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Old 22nd October 2022, 02:21 PM   #41
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would you think that? That isn't what they are running on, that isn't the primary concern of voters. You don't have a mandate on issues you don't campaign on.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-uk...a4d238ec076f4a


https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...p-ukraine-aid/
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Old 22nd October 2022, 04:27 PM   #42
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He said no blank check. He didn't say no aid. The difference is important.
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Old 22nd October 2022, 04:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
How is filibustering a bill one opposes when in the minority different from refusing to bring a bill up for consideration when in the majority?




No. Frankly, this is simply your attempt to explain away evidence that contradicts the narrative that virtually all Republicans are evil and/or stupid, and that they're all champing at the bit to completely cut off aid to Ukraine. (Or, alternatively, that Trump has such huge influence that he will be able to convince virtually all Republicans to oppose such aid, when he's proven unable to do so until now.)
Thank you for saying that.
You cannot find anybody who hates Trump and Trumpism more then I do, but this everybody in the GOP is EVIL is a bit much. Right now the GOP is pretty united on winning in November, but if they do, the deep fractures in the GOP will surface.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 08:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He said no blank check. He didn't say no aid. The difference is important.
no really.
there is nothing Ukrainians could provide in return that they are not already giving, i.e. their blood.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 11:29 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He said no blank check. He didn't say no aid. The difference is important.
McCarthy's statement is a not-so-subtle insinuation that the current administration is giving them a blank check.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 11:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McCarthy's statement is a not-so-subtle insinuation that the current administration is giving them a blank check.
Which plays into trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender. Standard political posturing. What's your point?
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Old 23rd October 2022, 11:47 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which plays into trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender. Standard political posturing. What's your point?
I think my point was clear as you seem to have understood it: trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 11:57 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I think my point was clear as you seem to have understood it: trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender.
Sure. But again, that's just standard politics. This thread isn't about standard politics in general. It isn't about whether Biden is or isn't a profligate spender. It isn't about whether McCarthy's characterization of Biden is accurate. So I'll be a bit more specific: do you have a point that's relevant to the thread? Because that one wasn't.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 12:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. But again, that's just standard politics. This thread isn't about standard politics in general. It isn't about whether Biden is or isn't a profligate spender. It isn't about whether McCarthy's characterization of Biden is accurate. So I'll be a bit more specific: do you have a point that's relevant to the thread? Because that one wasn't.
If you don't think so, that's your opinion which you're entitled to. I'm not in the mood to deal with contrarianism right now.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 12:06 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
no really.
there is nothing Ukrainians could provide in return that they are not already giving, i.e. their blood.
Reconstruction contracts. Tax waivers. There's going to be a lot of economic investment in Ukraine, when this is over. Ukraine can offer seats at that table.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 12:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which plays into trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender. Standard political posturing. What's your point?
So your defense of him is that he's trying to play political games with arguably the single worst attack on Democracy since WWII?
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Old 23rd October 2022, 12:53 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So your defense of him is that he's trying to play political games with arguably the single worst attack on Democracy since WWII?
Nobody is defending McCarthy. Some are defending the idea that the US will continue to support Ukraine, in spite of - or inclusive of - McCarthy's political games.
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Old 23rd October 2022, 02:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody is defending McCarthy. Some are defending the idea that the US will continue to support Ukraine, in spite of - or inclusive of - McCarthy's political games.
I'd say some are NOT defending that at all but instead saying that the GOP may not support or will greatly curtail that aid. That is what Smartcooky's links are supporting.
Quote:
House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy warned Tuesday that Republicans will not write a “blank check” for Ukraine if they win back the House majority, reflecting his party’s growing skepticism about financial support for Kyiv as it battles Russia’s invasion.

“I think people are gonna be sitting in a recession and they’re not going to write a blank check to Ukraine,” McCarthy told Punchbowl News. “They just won’t do it. … It’s not a free blank check.”

The comments from McCarthy, who is in line to become speaker if Republicans win the House, raised fresh questions about the resiliency of America’s support for Ukraine as a growing number of Republicans, particularly those aligned with Donald Trump’s “America First” approach, question the need for federal spending abroad at a time of record-high inflation at home.
and

Quote:
After Russia invaded Ukraine in February, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) sought to out-hawk President Biden and the Democrats.

