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View Poll Results: Democrat lessons for losing '22 midterms?
Far left social agendas suck! 7 41.18%
Stick to populist economics. 3 17.65%
Abortion, abortion, abortion!!! 7 41.18%
Blue lives do actually matter. 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28th October 2022, 06:46 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
BLM has certainly not been kind to our downtown. It's funny how they're always there when it's time for rioting and looting and arson, but nowhere to be seen when the homeless in our community need shelter and support.
Funny how the Proud Boys and other right-wing militia groups where always there for rioting but nowhere to be seen when the homeless in our community need shelter and support
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Old 28th October 2022, 07:27 PM   #82
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If the Dems do lose big in the midterms then I can only conclude that there are very, very few people with a liberal outlook left in the USA.

You would think that the overturning of Roe v Wade would motivate people to go out and vote.
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Old 28th October 2022, 07:48 PM   #83
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My predictions are that the Dems lose both houses by a reasonable margin, then within a year laws will be passed in several states outlawing same sex marriage (including the automatic annulment or non-recognition of existing ones) and within two years there will be laws against gay sex in several states. The Supreme Court will uphold all of these. By the end of the decade the USA will have been gerrymandered into an effectively one party state.

Last edited by Robin; 28th October 2022 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 28th October 2022, 08:20 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You would think that the overturning of Roe v Wade would motivate people to go out and vote.
...if there were somebody to vote for on that issue. What the total lack of any kind of plan or preparation or prevention or response from the Democrats has demonstrated is that there isn't. And it's like that not only on that issue but also on the other biggest & most important ones.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If the Dems do lose big in the midterms then I can only conclude that there are very, very few people with a liberal outlook left in the USA.
That depends on what you mean by "liberal".

Righties use it to mean lefties, and possibly anybody else who isn't a righty and whom they want to accuse of being a lefty. By their definition, liberals are most of the populace of this country, so, no, it would be wrong to conclude that there aren't many of us. The correct conclusion would be that we have practically no representation in the two major parties.

Lefties use it to mean people who are definitely not lefties and keep either caving in to the right or just agreeing with it, even if they make some fake-left noises once in a while; the people who call themselves "moderates" or "centrists". This is the group that holds all the power in the DP, so yes, their loss would indeed be a symptom of their lack of support in the general public.
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Old 28th October 2022, 09:07 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...if there were somebody to vote for on that issue. What the total lack of any kind of plan or preparation or prevention or response from the Democrats has demonstrated is that there isn't.
Well of course there is somebody to vote for.

The plan to overturn R v W was to put a sufficient number of justices in the court that would overturn it.

The first thing needed to start on the path back will involve allowing Dems the ability to appoint to that court.

Anyone who doesn't vote in this election is effectively supporting the overturning of R v W
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Old 28th October 2022, 09:25 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Anyone who doesn't vote in this election is effectively supporting the overturning of R v W
...by failing to support those who've already been effectively supporting it.

There's a reason why the DP's immediate, and still to this point only, reaction to that "news" (after having already done nothing about it before it happened) was to send out a bunch of fundraising messages.

Last edited by Delvo; 28th October 2022 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 28th October 2022, 11:01 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...by failing to support those who've already been effectively supporting it.

There's a reason why the DP's immediate, and still to this point only, reaction to that "news" (after having already done nothing about it before it happened) was to send out a bunch of fundraising messages.

False. Just last week Biden said that he will push the next U.S. Congress to codify the abortion rights protections outlined in Roe v. Wade if Democrats keep control of the legislature. To say that there's no one to vote for on that issue is ludicrous.
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Old 29th October 2022, 05:02 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If the Dems do lose big in the midterms then I can only conclude that there are very, very few people with a liberal outlook left in the USA.

You would think that the overturning of Roe v Wade would motivate people to go out and vote.
The balance is still going to be about 55% liberal. But because you have to divide up states into sections for electors and for congress, there will always be more red districts. Rural people are conservatives. It is not so much gerrymandering, it is just that there are too many liberals in cities. it does not help that 70% vote for democrats there. In rural districts they only need to get 50-55% to get the republican.

