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Old 25th May 2022, 08:28 AM   #81
Brainster
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If I had contempt for you, I wouldn't have bothered to engage. You made a request. I gave an answer. A dramatic turn to the left has promise because feckless centrism isn't working. Shooting the messenger won't explain why you can't win an election even with actual literal crooks and fascists as opponents. People don't want to vote for your candidates and policies. Why do you think that is?
Mostly because they sense that your candidates are lying about their policies. I get it; the Left is convinced that the American people are already where they are and so they push for the extreme left option. On abortion, the Left sees polling that says overturning Roe is unpopular, and so what becomes the position that they demand the Democrats defend? Unrestricted abortion up until birth, an even more unpopular position. The actual Democratic politicos may or may not agree with that position (I suspect most agree), but they know the polling and so they try to finesse the issue with "safe, legal and rare," formulations, which ends up satisfying nobody, but may actually get them elected.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:38 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Wow. Congratulations. Major applause.

You managed to create a post which is completely useless and totally misses the point.

Nobody (well, except for a few malcontents and trolls) is denying Trump was a conartist/adulterer/etc. Heck, you could have also thrown in racist and serial liar in there too. But the issue is "should a party push moderate or extreme policies". Issues like "is the candidate a con-artist" have nothing to do with whether they are moderate or extreme in their positions.

Heck, if anything you've actually proven my point... Trump has shown "you can be the biggest scumbag that ever entered politics, but as long as your policies are more moderate than your opponents you have a shot at winning".
BUilding the Wall and having mexico pay for it is a moderate position now?

Trump is hard to pin down because he really had no policies, when your big policy is calling mexicans rapists and demanding a pointless wall will be built, something his supporters claimed was only a metaphor not a real physical wall like he tried to build.

What is your basis for claiming that he was more moderate than Clinton?
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:18 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Mostly because they sense that your candidates are lying about their policies. I get it; the Left is convinced that the American people are already where they are and so they push for the extreme left option. On abortion, the Left sees polling that says overturning Roe is unpopular, and so what becomes the position that they demand the Democrats defend? Unrestricted abortion up until birth, an even more unpopular position. The actual Democratic politicos may or may not agree with that position (I suspect most agree), but they know the polling and so they try to finesse the issue with "safe, legal and rare," formulations, which ends up satisfying nobody, but may actually get them elected.
This is false. Why are you repeating this falsehood? I can guess: It doesn't matter how many times you hear that's a lie, you prefer it, prefer to believe the Democrats are evil. So you ignore the facts and favor your distorted view.

IT IS A LIE THAT DEMOCRATS, ANY OF THEM, AGREE ABORTION UP TO BIRTH IS THEIR POSITION!

Think about how stupid the concept even is. Do you honestly believe Democrats agree a woman should be able to order a full term infant killed? What doctor would kill a full term infant?

IT'S NOT JUST A LIE, IT'S A STUPID ILLOGICAL LIE. STOP REPEATING IT.
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Old 25th May 2022, 09:47 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is false. Why are you repeating this falsehood? I can guess: It doesn't matter how many times you hear that's a lie, you prefer it, prefer to believe the Democrats are evil. So you ignore the facts and favor your distorted view.

IT IS A LIE THAT DEMOCRATS, ANY OF THEM, AGREE ABORTION UP TO BIRTH IS THEIR POSITION!

Think about how stupid the concept even is. Do you honestly believe Democrats agree a woman should be able to order a full term infant killed? What doctor would kill a full term infant?

IT'S NOT JUST A LIE, IT'S A STUPID ILLOGICAL LIE. STOP REPEATING IT.
Well, it'd be my position, mostly because it's so unlikely to happen without a good reason that forcing the patient and doctor to provide justification should constitute an undue burden, but also to drag the Overton Window back a bit more to the realm of sanity.

