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View Poll Results: The raid was...
Absolutely a good thing - no question 132 77.19%
An outrage, a travesty - what about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? 4 2.34%
I'll wait before I make a judgement thank you. 29 16.96%
Mar-X-Lago! 6 3.51%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10th August 2022, 08:21 AM   #201
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Given that the Director of the FBI is a Trump appointee, and the Head of the DOJ a Biden appointee, at least the question of Partisanship should be irrelevant.
I'm not sure that the activities that call into question the integrity of the DoJ/FBI has been partisanship.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:32 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Link

I have mixed feelings about the news of the FBI raiding Trump's lair. I mean, the guy is a ******* of course, but it does not really have a "good look" vibe about it if it appears to be politically motivated. I think most people would have had a bad reaction if Trump's DOJ had sent the FBI to raid Hillary Clinton's house. But this thread from Ken White argues that the bar for getting this warrant is presumably high and he believes it will have passed the necessary oversight.


https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1556777965937037312

So what do you think? Give me your hot takes!

Is this a low-down dirty tricks maneuvre by the radical woke agenda or something?

Is this perfectly above board?

Is it way past time that this happened?

Or, are you one of those feeble-minded people who want to wait for the "dust to settle" and for "evidence" and "reason" before coming to a judgment?

Let's have a heated debate!

As far as I'm concerned, Donald Trump lost any entitlement to deference as a former President when he staged his failed coup attempt on Jan. 6. While on general principles, I don't think it's a great thing for members of the previous administration to be prosecuted every time there is a change in the party of the incoming President, there have to be limits or the President is truly above the law.

If Trump is indeed prosecuted, will the incoming Republican (should they win in 2024 or 2028) prosecute Biden on some -- uh, trumped up -- charges as a tit for tat? Very likely, but that will be on them. That seems to be the level to which politics, especially as practiced by Republicans has descended in this country. But declining to prosecute Trump for his insurrection will make things worse, not better.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:42 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm not sure that the activities that call into question the integrity of the DoJ/FBI has been partisanship.
you suggested that the FBI can't be trusted, given its history.

What you mean, I think, is that it is regularly politicized - which can't really be the case here.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:43 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
If Trump is indeed prosecuted, will the incoming Republican (should they win in 2024 or 2028) prosecute Biden on some -- uh, trumped up -- charges as a tit for tat? Very likely, but that will be on them. That seems to be the level to which politics, especially as practiced by Republicans has descended in this country. But declining to prosecute Trump for his insurrection will make things worse, not better.

It's just like Trump's repeated claims that if he were impeached then every President would be impeached as soon as the opposing party controlled Congress. He phrased it as if it were a warning, but it was clearly a threat.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:43 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump supporters have to be the most self-unaware people there are.

James Comey, Andrew McCabe, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell et al might like to have a word with Cruz.
It's not as if it is novel or unusual for the MAGA crowd to complain bitterly that Democrats are doing exactly what they did or are currently doing.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:43 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Given that the Director of the FBI is a Trump appointee, and the Head of the DOJ a Biden appointee, at least the question of Partisanship should be irrelevant.
You almost had me for a second.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:45 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Does anyone else recall all of the bitching and complaining that the POS Trump did concerning the private e-mail server that Hillary Clinton used while she was Secretary of State?

He was endlessly chanting "Lock her Up! Lock her Up!".

Also, since that POS Trump always likes to say that he is on the side of "Law and Order", then this legal search should be no problem for him, assuming that he actually does support "Law and Order".
Law and Order is for black people, illegal immigrants and Democrats, not for white Republicans. White Republicans can do no wrong.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:51 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
you suggested that the FBI can't be trusted, given its history.

What you mean, I think, is that it is regularly politicized - which can't really be the case here.
I don't think their failures are ultimately political. Monitoring Americans, trying entrapment against Muslims, giving Epstein a sweet deal. I wouldnt describe that as politics as much as a faux law and order worldview.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:57 AM   #209
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:59 AM   #210
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It's possibly worth noting that 'raid' may not be the best term for this incident. The FBI turned up and executed a legal search warrant. They didn't smash down doors and cuff people.