The senate is slanted conservative due to the constitution.
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Old 29th October 2022, 06:28 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
You would think that the overturning of Roe v Wade would motivate people to go out and vote.
In a perfect world, yes. But voting against only goes so far. The GOP could eat babies on live TV at this point and it wouldn't budge the votes an inch, because anyone watching is already sold one way or the other. They've fully demonized the Democrats, the Democrats don't really need to do any demonizing of the GOP, but that only pulls them even. The GOP also has the evangelicals, white supremacists and other bigots supporting them, because they're taking active and consistent steps to enable those groups to do what they do. The Dems can only promise that if they win... they'll keep trying to convince themselves to accomplish something.

Originally Posted by Stacyhs
False. Just last week Biden said that he will push the next U.S. Congress to codify the abortion rights protections outlined in Roe v. Wade if Democrats keep control of the legislature. To say that there's no one to vote for on that issue is ludicrous.
*tiny confetti*
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Old 29th October 2022, 07:57 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
False. Just last week Biden said that he will push the next U.S. Congress to codify the abortion rights protections outlined in Roe v. Wade if Democrats keep control of the legislature. To say that there's no one to vote for on that issue is ludicrous.
You do realize that a big part of why Roe was overturned was because the Supreme Court saw it as unconstitutional meddling in state business? They will certainly see any attempts to codify Roe in the same light, and on that case you'll lose 6-3 instead of 5-4 as Roberts will certainly agree.

The Democrats hoped to nationalize this election over abortion; how's that working out? The real solution for pro-choice activists is to focus on the states; unfortunately the party has neglected the states, with Democrats outnumbered overall in state legislatures by about 33%. The Republicans have more governors (28-22) and more trifectas (24-14) where they control both the governorship and both houses of the legislature. The Democrats have a LOT of work to do, but in states with ballot propositions they can circumvent the legislature by going to the people.
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Old 29th October 2022, 12:35 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
You do realize that a big part of why Roe was overturned was because the Supreme Court saw it as unconstitutional meddling in state business? They will certainly see any attempts to codify Roe in the same light, and on that case you'll lose 6-3 instead of 5-4 as Roberts will certainly agree.

The Democrats hoped to nationalize this election over abortion; how's that working out? The real solution for pro-choice activists is to focus on the states; unfortunately the party has neglected the states, with Democrats outnumbered overall in state legislatures by about 33%. The Republicans have more governors (28-22) and more trifectas (24-14) where they control both the governorship and both houses of the legislature. The Democrats have a LOT of work to do, but in states with ballot propositions they can circumvent the legislature by going to the people.
Yes, I do realize that but my reply was in response to Delvo's claim that "There's a reason why the DP's immediate, and still to this point only, reaction to that "news" (after having already done nothing about it before it happened) was to send out a bunch of fundraising messages."

As your point is true, then all the kvetching about the Dems not having codified Roe when the allegedly could have is much ado about nothing.

I suspect and hope that, if and when, the SC eventually returns to a less right-wing make-up...IOW, Thomas, Alito, etc are gone...it will revisit this and reinstate a woman's right to her own body. I think the government...state or federal...telling a woman what she can and can't do with her own body is the epitome of denying her right to privacy.
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Old 29th October 2022, 08:53 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
...by failing to support those who've already been effectively supporting it.
No, by supporting those who overturned it.

Most Americans appear to have this mad idea that not voting means remaining neutral

If a party tries to destroy democracy and someone doesn't vote against them at the next opportunity then that person is giving active approval to the attempt to destroy democracy.

If a party takes away a particular right and a person does not vote against that party at the next opportunity then they are giving active approval to the removal of that right.

The decision not to vote is still a decision.

I'm glad I live in a proper democracy where voting is compulsory.

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Old 29th October 2022, 09:04 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
In a perfect world, yes.
Nonsense, it doesn't take a perfect world to get out and vote for an issue you care about.
Quote:
But voting against only goes so far.
It only needs to go so far. It only needs to go as far as denying the Republicans control of both houses at a time when they could reasonably expect to get control of at least one.

That would make them think twice about moving to overturn other rights.
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Old 29th October 2022, 09:17 PM   #94
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Democrats were lukewarm about Hilary so they stayed home in droves

If they had made the effort and voted then Roe v Wade would still be in place and safe for decades to come.

The evangelicals and Catholics probably weren't even lukewarm about Trump in 2016. But they only cared about snagging the SCOTUS spots that were about to become vacant.

Don't believe those who try to make you pessimistic about what can be achieved by getting people to get out and vote.

