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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 132 77.19%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.34%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.96%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.51%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do you know what a hot take is? Because the OP asked for them
To answer your question 'No. I do not know what a hot take is.'

As a result, I looked up the term and here is what I found what "hot take" means:

: a quickly produced, strongly worded, and often deliberately provocative or sensational opinion or reaction (as in response to current news)

Well then, ...

Congratulations to you, because you managed to produce a hot take.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:13 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Precisely. And the standard Republican position is that Democrats are subject to the rule of law, Republicans are not.
Agreed. The whole "I'ma tough guy alpha male who lubricates my AR-15 with liberal tears" routine rolling right into the "My fees fees are hurt because the big mean liberals won't let me stage a coup" routine rolling right into the "Every single accusation I make, like literally every single one, is a confession" rolling right back to the beginning and starting anew is rather old and played out at this point.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:17 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
To answer your question 'No. I do not know what a hot take is.'

As a result, I looked up the term and here is what I found what "hot take" means:

: a quickly produced, strongly worded, and often deliberately provocative or sensational opinion or reaction (as in response to current news)

Well then, ...

Congratulations to you, because you managed to produce a hot take.
Thank you. And I would like you to respect the craft. The OP specifically asked for one, and I placed on myself the added difficulty of making it pro-trump.

It has a flaw. Some courts have stated that the destruction of records element of the law that covers violations of the PRA requires intent. But as that isn't universal, almost certainly anyone who did a stint in the white house has destroyed a single record on accident.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:17 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Hillary didn't actually do anything wrong. Trump did. This is not complicated. Do not pretend it is to manufacture a moral outage debate that isn't there.

If the Right and their apologists could pull themselves out of "I don't understand why being wrong/evil/lawbreaking is treated differently then being correct/not evil/law abiding. I mean is suuuuuuuuuuuch a double standard." that would be just super-duper.
Well, Clinton didn't do anything illegal. I think she certainly did something wrong.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:23 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Fat Orange Turd is up to his neck in criminality, and it seems like an enormous operation just to retrieve some stolen documents, so while I am adopting a wait and see position, I do suspect there is something else going on here, maybe as well as the obvious.
Perhaps when he pushed his ex-wife down the stairs he looted her body of the jewelry she was wearing. Finding the missing emeralds in his possession when the butler and maid both testified she was wearing them that evening...well, it doesn't take Peter Wimsey to figure that one out.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:26 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
All lies and nonsense struck out. And justice is blind, just like you are to reality. And before your inevitable attempt to drag me down the rabbit hole with you: You made the claim, prove it.
I don't know how you can look at a situation and be fine with the FBI going after egregious and purposeful violations of the law while ignoring those who make venial, accidental violations of the law while trying very hard to comply and call that justice.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:49 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
It was a beautiful raid. A tremendous raid. The best raid anyone has ever done.
I was just talking to a guy and he said "Sir, that was the most bigly raid ever."
Truly spectacular.
I found it delicious that CNN's Laura Coates unironically said "This is YUGE!" last night.

Btw, thank you for making this a separate thread, and with an unambiguous title. It certainly warrants (!) it.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:53 AM   #48
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Ya' gotta' ask why, if Trump's blameless as his supporters claim, he didn't straighten this whole matter out months ago.

If he didn't have materials he was not supposed to take home with him he could have established that fact.

If had taken home materials he shouldn't have he could done a "my bad" and returned the stuff.

The way he's acting makes him look guilty.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:57 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The likelihood that every single record in a 4 year span was properly handled, when an incredible amount of records are generated, is unlikely. Mistakes happen

ETA: your question is like asking for evidence that everyone speeds. The issue is the structure of speeding laws make it a certainty.
That's moving the goalposts. This is about material he took from the Whitehouse to his home.

So again - any evidence to back up your claim "...It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute..." ?
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:59 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That's moving the goalposts. This is about material he took from the Whitehouse to his home.
Except the presidential records law would apply to both actions, right? Since multiple goal posts are inside the same law, I can combine an egregious post with a minor one.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:59 AM   #51
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Anyone else ready with a slow golf clap if it turns out the raid was approved and carried out so quickly because of evidence obtained from Alex Jones' cell phone records?

I know that chances of that happening are less then my chances of winning the million dollar challenge, but still, beautifully ironic if turns out to be true.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:03 AM   #52
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Yeah the narrative irony of that would be just delish, I can't imagine something like hasn't been in the plans for a while. An event that happened a week ago, no matter how Earth shattering, probably didn't factor in.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:06 AM   #53
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I don't get bothered by republican hypocrisy...I just try to laugh it off.

