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Old 20th October 2022, 10:10 PM   #1
Aridas
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Potential GOP support for Ukraine post-Mid Term

To poke at another development in a tangent that's popped up occasionally, Republican leader McCarthy just signaled that, should Republicans gain a majority, American backing for Ukraine would likely be curtailed or eliminated. Makes me wonder whether this is part of a quid pro quo with the Russians - Russians act to drive gas prices up, which increases Republican electoral prospects, and the Republicans back them as much as they think they can get away with. Either way, it's handing comfort to Russia and an easy line of propaganda - that they just need to hold on for a little longer and things will change for the better. For those who think that popular Republican support for aiding Ukraine would be enough to prevent this... Republican lawmakers regularly spit in the collective face of the Republican base. That doesn't mean that it will necessarily happen in this case, of course, but that that particular line of reasoning is poorly founded.

Elsewhere, looks like we're being warned that Russia has mined the Kakhovka hydroelectric power plant's dam. Separately, there are apparently claims that a number of Russians might be looting (many tons of household appliances) and pulling out of the area of the nuclear power plant. If so, we can hope that they're not sabotaging the power plant, not that hope is likely to change things one way or another. Sabotaging the power plant would be quite in line with the current Russian propaganda line about how power needs to be cut off for civilians in Ukraine, though.

To switch gears again, Iran's getting sanctioned by the EU because of the use of Iranian drones in attacking Ukraine, especially Ukraine's civilian infrastructure, by the look of it.
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Old 20th October 2022, 11:25 PM   #2
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i have repeatedly been told by some here that Republican commitment for Ukraine is just as strong as that of Democrats, and would remain so no matter the outcome of the midterms.
what an (un)expected suprise!
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Old 20th October 2022, 11:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
i have repeatedly been told by some here that Republican commitment for Ukraine is just as strong as that of Democrats, and would remain so no matter the outcome of the midterms.
what an (un)expected suprise!
Yes, the Republican Party will never forgive Ukraine for not helping President Trump after that perfect phone call.

They also like a right wing authoritarian leader.
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Old 21st October 2022, 02:20 AM   #4
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Never mind - point already made.

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Old 21st October 2022, 03:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
i have repeatedly been told by some here that Republican commitment for Ukraine is just as strong as that of Democrats, and would remain so no matter the outcome of the midterms.
what an (un)expected suprise!

Kindly quote where anyone said that.
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Old 21st October 2022, 04:35 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Kindly quote where anyone said that.
This you?

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Old 21st October 2022, 04:37 AM   #7
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
thanks!
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Old 21st October 2022, 05:13 AM   #8
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And, as my request implied, I never said that the Republican commitment is "just as strong" as that of the Democrats. What I have maintained is that there are, and will be, enough pro-Ukraine Republicans to continue funding. Further, as I have discussed, and people continue to ignore, what Kevin McCarthy thinks or says about Ukrainian aid isn't particularly relevant, as a floor vote on any bill can be forced by the signing of a discharge petition by a simple majority of House members. (In practice, however, the leadership will generally move the bill before this happens, in order to avoid embarrassment.)
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Old 21st October 2022, 05:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
And, as my request implied, I never said that the Republican commitment is "just as strong" as that of the Democrats. What I have maintained is that there are, and will be, enough pro-Ukraine Republicans to continue funding. Further, as I have discussed, and people continue to ignore, what Kevin McCarthy thinks or says about Ukrainian aid isn't particularly relevant, as a floor vote on any bill can be forced by the signing of a discharge petition by a simple majority of House members. (In practice, however, the leadership will generally move the bill before this happens, in order to avoid embarrassment.)
IIRC, it was my opinion that US support for Ukraine would cease if the GOP controls House and Senate that prompted your post. I see no reason to revise that opinion.

The GOP will hang Ukraine out to dry at the first opportunity.
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Old 21st October 2022, 05:42 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IIRC, it was my opinion that US support for Ukraine would cease if the GOP controls House and Senate that prompted your post. I see no reason to revise that opinion.

The GOP will hang Ukraine out to dry at the first opportunity.

They've already had the opportunity; they could have filibustered any of the previous Ukraine aid bills. So kindly explain why they didn't.
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Old 21st October 2022, 05:45 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
They've already had the opportunity; they could have filibustered any of the previous Ukraine aid bills. So kindly explain why they didn't.
I don't know, maybe it's a level below even they will not sink.