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Old 30th October 2022, 06:53 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Robin
It only needs to go so far. It only needs to go as far as
Needs don't enter into it. This is what you get. This is as far as voting against will go. If it's not enough, if you need more because you're trying to climb that hill with a lukewarm candidate whose deal is no one actually likes them much and they aren't even going to promise to make anything better but can only (probably) stop things actively getting worse, then what you need is someone better. It's not the voters failing you, but the other way around.

Anyone else feel this line of argumentation is amazingly like trying to convince a slacker to get off their ass and get some work done? They've identified the bare minimum for a project to technically be within acceptable parameters provided everyone else picks up their slack, and they will be damned if they put in a jot more effort than that.

Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The evangelicals and Catholics probably weren't even lukewarm about Trump in 2016. But they only cared about snagging the SCOTUS spots that were about to become vacant.
Which Trump delivered. He (McConnell actually) didn't find a half-compromise middle of the road candidate who would be broadly acceptable to interests on both sides of the aisle and debate their post in good faith and in a bipartisan spirit. He accomplished what they wanted him to.

Imagine if the Democrats would do that for a change.
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Old 31st October 2022, 07:47 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If the Dems do lose big in the midterms then I can only conclude that there are very, very few people with a liberal outlook left in the USA.

You would think that the overturning of Roe v Wade would motivate people to go out and vote.
I don't think it's that simple.

I think the Democrats overestimated (perhaps drastically) the number of liberals for whom abortion is a "one issue vote."

Abortion is THE one issue vote for the Right, to the point that you can pretty much run just on "Abortion bad grrrr *shakes fist at sky*" and I think the Democrats assumed the inverse was equally true.

Sad fact, and this has nothing to do with MY personal opinion on the matter, but enough people might dislike the Roe V Wade overturn but not consider it a deal breaker for it to not matter that much.
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Old 31st October 2022, 07:55 AM   #97
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The Republicans understand that people vote more on their day to day life than on their causes.

The Democrats stubbornly refuse to believe that everyone isn't as virginally idealistic as they are/pretend to be.

Here's the sad fact. You don't get or not get an abortion every week. You buy groceries and gas every week.
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Old 31st October 2022, 09:56 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Republicans understand that people vote more on their day to day life than on their causes.

The Democrats stubbornly refuse to believe that everyone isn't as virginally idealistic as they are/pretend to be.

Here's the sad fact. You don't get or not get an abortion every week. You buy groceries and gas every week.
It isn't their choice of issues as much as they refuse to get into the trenches on anything at all. They have the benefit of being right about almost everything but don't want to make a visceral case for it to convince people it is in their self interest.

It's like someone got together the best five basketball players in history and they have a coach that thinks dunking should be outlawed and forbids them from shooting three pointers. That kind of failure to adapt to political reality.
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Old 31st October 2022, 10:16 AM   #99
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It all makes much more sense if you notice that both parties get most of their money from the same donors.
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Old 31st October 2022, 10:19 AM   #100
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Yes yes "both sides" we know.
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Old 31st October 2022, 12:16 PM   #101
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Every Republican ad here is the same.

"I'm proud I fought for our freedom to not wear a mask. I'm proud I fought for our freedom to continue to congregate in public during a pandemic. I'm proud I fought against teaching children that racism exists. I'm proud of hating illegal immigrants."

Imagine being asked to do the simplest, most basic, core human decency things possible, not doing them, and still whining about it a year later.
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Old 31st October 2022, 05:11 PM   #102
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If yard signs are any measure, it looks like a Dem steamroll over the Republicans. Even in the suburbs the signs are two to one for the Dems. That's very unusual.

Of course the Republicans this go around are total loons. The SOS candidate believes abortions are a satanic ritual and Democrats are demon-possessed.
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Old 1st November 2022, 06:53 AM   #103
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I see nothing but Zeldin signs here. Maybe a few for our incumbent state assemblyman who is a Democrat.

And all the ads are about cashless bail and crime. They are just trying to scare the bejeezus out of the white suburbanites. It doesn't help that Hochul is a functionary who can't get a room full of 8-year-olds excited with a bag of candy.
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Old 1st November 2022, 07:10 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I think the #1 lesson is to not support the most extreme far-right candidate in the Republican primary.
The doubled down on that strategy post Trump, I don't see them learning that lesson anytime soon.

That being said, they should really learn:
A. The Presidents party always looses in the midterm.




