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View Poll Results: Democrat lessons for losing '22 midterms?
Far left social agendas suck! 7 41.18%
Stick to populist economics. 3 17.65%
Abortion, abortion, abortion!!! 7 41.18%
Blue lives do actually matter. 0 0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 9th November 2022, 09:11 AM   #281
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I'm starting to smell another 50/50 Senate.
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:12 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Do I have to eat my words? I forget who they tried this strategy with in order to find out how it worked
Even if those candidates didn't win, its a gross strategy to support MAGA canddiates in primaries and then go around telling everyone what an existential crisis those candidates are in the general. Nevermind, its ok, because Dems never try to scare voters on purpose as a strategy.

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Old 9th November 2022, 09:12 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm starting to smell another 50/50 Senate.
Which is essentially a loss for the Reps giving the history of midterms. The average gain for the out of power party is 4 seats gained in the senate.
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:33 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
In my opinion, the biggest mistake that the Democrats made was....

Not pushing for Puerto Rico to be made a state.
...
Why? Well, putting aside the problem of having millions of citizens denied a full say in how the country is run.... from a strategic point of view it would have helped the Democrats. A Puerto Rican state PROBABLY would have elected/appointed Democratic congressmen (at least for the next couple of election cycles). That would have certainly helped them keep control of congress when the races have been as close as they are. Plus, in polling, most Americans support statehood. (It may not have been as important as inflation or abortion in the midterms, but anything the democrats can highlight that voters approve of is a good thing.)

I wish that would have happened, but it simply wasn't possible with the filibuster rule.
Quite possible that Moscow Mitch would have had it filibustered.

But even then, as I pointed out it it was an issue that the majority of American voters supported, and anything that detracts from things like inflation is a good thing. And its obvious to us that Republicans are into voter suppression, but seeing them vote against Puerto Rican statehood would really highlight how "anti-democratic" they are.

(And maybe it just might bring back a few latino voters who have migrated to the republican side)
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:35 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Even if those candidates didn't win, its a gross strategy to support MAGA canddiates in primaries and then go around telling everyone what an existential crisis those candidates are in the general.
Agreed, but that is a different question than whether or not it is a successful strategy, which, unfortunately, it appears to be.

Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Nevermind, its ok, because Dems never try to scare voters on purpose as a strategy.
Yeah, it's a dirty trick on par with most of Republican dirty tricks, but probably not as bad a MAGA SOP.
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:37 AM   #286
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Piddling little detail that Democrats tell voters to be scared of things that are actually happening or that could happen, instead of the Republican strategy of screeching about how brown people are crossing the border to teach critical race theory or whatever.
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:44 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Piddling little detail that Democrats tell voters to be scared of things that are actually happening or that could happen, instead of the Republican strategy of screeching about how brown people are crossing the border to teach critical race theory or whatever.
ahhell has a point that Dems should not be supporting legit threats in primary, regardless of whether or not it is a winning strategy. The ends don't justify the means and, in this case, the risks are still very high even if it is mostly successful.
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Old 9th November 2022, 09:56 AM   #288
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You took a hard turn from "fear" into "threats" there.

"Vote for us or democracy as we know it is at risk" or "Vote for us or a brown drag queen will sneak into your house and teach your child to hate himself for being white" are not equal things to tell voters to be worried about.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:08 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Even if those candidates didn't win, its a gross strategy to support MAGA canddiates in primaries and then go around telling everyone what an existential crisis those candidates are in the general.
Supporting the weaker opposition candidate during the primaries is an age-old political tactic that both parties have long engaged. It's not one with which I have a particular problem, the risks inherent in it notwithstanding.

And I was fine with the Democrats doing it this year with the MAGA candidates because, quite frankly, if this country is going to choose fascism, let's just get it over with already.

Quote:
Nevermind, its ok, because Dems never try to scare voters on purpose as a strategy.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:19 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Supporting the weaker opposition candidate during the primaries is an age-old political tactic that both parties have long engaged. It's not one with which I have a particular problem, the risks inherent in it notwithstanding.