No biggie, but it was - as these things go - probably not half as exciting as some reports make it out to be. A load of guys in suits wandering about and looking at paperwork is a fairly tame 'raid'
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:05 AM   #211
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Okay, GOP, you win: we should arrest whoever appointed FBI Director Christopher Wray.
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:14 AM   #212
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Breaking: FBI baffled. Only item in Trump's safe was a copy of the 1950-2000 Grays Sports Almanac.
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:34 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
If Trump is indeed prosecuted, will the incoming Republican (should they win in 2024 or 2028) prosecute Biden on some -- uh, trumped up -- charges as a tit for tat? Very likely, but that will be on them. That seems to be the level to which politics, especially as practiced by Republicans has descended in this country. But declining to prosecute Trump for his insurrection will make things worse, not better.
There are people reluctant to confront lawlessness because they fear if they do the lawless will engage in lawlessness in response to being confronted. Which is all sorts of messed up.

It's hard not to call that nihilism. The only way that makes sense is to strip it of all moral context and adopt an extreme moral relevance where Trumpism is chalked up as a difference of opinion like they are arguing about a sales tax or some other issue where reasonable minds can differ.

Either way it's cowardly.
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Old 10th August 2022, 09:40 AM   #214
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I love my wife. You love your children. But nobody in this or any other universe loves anything as much as evil wrong people love the narrative that if you respond to their wrongness and evil you'll pay the price for it.

I mean it's true for certain values of true. Yes the next Republican controlled Congress will try to bring charges on the next Democratic President.

But much like how the abusive husband can tell the battered wife that she's the one breaking up the family by refusing to take him back and be technically correct...
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:21 AM   #215
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I see Trump took the 5th in New York. I thought only criminals took the 5th?

Rudy was ordered to travel to Atlanta any way necessary after trying to avoid testifying by saying he couldn't travel.
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:40 AM   #216
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Here is another thought:

the DOJ has been anything but forthcoming with the Jan 6th Commission. This property search might have been the reason, as disclosing what the DOJ had might have caused Trump to destroy even more records.
ideally, the Jan 6th Commission will get more access to DOJ material now.
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:52 AM   #217
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No. The Jan 6th commission will be just like his impeachment. And his impeachment before that. And his tax records. And the Mueller report. And all the other "The noose is finally tightening and this time we mean it and this time we really mean it when we tell it this time we really mean it" moments that never actually got around to hanging him

We've been polishing the glove in anticipation of the knockout punch for about ten thousand years now it feels like.
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:56 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No. The Jan 6th commission will be just like his impeachment. And his impeachment before that. And his tax records. And the Mueller report. And all the other "The noose is finally tightening and this time we mean it and this time we really mean it when we tell it this time we really mean it" moments that never actually got around to hanging him

We've been polishing the glove in anticipation of the knockout punch for about ten thousand years now it feels like.
The January 6th Committee can't prosecute him. They at most can refer him to the DOJ for possible indictment.
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:59 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The January 6th Committee can't prosecute him. They at most can refer him to the DOJ for possible indictment.
Even better then. It's not even tightening the noose it's polishing the rope that might one day become the noose.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:30 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Even better then. It's not even tightening the noose it's polishing the rope that might one day become the noose.
Geez...and I thought I was getting cynical.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:33 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Geez...and I thought I was getting cynical.
He's not wrong. We all know this will end up as maybe a stern finger shaking at worst. You or I would be doing time for far less.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:34 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Geez...and I thought I was getting cynical.
Again we are like on year 5 of every other day some legal wrangle is finally going to take down Trump and nothing ever comes of any of it. And every time we have to pretend that "Oh no we NEVER said that this would take down Trump, only that it was one step in the eventual take down of Trump..." We have to now pretend like hopes WEREN'T attached to the Mueller or his tax returns or the impeachments and God knows how many others I'm forgetting.

I'm not cynical. I'm tired. So very, very ******* tired.

We couldn't impeach Trump for the thing he was actively bragging he was doing while he was being impeached for it.

He got away with ordering an angry mob to storm the Capital.

You tell me, what's could possibly be in that safe that's gonna finally going to matter?

