seems so.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There's no evidence they had any issue automatically renewing his contract before.

What changed? They realized he is white? Seems so.
Your comment was , "Only forcing white people to reapply for their jobs"

They have an opening
but they are not doing that.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:45 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I cannot find a reason that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would not apply. Unless he's on a 1099 versus W-2

ETA if his boss whose making this decision is also white, why doesn't he or she resign and suggest a person of another race take their position?
Ironically, if the neo-fascists get their druthers this sort of thing would be perfectly legal.
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Old 24th November 2022, 01:46 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There's no evidence they had any issue automatically renewing his contract before.

What changed? They realized he is white? Seems so.

Way down in the Chronicle story, there's this:
Quote:
Years ago, the city stated its official policy to move toward the new form of voting, where anyone could look at the code that tabulates elections, to save money and increase transparency. But California’s secretary of state hasn’t yet approved any such voting system, and the elections department doesn’t have the expertise or budget to develop or contract its own and try to get it approved, Arntz said.

Multiple open-source voting advocates who gave public comment during last week’s meeting criticized Arntz for not more aggressively pushing open-source voting, with one saying he had a “predisposition to the legacy system.”

Jerdonek said the move to open up the selection process was not related to open-source voting, for which he did not blame the department or Arntz. Dai also denied the move was motivated by recent disagreements between Arntz and the commission about how long to contract with the existing provider, Dominion Voting Systems.
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...b-17602545.php

It might actually be a policy dispute, and the diversity thing might be a smokescreen to open the contract to new applicants.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:29 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It might actually be a policy dispute, and the diversity thing might be a smokescreen to open the contract to new applicants.

"It's not your performance, it's your race" would have to be the dumbest smokescreen ever.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Way down in the Chronicle story, there's this:

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...b-17602545.php

It might actually be a policy dispute, and the diversity thing might be a smokescreen to open the contract to new applicants.
People here can rationalize this after the fact all they want.

From that same article:

Quote:
Commissioners made the decision not because Arntz is doing a bad job, they said, but because they wanted to give a chance for people of all backgrounds to apply.

Our decision wasn’t about your performance, but after twenty years we wanted to take action on the City’s racial equity plan and give people an opportunity to compete for a leadership position,” Jerdonek wrote in an email Monday to Arntz. “We also wanted to allow enough time for a fair and equitable process and conduct as broad a search as possible.”
There's more about how his job performance and the elections he handled were run perfectly every time "without a hitch". This was 100% racially motivated as far as I can tell. It's what they said. If it wasn't someone sure screwed up!

If these were Republicans we'd accept the racial story without missing a beat.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:40 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There's no evidence they had any issue automatically renewing his contract before.

What changed? They realized he is white? Seems so.
Money. They wanted to lower the rate and save money. As I said above, this is an excuse to surreptitiously lower the contract rate.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:42 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Money. They wanted to lower the rate and save money. As I said above, this is an excuse to surreptitiously lower the contract rate.
Then why bring up race? Because minorities should be paid less? They got caught with their pants down and now they're trying to wiggle them back up before anyone notices. They can lower the rate if they want. It's just excuses, excuses they haven't even made themselves.
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Old 24th November 2022, 03:45 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Money. They wanted to lower the rate and save money. As I said above, this is an excuse to surreptitiously lower the contract rate.

Why are you theorizing this? Would you be doing the same if he were black and they made this announcement? Seriously.

It has been said that affirmative action programs amount to legislated racism. I'm not going to go that far, but this event is literally the embodiment of that notion.
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:11 PM   #71
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Republicans in some city: "We have a Mexican guy as election commissioner and we want some diversity in these positions so we are not renewing his contract, though he's free to reapply.

No Democrat ever: "It's obviously not about race. If he is no longer Mexican at that time he may be able to get his job back. De nada!"
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Old 24th November 2022, 04:11 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Why are you theorizing this? Would you be doing the same if he were black and they made this announcement? Seriously.

It has been said that affirmative action programs amount to legislated racism. I'm not going to go that far, but this event is literally the embodiment of that notion.
yea, if it was 20 years doing the same contract position I would also question it the same.
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Old 24th November 2022, 05:03 PM   #73
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I hope this guy files a federal lawsuit very quickly. SF will obviously settle as they clearly ****** up big time.

Nobody should have to reapply for a long-term job just because of the color of their skin.

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Old 24th November 2022, 05:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I hope this guy files a federal lawsuit very quickly. SF will obviously settle as they clearly ****** up big time
They are probably fine because it is an expiring contract.
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Old 24th November 2022, 06:35 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Then why bring up race? Because minorities should be paid less? They got caught with their pants down and now they're trying to wiggle them back up before anyone notices. They can lower the rate if they want. It's just excuses, excuses they haven't even made themselves.
It's a front. They just want to vacate the position and refill it without having to negotiate with or consider renewing the current, expensive incumbent.

Also, it was a silly idea. They should have just been up front about the rate reduction and see if he wanted to live with it.

An alternative I have seen before is they have a new/different contractor whom they want in that position now. Possibly a kickback. So they need to get rid of the incumbent but in the nicest possible way. Simple idea: at the end of the contract, make it impossible for him to meet the "new" criteria.

Just remember: contractors are utterly and immediately expendable in the eyes of business. There is zero loyalty given for exemplary services rendered, even if it has been for many years. Here's your final check, byeeee!
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Old 24th November 2022, 07:57 PM   #76
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If this isn't a sign the Apocalypse is upon us, I don't know what is.
Yeah, I know. I'd rather have a root canal but honesty requires it.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:00 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
There's no evidence they had any issue automatically renewing his contract before.

What changed? They realized he is white? Seems so.
That is my problem with this. His contract was renewed four times already because they were happy with his performance, and nothing seems to have changed regarding that.
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Old 24th November 2022, 08:15 PM   #78
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That is my problem with this. His contract was renewed four times already because they were happy with his performance, and nothing seems to have changed regarding that.
Most of them were not there 5 years ago
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Old 24th November 2022, 09:20 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
"It's not your performance, it's your race" would have to be the dumbest smokescreen ever.
Except that if they tried to claim it was his performance, they would have to document it with specifics, and they can't. Announcing "We want to give everybody a chance" is a policy decision.

And I'm not sure it's a bad policy decision. It's not a civil service job. Should anybody own a government contract forever? Maybe he is the best guy. Or maybe somebody else will have new ideas, or work for less, or bring something different to the table. Maybe his assistants or deputies will apply. Awarding a contract without competition can cause problems, too.
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Old 24th November 2022, 09:26 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Except that if they tried to claim it was his performance, they would have to document it with specifics, and they can't. Announcing "We want to give everybody a chance" is a policy decision.

And I'm not sure it's a bad policy decision. It's not a civil service job. Should anybody own a government contract forever? Maybe he is the best guy. Or maybe somebody else will have new ideas, or work for less, or bring something different to the table. Maybe his assistants or deputies will apply. Awarding a contract without competition can cause problems, too.

Laughable.

Why must we stretch so hard to justify this? I hope we can start kicking those damn blacks out, and publicly announcing it is solely because they aren't the right color...

(ridiculous...but apparently this is how far some are willing to go to justify kicking a white out of a job, just based on their skin color)
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