Having control of the House and Senate OTOH will give them a mandate to pull support for Ukraine.
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Old 21st October 2022, 06:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
They've already had the opportunity; they could have filibustered any of the previous Ukraine aid bills. So kindly explain why they didn't.
At the time, Ukraine was struggling for its life. A filibuster would have been a really bad look early in the conflict. Even so a number of republicans voted against aid.

Its now several months into the war and Ukraine has a handle on things thanks to Western aid. its also a bit more out of the public eye. So now McCarthy, y'know the guy in charge of the GOP in the House, feels safe in making noises about reducing or even ending aid.
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Old 21st October 2022, 06:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
At the time, Ukraine was struggling for its life. A filibuster would have been a really bad look early in the conflict. Even so a number of republicans voted against aid.

Its now several months into the war and Ukraine has a handle on things thanks to Western aid. its also a bit more out of the public eye. So now McCarthy, y'know the guy in charge of the GOP in the House, feels safe in making noises about reducing or even ending aid.
Not having a handle on US domestic politics, I have to ask; is he angling for concessions on some other issue or just being a dick and genuinely aiming to hang Ukraine out to dry?
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Old 21st October 2022, 07:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't know, maybe it's a level below even they will not sink.

How is filibustering a bill one opposes when in the minority different from refusing to bring a bill up for consideration when in the majority?

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Having control of the House and Senate OTOH will give them a mandate to pull support for Ukraine.

No. Frankly, this is simply your attempt to explain away evidence that contradicts the narrative that virtually all Republicans are evil and/or stupid, and that they're all champing at the bit to completely cut off aid to Ukraine. (Or, alternatively, that Trump has such huge influence that he will be able to convince virtually all Republicans to oppose such aid, when he's proven unable to do so until now.)
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Old 21st October 2022, 07:23 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
How is filibustering a bill one opposes when in the minority different from refusing to bring a bill up for consideration when in the majority?
One (the filibuster) is is taking obvious and direct action to prevent something which is popular with the public.

The other is simply losing a bill in the shuffle - priorities and all that.

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
No. Frankly, this is simply your attempt to explain away evidence that contradicts the narrative that virtually all Republicans are evil and/or stupid, and that they're all champing at the bit to completely cut off aid to Ukraine. (Or, alternatively, that Trump has such huge influence that he will be able to convince virtually all Republicans to oppose such aid, when he's proven unable to do so until now.)
If they want to stop the narrative of being evil and/or stupid then they need to change their behaviour.

Almost all GOP representatives have signed on to the narrative that the 2020 election was stolen.

Do you, as a moderate Republican believe that this is the case ?

Why do (nearly) all GOP representatives believe that this is the case.

If support for Ukraine is so strong then why is Kevin McCarthy, the leader of the Republicans in the House, talking about removing or significantly reducing it ? Is he doing this in a vacuum or is he representing the majority view of the party ?

If Donald Trump is so marginalised in the party, why is (nearly) every GOP representative desperate to get his endorsement ?
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Old 21st October 2022, 07:43 AM   #16
Aridas
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not having a handle on US domestic politics, I have to ask; is he angling for concessions on some other issue or just being a dick and genuinely aiming to hang Ukraine out to dry?
Honestly hard to tell, especially with the current GOP. The current GOP has philosophical, financial, and strategic ties with Russia as both are pretty directly working to pander to authoritarians and far right extremists. The authoritarian side of the GOP has nurtured a bit of a cult of Putin (among other dictators) for a fair while, now. The GOP's Russia support side is not solely the authoritarian wing, though. Its politicians are far too influenced by libertarian billionaires and unsavory corporations. Big Oil, in particular. It should be pretty obvious that Big Oil is *very* unhappy with their Russian investments being jeopardized by support of Ukraine and that they would use their influence to... try to protect their profiteering, rather than with any concern for admirable principles. In short, there's very real pressure to hang Ukraine out to dry. It's very likely that his signalling is, in short, pandering towards the pro-Russia forces influencing the GOP and the very fact that he's doing so is a distinct indicator of future decision making. It's the kind of thing that's certainly not set in stone, though, and pressure could certainly change things later, a change that could easily be later spun as angling for concessions.
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Old 21st October 2022, 07:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Not having a handle on US domestic politics, I have to ask; is he angling for concessions on some other issue or just being a dick and genuinely aiming to hang Ukraine out to dry?
The GOP has demagogued foreign aid in general, and Ukraine military aid specifically, as money that could 'better be spent on Americans with inflation being so crazy' (while absolutely refusing to spend money on helping Americans, what with their plan being to restrict/defund Medicare/Medicaid, food assistance, Social Security, plus tax cuts for the rich again). The goal isn't to get concessions by threatening Ukraine aid, but to play to America's internal fears. There are also a lot of Republicans who think Ukraine really are corrupt leftist Nazis (or at least more corrupt than Russia) who betrayed the US by not letting the Bidens be investigated. The facts not being on their side doesn't matter.