But really I (like most people) would have settled for federal legislation protecting abortion rights at all. Legislation which we don't have because of a single Democrat who voted it down. I don't remember who it was, probably one of those extremist militant leftists who are dragging the party into stagnation with their inability to compromise that I hear so much about during primary seasons. They seem like the kind to pull a stunt like that at the expense of womens' bodily autonomy.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yup, lost tribe school of politics...which has never worked.
No lost tribe. These are the backbone of the progressive labor coalition that became Reagan Democrats then made Perot viable and then drifted into Tea Party politics and broke hard for Trump.

West Virginia is barely a generation removed from having a legislature with a Democratic supermajority and regularly sending what today would be progressive democrats to congress. Towards the end Robert Byrd was carrying an A+ rating from the NAACP and usually winning general elections by 30+ points.

This isn't rocket science. The perception is that the Democrats turned on Labor during the Clinton administration and have done nothing to address it while leaking votes in key states. Trump exploited that perception.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:33 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
No lost tribe. These are the backbone of the progressive labor coalition that became Reagan Democrats then made Perot viable and then drifted into Tea Party politics and broke hard for Trump.

West Virginia is barely a generation removed from having a legislature with a Democratic supermajority and regularly sending what today would be progressive democrats to congress. Towards the end Robert Byrd was carrying an A+ rating from the NAACP and usually winning general elections by 30+ points.

This isn't rocket science. The perception is that the Democrats turned on Labor during the Clinton administration and have done nothing to address it while leaking votes in key states. Trump exploited that perception.
There is some irony to hearing these glib truisms trotted out, as if the last decade at least hasn't shown that Clinton style neoliberal politics have absolutely run their course and are increasingly non-viable. Then again, the levels of denialism that was employed to disperse blame for the historically embarrassing loss of Hillary in 2016 shows that there are some conclusions that this element of the party are not willing to accept.

Don't get me wrong, the party elite are doing a fantastic job white-knuckle gripping onto power and delaying the coming change of guard, but the high water mark of their brand of politics is well behind them.

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Old 25th May 2022, 10:38 AM   #87
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Thing is, other than the nativism and racism, Trumpism has more in common with progressivism than the conservatism of 10 years ago, rhetorically anyway. Its all about defending the the little guy from the elites in Washington, New York, and LA.

While in office, trump mostly just did things republicans wanted regardless. Well, what little he actually accomplished anyway.
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:49 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post

Don't get me wrong, the party elite are doing a fantastic job white-knuckle gripping onto power and delaying the coming change of guard, but the high water mark of their brand of politics is well behind them.
I live in a hell where political reality is a battle between "people with Facebook brain" and "people with The West Wing brain."
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Old 25th May 2022, 10:57 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Thing is, other than the nativism and racism, Trumpism has more in common with progressivism than the conservatism of 10 years ago, rhetorically anyway. Its all about defending the the little guy from the elites in Washington, New York, and LA.

While in office, trump mostly just did things republicans wanted regardless. Well, what little he actually accomplished anyway.
It's populism. The core elements are labor/economic justice, anti-elitism, and nativism. In descending order.

It is just wild how badly the Dems have botched the first two. I left this area back when it was still solidly progressive and returned during the dawn of Trump. It's just jarring. Like some weird zombie utopia where people who were once turning over delivery trucks during strikes are now mad that rich people have to pay taxes.

Lost tribe tho...
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Old 25th May 2022, 01:23 PM   #90
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Wow, some "Progressives" live in a bubble almost as bad as those the Trumpsters live in.
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Old 25th May 2022, 02:05 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Wow, some "Progressives" live in a bubble almost as bad as those the Trumpsters live in.
If you are referring to me you may want to elaborate. I'm not real sure how living in an area that went 70% for Trump and interfacing with a broad cross section of the population on a daily basis constitutes a progressive bubble.
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Old 25th May 2022, 02:19 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is false. Why are you repeating this falsehood? I can guess: It doesn't matter how many times you hear that's a lie, you prefer it, prefer to believe the Democrats are evil. So you ignore the facts and favor your distorted view.