I find it funny that the feature of Trump to many is his disdain for government regulation and that he isn't like anyone else....but also he fastidiously complied with records law.

You know who the remind me of? Neo Nazis. The ones who say obviously Hitler didn't hurt Jews and it is a Jewish conspiracy, but Hitler is still a hero to jew haters somehow.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:07 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
It's not just some documents. Trump is alleged to have taken documents that, by law, belong to the National Archives, including classified documents whose removal and retention is punishable by up to five years in prison.

People have been sentenced to substantial prison time for stealing unclassified documents from the National Archives:
  • Robert Bradford Murphy and Elizabeth Irene Murphy were both sentenced to ten years in federal prison.
  • Charles Merrill Mount was sentenced to five years.
  • Shawn Aubitz paid a $73,000 fine and served 21 months in prison.
  • Sandy Berger (who had been a National Security Advisor in the Clinton administration) paid a $50,000 fine and was sentenced to 100 hours of community service.
  • Howard Harner paid a $10,000 and was sentenced to two years in prison.
  • Denning McTague paid a $3000 fine and was sentenced to 15 months in prison.
  • Les Waffen was sentenced to 18 months.
  • Barry Landau was sentenced to 7 years in federal prison. His co-conspirator Jason Savedoff served one year and a day.
  • Antonin DeHays was sentenced to 364 days in prison and ordered to pay a $43,456.96 fine for stealing WWII memorabilia from the National Archives.
Good point. That said, as Ken White thinks it is unlikely to have triggered the search, I just wonder if it is solely about the documents or if they have probable cause for a deeper problem

Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
My hot take on this is that, since they never did raid Clinton's house, this pretty much proves that the FBI doesn't carry out politically-motivated raids. Because I'd bet good money that there was at least one moment where Trump demanded such a raid, and the FBI refused to do it without some actual evidence to support the need for a raid.

Considering how many times Trump actually did use his power to take revenge on those he imagined had wronged him, it's a safe bet he at least tried to do the same to Hillary.
Good point as well. Given that he even appointed the head of the FBI himself, you would think he would have at least had a chance. And now? His own FBI guy turns out to be.... DEEP STATE!!! OMG!!1!
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:07 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by azazal View Post
Anyone else ready with a slow golf clap if it turns out the raid was approved and carried out so quickly because of evidence obtained from Alex Jones' cell phone records?

I know that chances of that happening are less then my chances of winning the million dollar challenge, but still, beautifully ironic if turns out to be true.
Way ahead of you...

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I would love it if it had all come from the Alex Jones phone records!

I know, I know...

Meanwhile, some right-wingers are pointing out that the Clintons took furniture from the White House and haven't seen the FBI raid them to get that back yet!

I mean, that's a good point, right?
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:09 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah the narrative irony of that would be just delish, I can't imagine something like hasn't been in the plans for a while. An event that happened a week ago, no matter how Earth shattering, probably didn't factor in.
Way ahead of you too...

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oooh! Delicious irony if true.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:10 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Except the presidential records law would apply to both actions, right? Since multiple goal posts are inside the same law, I can combine an egregious post with a minor one.
From: Wikipedia
..."mens rea" is the mental element of a person's intention to commit a crime...
...
...the Supreme Court holds that required mens rea is an essential element of federal criminal offenses.


So from the looks of things, no.... an accidental "oops I was supposed to send this document to storage but put the wrong address on it" would probably not be considered a crime, whereas "I deliberately took this document home even though the rules say it should stay here" would be a crime.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:14 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Except the presidential records law would apply to both actions, right? Since multiple goal posts are inside the same law, I can combine an egregious post with a minor one.
So, imagine you are a copper on the side of the highway with a 70 mph speed limit, and you radar two cars, one going 74 mph and one going 120.

So, what are you going to do, flip a coin, if it's tails, pull over the one going 74?
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:16 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
So, imagine you are a copper on the side of the highway with a 70 mph speed limit, and you radar two cars, one going 74 mph and one going 120.

So, what are you going to do, flip a coin, if it's tails, pull over the one going 74?
Well, they would be the easier one to catch up to.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:20 AM   #60
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I recall one car company advertising itself that way on a radio ad. Cop: “I pulled you over cause that (car brand) is just to fast for me!”

This was during that period of time where cars tried to push how fast they were in tv and radio ads. The Car Talk guys specifically called these ads out.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:24 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
From: Wikipedia
..."mens rea" is the mental element of a person's intention to commit a crime...
...
...the Supreme Court holds that required mens rea is an essential element of federal criminal offenses.