And the plain fact is that the 'moderate' GOP voters who are more reasonable on things like Ukraine aid and Russia will do absolutely nothing meaningful to hold their extremist cohort accountable, just like on all the other issues they're in denial about or simply memory hole. Many of them are in this thread.

The thing the GOP House will do to get concessions on other things (like literally withholding federal funds from anywhere that allows LGBTQ people to come into contact with children under 10, an actual bill with a ton of GOP sponsors) is to refuse to raise the debt ceiling. They are fully willing to crash the global economy and ruin what trust is left in the US for that.
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Old 21st October 2022, 07:54 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
At the time, Ukraine was struggling for its life. A filibuster would have been a really bad look early in the conflict. Even so a number of republicans voted against aid.

It is true that support for aid to Ukraine is likely to soften as the Ukrainian Army continues to make progress in liberating territory from the Russians. But that is a problem across the political spectrum in most Western or Western-aligned countries. It is far from unique to the Republicans.

Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Its now several months into the war and Ukraine has a handle on things thanks to Western aid. its also a bit more out of the public eye. So now McCarthy, y'know the guy in charge of the GOP in the House, feels safe in making noises about reducing or even ending aid.

I would dispute the hilited characterization, though the situation has unquestionably improved considerably since the spring. That said, the claim was not made that Republicans would cut off aid to Ukraine as soon as a stalemate was achieved and public interest waned. The claim was made that Republicans would cut off aid if they gained control of one or both houses of Congress. I maintain that their control is irrelevant to cutting off aid. I have also attempted to explain, and people have continued to ignore, the fact that McCarthy can't stop an aid bill from being discharged and voted on if a majority of house members sign a petition. And despite the continued repetition of the "Republicans are evil/stupid/cowardly" (sorry, I forgot "cowardly" before) mantra, the fact is that a sufficient number of Republicans would sign such a petition and vote for an aid bill that it would pass the House of Representatives.

I'm of the opinion that McCarthy is mainly planning to attempt to attach strings to future aid that would constrain and/or potentially embarrass the Biden administration, such as increased (and probably unnecessary) oversight.
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Old 21st October 2022, 08:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
It is true that support for aid to Ukraine is likely to soften as the Ukrainian Army continues to make progress in liberating territory from the Russians. But that is a problem across the political spectrum in most Western or Western-aligned countries. It is far from unique to the Republicans.




I would dispute the hilited characterization, though the situation has unquestionably improved considerably since the spring. That said, the claim was not made that Republicans would cut off aid to Ukraine as soon as a stalemate was achieved and public interest waned. The claim was made that Republicans would cut off aid if they gained control of one or both houses of Congress. I maintain that their control is irrelevant to cutting off aid. I have also attempted to explain, and people have continued to ignore, the fact that McCarthy can't stop an aid bill from being discharged and voted on if a majority of house members sign a petition. And despite the continued repetition of the "Republicans are evil/stupid/cowardly" (sorry, I forgot "cowardly" before) mantra, the fact is that a sufficient number of Republicans would sign such a petition and vote for an aid bill that it would pass the House of Representatives.

I'm of the opinion that McCarthy is mainly planning to attempt to attach strings to future aid that would constrain and/or potentially embarrass the Biden administration, such as increased (and probably unnecessary) oversight.
I hate when a post gets lost at the bottom of the previous page.

tl;dr - It's to seem like the GOP has something 'reasonable' to do about inflation primarily. How much they actually do for this theater might be debatable, but they absolutely would cut the aid including completely if they thought it would make them seem focused on the economy making 'hard' (cruel and stupid) choices.
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Old 21st October 2022, 09:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IIRC, it was my opinion that US support for Ukraine would cease if the GOP controls House and Senate that prompted your post. I see no reason to revise that opinion.