IT IS A LIE THAT DEMOCRATS, ANY OF THEM, AGREE ABORTION UP TO BIRTH IS THEIR POSITION!

Think about how stupid the concept even is. Do you honestly believe Democrats agree a woman should be able to order a full term infant killed? What doctor would kill a full term infant?

IT'S NOT JUST A LIE, IT'S A STUPID ILLOGICAL LIE. STOP REPEATING IT.
I'd say there's at least one. A former friend of mine, that's a hyper-liberal, felt, openly, that abortion should be legal up to 33 months. Yes, I wrote that right, up to two years of age. "I don't think I was really what I'd call self aware until I was at least two, so what difference would it make?", was his quote. He then started in about how it'd have been better had we aborted my autistic son if we'd have known how he'd be... And that's when I asked him to leave.
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Old 25th May 2022, 02:38 PM   #93
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The biggest problem the Dems have is the trip to the local grocery store.
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Old 25th May 2022, 05:57 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is false. Why are you repeating this falsehood? I can guess: It doesn't matter how many times you hear that's a lie, you prefer it, prefer to believe the Democrats are evil. So you ignore the facts and favor your distorted view.

IT IS A LIE THAT DEMOCRATS, ANY OF THEM, AGREE ABORTION UP TO BIRTH IS THEIR POSITION!

Think about how stupid the concept even is. Do you honestly believe Democrats agree a woman should be able to order a full term infant killed? What doctor would kill a full term infant?

IT'S NOT JUST A LIE, IT'S A STUPID ILLOGICAL LIE. STOP REPEATING IT.
And of course immediately somebody shows up to say it is their position, just like the last time I brought up this topic and you started shouting me down. Here's a Pew poll which says that 19% of Americans feel abortion should always be legal with no exceptions. Scrolling down further the partisan breakdown is 6% of Republicans and 30% of Democrats. Now it certainly does appear that there is some hesitancy when people are asked whether the stage of the pregnancy matters; here only 13% of Democrats hold firm and say no, it does not matter, so I guess quite a few of the legal with no exceptions crowd haven't really thought things through. But regardless that's somewhere between 1/8th and 1/3rd of all Democrats, and if we click through to further breakdowns, you'll see that among those who describe themselves as very liberal, 42% say legal with no exceptions.

ETA: And I certainly don't believe the Democrats are evil. That kind of demonizing works for the rubes (in both parties). Most members of both parties want what's best for the country; they just have sincere disagreements as to what needs to be fixed and how to fix it.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:11 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Well, it'd be my position, mostly because it's so unlikely to happen without a good reason that forcing the patient and doctor to provide justification should constitute an undue burden, but also to drag the Overton Window back a bit more to the realm of sanity.

But really I (like most people) would have settled for federal legislation protecting abortion rights at all. Legislation which we don't have because of a single Democrat who voted it down. I don't remember who it was, probably one of those extremist militant leftists who are dragging the party into stagnation with their inability to compromise that I hear so much about during primary seasons. They seem like the kind to pull a stunt like that at the expense of womens' bodily autonomy.
But it would never work that way. Yes doctors will deliver a near term infant if either the mother or the infant were in trouble. You'd either do a c-section, especially if the infant was in trouble, or one might try to induce labor.

I'm sorry but it is an incredibly ignorant belief that any near or full term viable infant would be killed in an 'abortion'.

If you have an aborted infant in the very beginning of the third trimester that would require a million+ dollar resuscitation and it was an abortion like Dr Tiller did, and this was a mother like a 12 yr old who was impregnated by a relative, then the decision might be to not make any live saving interventions. The infant would die a natural death.

Even that is incredibly rare and the reasons would matter. And it wouldn't ever be done on a near term infant.

If OTOH you have a medical reason to terminate a pregnancy early, those million+ dollar resuscitations are usually tried if the infant has a chance at survival.