Hell I'll take it one step further. What could be in that safe that would even surprise you at this point? Because I'm drawing a blank.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:45 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
As far as I'm concerned, Donald Trump lost any entitlement to deference as a former President when he staged his failed coup attempt on Jan. 6. While on general principles, I don't think it's a great thing for members of the previous administration to be prosecuted every time there is a change in the party of the incoming President, there have to be limits or the President is truly above the law.

If Trump is indeed prosecuted, will the incoming Republican (should they win in 2024 or 2028) prosecute Biden on some -- uh, trumped up -- charges as a tit for tat? Very likely, but that will be on them. That seems to be the level to which politics, especially as practiced by Republicans has descended in this country. But declining to prosecute Trump for his insurrection will make things worse, not better.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:11 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again we are like on year 5 of every other day some legal wrangle is finally going to take down Trump and nothing ever comes of any of it. And every time we have to pretend that "Oh no we NEVER said that this would take down Trump, only that it was one step in the eventual take down of Trump..." We have to now pretend like hopes WEREN'T attached to the Mueller or his tax returns or the impeachments and God knows how many others I'm forgetting.

I'm not cynical. I'm tired. So very, very ******* tired.
No, you are very cynical. We're ALL tired of this but doing the Danny Downer routine constantly doesn't help.


Quote:
We couldn't impeach Trump for the thing he was actively bragging he was doing while he was being impeached for it.
Trump was impeached but not enough GOP senators would vote to convict. That is far from surprising considering most of them are Trump arselickers. However, criminal charges against Trump will not be judged by extremely partisan politicians, but by a jury.

Quote:
He got away with ordering an angry mob to storm the Capital.
Really? Exactly who is it, then, that is under DOJ investigation for exactly that? Who is under a Congressional Special Committee investigation for exactly that?

Quote:
You tell me, what's could possibly be in that safe that's gonna finally going to matter?
Have you not watched the J6C hearings? Oh, I forgot...it's never going to be "safe" enough, right?

Quote:
Hell I'll take it one step further. What could be in that safe that would even surprise you at this point? Because I'm drawing a blank.
I don't think you'd be satisfied with a videotaped confession by Trump at this point.

Ya know, sometimes you post things that I agree with, but the continual negativity gets really old.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:11 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by ZiprHead View Post
Some really good tweets from that link

Jeff Yarbro
"Q: So when did the DOJ start treating removal of classified documents like a felony anyway?
A: When President Trump signed a 2018 law making it a felony."


Ron Burrow
"Republicans had 4yrs to reign in their guy and teach him how to be a president. Instead they embraced his lawlessness & put him above god in their eyes. Act like a crook, do crook things. Don’t get mad when you get crook treatment!"

Andrew Weissman
"The FBI is required to give to Trump an inventory of what was found in the search; if Trump claims he had no govt property in his home and this is a witch hunt, then he should release the search inventory. Time to put up or shut up......"

Rachel Vindman
"The former president and his cronies DID try to do this to my husband so SHUT UP."

Dan Rather
"Maybe some historians can help me out here. Trying to remember what the Founding Fathers thought of a head of government who was above the law. And what they thought of those who pledged fealty to that man."
.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, you are very cynical. We're ALL tired of this but doing the Danny Downer routine constantly doesn't help.
Then ignore me. I have to ignore half the board to even stay sane, you can ignore me if you don't like it.

And like I keep saying... as soon I'm proven wrong you can be the first to tell me.

I'm sure it will happen... any day now.

I could go back a year, two, maybe three and find a post of yours "tsk tsking" me about this. And yet we're still here, still waiting.

How long do we have to wait before I become right by default?

And that's not rhetorical. How long do we have to wait and stay positive? And I want a number, not a vague allusion to patience. I want a date where if it passes and Trump is still a free man you will admit you are wrong.

I no longer accept the sliding scale of "Eventually" that moves down the track everytime anything happens so it's always the same distance in the future.

It's like cold fusion and Jabba proving immortality. No matter how long we wait it's always ten years away.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:15 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the DOJ has been anything but forthcoming with the Jan 6th Commission.
Isn't that the way it's supposed to work? Has the commission asked the DOJ for anything?
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:35 PM   #228
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I think one thing that needs to be considered, as well, are that a lot of chickens are coming home to roost at the same time.