He complained that Ukraine hadn’t gotten enough help in advance and baselessly ventured that Russia “probably” wouldn’t have attacked if it had been provided with more weapons. He also pushed for the United States to provide aircraft to Ukraine when the Biden administration viewed that as impractical and of limited utility.

In a new interview, though, McCarthy is singing a significantly different tune. He says that if Republicans win back Congress, we shouldn’t take for granted that the United States will send further military aid to Ukraine.
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Old 24th October 2022, 04:52 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
the problem is that, empirically, Republicans who do not support their Party Line ABSTAIN and do not come over to the Dem's side except in rare circumstances and mostly when it doesn't change the outcome.
Even if 1/3 of Republicans don't support shafting Ukraine, that doesn't mean that they will support arming it. Just not stand in the way of Dems arming it.
It's not their fault if Dems can't pass the legislation on their own.

We see all the time Republicans taking credit for legislation their voted but passed by Dems against if it's popular with their voters, and they blame Dems for failing to pass legislation their themselves didn't support.

No.

24 House Republicans break with leadership, vote with Democrats to pass computer chip bill

47 House Republicans vote to write same-sex marriage into law

And these are just examples from this year.
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Old 24th October 2022, 11:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post

We see all the time Republicans taking credit for legislation their voted but passed by Dems against if it's popular with their voters, and they blame Dems for failing to pass legislation their themselves didn't support.
Yep; it's nothing new:

From May 11, 2021

26 AND COUNTING: [hilite]Republicans who “voted no, but took the dough”
A growing list of congressional Republicans are highlighting and taking credit for the relief provided by the American Rescue Plan after voting against it. At least 26 Republicans have joined the “Vote No, But Take the Dough Caucus” including House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy and new Republican Conference Chair Elise Stefanik.[/quote]
https://capaction.medium.com/25-and-...h-68fbf11df957

From Jan.25, 2022

Quote:
Republicans blasted for taking credit for infrastructure spending after voting ‘no’
Democrats are promising to keep tabs during the 2022 campaign on Republican lawmakers praising projects funded by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law even though they voted against it.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's office blasted out a compilation of the growing list — and journalists have also been taking note.

Lawmakers like Rep. Steve Scalise (R-LA), Clay Higgins (R-LA), Rep. Kay Granger (R-TX), Rep. Ashley Hinson (R-IA), Rep. Michelle Steel (R-CA) and Rep. Andy Harris (R-MD) have all touted parts of the $14 billion recently allocated from the law to the Army Corps of Engineers making its way to their districts.
https://news.yahoo.com/republicans-b...203043364.html
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Old 24th October 2022, 06:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
So your defense of him is that he's trying to play political games with arguably the single worst attack on Democracy since WWII?
Rule of so strikes again.

I'm not interested in defending him. He isn't the topic of this thread. But that statement isn't an indicator that Republicans will cut off support for Ukraine. That's reading into it what isn't actually there. It's not a complex argument, I'm not sure why you are struggling to comprehend.
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Old 25th October 2022, 12:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Rule of so strikes again.

I'm not interested in defending him. He isn't the topic of this thread. But that statement isn't an indicator that Republicans will cut off support for Ukraine. That's reading into it what isn't actually there. It's not a complex argument, I'm not sure why you are struggling to comprehend.
For someone not interested in defending McCarthy, you're doing a very good imitation of it:

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He said no blank check. He didn't say no aid. The difference is important.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
McCarthy's statement is a not-so-subtle insinuation that the current administration is giving them a blank check.
Which plays into trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender. Standard political posturing. What's your point?
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs
I think my point was clear as you seem to have understood it: trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender.
Sure. But again, that's just standard politics. This thread isn't about standard politics in general. It isn't about whether Biden is or isn't a profligate spender. It isn't about whether McCarthy's characterization of Biden is accurate. So I'll be a bit more specific: do you have a point that's relevant to the thread? Because that one wasn't.
McCarthy, the possible GOP Speaker of the House come January, isn't included in the topic of a thread titled "Potential GOP support for Ukraine post-Mid Term"?
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Old 25th October 2022, 06:24 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Without going too deeply into this - Nuance and action matters. Stacy Abrams actually had a case to make and made it in a way that calls for actual improvement. Further, she fully abided by law and decency as she made the case that the system is being used to tip the scales, rather than upholding actual fairness, and has abided with the results at every turn. The resemblance to various Republican efforts that have earned notable criticism is only there at the most superficial level. That's more than enough for Republican propagandists who have made it pretty clear that they want to protect their tipping and increase it to scream bloody murder about her, of course.