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Old 25th May 2022, 08:16 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
I'd say there's at least one. A former friend of mine, that's a hyper-liberal, felt, openly, that abortion should be legal up to 33 months. Yes, I wrote that right, up to two years of age. "I don't think I was really what I'd call self aware until I was at least two, so what difference would it make?", was his quote. He then started in about how it'd have been better had we aborted my autistic son if we'd have known how he'd be... And that's when I asked him to leave.
What someone claims to support doesn't make it real.

What you are saying is you had a very ignorant friend who spouted a very ignorant belief.
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Old 25th May 2022, 08:23 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And of course immediately somebody shows up to say it is their position, just like the last time I brought up this topic and you started shouting me down. Here's a Pew poll which says that 19% of Americans feel abortion should always be legal with no exceptions. Scrolling down further the partisan breakdown is 6% of Republicans and 30% of Democrats. Now it certainly does appear that there is some hesitancy when people are asked whether the stage of the pregnancy matters; here only 13% of Democrats hold firm and say no, it does not matter, so I guess quite a few of the legal with no exceptions crowd haven't really thought things through. But regardless that's somewhere between 1/8th and 1/3rd of all Democrats, and if we click through to further breakdowns, you'll see that among those who describe themselves as very liberal, 42% say legal with no exceptions.

ETA: And I certainly don't believe the Democrats are evil. That kind of demonizing works for the rubes (in both parties). Most members of both parties want what's best for the country; they just have sincere disagreements as to what needs to be fixed and how to fix it.
So if some Rump cultist says they think all progressives should be shot (some of them openly call for executions) what does that even mean? Does it mean that will make it to the party platform as a goal?

Are we talking about reality here or just ignorant fantasies? Because there is a whole slough of ignorant beliefs in the alt-right world. Should we bring those up when someone spouts they think abortion is OK with a viable near term infant? That abortion is not going to happen.

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Old 25th May 2022, 08:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
If you are referring to me you may want to elaborate. I'm not real sure how living in an area that went 70% for Trump and interfacing with a broad cross section of the population on a daily basis constitutes a progressive bubble.
You're talking to somebody whose ultimate desire is for the Democrats to be tricked into letting the Republicans pick their candidate(s) for them again. To that end, no amount of factual inaccuracy, even complete reversal from reality, is too great. What wins is bound to lose, what loses is bound to win, the most popular political positions are just a freakish fringe, there's a vast Lost Tribe Of The Middle who's just bound to finally magically show up in the voting for once any year now, black is white, up is down, purple is supersonic... there are no limits.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:03 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
You're talking to somebody whose ultimate desire is for the Democrats to be tricked into letting the Republicans pick their candidate(s) for them again. To that end, no amount of factual inaccuracy, even complete reversal from reality, is too great. What wins is bound to lose, what loses is bound to win, the most popular political positions are just a freakish fringe, there's a vast Lost Tribe Of The Middle who's just bound to finally magically show up in the voting for once any year now, black is white, up is down, purple is supersonic... there are no limits.
I saw an apt comparison to late stage Soviet Union. Everyone in the country knows all our systems are totally broken and not to expect anything positive from the state. The only people who are under the delusion that things are ok are the tiny minority of geriatric elites that run things who are sleepwalking the state into collapse.

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Old 26th May 2022, 05:10 AM   #100
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I do like the fact that the idea of Trump as "Kingmaker" took such a big hit. Hope it's a trend and not fluke.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:11 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do like the fact that the idea of Trump as "Kingmaker" too such a big hit. Hope it's a trend and not fluke.
I imagine this may be a signal to would-be other contenders that running in the GOP primary against him is perhaps more viable than broadly believed. DeSantis surely will have taken notice.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:24 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
But it would never work that way. Yes doctors will deliver a near term infant if either the mother or the infant were in trouble. You'd either do a c-section, especially if the infant was in trouble, or one might try to induce labor.

I'm sorry but it is an incredibly ignorant belief that any near or full term viable infant would be killed in an 'abortion'.