Trump has avoided a lot of trouble because he has drawn things out as long as he can using the courts, and the POTUS office as a cover. The FBI, NY AG, etc. aren't congress; however, the unwritten rule was to not go after a candidate or the POTUS while they're running or in office.

Trump has only been out of office for a year and a half. This last year and a half has been a series of rulings against Trump, and we're even seeing him sit down for a deposition today.

I understand the negativity, but I'm pretty pleased that progress is being made on a few of his cases.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:35 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Then ignore me. I have to ignore half the board to even stay sane, you can ignore me if you don't like it.

And like I keep saying... as soon I'm proven wrong you can be the first to tell me.

I'm sure it will happen... any day now.

I could go back a year, two, maybe three and find a post of yours "tsk tsking" me about this. And yet we're still here, still waiting.

How long do we have to wait before I become right by default?

And that's not rhetorical. How long do we have to wait and stay positive? And I want a number, not a vague allusion to patience. I want a date where if it passes and Trump is still a free man you will admit you are wrong.

I no longer accept the sliding scale of "Eventually" that moves down the track everytime anything happens so it's always the same distance in the future.

It's like cold fusion and Jabba proving immortality. No matter how long we wait it's always ten years away.
Exactly, Joe...years of your whining and constantly repeating how pointing out the GOP's hypocrisy is useless, how nothing will be done, how nothing will change. The same old song over and over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got your message years ago. But you're right about one thing: I can ignore you and the time has come to do so. Your constant Danny Downer routine is so very, very tiring. Some people are not happy unless they're unhappy.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:42 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I think one thing that needs to be considered, as well, are that a lot of chickens are coming home to roost at the same time.

Trump has avoided a lot of trouble because he has drawn things out as long as he can using the courts, and the POTUS office as a cover. The FBI, NY AG, etc. aren't congress; however, the unwritten rule was to not go after a candidate or the POTUS while they're running or in office.

Trump has only been out of office for a year and a half. This last year and a half has been a series of rulings against Trump, and we're even seeing him sit down for a deposition today.

I understand the negativity, but I'm pretty pleased that progress is being made on a few of his cases.
I agree, the wheels of justice turn slowly, especially when the party concerned is/was a POTUS. That alone makes this unique and requires an extremely thorough and time-consuming investigation. As you mention, all the court challenges had to be dealt with and things are all coming together now. I refuse to be negative about how long it's taking because I understand that a hasty reaction would have been very vulnerable to not crossing all the t's and dotting all the i's.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:45 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Exactly, Joe...years of your whining and constantly repeating how pointing out the GOP's hypocrisy is useless, how nothing will be done, how nothing will change. The same old song over and over and over and over again ad nauseum. We got your message years ago. But you're right about one thing: I can ignore you and the time has come to do so. Your constant Danny Downer routine is so very, very tiring. Some people are not happy unless they're unhappy.
How is your "This time is different!" routine any more positive?

Why do YOU get to repeat "This time is different!" over and over but I don't get to say "No it's not" over and over?

And you didn't answer my question, which I think kind of tips your hand.

You've been "tsk tsking" me for years about this. Doesn't that kind of prove my point?
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:47 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Here is another thought:

the DOJ has been anything but forthcoming with the Jan 6th Commission. This property search might have been the reason, as disclosing what the DOJ had might have caused Trump to destroy even more records.
ideally, the Jan 6th Commission will get more access to DOJ material now.
Guy, you just hate Law Enforcement in general.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:47 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's not rhetorical. How long do we have to wait and stay positive? And I want a number, not a vague allusion to patience. I want a date where if it passes and Trump is still a free man you will admit you are wrong.
That's ridiculous and we both know why. Investigations don't have "dates to be concluded" on them. That's just not how it works and you damn well know that.

So the answer to your question of "how long do we wait?" is "until the investigations are closed". If they're closed with no charges being pressed then you can win. We'll all bask in the sun of your accurate negativity.

I, personally, will say, "Damn, that Joe. He was really right to be extremely negative about all of these investigations because Trump skirted them all."

In contrast, however, we're seeing something that's never been done before, the raiding of an ex-POTUS's property. I'd call that a pretty ******* big step forward in any investigation. I call the game changing progress.