Y. Actually pay attention to the polls that ask what folks care about.
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Old 1st November 2022, 11:44 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think the Democrats overestimated (perhaps drastically) the number of liberals for whom abortion is a "one issue vote."
The passion was mostly on one side I agree, but maybe because there was no need to be passionate about being pro-abortion/choice?

Quote:
Abortion is THE one issue vote for the Right, to the point that you can pretty much run just on "Abortion bad grrrr *shakes fist at sky*" and I think the Democrats assumed the inverse was equally true.

Sad fact, and this has nothing to do with MY personal opinion on the matter, but enough people might dislike the Roe V Wade overturn but not consider it a deal breaker for it to not matter that much.
Everybody seems to miss that this throws the issue back to the states, where it suddenly matters unlike the last 50 years. I see a lot more effort by Democratic state legislature candidates; back around 2004 there were several races where the Democrats failed to field a candidate.

And there will also be numerous state-level ballot propositions in 2024 (and probably some in 2023) that should boost turnout for the Democrats (assuming polling in support of abortion proves out).
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Old 2nd November 2022, 06:31 AM   #106
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"Throwing the issue back to the state" is how we got the Civil War.

If the tax on Marmoset Fur Hats sold on a Sunday is 6% in Delaware but 7% in Ohio is something we can work with. Basic human rights being different from state to state is not.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 08:53 AM   #107
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"Throwing it back to the states" means "throwing it to the groups like ALEC and The Federalist Society" who basically act like a de facto federal government. Let's not pretend each state is acting of its own accord.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 08:55 AM   #108
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Well yeah it's transparent. It's why I've never once heard a Republican defend a state's right to set it's own gun control laws.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 09:12 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Abortion is THE one issue vote for the Right, to the point that you can pretty much run just on "Abortion bad grrrr *shakes fist at sky*" and I think the Democrats assumed the inverse was equally true.
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The Republicans understand that people vote more on their day to day life than on their causes.

[snip]

Here's the sad fact. You don't get or not get an abortion every week. You buy groceries and gas every week.
Iím having trouble reconciling these two back-to-back posts.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 09:57 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Iím having trouble reconciling these two back-to-back posts.
"Republicans will do things against their own best interest to specifically tweak the other side, while Democrats rarely do the reverse." is one of those things I didn't think I had to specifically state anymore.

My point was simply that while the Democrats on big issues is noble, and I mean sincerely and without snark, like I said most people aren't getting abortions all the time. Most people aren't under going gender reassignment surgery. Most people aren't at the border on either side of it. And to be clear so nobody @s me none of those are unimportant thing. But they aren't... "Everyday life" things if that makes sense.

And also because Republicans are idiots who probably can't explain WHY they are voting in Republican to any degree that is any more honest and meaningful then anything else they say.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 10:21 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And also because Republicans are idiots who probably can't explain WHY they are voting in Republican to any degree that is any more honest and meaningful then anything else they say.
Almost all voters come across as ignorant fools if you ask them to explain their political opinions, particularly when you don't share their politics.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 03:38 PM   #112
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Old 2nd November 2022, 04:33 PM   #113
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Even if the Democrats are ahead in the early voting as that shows (if the votes have even started getting counted yet), that still doesn't mean that the Republicans can't overwhelm it with later voting.

NYT did have an article recently breaking down the polls in an interesting way I haven't seen elsewhere, though. While polls in general including NYT's show more people wanting Republicans in general, most people in most places don't like the individual Republican that it's been narrowed down to for them.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 05:10 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, we do care about them... but intelligent and informed people recognize
the facts that inflation is rampant in many countries and is the result of "when the Federal Reserve sets too low of an interest rate or when the growth
of money supply increases too rapidly."


This is why the Fed. Reserve has raised interest rates in order to slow
down inflation. It's a painful but necessary action much like a root canal
is temporarily painful but needs to be done for a person's long term health.

Alright! This is so cool!

There's an equation in the article called, The Taylor Rule.

R = P + (0.5*Y) + 0.5(P - 2) + 2

P is inflation, so at 8% that gives 8% + 3% + 2% = 13%.

Now the Y = (Real GDP - Projected GDP) / Projected GDP. I don't know
about that, so another 3% maybe, making the Fed Funds Rate 16%.
Given the banks charge about half that and you'll see Mortgages at 24%
or higher.

Mortgage backed securities or junk bonds, doesn't matter.