If you have an aborted infant in the very beginning of the third trimester that would require a million+ dollar resuscitation and it was an abortion like Dr Tiller did, and this was a mother like a 12 yr old who was impregnated by a relative, then the decision might be to not make any live saving interventions. The infant would die a natural death.

Even that is incredibly rare and the reasons would matter. And it wouldn't ever be done on a near term infant.

If OTOH you have a medical reason to terminate a pregnancy early, those million+ dollar resuscitations are usually tried if the infant has a chance at survival.
If it never happens then why make it illegal? I can give you a good reason not to make it illegal - the definition of "late term" gets salami sliced back into a de facto abortion ban. In many states where abortion is technically legal (for the moment), it's highly possible to pass the window before you even realize you're pregnant.

The way I see it, if your argument for abortion rights rests on bodily autonomy, then as long as a woman is hosting a parasite it should be entirely her call what is to be done with it. Trying to add exceptions you agree with just opens the door for ones you don't.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:27 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I imagine this may be a signal to would-be other contenders that running in the GOP primary against him is perhaps more viable than broadly believed. DeSantis surely will have taken notice.
I think it depends on the districts...places with predominantly trumplican electorate will stick with any turd the orange bloat will endorse.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:51 AM   #104
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Trump is like Covid. He is going to linger in there till Nov 2024. Then we are done with him, but the symptoms of trumpism will now hang in there for 20 years.
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Old 26th May 2022, 05:58 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Trump is like Covid. He is going to linger in there till Nov 2024. Then we are done with him, but the symptoms of trumpism will now hang in there for 20 years.
and Don jr. is Monkeypox
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Old 26th May 2022, 06:16 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If it never happens then why make it illegal? I can give you a good reason not to make it illegal - the definition of "late term" gets salami sliced back into a de facto abortion ban. In many states where abortion is technically legal (for the moment), it's highly possible to pass the window before you even realize you're pregnant.

The way I see it, if your argument for abortion rights rests on bodily autonomy, then as long as a woman is hosting a parasite it should be entirely her call what is to be done with it. Trying to add exceptions you agree with just opens the door for ones you don't.
The whole "never" argument is a unnecessary concession anyway.

The same people running around thinking that school shootings are a deeply unfortunate part of the price of freedom to own guns are obsessed with the near zero possibility that some sociopaths would agree to abort a viable late term fetus and are willing to flush reproductive rights down the toilet ignoring the cost of doing that in both lives and misery.
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Old 26th May 2022, 07:34 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do like the fact that the idea of Trump as "Kingmaker" took such a big hit. Hope it's a trend and not fluke.
Big winner on Tuesday was Ron DeSantis. Do you think Democrats will breathe a sigh of relief that democracy has been saved, or will they pivot to DeSantis is the new Hitler? I know which way I'd bet.
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Old 26th May 2022, 07:44 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
So if some Rump cultist says they think all progressives should be shot (some of them openly call for executions) what does that even mean? Does it mean that will make it to the party platform as a goal?
I assume that it means that they think all progressives should be shot, what do you think it means? And so far it hasn't made it to the party platform.

Are we talking about reality here or just ignorant fantasies? Because there is a whole slough of ignorant beliefs in the alt-right world. Should we bring those up when someone spouts they think abortion is OK with a viable near term infant? That abortion is not going to happen.


Dodging noted. Your claim was

Quote:
"IT IS A LIE THAT DEMOCRATS, ANY OF THEM, AGREE ABORTION UP TO BIRTH IS THEIR POSITION!"
I showed that in fact a large percentage of the base supports abortion on demand with no restrictions at all. Now, you may claim that these folks haven't thought things through carefully and I would tend to agree. And you may claim that no abortion provider would consider a late term abortion except in extreme circumstances, and there I might tend to be a little more skeptical.
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Old 26th May 2022, 09:43 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The biggest problem the Dems have is the trip to the local grocery store.
One of the many issues with American politics is to give the current POTUS(and by extension their party) way to much credit/blame for the current economy. Really any is too much.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I do like the fact that the idea of Trump as "Kingmaker" took such a big hit. Hope it's a trend and not fluke.
God, I hope he's fading fast. He's still the front runner for the GOP nomination for the presidency though.