In summation, you do you. I encourage it, and you're not the only one. It just sucks that there's always this caveat of "if I'm wrong I'll be happy!" because it pretty much means you win either way. You get to piss and moan all the time, and then declare victory because what you really wanted came true. It's lame as hell.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:50 PM   #234
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We've seen stuff with Trump we never saw before so many times that phrase has zero meaning.

Jesus Christ we all know Trump ain't that many years left in him. What's the plan we gonna pull a Cadaver Synod on him?

"How long is too long" is NOT some unreasonable cynical grump of a question to ask. I'm not asking for an hour or a day, just give me a goddamn decade.

Nixon didn't take this long and Nixon wasn't openly bragging about doing what he was accused of doing the entire time.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:55 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We've seen stuff with Trump we never saw before so many times that phrase has zero meaning.

Jesus Christ we all know Trump ain't that many years left in him. What's the plan we gonna pull a Cadaver Synod on him?

"How long is too long" is NOT some unreasonable cynical grump of a question.

Nixon didn't take this long and Nixon wasn't openly bragging about doing what he was accused of doing the entire time.
"How long is too long" is a pretty stupid question considering we're talking about an active investigation into a former POTUS. I'd say the actual clock didn't start ticking until he was out of office. The Jan. 6th **** has barely even started. The only people who have been found guilty and processed are the ones that were caught on footage in the building, and of them the only ones done with the process are the ones that took plea bargains. There are still trials.

Do I think Trump, who would be the last one to ever see handcuffs or charges, should be tried already? No, that's ******* stupid. They're going to make sure every i is dotted and every t crossed. The committee isn't even done yet.

As I mentioned, the NY AG case had him and his kids sit down for depositions in the last few months. That's normal progress. Standard stuff.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:57 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Guy, you just hate Law Enforcement in general.
What cops & prosecutors do in the US is, by and large, not Law enforcement but privilege protection.

Show me actual Law Enforcement in the societal sense, and I will heartily support it.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:59 PM   #237
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Well listen if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. When the day comes I'll be too happy to care about whatever crow it's super-important to make me eat.

I'll happily take all the "Itoldyasos" anyone has on the day Trump gets SOME kind of meaningful punishment.

Kind of the advantage you guys have. I don't get to gloat if I'm right because... well we will all have bigger stuff to worry about.

(Actually give me like a day to be happy. You can start on me the day after.)
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:04 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I see Trump took the 5th in New York. I thought only criminals took the 5th?
A little earlier the BBC had a funny take on this. The newscaster mentioned Trump taking the 5th and they immediately cut to a speech of his from a few years ago:

"The mob, right? The mob take the 5th. Why would you take the 5th if you're innocent?"
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:22 PM   #239
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This Newsweek article was pretty interesting to read. If it hasn't been covered yet:

Quote:
In late April, the source says, a federal grand jury began deliberating whether there was a violation of the Presidential Records Act or whether President Trump unlawfully possessed national security information. Through the grand jury process, the National Archives provided federal prosecutors with copies of the documents received from former President Trump in January 2022. The grand jury concluded that there had been a violation of the law, according to the Justice Department source.

In the past week, the prosecutor in the case and local Assistant U.S. Attorney went to Florida magistrate Judge Bruce Reinhart in West Palm Beach to seek approval for the search of Donald Trump's private residence. The affidavit to obtain the search warrant, the intelligence source says, contained abundant and persuasive detail that Trump continued to possess the relevant records in violation of federal law, and that investigators had sufficient information to prove that those records were located at Mar-a-Lago—including the detail that they were contained in a specific safe in a specific room.
The fact a grand jury says Trump broke the law, it's not surprising that the FBI would want to get the data back.

It also sounds like the informant was extremely specific and had very detailed information. If the right wants to blame someone....the calls are coming from inside the house.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:24 PM   #240
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Republicans saying one thing and saying the other 5 seconds later is like their go to bit now. It's like George Carlin's 7 Words or Abbot & Costello's Who's On First.

Republicans are literally always either screaming at Democrat because their fly is down while they aren't even wearing pants (and while the Democrat's fly isn't even down) or doing something that five minutes ago they said it was wrong for a Democrat to do.

Again "Look at how wrong and hypocritical I am, I dare you to do something about it" is so much the point, at this point.
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