The GOP will hang Ukraine out to dry at the first opportunity.
I doubt it, not in 2023. But, they'll use it as a bargaining chip for things they want like lower taxes, lower debt ceiling, austerity measures (not a term we actually use in the US).

If Trump gains the White House in 2025, forget it. Our aid to Ukraine will come to an end, if indeed they still need it.
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Old 21st October 2022, 09:45 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
No. Frankly, this is simply your attempt to explain away evidence that contradicts the narrative that virtually all Republicans are evil and/or stupid, and that they're all champing at the bit to completely cut off aid to Ukraine. (Or, alternatively, that Trump has such huge influence that he will be able to convince virtually all Republicans to oppose such aid, when he's proven unable to do so until now.)
Whereas McCarthy's remarks are nothing more than evidence that some Republicans are evil and/or stupid, and McCarthy thinks there will be (following the midterms) enough Republican representatives of that description to back up his threat.
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Old 21st October 2022, 11:33 AM   #22
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Headline from Business Insider article.

"Mitch McConnell breaks with Kevin McCarthy, pledges to send more aid to Ukraine if Republicans win the Senate"

Perhaps it is just another example of not coordinating the talking points and getting the message straight before McCarthy starts making pronouncements? Careful, Kevin, don't get ahead of the game plan.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...669650e1945c49
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Old 21st October 2022, 12:01 PM   #23
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McCarthy is on the side of Trump, McConnell isn't.
It's not clear that Mitch would win this.
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Old 21st October 2022, 01:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
i have repeatedly been told by some here that Republican commitment for Ukraine is just as strong as that of Democrats, and would remain so no matter the outcome of the midterms.
what an (un)expected suprise!
McCarthy's "Ukarine will not get a blank check" remark has come under fire from a number of Republican, and I expect a walkback or clarification ayd day.
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Old 21st October 2022, 01:06 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I doubt it, not in 2023. But, they'll use it as a bargaining chip for things they want like lower taxes, lower debt ceiling, austerity measures (not a term we actually use in the US).

If Tr5, forget it. Our aid to Ukraine will come tump gains the White House in 202o an end, if indeed they still need it.
If Trump gets the white House in 2025, we will have our own civil war to worry about...
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Old 21st October 2022, 02:04 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I don't know, maybe it's a level below even they will not sink.

Having control of the House and Senate OTOH will give them a mandate to pull support for Ukraine.
WHich would be very popular with many Republican and swing state voters....

You really do have a very simplistic view of American Politics. THe GOP has deep divisions, in case you have not noticied.

At wosst, I think the GOP In the house will use Ukraine Funding as a lever to get other thinkgs they want...
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Old 21st October 2022, 02:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
McCarthy is on the side of Trump, McConnell isn't.
It's not clear that Mitch would win this.
McCarthy is on the side of McCarthy. He has gone back and forth on Trump.
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Old 21st October 2022, 02:16 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
WHich would be very popular with many Republican and swing state voters....

You really do have a very simplistic view of American Politics. THe GOP has deep divisions, in case you have not noticied.

At wosst, I think the GOP In the house will use Ukraine Funding as a lever to get other thinkgs they want...
The GOP may have deep divisions but it doesn't stop them rallying around when it comes to a vote.

Concerns may be expressed but when push comes to shove they toe the line.
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Old 21st October 2022, 02:21 PM   #29
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I think there will clearly be a small but vocal Republican minority that wants to pull support from Ukraine in order to save the world from nuclear war or to simply keep America's interests on American soil.

Or they will want to support Putin because he is very anti-woke.
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Old 21st October 2022, 03:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If Trump gets the white House in 2025, we will have our own civil war to worry about...
And Ukraine can send arms to us!
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Old 21st October 2022, 03:45 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I think there will clearly be a small but vocal Republican minority that wants to pull support from Ukraine in order to save the world from nuclear war or to simply keep America's interests on American soil.