Regarding the discussion between Skepticginger and Brainster, always a mistake to say "nobody believes....." There's always someone and generally a lot more than you expect.

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Old 26th May 2022, 09:55 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post


God, I hope he's fading fast. He's still the front runner for the GOP nomination for the presidency though.
I don't really see much cause for celebration. The people in competition are as bad, if not worse. The overton window has shifted, and it's not going back even if Trump is out of the game.
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
...
The way I see it, if your argument for abortion rights rests on bodily autonomy, then as long as a woman is hosting a parasite it should be entirely her call what is to be done with it. Trying to add exceptions you agree with just opens the door for ones you don't.
You can imagine whatever you want.

Viable near term infants are delivered when it is necessary to end the pregnancy.

The cry that the 'pro-choice people believe one can abort a viable near term infant' is a political message made purposefully to make the pro-choice people look unreasonable.

Repeating the anti-abortion dishonest message for them needs to stop. Use your head.

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Old 26th May 2022, 10:06 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't really see much cause for celebration. The people in competition are as bad, if not worse. The overton window has shifted, and it's not going back even if Trump is out of the game.
Agreed. Using Brainster's DeSantis example, where Trump was incompetent evil, DeSantis is more competent evil. For some undefined reason, though, because people said Trump was bad for democracy, saying DeSantis was as bad or worse is ... wrong? Or something? It's not like DeSantis' whole brand is how Trumpy he is without some of the bumbling or needing 2 hands to lift a glass of water ...
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I assume that it means that they think all progressives should be shot, what do you think it means? And so far it hasn't made it to the party platform.

Are we talking about reality here or just ignorant fantasies? Because there is a whole slough of ignorant beliefs in the alt-right world. Should we bring those up when someone spouts they think abortion is OK with a viable near term infant? That abortion is not going to happen.


Dodging noted. Your claim was



I showed that in fact a large percentage of the base supports abortion on demand with no restrictions at all. Now, you may claim that these folks haven't thought things through carefully and I would tend to agree. And you may claim that no abortion provider would consider a late term abortion except in extreme circumstances, and there I might tend to be a little more skeptical.
That's not a dodge

It's bringing to the attention here a propaganda message intended to bring those single issue anti-abortion voters to the polls.

If you want to repeat that propaganda it's because you want GOP candidates to win.

For people who don't want GOP candidates to win, consider what marketing propaganda is all about. Arguing over some BS that is not going to happen means a person here who wants the Democratic candidates to win should recognize they've been duped.

But I suspect most of the people here repeating that falsehood are GOP supporters.
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Old 26th May 2022, 10:25 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Agreed. Using Brainster's DeSantis example, where Trump was incompetent evil, DeSantis is more competent evil. For some undefined reason, though, because people said Trump was bad for democracy, saying DeSantis was as bad or worse is ... wrong? Or something? It's not like DeSantis' whole brand is how Trumpy he is without some of the bumbling or needing 2 hands to lift a glass of water ...
I mean, him and the rest of the Florida GQP in the legislature have been openly dismissing popular referendums such as restoring voting rights to felons and a $15 minimum wage for years without any consequences.
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Old 26th May 2022, 11:03 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can imagine whatever you want.

Viable near term infants are delivered when it is necessary to end the pregnancy.

The cry that the 'pro-choice people believe one can abort a viable near term infant' is a political message made purposefully to make the pro-choice people look unreasonable.

Repeating the anti-abortion dishonest message for them needs to stop. Use your head.
Do you think what you or I say matters at all to what they think of us? It does not. There's no amount of preemptive compromise you can do that will be satisfactory enough to pass unchallenged. You could have the most watered-down, ineffective, "reasonable" argument in the entire world and Fox News will call you a baby-killing monster anyway, because that's the idea they're selling. You're just the strawman, the effigy. They aren't actually listening to you. Why sacrifice your moral integrity for the hope of impressing people with neither morals nor integrity?