So from the looks of things, no.... an accidental "oops I was supposed to send this document to storage but put the wrong address on it" would probably not be considered a crime, whereas "I deliberately took this document home even though the rules say it should stay here" would be a crime.
Yea, I mentioned that in post 43. One time it even came up in a destruction of records case and the court at that time required intent.

But definitely a rabbit hole of separation of powers I could argue if I wasn't making a take upon request
ETA: Also, we can remove accident, and replace and chose not to comply one time because it is a pain. That reduces the odds from almost a certainty, but probably captures the nature of things that occur regularly in organizations.

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Old 9th August 2022, 07:26 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Thank you. And I would like you to respect the craft. The OP specifically asked for one, and I placed on myself the added difficulty of making it pro-trump.

It has a flaw. Some courts have stated that the destruction of records element of the law that covers violations of the PRA requires intent. But as that isn't universal, almost certainly anyone who did a stint in the white house has destroyed a single record on accident.
Well, in case it missed your keen eye for detail, the documents that Trump took consist of 15 boxes of documents.

Trump did deliberately take all 15 boxes of documents in question,
Trump did deliberately transport said the 15 boxes of documents about 1000 miles away to his own home, and
Trump did deliberately keep possession of these 15 boxes of documents in his possession for nearly one year and eight months.

If Trump did somehow accidently and/or unintentionally take these 15 boxes of documents, then he could have easily returned them by now.

After all, Trump just made a trip to Washington, D.C. to speak at the CPAC event, so it is quite clear that Trump is perfectly able to get to Washington, D.C when he wants to do so.

All off these actions all clearly speak to Trump intending to break the law in regards to Trump stealing the documents.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:30 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The likelihood that every single record in a 4 year span was properly handled, when an incredible amount of records are generated, is unlikely. Mistakes happen

ETA: your question is like asking for evidence that everyone speeds. The issue is the structure of speeding laws make it a certainty.
And BTC is running away from the ball toward the goal post! He's grabbing hold of the base of the goal now! He's... He's... He's pulling it out of the ground...! Now he's running with it toward the ball!
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:35 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Except the presidential records law would apply to both actions, right? Since multiple goal posts are inside the same law, I can combine an egregious post with a minor one.
Strange you seem to have missed out the relevant part:

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The likelihood that every single record in a 4 year span was properly handled, when an incredible amount of records are generated, is unlikely. Mistakes happen

ETA: your question is like asking for evidence that everyone speeds. The issue is the structure of speeding laws make it a certainty.
That's moving the goalposts. This is about material he took from the Whitehouse to his home.

So again - any evidence to back up your claim "...It is almost certainly true that other presidents violated this statute..." ?
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:02 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah the narrative irony of that would be just delish, I can't imagine something like hasn't been in the plans for a while. An event that happened a week ago, no matter how Earth shattering, probably didn't factor in.
That Trump has been wiping his butt with every record based law on the books has been a sort of open secret for about five years now. Given the political sensitivity I'd put the over/under on the search warrant application exhibits/affidavits/etc. at about 1000 pages. It coming out that there is a 1000 pages of documentation is a nice round number that is going to land with anyone not deeply in the tank for Trump.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:04 AM   #66
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I really don't get the document thing. It's not 1975. Shred/burn the originals, if you are so hot to disappear them, after scanning them onto a thumb drive which can be easily hidden (not anywhere obvious like a safe) in case they might be of value later. You could effectively claim you made copies then, and you don't know anything about the fate of the originals.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:05 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
That Trump has been wiping his butt with every record based law on the books has been a sort of open secret for about five years now. Given the political sensitivity I'd put the over/under on the search warrant application exhibits/affidavits/etc. at about 1000 pages. It coming out that there is a 1000 pages of documentation is a nice round number that is going to land with anyone not deeply in the tank for Trump.
And almost none of those would be records he generated himself. Combined with not caring about the law, he did so very little work and took very few notes
. Probably drawing on a weather map with a sharpie is the most significant note he made?
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:09 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Ya' gotta' ask why, if Trump's blameless as his supporters claim, he didn't straighten this whole matter out months ago.

If he didn't have materials he was not supposed to take home with him he could have established that fact.

If had taken home materials he shouldn't have he could done a "my bad" and returned the stuff.

The way he's acting makes him look guilty.
That's the thing, the relevant agencies have bent over backward to give Trump and his cronies wiggle room to get out of these charges at every step. They specifically are trying to avoid the appearance of partisanship and preserve the dignity of the Office of POTUS.