And I was fine with the Democrats doing it this year with the MAGA candidates because, quite frankly, if this country is going to choose fascism, let's just get it over with already.
Yup. There's a reason Trump was promoting how much better of a candidate Sanders was over Clinton during the 2016 primaries.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:19 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You took a hard turn from "fear" into "threats" there.
I was never talking about "fear". The election-denying, authoritarian MAGA candidates that the Democrats were supporting in the primaries are, or were, legitimate threats. It is, apparently, a good strategy to support them if you want to win elections. It is a bad strategy if you want to want to win ...honorably, I guess.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Vote for us or democracy as we know it is at risk" or "Vote for us or a brown drag queen will sneak into your house and teach your child to hate himself for being white" are not equal things to tell voters to be worried about.
No, but you're leaving out the first part. "Vote for this wacko who wants to put Democracy as we know it at risk. <time passes> Okay, NOW, Vote for us or Democracy as we know it is at risk". Still not equal things to tell voters to be worried about, but also not equal to just "Vote for us or democracy as we know it is at risk"
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:24 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yup. There's a reason Trump was promoting how much better of a candidate Sanders was over Clinton during the 2016 primaries.
Ohh Rush Limbaugh was pulling this **** in 2008. He tried to convince his listeners to vote in the primaries for Obama over HRC... didn't work out so well.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:26 AM   #293
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Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee chairman Sean Patrick Maloney just conceded his seat in NY-18. Maloney was the centrist who gave up his district because it became a little redder and forced out one-term progressive Mondaire Jones because that district was "safe blue". So, not only did Maloney give up on a district centrists are supposed to be able to win, he let Republicans take a second seat. Republicans may end up flipping 5 seats in New York.

As I understand, Maloney went rogue and upset people in every wing of the Democratic Party, but the leadership didn't seem to do anything about it.

If the Republicans win the House by 5 or fewer seats, New York Democrats have some questions to ask themselves.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:31 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yup. There's a reason Trump was promoting how much better of a candidate Sanders was over Clinton during the 2016 primaries.
Boy, did that backfire, right?
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:36 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Boy, did that backfire, right?
Not really, it simply failed. Had Trump's push for Sanders as the Dem candidate succeeded, he would have faced a weaker candidate. Clinton got far more votes in the primary than Sanders, and millions more votes in the general than Trump, despite losing the EC.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:44 AM   #296
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Edit: No, I'm not relitigating 2016. Obviously, people need to keep telling themselves how awesome their candidate was.

I will say there is a parallel I am afraid of: platforming. Sanders getting a platform like he did put things like Medicare 4 All and raising the minimum wage in the national conversation. What is putting election-denying lunatics on the national stage going to do?
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:47 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
But the Electoral College is how the president is chosen. Again, how can you say Sanders was the weaker candidate? He didn't lose to a game show host.
No he couldn't even get to the table to play the game with the Game Show host.

You simply cannot be not understanding this.

I've never lost to Trump, by your logic I'm a better candidate than Hillary.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:54 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
It’s looking like Lauren “I’m ok with my husband showing his willy to minors” Boebert is losing, 51-49 with 93% reporting. Now she can go back to poisoning customers at her dive restaurant.
No....no she can't.

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(R-Colo.) and her husband announced on Thursday that their gun-themed restaurant, Shooters Grill, was closing.
That was July 14th. She'll have to find some other profession to be a dumb ass at.
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:55 AM   #299
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She's be a talking head on a far right Youtube Channel or start the Parlor equivalent to OnlyFans, she's be fine
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Old 9th November 2022, 10:58 AM   #300
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I think the lesson REPUBLICANS should take is that with Ranked Choice Voting, they would have gotten their Red Wave.
But, of course, that's the last thing they will chose to learn.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:03 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Boy, did that backfire, right?
How so? Trump barely beat Clinton in the EC, while losing the popular vote with room to spare. I'm sure he would have preferred to run a race he could have painted as freedom vs communism, and understandably so (the preference, not the bs characterization). I support Sanders, but he would have been badly beaten.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:05 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
How so? Trump barely beat Clinton in the EC, while losing the popular vote with room to spare. I'm sure he would have preferred to run a race he could have painted as freedom vs communism, and understandably so (the preference, not the bs characterization). I support Sanders, but he would have been badly beaten.
It backfired because everything didn't burn down so the glorious progressive revolution didn't rise from the ashes.