Or they will want to support Putin because he is very anti-woke.
almost to my early youth, when isolationists rejoiced in our oceanic ramparts east and west.

And responsible conservatives respected Mr. Hitler for his sound principles, especially on the Jewish question.
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Old 21st October 2022, 04:38 PM   #32
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With this crazy GOP, there's really nothing they could do that would surprise me anymore.
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Old 21st October 2022, 05:31 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
At the time, Ukraine was struggling for its life. A filibuster would have been a really bad look early in the conflict. Even so a number of republicans voted against aid.

Its now several months into the war and Ukraine has a handle on things thanks to Western aid. its also a bit more out of the public eye. So now McCarthy, y'know the guy in charge of the GOP in the House, feels safe in making noises about reducing or even ending aid.
He's probably fishing for reconstruction contracts. Once this is is over, some multinational corporations are going to make bank, rebuilding Ukraine and integrating it into the western economy.

Given the literal tens of billions dollars the US is spending to keep Ukraine in the game, I wouldn't be at all surprised if sooner or later some US policy maker floats or forces the idea of US companies going to the front of the line.

And honestly I don't begrudge the desire for some kind of payoff. The US is pouring a ridiculous amount of treasure into Ukraine. It's reasonable to ask that those coffers be refilled, in the fullness of time. But let's be clear. There is no payoff, if Ukraine loses this fight.

And let's be honest: Ukrainian corruption didn't disappear, the day Putin crossed the border. Western corruption, cynical focus on quid pro quo, didn't vanish just because the West responded by sending Javelins.

When this is over, there's going to be an accounting.
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Old 21st October 2022, 08:30 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IIRC, it was my opinion that US support for Ukraine would cease if the GOP controls House and Senate that prompted your post. I see no reason to revise that opinion.

The GOP will hang Ukraine out to dry at the first opportunity.
Of course they will.

We all know that the GQP in its current form is anti-Democracy, pro-Trump, pro-authoritarianism and therefore pro-Putin and pro-Russia. Why would they not hang Ukraine out to dry?
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Old 21st October 2022, 09:01 PM   #35
Aridas
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
McCarthy is on the side of Trump, McConnell isn't.
It's not clear that Mitch would win this.
Yeah, that's a short way to put it. McConnell's been victorious so far, though, which is a good thing here. As an aside, I'm mildly amused by the fact that I find myself aligned with McConnell on something and there's not even a hint of unease.

With that said, given the bad faith "negotiations" that the GOP's been so consistent with when issues reach the public stage, the willingness to do very real harm even to the US to gain some predicted political advantage, and the demonizing of working with Democrats/"giving them wins" that's been far too prevalent on top of the factors that I poked at before, I definitely wouldn't count on Grassley's actions being an actual negotiation tactic. I'd rate preparing the ground to try to turn Ukraine into a Forever War on behalf of the military equipment producers as more likely, for that matter.
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Old 22nd October 2022, 04:43 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Having control of the House and Senate OTOH will give them a mandate to pull support for Ukraine.
Why would you think that? That isn't what they are running on, that isn't the primary concern of voters. You don't have a mandate on issues you don't campaign on.
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Old 22nd October 2022, 08:22 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would you think that? That isn't what they are running on, that isn't the primary concern of voters. You don't have a mandate on issues you don't campaign on.
A party with a majority claims a mandate for all their actions in my experience (regardless of their position on the political spectrum)
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Old 22nd October 2022, 09:54 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
One (the filibuster) is is taking obvious and direct action to prevent something which is popular with the public.

Are you contending that any bill that is about to pass the US Senate must necessarily be popular with the American public? If so, that is demonstrably false. Or are you saying that the Republicans didn't dare to filibuster Ukraine aid because at the time it was popular with the public? If so, it is still popular, and is likely to remain so in at least the near term.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The other is simply losing a bill in the shuffle - priorities and all that.

If the Senate Republicans lose a Ukraine aid bill "in the shuffle," I guarantee that the fact will be heavily reported in the mainstream media.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If they want to stop the narrative of being evil and/or stupid then they need to change their behaviour.

To respond to this would require delving into why you believe this is an accurate characterization, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Almost all GOP representatives have signed on to the narrative that the 2020 election was stolen.