I gotta get me some of that. Yum, yum.
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Old 2nd November 2022, 05:22 PM   #115
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Here's one to consider: Should the Democrats push Biden and/or Harris to commit to not running in 2024 after the election? George Will (a never-Trumper since 2016) has a Democracy dies behind paywalls article arguing so; quotes from Raw Story (Talking about the student loan giveaway and Biden's false claim that it was passed by Congress):

Quote:
"Biden was not merely again embellishing his achievements," Will wrote. "This is not just another of his verbal fender benders. There is no less-than-dismaying explanation for his complete confusion. What vote? Who voted?

"After repeated unilateral extensions of the moratorium on loan repayments until election season, Biden unilaterally implemented the windfall for millions of voters," he added. "Congress was not involved in this cataract of money from the Treasury, in violation of the Constitutionís appropriations clause."

Will went on to share his opinion of the president's words. "It is frightening that Biden does not know, or remember, what he recently did regarding an immensely important policy," he wrote. "He must be presumed susceptible to future episodes of similar bewilderment. He should leave the public stage on Jan. 20, 2025."
Will is an unlikely ally of the Democrats but probably deserves to be taken as a Dutch uncle here. As for me, it seems obvious that Biden needs to step aside in 2024, but what about Harris? She could run if Joe steps aside but then there is the delicate matter of whether Biden endorses? And what if Joe actually steps aside before 2024, making Harris the President?
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Old 2nd November 2022, 05:36 PM   #116
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Old 2nd November 2022, 05:46 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Throwing the issue back to the state" is how we got the Civil War.

If the tax on Marmoset Fur Hats sold on a Sunday is 6% in Delaware but 7% in Ohio is something we can work with. Basic human rights being different from state to state is not.
If your goal is to get back to Roe legally, you're looking at the same long, uphill climb that the anti-abortion folks faced. Have fun, I will be dead before that happens.

I keep telling people that the GOP fallback (which the Democrats will have to accept in most places) is going to be a ban somewhere in the 15-20 weeks after conception period in all but the most conservative of states. An absolute ban may pass in a few states but there is no way a federal ban will pass (and if it did it would probably be found unconstitutional by a 9-0 margin on the SC), and there is no possibility of punishing citizens who travel to other states to seek an abortion that is illegal in their home state. Individual legislators may try to pass such bills but they will obviously fall afoul of the interstate commerce clause.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 06:11 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My point was simply that while the Democrats on big issues is noble, and I mean sincerely and without snark, like I said most people aren't getting abortions all the time. Most people aren't under going gender reassignment surgery. Most people aren't at the border on either side of it. And to be clear so nobody @s me none of those are unimportant thing. But they aren't... "Everyday life" things if that makes sense.
That's why Republicans start those fights. They don't have any actual ideas for "kitchen table issues", so they go off about transgender people using bathrooms. When Democrats respond to it, the Republicans say "look at them worried about letting transgenders near your children instead of dealing with inflation!" It's just gaslighting.

Lake is doing that with the election conspiracy theories. She campaigns on them, rants about them at events, tweets about them, etc. When a reporter tries to get her to provide proof of any election fraud, she says "you liberals are obsessed with 2020. I want to talk about what is important to Arizonans."

And Democrats fall for it over and over and over. Because they need to engage in "the process", no matter how badly the Republicans are gaming them. They need to stop engaging with the Republicans directly. Pre-emptively go after them for having nothing but scaremongering.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 07:08 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

My point was simply that while the Democrats on big issues is noble, and I mean sincerely and without snark, like I said most people aren't getting abortions all the time. Most people aren't under going gender reassignment surgery. Most people aren't at the border on either side of it. And to be clear so nobody @s me none of those are unimportant thing. But they aren't... "Everyday life" things if that makes sense.

And also because Republicans are idiots who probably can't explain WHY they are voting in Republican to any degree that is any more honest and meaningful then anything else they say.
Maybe a way of putting it is that the Democrats need to stop assuming an informed electorate driven primarily by reason and the big picture.

I don't mean that as an insult to the electorate. The world is vast and confusing and to expect the average person to consider abstract and nuanced positions while they are trying to put food on the table and quell their own natural anxiety over their lives is unrealistic.

Which might be a good way to explain my growing contempt for the people steering this ship.
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Old 3rd November 2022, 07:18 AM   #120
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