Whatever happened yesterday was months in the making and the FBI most likely took every reasonable step to avoid it.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:11 AM   #69
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Because Trump's supporters are liars and don't actually think Trump is blameless, they just think he should be above the law.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:11 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I really don't get the document thing. It's not 1975. Shred/burn the originals, if you are so hot to disappear them, after scanning them onto a thumb drive which can be easily hidden (not anywhere obvious like a safe) in case they might be of value later. You could effectively claim you made copies then, and you don't know anything about the fate of the originals.
Ya, but, he's an idiot and wannabe mobster. He's surrounded himself with people who are more loyal than competent. Even if they knew what you are talking about, they wouldn't be able to communicate it to him.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:17 AM   #71
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Everything Trump does is a "I dare you stop me" flex. He's exactly the kind of person who would keep incriminating evidence around, because doing so makes him feel untouchable.

And again, as I keep pointing out, he's openly bragged about doing everything he's been accused of and he's faced exactly zero consequences so what exactly is supposed to put fear into the heart of Donald Trump is a mystery to me.

Okay so the safe contains a signed notarized document where he confesses to literally everything he's been accused of, pictures of him doing it, and the Editor's Copy of his new book "Donald Trump: I did absolutely everything you thought I did" and again the point I'm trying to make is... what would change?
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:18 AM   #72
Armitage72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I really don't get the document thing. It's not 1975. Shred/burn the originals, if you are so hot to disappear them, after scanning them onto a thumb drive which can be easily hidden (not anywhere obvious like a safe) in case they might be of value later. You could effectively claim you made copies then, and you don't know anything about the fate of the originals.

Law enforcement has been training dogs to sniff out hidden electronic storage media for a number of years. They're trained to recognize the smell of a chemical that coats memory chips to protect them from overheating. They're often used in child pornography investigations.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:38 AM   #73
slyjoe
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I really don't get the document thing. It's not 1975. Shred/burn the originals, if you are so hot to disappear them, after scanning them onto a thumb drive which can be easily hidden (not anywhere obvious like a safe) in case they might be of value later. You could effectively claim you made copies then, and you don't know anything about the fate of the originals.
Why do serial killers keep incriminating evidence? It's so they can relive the thrill later.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:46 AM   #74
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I'm waiting for someone other than a gossip rag to report it to fully present it as a fact, but there's reports that the FBI intentionally timed the raid so it would happen when Trump as not onsite.

Apparently nobody wanted an altercation between agents and the President, especially since apparently standard protocol is to cuff the person who owns the property being searched which would be something of a political hot potato.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:52 AM   #75
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The Republicans have fallen back on their standard...

The Republicans are openly no longer an organization that respects the law or intends to
follow it, therefore punishing us for breaking the law is nothing but a "political" act.

... routine.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:54 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm waiting for someone other than a gossip rag to report it to fully present it as a fact, but there's reports that the FBI intentionally timed the raid so it would happen when Trump as not onsite.
....
From other reports, the property is pretty much shut down over the summer and Trump spends most of his time in NJ. The FBI probably didn't have to wait in the bushes until he stepped out.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:56 AM   #77
Venom
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm waiting for someone other than a gossip rag to report it to fully present it as a fact, but there's reports that the FBI intentionally timed the raid so it would happen when Trump as not onsite.

Apparently nobody wanted an altercation between agents and the President, especially since apparently standard protocol is to cuff the person who owns the property being searched which would be something of a political hot potato.
Oh man... Part of me wants that to happen to see MAGA heads explode, but it's likely some could go full blown terrorist mode seeing their prophet in cuffs.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:57 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The de facto requirement for the stupid "Planet X" option turns every poll on this board into a joke.
Being a poll on the internet turns every poll on this board into a joke.
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Old 9th August 2022, 10:28 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't know how you can look at a situation and be fine with the FBI going after egregious and purposeful violations of the law while ignoring those who make venial, accidental violations of the law while trying very hard to comply and call that justice.
This is one of the most idiotic arguments you have ever made. I suppose murder and jaywalking should be treated equally in the eyes of the law? You truly have run out of anything worthwhile to say (of course, this assumes you have ever had anything worthwhile to say, which is very doubtful) and are now reduced to stretching for the silliest garbage because of your pathological need for attention! Go move some more goalposts.
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Old 9th August 2022, 10:32 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
That's the thing, the relevant agencies have bent over backward to give Trump and his cronies wiggle room to get out of these charges at every step. They specifically are trying to avoid the appearance of partisanship and preserve the dignity of the Office of POTUS.

Whatever happened yesterday was months in the making and the FBI most likely took every reasonable step to avoid it.
You have to also realize that a judge signed of on the search warrant. The FBI had to convince one, that a crime was committed, two they had a reasonable likelihood of finding evidence and three that they couldn't obtain the evidence any other way.
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