The fact that Sanders can't even get a seat at the table is why progressive's love him, so they can maintain the illusion that as soon as the evil centrist let him in their club... which he also openly mocks and hates but never mind that... everything will be fixed.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:12 AM   #303
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I think the lesson for the Democrats is that midterms are always bad and that actually they held up better here than anyone expected. It's almost as if the Republican party turning themselves over to a bunch of conspiracy theorists loons backfired....
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:25 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I was never talking about "fear". The election-denying, authoritarian MAGA candidates that the Democrats were supporting in the primaries are, or were, legitimate threats. It is, apparently, a good strategy to support them if you want to win elections. It is a bad strategy if you want to want to win ...honorably, I guess.
It's a bit of a stretch to say Democrats were supporting "election-denying, authoritatian MAGA candidates" in the primaries.

In one of the best publicized races to which you might be referring, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) ran ads against Republican John Gibbs, saying he is "too conservative for western Michigan". Those advertisements were truthful. Yes, they relied upon the knee-jerk stupidity of GOP primary voters to react by voting for the "too conservative for western Michigan" candidate instead of the incumbent Republican (Peter Meijer) who had voted to impeach Trump, but encouraging your opposition to sabotage themselves is perfectly fair.

More questionable were the Senate Majority PAC's ads portraying Republican Chuck Morse as a "sleazy politician". It's hard to argue against the message of those ads, but Morse was running against election denier and extremist Don Bolduc, who, if he fails to qualify as a sleazy politician, fails only because he isn't much of a politician. After Bolduc won his primary, he had to run ads denying his positions on multiple issues, including Social Security, which often ran back to back with ads supporting his opponent (Maggie Hassan) in which Bolduc was shown saying the very things he was denying he had said.

In Maryland, Democrats ran ads saying
Meet Dan Cox, Donald Trump's handpicked candidate for Maryland Governor. Cox worked with Trump trying to prove the last election was a fraud. 100% pro life. He's fighting to end abortion in Maryland, and Cox will protect the Second Amendment at all costs, refusing to support any federal restrictions on guns. Even pushing to put armed guards in every school. Dan Cox—too close to Trump—too conservative for Maryland. D. G. A. Action is responsible for the content of this advertising.
That ad was perfectly honest, and perfectly fair. Once again, they relied upon the knee-jerk stupidity of GOP primary voters to react by supporting Dan Cox against the far more moderate Republican who had been endorsed by term-limited Republican Governor Larry Hogan.

David Turner, communications director for the Democratic Governors Association, described a general strategy:
Quote:
“The sense that we were quote-unquote buying for GOP candidates in these states is not how it was operated,” said Turner....the DGA looked for GOP candidates with solid polling leads who were endorsed by Donald Trump — basically the people who were going to win anyway — then bought ads detailing their far-right positions. “We didn’t want to let them be able to pivot,” he said.
Perfectly fair.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:28 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
And I was fine with the Democrats doing it this year with the MAGA candidates because, quite frankly, if this country is going to choose fascism, let's just get it over with already.
That is also a fair point.
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Old 9th November 2022, 11:44 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I think the lesson for the Democrats is that midterms are always bad and that actually they held up better here than anyone expected. It's almost as if the Republican party turning themselves over to a bunch of conspiracy theorists loons backfired....
That's how I see it. Seems like a sharp loss for MAGA, at least so far.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:03 PM   #307
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In the end, most of the Dems woes were, to use a famous phase"It was the economy..in this case inflation...stupid.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:04 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I think the lesson for the Democrats is that midterms are always bad and that actually they held up better here than anyone expected. It's almost as if the Republican party turning themselves over to a bunch of conspiracy theorists loons backfired....
Patticluar given how much Inflation was hurting them.
A lot of ballot splliting was going on.
And I find this idea that suppoting extremist to help you win to be an incredibly stupid and dangerous tactic.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:08 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
That's how I see it. Seems like a sharp loss for MAGA, at least so far.
A lot of ballot spliting were more traditonal Republicans won, but the Trumpers lost .
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:10 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
How so? Trump barely beat Clinton in the EC, while losing the popular vote with room to spare. I'm sure he would have preferred to run a race he could have painted as freedom vs communism, and understandably so (the preference, not the bs characterization). I support Sanders, but he would have been badly beaten.
Sarcasm. It obviously didn't backfire because the Orange Weakling won. Like I said, I don't want to relitigate this.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:13 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
That's how I see it. Seems like a sharp loss for MAGA, at least so far.
True, but I still find the tactic of supporting an extremist inthe primary of the other party to make it easier for your party to win in the general election to be stupid and very dangerous. That general idea was tried by some left wing Parties in Germany inthe early 30's..did not work out too well.
and with a couple of religous wackos apparenty to get high government posts, Isreal is in for sme rougher then usual waters.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:22 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by W.D.Clinger View Post
It's a bit of a stretch to say Democrats were supporting "election-denying, authoritatian MAGA candidates" in the primaries.