I will only make a single brief reply in the interest of not derailing the thread. You're welcome to have the last word if you'd like. Abrams's claims were ruled meritless by an Obama-appointed Democrat federal judge. The fact that those claims were based on misunderstanding and distortions, rather than simply fabricated, does not excuse her behavior, IMO. And I frankly don't understand why you feel that claiming the election was stolen from her and refusing to concede are consistent with decency and abiding by the results.
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Old 25th October 2022, 07:49 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McCarthy, the possible GOP Speaker of the House come January, isn't included in the topic of a thread titled "Potential GOP support for Ukraine post-Mid Term"?
Him playing normal political games isn't. Why does that confuse you?
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Old 25th October 2022, 07:51 AM   #60
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Some in the GOP would be more than content with Russia taking over Ukraine, Latvia, Finland, eastern Poland.
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Old 25th October 2022, 08:08 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I will only make a single brief reply in the interest of not derailing the thread. You're welcome to have the last word if you'd like. Abrams's claims were ruled meritless by an Obama-appointed Democrat federal judge. The fact that those claims were based on misunderstanding and distortions, rather than simply fabricated, does not excuse her behavior, IMO. And I frankly don't understand why you feel that claiming the election was stolen from her and refusing to concede are consistent with decency and abiding by the results.
I'm curious how much of this false equivalency you actually believe, and how much is merely rhetorical.

1) was Abrams ever the leader of the Democratic party, as Trump was the leader of the Republicans?

2) after her single court case failed, how often has Abrams made the case that the election was fraudulent and that she really won? How many other Democrats have campaigned on that claim?

3) despite the case being dismissed, there really were problems. Kemp, as GA Sec of State, refused to recuse himself and oversaw his own election. There were massive voter purges in Dem leaning areas of "non-voters" including members of my family who regularly vote. Kemp purged over 560,000 voters on a single day, at least 107,000 of whom should not have been, and won by less than 50,000 votes. Contrast this with Trump's claims, and your pretense that they are the same crumbles even further.
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Old 25th October 2022, 12:50 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He said no blank check. He didn't say no aid. The difference is important.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
McCarthy's statement is a not-so-subtle insinuation that the current administration is giving them a blank check.
My response is directly related to both the topic of this thread and your statement.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Which plays into trying to paint Biden as a profligate spender. Standard political posturing. What's your point?
YOU claim it is just political posturing, which it is but it's still related directly to the topic of this thread which is funding Ukraine support or not by the GOP.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sure. But again, that's just standard politics. This thread isn't about standard politics in general. It isn't about whether Biden is or isn't a profligate spender. It isn't about whether McCarthy's characterization of Biden is accurate. So I'll be a bit more specific: do you have a point that's relevant to the thread? Because that one wasn't.
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Him playing normal political games isn't. Why does that confuse you?
You are the one falsely claiming McCarthy's statement and its suggestion Biden is giving them a "blank check" isn't relevant to this thread when it is exactly that. Why does that confuse you?
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Old 25th October 2022, 12:52 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'm curious how much of this false equivalency you actually believe, and how much is merely rhetorical.

1) was Abrams ever the leader of the Democratic party, as Trump was the leader of the Republicans?

2) after her single court case failed, how often has Abrams made the case that the election was fraudulent and that she really won? How many other Democrats have campaigned on that claim?