It's actually about half, which is still far too many. But I pose the question: How many Democrats criticized Stacy Abrams's false claims that the 2018 election for governor of Georgia was stolen from her? I'm not saying that that makes the Republicans' behavior acceptable; I'm saying that it's not reasonable to expect a significant number of them to shoot themselves in the foot by calling out Trump's lies. "Democracy is a terrible form of government . . ."

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Do you, as a moderate Republican believe that this is the case ?

I'm no longer a Republican; I officially left in the summer of 2020, when I moved to Florida and registered to vote as an independent. I had previously stated to Republican friends that I was planning to leave if Trump didn't prove to be an aberration, and by 2020 it was clear that he wasn't.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Why do (nearly) all GOP representatives believe that this is the case.

See above.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If support for Ukraine is so strong then why is Kevin McCarthy, the leader of the Republicans in the House, talking about removing or significantly reducing it ? Is he doing this in a vacuum or is he representing the majority view of the party ?

What he actually said was that Republicans weren't going to "write a blank check" to Ukraine. He also said that "Ukraine is important." Those can be taken several ways. He subsequently stated that he didn't understand why people thought that increased oversight and scrutiny were bad. And in response McConnell has come out and said that a Republican Senate majority will continue to support Ukraine.

Further, I think that you, and several others, have misunderstood the point I've been trying to make. My point is that it doesn't matter whether Republican support for Ukraine is strong or weak. Even if the Republicans control both houses of Congress, it will only take a few Republicans in the House, plus Mitch McConnell, to join the Democrats in passing Ukraine aid bills. Some people have contended that Trump will somehow scare virtually every House Republican plus McConnell into opposing any additional aid to Ukraine. It should be quite clear by now that McConnell isn't scared of Trump. And even if McConnell dies or is otherwise replaced, the rest of the Republican Senate leadership is also pro-Ukraine.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
If Donald Trump is so marginalised in the party, why is (nearly) every GOP representative desperate to get his endorsement ?

I never said he was marginalized (although it is clear that his influence, while still considerable, is diminishing). I simply dispute the implication that he has the power to make virtually the entire GOP fall in line by coming out strongly against any more Ukraine aid. I also dispute your characterization of all those seeking his endorsement as "desperate." Further, once we're past the election, it will be eighteen months before those who might be scared of Trump will have to worry about his displeasure.

Someone (TGZ, I think) estimated earlier that 2/3 of Republicans would fall in line if Trump were to do this. I have tried repeatedly to explain why the remaining third would be easily enough, along with the Democrats, to continue supporting Ukraine. But my explanations keep getting handwaved away with statements implying that virtually all Republicans are either just waiting for an excuse to cut Ukraine off, or will fall in line because they're afraid of Trump.
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Old 22nd October 2022, 11:07 AM   #39
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the problem is that, empirically, Republicans who do not support their Party Line ABSTAIN and do not come over to the Dem's side except in rare circumstances and mostly when it doesn't change the outcome.
Even if 1/3 of Republicans don't support shafting Ukraine, that doesn't mean that they will support arming it. Just not stand in the way of Dems arming it.
It's not their fault if Dems can't pass the legislation on their own.

We see all the time Republicans taking credit for legislation their voted but passed by Dems against if it's popular with their voters, and they blame Dems for failing to pass legislation their themselves didn't support.
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Old 22nd October 2022, 11:15 AM   #40
Aridas
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
But I pose the question: How many Democrats criticized Stacy Abrams's false claims that the 2018 election for governor of Georgia was stolen from her?
Without going too deeply into this - Nuance and action matters. Stacy Abrams actually had a case to make and made it in a way that calls for actual improvement. Further, she fully abided by law and decency as she made the case that the system is being used to tip the scales, rather than upholding actual fairness, and has abided with the results at every turn. The resemblance to various Republican efforts that have earned notable criticism is only there at the most superficial level. That's more than enough for Republican propagandists who have made it pretty clear that they want to protect their tipping and increase it to scream bloody murder about her, of course.



Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Even if the Republicans control both houses of Congress, it will only take a few Republicans in the House, plus Mitch McConnell, to join the Democrats in passing Ukraine aid bills.
I thought that I would poke at this largely to highlight the actual position that you seem to be forwarding. I'm going to say that I think that it's a reasonable point to make, even if the Republicans are a bit famous for falling in line.
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