In one of the best publicized races to which you might be referring, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) ran ads against Republican John Gibbs, saying he is "too conservative for western Michigan". Those advertisements were truthful. Yes, they relied upon the knee-jerk stupidity of GOP primary voters to react by voting for the "too conservative for western Michigan" candidate instead of the incumbent Republican (Peter Meijer) who had voted to impeach Trump, but encouraging your opposition to sabotage themselves is perfectly fair.
That's especially good if they believed Meijer was going to lose anyway. This way, the first thing the general public heard about Gibbs was "too extreme". First impressions are a big deal.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:36 PM   #313
The_Animus
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I was never talking about "fear". The election-denying, authoritarian MAGA candidates that the Democrats were supporting in the primaries are, or were, legitimate threats. It is, apparently, a good strategy to support them if you want to win elections. It is a bad strategy if you want to want to win ...honorably, I guess.


No, but you're leaving out the first part. "Vote for this wacko who wants to put Democracy as we know it at risk. <time passes> Okay, NOW, Vote for us or Democracy as we know it is at risk". Still not equal things to tell voters to be worried about, but also not equal to just "Vote for us or democracy as we know it is at risk"
Pretty much all the Republican candidates were a threat to democracy. Some are just better at hiding it than others but at the end of the day the legislation and policies they support would have been the same.

So really the options were a less obvious threat with a higher chance of winning the general and an obvious threat with a lower chance of winning the general.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:43 PM   #314
Dread Pirate Roberts
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Were any of the Republican ads on crime not ridiculous baiting?
This one - it's not just crime - is total insanity. I admit that I had just hit the pipe, so it took me a minute to realize this wasn't some fever dream I was having. It popped up in a YouTube video I was watching. Stephen Miller is involved with this PAC, huge surprise.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


EDIT: I seem to always have problems linking videos, so if someone can tell the trick I'd appreciate it. I put the link inside yt /yt tags, but it's not playing when I hit play so here is a link for it.

https://youtu.be/I_AOSW68eFY

Last edited by Dread Pirate Roberts; 9th November 2022 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 12:56 PM   #315
Dread Pirate Roberts
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think the lesson REPUBLICANS should take is that with Ranked Choice Voting, they would have gotten their Red Wave.
But, of course, that's the last thing they will chose to learn.
That was a question on the ballot here - move to open primaries and ranked choice general elections. As of now, the Yes vote is in the lead.

But then is has to be approved by voters in 2024, and then there's another step after that I can't remember right now.

Last edited by Dread Pirate Roberts; 9th November 2022 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:07 PM   #316
Donal
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think the lesson REPUBLICANS should take is that with Ranked Choice Voting, they would have gotten their Red Wave.
But, of course, that's the last thing they will chose to learn.
That's a big assumption. Peltola is still winning big in Alaska. She's almost at 50% now. It wouldn't take many of Begich's voters to prefer her to Palin to hold the seat. RCV makes the individual candidates a bigger deal than party affiliation.
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:08 PM   #317
plague311
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Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
This one - it's not just crime - is total insanity. I admit that I had just hit the pipe, so it took me a minute to realize this wasn't some fever dream I was having. It popped up in a YouTube video I was watching. Stephen Miller is involved with this PAC, huge surprise.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


EDIT: I seem to always have problems linking videos, so if someone can tell the trick I'd appreciate it. I put the link inside yt /yt tags, but it's not playing when I hit play so here is a link for it.

https://youtu.be/I_AOSW68eFY
You don't put the full link in the brackets, just the ending part. In your case I_AOSW68eFY

So it would be yt I_AOSW68eFY /yt with the brackets.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:12 PM   #318
Dread Pirate Roberts
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
You don't put the full link in the brackets, just the ending part. In your case I_AOSW68eFY

So it would be yt I_AOSW68eFY /yt with the brackets.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Thanks plague!
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:20 PM   #319
plague311
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Originally Posted by Dread Pirate Roberts View Post
Thanks plague!
You bet, any time.
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Old 9th November 2022, 01:23 PM   #320
johnny karate
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Hey, has anyone seen the Red Wave? I could have sworn it was around here just yesterday…
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