3) despite the case being dismissed, there really were problems. Kemp, as GA Sec of State, refused to recuse himself and oversaw his own election. There were massive voter purges in Dem leaning areas of "non-voters" including members of my family who regularly vote. Kemp purged over 560,000 voters on a single day, at least 107,000 of whom should not have been, and won by less than 50,000 votes. Contrast this with Trump's claims, and your pretense that they are the same crumbles even further.
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Old 25th October 2022, 11:37 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I will only make a single brief reply in the interest of not derailing the thread. You're welcome to have the last word if you'd like. Abrams's claims were ruled meritless by an Obama-appointed Democrat federal judge. The fact that those claims were based on misunderstanding and distortions, rather than simply fabricated, does not excuse her behavior, IMO. And I frankly don't understand why you feel that claiming the election was stolen from her and refusing to concede are consistent with decency and abiding by the results.
I think that wareyin already poked at multiple points here, so I'll not poke too much. With that said, I do want to respond to that last bit. For that, though, I'll simply repeat - nuance matters. I honestly have no idea what's difficult to understand about Abrams specifically stating that she refuses to concede and stating exactly why, but that she also recognizes that there's no legal remedy and will abide by the result, for example. Similarly, if one is invoking that particular trial, it doesn't even remotely cover the sum total of the issues that were at hand. Anyways, moving on. That's more than enough tangent time spent.

Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see that Democratic Pregressive Cacus letter which amounts to appeasing Putin is being ignored by most here. No surprise.
Not ignored. The thread is specifically about potential GOP support or the lack thereof should they gain control, though. The Democratic Progressive Caucus is a significantly different story in multiple ways, disappointing as that choice of those who signed on there was.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 04:49 PM   #65
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From the WSJ:
Republican Opposition to Helping Ukraine Grows, WSJ Poll Finds

WASHINGTON—The majority of Americans support continuing aid to Ukraine in what will likely be a prolonged war with Russia, but support is becoming a partisan issue as Republican opposition grows to helping the country, according to a new Wall Street Journal poll. . . .

Some 30% of respondents overall said in the new survey they believe the administration is doing too much to help Ukraine, up from 6% in a March Journal poll. The change was driven by a big shift among GOP voters: 48% of Republicans now say the U.S. is doing too much, up from 6% in the previous survey.

The portion of GOP voters who said the U.S. isn’t doing enough to help Ukraine fell to 17%, a steep drop from 61% in March. . . .

Lawmakers are weighing plans to pass a multibillion-dollar aid package for Ukraine before year’s end, congressional aides said, reflecting fears among Democrats and some Republicans that a new and potentially GOP-controlled Congress would be less supportive of such assistance.
A few points: First, as I have said, there will still be enough Republicans who support aid to Ukraine to continue passing bills, absent a collapse in Democratic support. I've seen several incorrect statements from Youtubers (including from people who ought to know better) that the Speaker of the House can just sit on bills the way the Senate Majority Leader can; again, a majority of House members can simply sign a discharge petition to bring any bill to the floor.

Second, this didn't happen because Trump suddenly came out strongly against aid to Ukraine. It's a natural consequence of a combination of war and sanctions weariness and recent Ukrainian successes, and, as I have previously observed, it's occurring to various degrees in many countries and all across the political spectrum. It's unfortunate that we don't have an FDR or a Reagan to make the case for continuing to support Ukraine, but that's hardly fatal to the cause.

Third, going forward, it's likely that the Ukrainians will be able, if necessary, to get along with significantly less American aid. For example, they already have 34 HIMARS and M270 variants, with 18 more paid for and to be delivered going forward. To date, the Russians have not been able to destroy a single launcher, so the chances of any significant losses in the coming year are negligible. The marginal utility of 50 more HIMARS would be very small; the bottleneck is the ammunition.

Fourth, as I've mentioned before, Biden has complete control of sanctions, and there's nothing a Republican Congress can do about that, absent enough votes to override a certain veto (for those unfamiliar, an override would require 2/3 majorities in both houses).

All that said, I think that passing another large aid bill during the lame-duck session is an excellent idea, not only to avoid potential GOP obstruction next year, but also so that Putin knows the aid will keep flowing all through fiscal 2023.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 05:07 PM   #66
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With Russia now getting more aid from Iran, including drones and rumored short-range ballistic missile, Ukraine needs all the help it can get. Russia is destroying power and water plants in an effort wear down Ukrainians in harsh winter temperatures. Putin really is a monster.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 06:57 PM   #67
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Unfortunately, the US has very little left to send in the way of air defense systems (except for Patriot, which would take years to train the Ukrainians to use), and Europe doesn't have much, either. The problem is that NATO has neglected air defense for decades, due to having such an overwhelming advantage in airpower. Some new systems are on order, but they will take time to produce and deploy.