[ETA] I does make me wonder who exactly the last honest Republican was. Maybe McCain? He had fibre, even if he was willing to set it aside most of the time.

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Old 26th May 2022, 11:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Do you think what you or I say matters at all to what they think of us? It does not. There's no amount of preemptive compromise you can do that will be satisfactory enough to pass unchallenged. You could have the most watered-down, ineffective, "reasonable" argument in the entire world and Fox News will call you a baby-killing monster anyway, because that's the idea they're selling. You're just the strawman, the effigy. They aren't actually listening to you. Why sacrifice your moral integrity for the hope of impressing people with neither morals nor integrity?

[ETA] I does make me wonder who exactly the last honest Republican was. Maybe McCain? He had fibre, even if he was willing to set it aside most of the time.
It matters because however insignificant you think it is, it is part of amplifying political messaging.

There is more to political campaigning than convincing people of this or that. A big part of campaigning is marketing messages, especially to target markets. One such target market is the anti-abortion single issue voter. Messages like 'the pro-choice liberals are baby killers' gets to the core of those voters because they believe a fertilized egg is a viable infant.

But there are all kinds of people around the fringes of that core who are willing to let the pro-choice folks have abortions if they want them even if the fringe anti-abortion folks are against abortions for themselves. Those are the people who draw the line at aborting third trimester fetuses.

Why do you think the anti-abortionists promote the dishonest message the pro-choice people would kill near term viable infants?

They promote that message because it works. Anytime we repeat the false message on social media it amplifies that message.

You think you are merely stating some esoteric belief. Brainster uses your example to say, "See, that's what pro-choice people believe."You are amplifying an anti-abortion talking point.

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Old 26th May 2022, 12:30 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It matters because however insignificant you think it is, it is part of amplifying political messaging.

There is more to political campaigning than convincing people of this or that. A big part of campaigning is marketing messages, especially to target markets. One such target market is the anti-abortion single issue voter. Messages like 'the pro-choice liberals are baby killers' gets to the core of those voters because they believe a fertilized egg is a viable infant.

But there are all kinds of people around the fringes of that core who are willing to let the pro-choice folks have abortions if they want them even if the fringe anti-abortion folks are against abortions for themselves. Those are the people who draw the line at aborting third trimester fetuses.

Why do you think the anti-abortionists promote the dishonest message the pro-choice people would kill near term viable infants?

They promote that message because it works. Anytime we repeat the false message on social media it amplifies that message.

You think you are merely stating some esoteric belief. Brainster uses your example to say, "See, that's what pro-choice people believe."You are amplifying an anti-abortion talking point.
If you want to talk about political messaging, what kind of message do you think it sends that you let the political messaging dictate what you claim to believe in?
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Old 26th May 2022, 04:55 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
If you want to talk about political messaging, what kind of message do you think it sends that you let the political messaging dictate what you claim to believe in?
She's sort of proving my point that Democrats tend to dissemble about their real positions in the hopes of getting elected. And I do find it amusing that she thinks I'm doing it in an effort to rally all the single-issue anti-abortion zealots around this ghost forum. Lots and lots of them, I feel certain.
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Old 27th May 2022, 05:42 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
She's sort of proving my point that Democrats tend to dissemble about their real positions in the hopes of getting elected.
As generally true as this is we can't discount that for many of these Democrats the dissembled version is actually their political position. They are so wrapped up in the idea that compromise is wisdom that they've developed a moral compass that defines itself by what they think sounds reasonable to other people.

They've managed to turn compromise into a sort of fundamentalist cult when it is supposed to be a necessary evil to function in an ideologically diverse society.
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Old 27th May 2022, 07:44 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't really see much cause for celebration. The people in competition are as bad, if not worse. The overton window has shifted, and it's not going back even if Trump is out of the game.
Let me have a little optimism.
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