ETA: There are also currently no land-based, mobile systems capable of stopping Russia's hypersonic missiles, though the US and other countries are working on developing such.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 08:00 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
With Russia now getting more aid from Iran
Doesn't Iran have some stuff closer to home they should really be paying attention to? Are they confident there's not going to be a revolution? Or are the current regime selling weapons to Russia to make quick money so they can have a comfortable exile if it happens?
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Old 4th November 2022, 12:23 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Doesn't Iran have some stuff closer to home they should really be paying attention to? Are they confident there's not going to be a revolution? Or are the current regime selling weapons to Russia to make quick money so they can have a comfortable exile if it happens?
Iran needs Russia as an ally.

Besides, they're just some pesky women who don't know their place getting uppity. A few beheadings, stonings, and prison sentences will soon teach them to get back in the kitchen where they belong.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:33 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
With Russia now getting more aid from Iran, including drones and rumored short-range ballistic missile, Ukraine needs all the help it can get. Russia is destroying power and water plants in an effort wear down Ukrainians in harsh winter temperatures. Putin really is a monster.
Not much can be done about the air attacks for the reasons Spifrie has given.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:35 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Iran needs Russia as an ally.

Besides, they're just some pesky women who don't know their place getting uppity. A few beheadings, stonings, and prison sentences will soon teach them to get back in the kitchen where they belong.
I note that a few alleged progressives are still apologist for Iran, for what reason I can't figure out.
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Old 4th November 2022, 03:37 PM   #72
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Marjorie Taylor Green says if the GOP takes over not one penny more for Ukraine.
ALmost all commentaros say this is nonsense; but still concerned at the lack of distacning themselves from her by GOP Candidates.
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Old 4th November 2022, 05:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Marjorie Taylor Green says if the GOP takes over not one penny more for Ukraine.
ALmost all commentaros say this is nonsense; but still concerned at the lack of distacning themselves from her by GOP Candidates.
Putin will be a very happy ******* with a GOP takeover.
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Old 4th November 2022, 05:10 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Putin will be a very happy ******* with a GOP takeover.
Which will be another false hope for him.
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Old 4th November 2022, 09:51 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Marjorie Taylor Green says if the GOP takes over not one penny more for Ukraine.
ALmost all commentaros say this is nonsense; but still concerned at the lack of distacning themselves from her by GOP Candidates.
The lack of distancing from MTG despite... everything has been an issue for a while.
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Old 17th November 2022, 08:58 AM   #76
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Mitch McConnell has been reelected as Senate Republican leader. Even though the Democrats will hold a bare majority of at most one seat, this is important to Ukraine for several reasons.

First, if a vacancy occurs in the US Senate, most states allow the governor to make an interim appointment until the next election, which could flip control to the Republicans.

Second, moderate Democrat Joe Manchin could switch parties, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread.

Finally, in the unlikely event that Trump tries to get his (remaining) supporters to organize a filibuster of Ukraine aid, McConnell will be able to use his leadership position to whip Republican senators not to go along.

And speaking of whipping, in other good news, pro-Ukraine Representative Tom Emmer has been chosen as Republican Whip (the third-ranking House Republican) over the extremely Trumpy and isolationist Jim Banks (who was my representative when I lived in Indiana ).
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Old 17th November 2022, 03:25 PM   #77
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I wonder if MTG will double down on her "UKraine will not get a dime if the GOP takes over" rant.
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Old 17th November 2022, 04:25 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I wonder if MTG will double down on her "UKraine will not get a dime if the GOP takes over" rant.

Probably.
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Old 18th November 2022, 09:19 AM   #79
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She'll also claim, with no credible evidence, that large amounts of the aid are being stolen.
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Old 18th November 2022, 09:23 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
She'll also claim, with no credible evidence, that large amounts of the aid are being stolen.
It'll be tied together with conspiracy theories over the FTX meltdown and SBF's campaign contributions in ... 3.... 2... 1...
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